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Thread Number: 26125
Another FL or back to Top Load |
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| Post# 401022 , Reply# 1 12/21/2009 at 09:53 (5,229 days old) by mayguy (Minnesota) | ||
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I can put more in my FridGEmore front loader than I did with my old Maytag Top loader. I think my front loader cleaned better than the TL washer I've used in the past. I also did the numbers on our water use, We save almost 12,000 gallons going from TL to HE. | ||
Post# 401062 , Reply# 2 12/21/2009 at 12:19 (5,229 days old) by volvoguy87  (Cincinnati, OH) |
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Top. | ||
| Post# 401077 , Reply# 3 12/21/2009 at 13:00 (5,229 days old) by toggleswitch2 () | ||
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One of each. Naturally. Both have their benfits and drawbacks. | ||
| Post# 401094 , Reply# 4 12/21/2009 at 14:38 (5,229 days old) by ronhic (Canberra, Australia) | ||
Blimey...
...having never used an American front load machine, it is difficult to comprehend to some degree, but even little 4kg (9lb) Hoovers will happily take a full sheet set and a duvet cover.... ...and I tend to wash a full QS sheet set and a duvet cover on the cottons quick 60c (hot) cycle in my machine....no issues at all...and it's not a big capacity like a duet | ||
| Post# 401106 , Reply# 7 12/21/2009 at 15:41 (5,229 days old) by toggleswitch2 () | ||
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sizes I had heard that in Greece they like our Queen sized sheets. Most similar to what is used there. CLICK HERE TO GO TO toggleswitch2's LINK | ||
| Post# 401107 , Reply# 8 12/21/2009 at 15:44 (5,229 days old) by toggleswitch2 () | ||
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Wow. I'm learning English from Italians! LOL Actually it's high-level English derived from the Greek..... (ducks and runs) CLICK HERE TO GO TO toggleswitch2's LINK | ||
| Post# 401112 , Reply# 9 12/21/2009 at 15:57 (5,229 days old) by dj-gabriele () | ||
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Polemic? :D hahaha That was easy for me, it's similar to our "polemico" that has the same meaning. | ||
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Post# 401116 , Reply# 10 12/21/2009 at 16:18 (5,229 days old) by revvinkevin (Tinseltown - Shakey Town - La-La Land) |
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What's wrong with this picture? Hi Leon, I don't know why you aren't taking advantage of the larger front loaders capacity (compared to a top loader) and loading with a full, or mostly full load. Also, why would you dry only ONE sheet in the dryer at a time? That is SUCH a waste of resources, money, etc. Of course it's ultimately it's your choice, but going back to a top loader is not going to give you the ability to wash more items per load. Also, just because a top load machine uses more water does not make your cloths any cleaner. Granted the rinsing can be better the some FL machines. I have a 12 year old Frigidaire Gallery FL washer which has a smaller tub capacity (3.1 cu. ft. vs. 3.34 for the Neptune and 3.8 for the Duet) and I wash a set of Cal King sheets and 4 king pillow cases, all in one load, every week and they ALWAYS come out clean. I also dry all those in one load too and never have a problem. One time just for grins I washed the Cal King sheets W/pillow cases AND a queen size sheet set W/ two pillow cases, at the same time, ALL ONE LOAD! I also dried all those in one load too. They all came out nice and fresh and clean!! They did dry fine but BOY was the dryer FULL, right to the top! My point? Load the machine as it should be loaded, put some cloths in it! | ||
| Post# 401124 , Reply# 12 12/21/2009 at 16:53 (5,229 days old) by hoover1100 (U.K.) | ||
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I meant to say extortionately priced in the U.S. posted too fast :) | ||
| Post# 401159 , Reply# 14 12/21/2009 at 20:01 (5,229 days old) by mrb627 (Buford, GA) | ||
You are right Norfolk
I totally agree with you Norfolk. The Duet that I had before the LG both had the same quality. About 2/3rds full was the fullest you could load the machines and still expect good results. And you must use the prewash to get the best results. I think it is a combination of the tilted tub and the limited amount of water in the machine. I still don't understand this race to use the least amount of water in the machine. Then they want you to run a cleaning cycle every 30 loads. A cleaning cycle that uses an enormous amount of water. I think the cleaning cycle is a required as a result of a combination of things. 1) Low water temperatures. 2) Using too little detergent so that soils are not held in suspension. 3) Plastic outer tubs. 4) Lack of water for rinsing. So, for me, the first requirment for a FL or TL washer is NO PLASTIC OUTER TUB! Which knocks all the mainstream manufacturers. Even the big Mieles don't qualify. Only Speed Queen, the Mini-Mieles, and the Asko minis are left. Malcolm | ||
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Post# 401228 , Reply# 18 12/22/2009 at 00:04 (5,229 days old) by launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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So my question : are agitator/impeller toploaders able to cl
Yes, provided one knows what one is doing. Just means thinking a little backward instead of modern way. Have washed everything from badly soiled kitchen linens, to white socks worn indoors as slippers so long they ranged from grey to "yuck", and everything comes out whiter than white. Top loading washing machines by their nature have more to do with the old "dolly stick" washing of yesterday and the "pounding on a rock" action mimiced by front loaders. To clean badly stained laundry properly in a top loader, one needs to do women did years ago; first a warm or cool wash soak, followed by a hot wash, all with proper detergents/soaps. The cool to warm pre-wash or pre-soak carries off a major part of the dirt, loosens soils and stains, and also prevents same from being set by hot water. The hot wash shifts whatever soils and stains are left. As for bleaching in a top loader, most use LCB, but one or two washes (as in pre-soak or pre-wash, then main wash), with a good detergent containing advanced oxygen bleaching system (such as Tide with Bleach), will shift even the most stubborn stains. Indeed a very good enzyme detergent alone, without bleaches of any sort can and will shift most stains,especially if given enough time to do the job. Certain stains are always pre-treated regardless how I am doing the wash, top or front load or twin tub. Blood stains will shift easily without bleach if they are pre-treated with a good enzyme based stain product. Old and or set in blood stains may require spot treatment first with enzyme product then oxygen bleach, either way they are gone. Problem with top loading washing machine results, lies not as much with the design of the washer, but how most do their laundry in the things. Bunging in a load of clothing, setting the machine to "hot" and hoping for the best. simply will not do. As for front loading washing machines being more gentle on wash than top loaders; well yes that was true when the former actually used more than a cup full of water to wash clothes. By and large today most machines barely wet the load down and to compenstate for decreased water use, have exteneded wash cycles. So now you have laundry being beaten about itself and against the wash tub for almost an hour in some cases, just for the "wash" cycle. Enough of that often enough and you will have badly worn items. | ||
| Post# 401269 , Reply# 21 12/22/2009 at 04:47 (5,228 days old) by mrb627 (Buford, GA) | ||
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Clean Washer Cycle
Even Miele has fallen into the "You must clean the inside of the machine once a month" with their Clean Washer Cycle. A process that doesn't seem neccessary when the outer tub is stainless steel or porcelain. It isn't a durability issue with the "plastic" outer tub but more that gunk will cling to it. Seems every time I crack open a Whirlpool DD washer that is more than a couple years old, the upper portion of the outer wash tub is black with gunk. YUCK! Malcolm | ||
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Post# 401272 , Reply# 22 12/22/2009 at 06:21 (5,228 days old) by launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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Actually, Well No
Tumble drying is *NOT* the same as laundring clothing in a front loading washing machine. With a tumble dryer, unless overly loaded, air is supposed to move around and through the clothing, this tis what dries them. This air to an extent does provide some cushioning, though one supposes if someone crammed a dryer full there would be heavy wear on clothing. Dryer drums are also much larger for load sizes than H-Axis washing machines. This is one reason why "combo" units normally do very poorly when it comes to drying. The tub is just too small for all but a small load of laundry to move freely, thus allowing air to get at the laundry, and dry it. As for Miele... Read reports on both sides of the pond in consumer magazines. Though probably streets ahead of some other brands, Miele has had it's share of problems, especially with units sold/shipped to the North American market. Also for the dear cost of parts and call out costs, Miele appliances darn well better give good service. One or two out of warranty calls and one just may be better off buying a new (but lower priced) unit. Rinsing: My little Whirlpool does give quite good results, even with only three spray rinses and one deep rinse. Again loading is key and proper use of chemicals. I always do two rinses in a top loader anyway, but that's me for you. Have also done several spin rinses in a Hoover TT, and that did well enough that water was clear when laundry was either bunged into the main tub for a deep rinse, or into the Miele for same. Will give you that today's top loading washing machines are by and large near rubbish, with perhaps the exception of SQ and a few others. Restrictions on energy use and such have robbed the units of what they need, large amounts of water to wash and rinse laundry. Of course the alternative is to do smaller loads, but Americans as a lot tend to wish to get wash day over with quickly. No sense in having a "large" or "super" capacity top loader if you can only do "medium" wash loads. L | ||
| Post# 401283 , Reply# 24 12/22/2009 at 06:57 (5,228 days old) by mrb627 (Buford, GA) | ||
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Clean Washer Cycle
Whether or not you believe it is uneccessary or not, the manufacturer, Miele, has gone out of their way to add that cycle to the latest models. The SMEG is CUTE, I'll give you that. The Speed Queen Imperial is all stainless steel inside and out and doesn't require a clean machine cycle either. Malcolm | ||
| Post# 401287 , Reply# 25 12/22/2009 at 07:08 (5,228 days old) by danmantn (Tennessee) | ||
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| Post# 401303 , Reply# 27 12/22/2009 at 08:11 (5,228 days old) by mrb627 (Buford, GA) | ||
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Clean Cycle
Seems to me that only machines with plastic outer tubs have this clean cycle. This includes high efficiency top loaders as well. And just because the machine doesn't smell doesn't mean that the machine is clean. The Whirlpool DD machines that I have worked on that are GROSS inside don't smell bad. Malcolm | ||
| Post# 401310 , Reply# 30 12/22/2009 at 08:32 (5,228 days old) by favorit () | ||
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Hi Matt, if i'm not wrong i read on the german forum that american mieles outertub is fiberglass as in the latest continental Miele toploaders (W600 series) | ||
| Post# 401313 , Reply# 31 12/22/2009 at 08:44 (5,228 days old) by mrb627 (Buford, GA) | ||
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It's just yet more marketing ploys as far as I can see.
Exactly. It is bad marketing. And poor/cheapened manufacturing. Why is this concept of cleaning your washing machine so new? Did the machines of the 70's and 80's need cleaning? It would seem to me that if a washing machine is doing its job, the dirt and crud should be washed away. Not stuck to the inside of the machine. I mean if the machine cannot get the dirt out of itself, how is it getting it all out of my clothes? So where is the fault? Lack of water? Lack of detergent? Lack of temperature? Poor machine design? Poor detergents? Malcolm | ||
| Post# 401323 , Reply# 33 12/22/2009 at 09:23 (5,228 days old) by danmantn (Tennessee) | ||
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A friend of mine refuses to wash in ANYTHING but cold. She lives in Alaska--I can only imagine what her machine looks like. So, I keep hearing that powder is the way to go. Personally I prefer powder most of the time. But what is magical about the powder and a clean washer? I would assume powders are more abrasive on clothing...but not sure about the machine. I think most modern day detergents are horrible. I'm very selective in what I use as most make my clothes feel waxy or actually make them smell worse (liquid Tide and liquid Gain). Both of those have the cheapest smelling perfumes. I use to be a Gain fan, but not anymore. | ||
| Post# 401334 , Reply# 35 12/22/2009 at 10:20 (5,228 days old) by danmantn (Tennessee) | ||
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| Post# 401355 , Reply# 37 12/22/2009 at 11:16 (5,228 days old) by mrb627 (Buford, GA) | ||
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Detergent Manufacturers
I think it is wrong to lay the blame with the detergent manufacturers. They don't get to decide how the machine that they are used in will work. How much water. How many rinses. I believe the machines are at fault. Of course we are now beginning to see the addition of better rinse options on the newer model machines. Perhaps we are headed in the right direction. Malcolm | ||
| Post# 401361 , Reply# 39 12/22/2009 at 11:44 (5,228 days old) by hoover1100 (U.K.) | ||
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but a good rinse won't stop mould and gunk from building up due to low temp washing and use of liquid detergent. If people weren't told they could wash in cold and use liquid all the time, there would be less of an issue. Matt | ||
| Post# 401362 , Reply# 40 12/22/2009 at 11:49 (5,228 days old) by mrb627 (Buford, GA) | ||
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Liquid Detergents? | ||
| Post# 401368 , Reply# 44 12/22/2009 at 13:07 (5,228 days old) by toploader1984 () | ||
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is it possible all of the problems with american detergents are because they do not contain phosphates anymore? | ||
| Post# 401370 , Reply# 45 12/22/2009 at 13:17 (5,228 days old) by dj-gabriele () | ||
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European detergents DO NOT contain phosphates and have no problems! | ||
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Post# 401371 , Reply# 46 12/22/2009 at 13:23 (5,228 days old) by launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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LCB & Front Loaders
Laundromat washing machines in the USA see far more chlorine bleach (front loaders of course), than anything at home and yet their parts do not decay. Why? Simply because they are not built and designed on the cheap. Like it or not Americans are wedded to chlorine bleach and aren't likely to give the stuff up, so washing machine makers have had to find ways to work around the problem. MieleUSA, who fought a long and hard battle against the trend, in the end finally just gave up the ghost and submitted. There is no getting around the fact that front loading washing machines cost more to design and produce than top loaders. More still if they are to last longer than the few years (if that), one sees with most current offerings. Just compare the cheapest offering from say Wascomat to a Duet or some such. If it weren't for governments pushing energy savings, most Americans probably wouldn't bother with front loaders. Worse, just when they started to drift over to the other camp. stronger still energy restrictions were imposed on all washers, even front loaders to the point they are just as "damaging" to laundry as some top loaders. | ||
| Post# 401372 , Reply# 47 12/22/2009 at 13:30 (5,228 days old) by mrb627 (Buford, GA) | ||
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I still do not believe the problem is with the detergents. The machine is usually to poor a rinser; unable to flush the dirt and detergents away. This in turn causes the belief that you must use less which makes the detergent less able to hold soil in a solution and be flushed away which eventually leads to a soiled and smelly washer. Having a heating element is a double edged sword. You want the water hot enough to excite the enzymes in the detergent, but get it too hot and the enzymes die and the detergent will foam excessively. This in turn causes poor rinsing. And can damage your machine as well. | ||
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Post# 401374 , Reply# 48 12/22/2009 at 13:49 (5,228 days old) by launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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"DO NOT contain phosphates "
Oh yes some of them do, though they are becoming far and few between. In some areas of Europe, there simply isn't any other way for a powdered detergent to deal with water that is hard as a rock, without phosphates. Hard water is even worse for European front loaders as the lime scale and other mineral deposits will coat and eventually corrode the heating elements. One reason for the increase in liquid and gel detergents in Europe,is the surfactants used in those products are not affected by water hardness, thus eliminating need for phosphates. Such systems also use citric acid as well, instead of STPP. As the EU has Zeolites fixed in it's cross hairs, look to either a larger share of liquids/gels or perhaps more phosphates (where allowed). | ||
| Post# 401386 , Reply# 52 12/22/2009 at 14:13 (5,228 days old) by mrb627 (Buford, GA) | ||
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Older machines
I have never run into an older machine that had a stinky mould problem like the current machines of today. As a matter of fact, I had never even heard of having a mould problem until these uber front loaders hit the market. But you make it sound like your machines are no better than ours. That's good to know.... Malcolm | ||
| Post# 401391 , Reply# 53 12/22/2009 at 14:24 (5,228 days old) by hoover1100 (U.K.) | ||
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Only if.. They aren't properly used. Try running an old Maytag or Kenmore with only cold water and no detergent other than a cheapy liquid for a good few months. I'm certain you would see gunk if you opened it up. Matt | ||
| Post# 401397 , Reply# 54 12/22/2009 at 14:44 (5,228 days old) by ronhic (Canberra, Australia) | ||
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Detergents in combination with fabric conditioner AND cooler washing temperatures will cause a revolting grey buildup in machines.... Liquid detergent has a higher 'fat' content than powder and less 'harsh' chemicals which is why, though I can't find the reference, it in particular in combination with heavier softeners contributes to this problem. Pity we can't run a test with 2 identical machines etc and run one with powder and conditioner and the other with liquid and conditioner. Fisher and Paykel even acknowledge it in the owners manuals and have applied the term 'scrud' to it. Refer page 30. CLICK HERE TO GO TO ronhic's LINK | ||
| Post# 401407 , Reply# 55 12/22/2009 at 15:20 (5,228 days old) by mrb627 (Buford, GA) | ||
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Actually I have
I grew up in a household that had cold water hookup to the washer only. Lived in that house for 20+ years and never had an issue with gunk in our washing machine. Used a variety of detergents, usually whatever was cheapest. Still no gunk in our top loader and our clothes were clean. So, what were you saying? Malcolm | ||
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Post# 401428 , Reply# 58 12/22/2009 at 17:39 (5,228 days old) by appnut (TX) |
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perpetuating cold water washes even more | ||
| Post# 401430 , Reply# 59 12/22/2009 at 17:45 (5,228 days old) by autowasherfreak () | ||
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I use one of each. I wash blankets, jeans, and pillows in the front loader, and sheets, towels, and clothes in the Maytag top loader. Towels washed in the Maytag get an extra spin in the front loader. | ||
| Post# 401438 , Reply# 60 12/22/2009 at 18:10 (5,228 days old) by ronhic (Canberra, Australia) | ||
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So, what were you saying?
What I am saying is that Fisher and Paykel acknowledge there is a problem with fabric conditioners and detergent when they come into contact with each other - so much so that they make light of it in their owners manual for top load machines. It doesn't get a mention in their front load machines. The vast majority of machines today use polymer based outer tubs which seem to attract the gunk...they certainly don't allow it to wash off as easily as enamel or s/steel. Couple this with less water at lower temperatures and you have the potential for a problem. Add into this the generally more 'gentle' chemical nature of liquid detergents compared to powders and the problem is exacerbated. Additionally, I will almost guarantee that people in general have not reduced the amount of conditioner they are using in HE machines compared to 20yrs ago. Most will pour it direct into the cup in the agitator or into the section of the drawer without a second thought. Well less water means less needed, but it is like banging your head against a brick wall trying to educate the public. Oh, and powders are far far more popular here than liquids outselling them by at least 2:1. Up until I found this site I had never heard of anyone having a stinky front load machine and only knew of the 'grey gunk' - scrud - from people who had used the following in combination: - cold water - liquid detergents - fabric conditioner. ..and generally in a top load machine. I first experienced it in 1995 when I washed my (white) work shirts in a friends hoover top loader....I turned the hot tap on and put powdered Omomatic in...when I took them out, they were covered in grey globules of sticky goo..... Turns out she was a cold water washer with liquid detergents AND fabric conditioner. I, and many others on here, wash in warm/hot water. My mother doesn't go lower than 30c and I generally don't either. Cold water washing is something that Australians have done, with increasing incidence, for 20-30yrs but mainly in top load machines as most European front loaders sold here only recently started offering a cold option and one of the benefits of a front load machine was you could warm/hot wash with only a small amount of hot water/impact on your electric bill compared to a top load machine - though I am not trying to inflame that debate, bare with me... Combine this with the use of powdered detergents and warm/hot washes in front load machines and you have next to no incidence of 'stinky washer' as liquid detergents have really only started to become available, on our market, for front load machines over the last 10yrs or so....but at least 75% of the market is still powder/front loaders. Now with top load machines, the majority of washing (with an increasing incidence), has been cold water and with powder. I would have to ring a washing machine repairer to find out, but I would bet that there is an increase rate of gunk in these machines when fabric conditioner is used in conjunction with cold water and liquid detergents... | ||
| Post# 401439 , Reply# 61 12/22/2009 at 18:12 (5,228 days old) by ronhic (Canberra, Australia) | ||
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Oh and ... | ||
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Post# 401443 , Reply# 62 12/22/2009 at 18:27 (5,228 days old) by launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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When Miele decided to no longer to fight the USA trend for LCB, they had to change the outer tub material from the SS they were previously using. One, they could go with another grade of SS, say one commonly found in commercial and laundromat washing machines, which can withstand repeated and years of exposure to LCB, or follow the lead of many USA washer makers, and go with some sort of "plastic". Enamel on porcelian wash tubs are expensive to produce, especially when done well enough not to rust for say 20 or so years. Such tubs are also not the most environmentally friendly to produce as well, IIRC; even today much of that work happens on parts made outside of the USA, then shipped. Really good enamel on porcelain tubs would not only often out last their warranty, but often the washer as well, long before becoming rusted out. Plastic tubs offered top loading washer makers, and then front loaders an inexpensive material when compared to better grades of SS, that would not rust and could stand up to repeated LCB use. | ||
| Post# 401512 , Reply# 64 12/23/2009 at 04:46 (5,227 days old) by ronhic (Canberra, Australia) | ||
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Toploader1984... | ||
| Post# 401525 , Reply# 65 12/23/2009 at 07:21 (5,227 days old) by mrb627 (Buford, GA) | ||
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Spin-Drain
It sure seems that a machine that does a spin/drain is more self cleaning than a machine that does a neutral drain. Neutral drains allow soils to cling to the outer wash basket. Of course, the best machine is probably a solid tub machine because once the dirty water is thrown from the wash tub, it can never cross contaminate the following fill. Malcolm | ||
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