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Thread Number: 26282
Toploaders? |
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| Post# 403428 1/2/2010 at 17:20 (5,220 days old) by aquacycle (West Yorkshire, UK) | ||
Ok, so I'm very sorry to bring up this same argument again. But having spent a few hours on Youtube looking at US toploader machines, I have to ask what the appeal in them is. I mean, I understand they hold a lot and are quick. But they don't do anything. You clothes just bob around in (huge amounts) of water and detergent for a bit, then get bobbed around in cold water and then spun. There is no real washing action. It's like washing your dishes by just leaving them stood in a sink full of water for an hour, and then standing them to dry. I've attached a YouTube video - apologies if this belongs to someone on the forum - that I think demonstrates my point. I know that toploaders are supposed to agitate, but there doesn't seem to be much agitating going on to be honest. And with the amount of water and detergent they use, they can't be cheap to run. Some other opinions would be most welcome on this, because so far, I am really not feeling the toploader love.
CLICK HERE TO GO TO aquacycle's LINK | ||
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| Post# 403430 , Reply# 1 1/2/2010 at 17:22 (5,220 days old) by aquacycle (West Yorkshire, UK) | ||
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Here is a link to Comet UK website, showing the rating they've given a US Maytag toploader. A being the highest, F being the lowest. To put this in perspective, I've never seen a washing machine with any ratings below C.
CLICK HERE TO GO TO aquacycle's LINK | ||
| Post# 403439 , Reply# 2 1/2/2010 at 17:56 (5,220 days old) by mark_wpduet (Lexington KY) | ||
Some TL washers have wash actions better than others. But they all work as to pull clothes from the top to the bottom and back up (called rollover). I grew up with a Kenmore cruel action agitator washer that lasted for years and got our DIRTY clothes VERY clean. Some say this particular washer destroys clothes but I don't ever remember this happening in our case. Our particular TL washer didn't spin drain (unfortunately) .....but it was still a great washer and lasted from about 24 years
CLICK HERE TO GO TO mark_wpduet's LINK | ||
| Post# 403440 , Reply# 3 1/2/2010 at 18:02 (5,220 days old) by aquacycle (West Yorkshire, UK) | ||
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Hi Mark, thanks for the input :) Much appreciated. I can certainly see the difference between the 2 here and can imagine your Kenmore having better results. But still, all I see are clothes swimming around in water, and not much agitation going on. This is agitation. CLICK HERE TO GO TO aquacycle's LINK | ||
Post# 403441 , Reply# 4 1/2/2010 at 18:06 (5,220 days old) by pulsator  (Saint Joseph, MI) |
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In most US topload washers, the real "agitation" occurs at the bottom of the tub where the agitator's base and largest fins are. The auger at the top just helps to move the clothes from the top back down to the agitator's base where the scrubbing occurs. It's hard to see the scrubbing action without the water level being set to low.
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| Post# 403442 , Reply# 5 1/2/2010 at 18:07 (5,220 days old) by aquacycle (West Yorkshire, UK) | ||
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and this is a different kind of agitation. If you compare this with the the first video I posted and with the one you sent me, surely anyone can see which one would have the better wash results?
CLICK HERE TO GO TO aquacycle's LINK | ||
| Post# 403443 , Reply# 6 1/2/2010 at 18:18 (5,220 days old) by aquacycle (West Yorkshire, UK) | ||
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Pulsator...
that may be the case. But I haven't seen any evidence yet of the clothes rotating vertically through the water as well as around the drum to pull them down to the bottom of the tub. In every video I've seen, they just seem to go round and round in the water. We had a Maytag TL and matching dryer at a previous job. It never handled washing towels, slide sacks (don't ask)and seat covers particularly well and a lot of them ended up very stained because the washing machine was cleaning them properly. I thought this just might have something to do with that model being, well, a bit shit - I suppose every brand has had good and bad models - but every other TL I've seen just does the same thing that did. Needless to say, the Miele Little Giant that replaced it did a much better job. I'm sorry if it seems I'm being cynical, but I still don't see the appeal.
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| Post# 403445 , Reply# 7 1/2/2010 at 18:41 (5,220 days old) by ronhic (Canberra, Australia) | ||
I also grew up....
....with a top load washer and we certainly had clean clothes - I inherited my clean clothes mantra from my mother They are, or at least were, very reliable, though consumer magazine feedback has now narrowed this to within a couple of percentage points. i.e. There's nothing in it now. From a repairers point of view, they also tend to be easy to work on with generally very good access, much of it from the front, which is something that most front loaders don't offer with most being serviced from the rear (Miele excepted). From a 'clean' point of view, they can certainly do that but it is interesting to note the washing practices of many/most Top load users to that of many/most front load users. Some of this is also North America V's European washing practices. In many cases, Top load users soak, use various additives AND cholorine bleach to ensure thorough removal of soil....et voila The above, minus the bleach, was certainly my mothers routine and you can add in there 'hard to shift stains hit with a hand scrub with Sunlight soap' too. In most cases, Front load users might 'spray' collar and/or cuff but then just bung it in their machine with the appropriate powder....et voila. Actual wash time is definately faster in a Top loader (anything up to 75% faster), but then there may be the additional time where washing is soaking or effectively being 'prepped' to wash. But even the water concious machines of today still use substantially more to achieve the same results as a European Front loader. ...and there are other factors to consider too... - Culturally, people in North America tend to do multiple washes sequentially AND run them through a tumble dryer. - Most Europeans tend to spread washing over a week or wash at night to take advantage of lower electricity rates etc. and consider also that many hang their washing out or up inside on airers and you realise that there is only so much space which limits how much washing you can do in one hit - longer cycle times don't matter when you can only dry so much at a time. There are many other factors I'm sure, but ultimately, it is horses for courses. What I WOULD like to know is the actual 'useable' capacity of the machines that people use in a format that is understandable by the rest of the world. The 'cu ft' measurement system is not a good indication of capacity compared to pounds or Kilos. So, my North American friends, how about doing an experiment or 2 for 'the rest of the world' and, based on YOUR usage of YOUR machines, tell us how much you actually wash in them in pounds... Here's what I suggest.... - Fill machine as high as you would do to do a FULL Load with highest water level...small and larger items. - Remove items to a basket and weigh using the bathroom scales and yourself... - Tell us the difference between you and you + clothes... It would be good if several people had the same machines or same make/capacity but different model- we could get an average then. It would then be useful if those of US that use EUROPEAN designed machines i.e. 60cm/24" cabinet width front loaders, did similar so we could compare our rated capacity to that which we actually use.... | ||
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Post# 403449 , Reply# 8 1/2/2010 at 18:59 (5,220 days old) by dadoes (TX, U.S. of A.) |
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 AquaCycle, if the clothes aren't rotating vertically through the wash basket .. what do you suppose is happening to the various pieces of clothing that get pulled down at the top around the agitator barrel, then come back up around the outside perimeter of the wash basket? The main wash action takes place at the agitator's base where the fins are oscillating back and forth. The base of the agitator in the first video you linked is oscillating at 180 strokes per minute. The upper spiral/auger section is linked to the base by a cam that rotates it only when the base turns clockwise. CLICK HERE TO GO TO dadoes's LINK | ||
| Post# 403453 , Reply# 9 1/2/2010 at 19:18 (5,220 days old) by aquacycle (West Yorkshire, UK) | ||
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ronhic...
I wasn't meaning to imply that a toploader does not clean anything, just that maybe that other methods i.e frontloaders or twin tubs do a more efficient job? My point was not necessarily about the capacity of the machine. I did mention in my first post that I can see the appeal regarding the large amounts of washing that can be done in one go. It was more to do with the performance of the machine. Not to say it is not washing the clothes at all, but just how efficiently it's doing it. It seems to use so much water and so much detergent (not an economical, or cheap way of going about your laundry) and still not really doing the best possible job. Surely, everyone in the world wants the same thing from an appliance - efficiency, reliability, ease of use, reasonable price. And really, with a TL machine, I think that people are only getting 3/4 of the deal. Maybe only half the deal if they get an unreliable brand.
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| Post# 403456 , Reply# 10 1/2/2010 at 19:36 (5,220 days old) by paulc (Edinburgh, Scotland) | ||
The wash performance test used to give machine performance ratings are tested on the machines 60deg cotton wash. The US T/L's sold here do not have heaters so a 60deg wash is unlikely to be performed in the test. Also are they using a detergent designed for that type of machine or using the correct ammount of euro detergent for the quantity of water the T/L uses? These could all factor in the Maytag getting rated "G" for washing.
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Post# 403469 , Reply# 12 1/2/2010 at 23:13 (5,220 days old) by appnut (TX) |
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And Kelly, I"m just the opposit. I feel like my Fridgemore does a far better job of cleaning than any toploader I've ever owned or used and far more gentle on fibers than a top loader. For the past 3 years I've had the machine, I pretty much don't worry about stains or having to tkae time (waste time) searching each suspected article for stains. I simply add some Biz with the detergent and off I go. Doing whites isn't as laborous as it once was. Cold prewash with Biz and hot wash with detergent and Oxiclean. My clothes are lasting longer and my towels aren't nearly as frayed.
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| Post# 403500 , Reply# 14 1/3/2010 at 03:41 (5,220 days old) by strongenough78 (California) | ||
I've found I've got better results from top loaders than front. Especially with my whites. I do use a front loader from time to time for ultra bulky things like heavy coats or large comforters. Basically things that aren't very soiled. I just washed 2 of my brothers very filthy heavy denim jackets in a commercial Maytag top loader. He uses them for deer hunting. I was VERY happy with the results. Also, on those Maytag's, they actually had 2 rinse cycles! I had used these machines before but never noticed. When it started what I thought was the final spin, there was still 10 minutes left on the count down. And I thought that was a bit long, til it stopped spinning and started filling again. So I agree with the other top loader fans on here. I'm not knocking the front loaders, but I'll always own a top loader. Agitators are just so much fun to watch!
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| Post# 403525 , Reply# 17 1/3/2010 at 07:46 (5,220 days old) by autowasherfreak () | ||
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If and when my Frigidaire kicks the bucket, I think it will probably be my last front loader, unless I can find a vintage front loader that actually uses some water. | ||
| Post# 403526 , Reply# 18 1/3/2010 at 07:52 (5,220 days old) by autowasherfreak () | ||
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If I can afford it I wouldn't mind having a Speed Queen front loader. 
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Post# 403553 , Reply# 21 1/3/2010 at 10:07 (5,220 days old) by chestermikeuk (Rainhill *Home of the RailwayTrials* Merseyside,UK) |
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Hhmmmm
Bit of a bold question Chris, no need to be sorry and no argument required...what you want is a discussion about the "merits of using these types of machines"....having used both I can understand the questions / issues on both sides of the water...but as has been said whatever you have and are using you will quickly adapt to how each machine works and get good results, its when you dont undertand and observe the code that inferiour results can ensue!!! There is a massive drive at the moment by manufacturers and and detergent companies to give the customer better "Education & Training" to do with how machines work and getting the best reults out of them with the right detegent for the job etc..am the first to admit there is a lot more to be done as well!!! P & G Tech Centre in Newcastle have just about a model of every main type of washing machine from all over the world in their testing labs, they also replicate the same conditions as well, as in humidity rooms and water hardness etc...so they can obtain a likeness in similar conditions, machines are top loaders,as used in US & Middle East..front loaders from UK, EU, Japan, Korea, Asia Pacific, twinnies from Saudi Arabia etc... BUT what they cant get very easily is replicated customer conditions & results!! I asked the question Well, if you want testers look no further than the guys from AW...I was amazed at the answer...That sounds great in theory but as you all would be "In The Know About Doing Laundry" you would scue the results...I was a little taken aback but thinking about it I could understand..we have the knowledge and ability to "Adapt" to laundry conditions...although I did say, yes but even I didnt notice the new dosage on the latest packs and thought it was the new VZug that was giving me too much foam, when in effect it was me!!!There you go!!! motto "Read Detergent Doses & Get To Know Your Machine" | ||
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Post# 403633 , Reply# 23 1/3/2010 at 14:57 (5,219 days old) by launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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Don't Blame Manufacturers
But the US government for sticking it's oars in for the sake of energy "savings". Expect things to get worse for all manner of major appliances as the Obama administration prepares to roll out yet more energy rules. Aside from periods of water restrictions, our local laundromat worker tells me his front loaders are set to where either owner or factory put them in terms of water levels. During drought or water shortage times, the City inspectors can fine laundromat owners if water is above a certain level (front loaders). Commercial washing machines, especially laundromat machines largely escape the energy "requirments" of their domestic cousins out of a matter of public health. Same reason commercial dishwashers can use, for the most part all the water and energy required to get the job done. However water and energy are part of the cost for any laundry or business that requires a dishwasher, so in efforts to keep those costs down, manufacturers are always improving or offering ways to save energy. For instance know that the SQ front loaders in local laundromat can be set for more or less rinses by the owner. There is also a period of "flushing" where the water keeps entering the drum but drain remains open while the machine tumbles. IIRC this feature can be disabled from some rinses or all together. The uber large SQ front loader at local, for instance has about four deep rinses and the aforementioned tumble rinse. Well it did until got cheap. Then he raises prices but took out the tumble rinse. Smaller front loaders at the same laundromat only have three rinses and no tumble rinse. | ||
| Post# 403636 , Reply# 24 1/3/2010 at 15:12 (5,219 days old) by rudin1969 (Italy) | ||
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Mike, you've mentioned the new VZug. What is your feedback on it so far? | ||
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