Thread Number: 23275
Vintage KitchenAid (Hobart), KDI-18 		[Down to Last]

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Post# 363081   7/10/2009 at 21:06 (5,396 days old) by rookie3001 ()        

Hello all -

I live in an apartment that is on the second floor of a house. The house has a lot of now vintage but then top of the line kitchen equipment, in cabinet and what not.

I was researching what dishwasher I had when I found your forum. It is a vintage KitchenAid (Hobart), KDI-18 and is the one pictured in the brochure as discussed in the archive link below.

Is this of interest to anyone? I need to replace it, it used to work well but now seems to function correctly but the dishes aren't as clean.

I'm in the NJ/NYC metro area if anyone is interested!

www.automaticwasher.org/TD/ARCHIV...

CLICK HERE TO GO TO rookie3001's LINK



Post# 363098 , Reply# 1   7/10/2009 at 22:45 (5,396 days old) by tlee618 ()        

IMHO it would be very wise for you to have it checked out to see why it isn't cleaning well. You will not find a new machine that you like as well as this KDI 18!!!!

Post# 363176 , Reply# 2   7/11/2009 at 10:19 (5,395 days old) by everythingold (Grand Rapids, Michigan)        

everythingold's profile picture
I fix appliances for a living and agree with tlee818. Buying a new dishwasher is a expensive and you won't be impressed. Often the KA's just need the filter cleaned out. I have all the parts you can imagine. Do yourself a favor. Fix it. matt

Post# 363187 , Reply# 3   7/11/2009 at 10:40 (5,395 days old) by volsboy1 (East Tenn Smoky mountains )        

volsboy1's profile picture
Trust me listen to these guys on here.I have used alot of new dishwasher's and ever sence 2007 and the new engergy star mandates came in these new dishwashers dont work and dont last.That dishwasher is one of the finest ever made and cleans&Dries in 50 Mins what now takes 5 hours or so to do.That machine is made so well that Hobart who owned Kitchenaid at that time uses that same pump in your dishwasher now in there commcerical machines.You can get all the parts for it.My Aunt spent 1500 bucks on a new Kitchenaid and its 4 months old and she is getting rid of it and spent a fortune on two new Miele dishwashers.Fix it and get some stainless steel for it if the color bugs ya.

Post# 363252 , Reply# 4   7/11/2009 at 15:29 (5,395 days old) by stevet (West Melbourne, FL)        
SImple problem..simpler fix!

 The most common pump problem on any Kithenaid of that type was the washarm support spindle and bushing. You make it sound like the dishes aren't coming out as clean as they used to so I would remove the washarm and check the lower white bushing and make sure it has not loosened up and moved up to block the water from getting into the lower washarm. They didn't have a very hefty attachment point and after this many years, it may have let loose. You may get lucky and can just pop it back into position and be done with it. If not, you can buy a new support assembly and if Whirlpool obsoleted it, many of us on here can supply you with one and anything else you may need.
As far as stainless panels are concerned, they are still available and will certainly upgrade the look of your machine.
Your machine has the trim kit on it so you probably have additional panels behind the one you see. They were usually white, black, almond and harvest wheat. The black ones are sharp looking and are still a desired color.
Check it out and let us know.
Here are some pics of my Mother in Law's 21 series with the stainless trim panels which slip right into where your current panels are. The control panel is different from yours but you can get the idea.

Post# 363253 , Reply# 5   7/11/2009 at 15:30 (5,395 days old) by stevet (West Melbourne, FL)        
another view

 These units do seem to look great in stainless, but then again you can't ruin a classic!

Post# 363531 , Reply# 6   7/12/2009 at 20:32 (5,394 days old) by rookie3001 ()        
Vintage KitchenAid (Hobart), KDI-18

Hrmm, thanks for the advice everybody. I had no idea.

What's the best way to contact someone in the NJ/NYC area who would know best how/what is needed on this unit?

Thanks again.

Post# 363636 , Reply# 7   7/13/2009 at 07:02 (5,393 days old) by volsboy1 (East Tenn Smoky mountains )        

volsboy1's profile picture
Take the filter out of the bottom and make sure it is clean.Then get a cup I use a tall cheap plastic cup and fill it 2/3 with white viniger.Then put the cup in right side up like it sit's on your table full of tea or what not in the top rack.Then load your washer and run it as it washes the glass will fill and the vinger will be used over time through the complete wash.The pump in that is SOO simple but minerals can build up in any D.W.The arm just lifts off and then the screen.That Dishwasher as a 1/2 Hp motor that pushes 40+ gallons a min,I just replaced a motor in my best friends Frigidare precision wash dishwasher and it use's a Aquarium powerhead motor that I put in my pocket. Here is a diagram of your pump that might help.

Post# 363762 , Reply# 8   7/13/2009 at 18:19 (5,393 days old) by rookie3001 ()        
Vintage KitchenAid (Hobart), KDI-18

Thanks again guys. Please forgive my newbie ignorance as I've never ventured inside a dishwasher... or appliance really.

I removed the spray arms and the suction strainer and gave those a cleaning.

But I've attached a picture, at where I am worried about venturing any further on my own.

The brown ring is a pool of water. Should that be draining, no? Should I remove the screws on the pump cover and keep going?

Is this something I can attempt on my own?

Thanks again!

Post# 363790 , Reply# 9   7/13/2009 at 20:22 (5,393 days old) by stevet (West Melbourne, FL)        
Check the ring!

 That wash arm support looks kind of tired. See the brass ring? Pull up on it and if the white plastic piece moves up then the support is bad. Just get another one and be done with it. It comes as a set of the top and bottom pieces and as the diagram above shows, it comes apart by removing the 4 screws that hold it all together and then remove the grey or black wash impeller.Just reassemble the pieces and you should be good to go assuming that the impeller isn't broken which would cause a drop in pump pressure and poor washing.

Judging from the picture, it almost looks like you have some steel wool coming out the side of the pump housing so maybe it is clogged up with debris of who knows what. So check the ring and bushing and if good, remove the top and see what is going on inside.

As far as the water goes, it should be nearly totally dry after pumping out on the drain cycle. You MUST make sure that the drain line is clear, and unblocked and that the sink drains well. If the drain is sluggish, the machine will not be able to pump all the water out. You can test this by removing the hose at the sink and letting it drain into a 5 gallon pail and then checking to see if the sump is dry. If it drains better, then your sink drain is clogged and needs to be fixed.
Also, the drain impellers on these pumps were improved by Hobart after they used them in the commercial WM5 series(now used on SR24 series)dishwashers and pump out more water so you may have to go that route as well if necessary.

BTW, you CANNOT buy this old style support anymore from Hobart. They want you to use the single arm style with the really heavy duty support and base. It is really quite costly so get the older style thru whirlpool or a local distributor.


Feel free to contact me if you get stuck. Email me if you need to and I will give you my phone number.
Actually that goes for anyone here who wants to call.
Steve

Post# 363803 , Reply# 10   7/13/2009 at 21:36 (5,393 days old) by andrewinorlando ()        

I think this part will solve all your problems, and it's cheap too!!! This is the whole wash arm support assembly....$15 on eBay.

CLICK HERE TO GO TO andrewinorlando's LINK on eBay


Post# 363974 , Reply# 11   7/14/2009 at 19:58 (5,392 days old) by stevet (West Melbourne, FL)        
you are slipping my good friend!

 Andrew, that washarm support will only fit the 16 and 17 series machines, not the 18 thru 20 series which our buddy here needs!

Post# 363980 , Reply# 12   7/14/2009 at 20:12 (5,392 days old) by rookie3001 ()        
Part needed?

 Thanks again.

Would you know the model / number of the part that I do need?

Post# 364021 , Reply# 13   7/14/2009 at 22:27 (5,392 days old) by stevet (West Melbourne, FL)        
No surprise Here!

 The part number you need is 4161480 which is the wash arm support top and the bottom is 4161427 and at sears.com they both show as discontinued. I will check one last time for you with my parts manager and see if we cant get one from one of the Hobart banches somewhere in the country. That part number is 185926. I will check and let you know.

Now dont despair, I am sure many of us have these in some box in our attics or basements or garages. I dont have brand new ones but have some good ones! So let me know what you find and want to do.
I will check back tomorrow.

Post# 364104 , Reply# 14   7/15/2009 at 09:16 (5,391 days old) by everythingold (Grand Rapids, Michigan)        

everythingold's profile picture
I have everything you could ever need for that machine. matt

Post# 364105 , Reply# 15   7/15/2009 at 09:18 (5,391 days old) by rookie3001 ()        

Hey Guys...

I tried a Google search with all of those part numbers and then with all the various keywords, but could not find any results.

Then I went to multiple dishwasher or appliance "parts websites", and all of these numbers do come up discontinued and unavailable.

I had ordered the incorrect part off eBay, but thankfully I was able to cancel the order.

Would there be any benefit of removing the pump cover just to take a look? As you guys instructed, the white ring that is enclosed by the brass ring does move slightly.

Thanks for all your kind help and advice! My landlord wants to know if this machine is coming out or not... I would like to save it if I can!

Post# 364420 , Reply# 16   7/16/2009 at 06:05 (5,390 days old) by stevet (West Melbourne, FL)        
Yes and no!

 Yes remove the cover and see what is going on underneath it and check that bushing ZI told you about.

Now for the record, there are absolutely none of the older style(your style) washarm supports available at any Hobart office in the country. They superceded them to the newer style single washarm in the early 90's. If you wanted to convert your machine over, it would cost you over 400 dollars.

As I mentioned, I have some good, used ones availabe as do others on the forum so that seems the only option.

But do take it apart. It could just be clogged up!

Post# 364452 , Reply# 17   7/16/2009 at 07:50 (5,390 days old) by rookie3001 ()        
Pump Cover Off

 Pic #1, pump cover off...

Post# 364453 , Reply# 18   7/16/2009 at 07:51 (5,390 days old) by rookie3001 ()        
Wash Impeller + Wash Pump Body off

 Pic #2, Wash Impeller + Wash Pump Body off...

Post# 364454 , Reply# 19   7/16/2009 at 07:52 (5,390 days old) by rookie3001 ()        
Drain Pump Cover Plate + Deflector ring off

 Pic #3, Drain Pump Cover Plate + Deflector ring off...

Post# 364456 , Reply# 20   7/16/2009 at 07:57 (5,390 days old) by rookie3001 ()        
This is where I stopped...

 Greetings all -

This is where I stopped, I couldn't seem to get the drain pump impeller out. Even so, i'm not quote sure what I'm looking at or for.

...pretty messy, eh? There was a lot of water that I soaked up along the process. And I gave some of the parts I did remove a cleaning.

Any suggestions? If you guys think a new pump cover would do the trick i'd be happy to buy one from you guys, but honestly I don't know.

I'm very thankful for your guys time and support. Thanks much, any advice appreciated.

Post# 364675 , Reply# 21   7/16/2009 at 21:54 (5,390 days old) by stevet (West Melbourne, FL)        
Someting looks fishy and probably smells as bad!

 Rookie,
In the picture of the wash impeller, it looks like the keyed washer that locks the wash pump impeller to the motor shaft is missing or out of position. Don't bother with the drain impeller, If it looks good and happens to be stuck, leave it alone. If it is not leaking..all the more reason not to touch it.
If I can attach this breakdown it more clearly shows how the pieces fit together. If the washer was not there or installed wrong, the impeller would not turn very well if at all and since the drain impeller is driven by the wash impeller(they are keyed to lock together)then you will not pump all the water out.

Have you checked that bushing yet? It looks like the water was spraying out between the housing halves which may have been caused by that bushing preventing the water from going into the wash arm. There really is a lot of pressure in there. And also check and make sure nothing is up inside the top support piece.
As far as the rust stains go, pick up some Zud powder cleanser and make a paste of it and rub it into the stains and let it set for a while. It contains Oxalic acid which will take the rust stains out. Do that when you have the pump and drain working so you can fill and rinse it better.

I might as well just add the link and you can see for yourself.
Again if you want to call, let me know
Steve

CLICK HERE TO GO TO stevet's LINK
Post# 365107 , Reply# 22   7/18/2009 at 07:35 (5,388 days old) by rookie3001 ()        
Hrmm....

 Ok, as for the bushing. Well, i'm not sure if it is good or bad really. If you pull the drain cover by its very higest point, i would say you could ever so slightly movie it up and down, maybe a milimeter. The brass ring aroung the white while it does move slightly doesn't really move into one position or another.

I tried holding the pump cover upside-down underneath the faucet and ran water through the holes, water was flowing through from the bottom and out the top.

When you say "it looks like the keyed washer that locks the wash pump impeller to the motor shaft is missing or out of position"... is this a problem?

Unfortunately the link you provided requires an account to access the info, so I could not see anything.



Post# 365134 , Reply# 23   7/18/2009 at 10:19 (5,388 days old) by stevet (West Melbourne, FL)        
sorry you couldnt see the picture

 I will fix that and send it to you. I forgot that I was signed on and it let me right in.
The keyed washer MUST be in place correctly or else the wash impeller wont be locked on to the motor shaft and then it won't lock on to the drain impeller. The shaft turns the wash impeller which in turn turns the drain impeller. The machine is draining probably only because the drain impeller is stuck to the shaft as you mentioned. I will post the breakdown here in a little while. Give you something to fiddle with today!

Post# 365527 , Reply# 24   7/19/2009 at 21:05 (5,387 days old) by stevet (West Melbourne, FL)        
Sorry to keep you waiting

 Here is the breakdown of the pump unit so you can see how it all fits together and how the keyed washer has to be installed.

I have seen service techs forget to place it properly and have the pump deliver next to no water at all, not to mention when they also replaced a shaft seal, the seal leaked like crazy because all the parts were not then pushed down properly to make the seal work. But don't worry in your case since you said the drain impeller is stuck! It should be fine as long as you don't damage it .
let us know how you make out.
Now lets see if I can port this diagram over to here!

Post# 365544 , Reply# 25   7/19/2009 at 21:42 (5,387 days old) by rookie3001 ()        
keyed washer?

 Thanks much. So, I have to assume the keyed washer is missing? Altho, I have no idea how. Is this a common or proprietary part? Would this part missing be the cause of the poor performance?

Post# 365545 , Reply# 26   7/19/2009 at 21:43 (5,387 days old) by rookie3001 ()        
oh...

 ...or am I missing the part that locks into it... hrm.

Post# 365556 , Reply# 27   7/19/2009 at 22:34 (5,387 days old) by stevet (West Melbourne, FL)        
if it isnt there, you need one!

 That part is the "KEY" to the whole thing working correctly.And YES, it is proprietary.
If you don't have it you need to get one. Hobart sells them as part number 81492 and is not very expensive.
Had I known you were possibly missing parts, I would have scanned the part numbers for you.Check what you have there to see if you have all the parts shown that are numbered from 1 thru 5. There should be 2 of part number 3 which is a spring washer. This keeps pressure on the hardware tro prevent it from coming loose. Let me know what you need and we can send it if you don't have a local office near you.
You can find one by calling 1-888-4HOBART and follow the prompts to find an office by name and they will connect you right to the nearest office. Let me know if you need more part numbers. Please dont tell them it is for a Kitchenaid machine.
Contact me FIRST for the part numbers otherwise you will get an incredible run around. Just remember. It was nearly 25 years ago that WP bought KA and not many guys at Hobart these days know that KA was part of our history!
Steve

Post# 365978 , Reply# 28   7/21/2009 at 16:35 (5,385 days old) by rookie3001 ()        
What am I missing?

 Greetings again -

OK - I may have called the part that I am possibly missing the wrong name.

I have checked parts numbered 1-5, those I have.

In the pictures posted above between "pic 2" and "pic 3", I removed the Drain Pump Cover Plate and screws (parts numbered 26 and 27) and deflector ring (part 8).

So my problem appears to be that I did not remove or find any parts that look like numbers 9, 10, 11 or 12.

So in my "pic 3" when I removed the Drain Pump Cover Plate + deflector ring, all I saw was the metal cylinder jutting out and the part hand labeled in the diagram as "this locks into wash impeller".

Does this make sense?

Post# 365981 , Reply# 29   7/21/2009 at 16:49 (5,385 days old) by rookie3001 ()        
OK OK, forgive the newbie...

 I was able to remove parts 9-10-11, they were just caked in there under the dried white stuff.

But that "part that locks into the wash impeller" does not want to come out and I don't want to break it.

So, where does that leave me now?

Post# 366068 , Reply# 30   7/21/2009 at 22:15 (5,385 days old) by stevet (West Melbourne, FL)        
Like I said!

 Leave it alone! If you force it, you will probably break it. It forms the the upper half of the shaft seal holding the ceramic portion and the lower seal is mounted in the bottom plastic housing which is the carbon part of it.
Try to reassemble the parts in the proper sequence and see if the top impeller locks into place. Many times the person putting it together forgets to line up the flats on the motor shaft with the flats on the keyed washer and they dont get washing action.
If you put everything back correctly and the motor runs, then you should be pumping water.

Let us know
Steve

Post# 366115 , Reply# 31   7/22/2009 at 02:12 (5,384 days old) by spankomatic (Ukiah,CA)        
Just a suggestion....

 spankomatic's profile picture
Since you have gone this far.... Make sure the impeller is in good shape. Broken glass and bones are good for chewing those up. I would hate to see you put it all back together and find out the impeller was part of the problem.

Jim


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