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Thread Number: 3011
Expert Advice Needed |
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Post# 79016 , Reply# 2 8/18/2005 at 12:26 (6,823 days old) by foraloysius  (Leeuwarden, Friesland, the Netherlands) |
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Hi Allen, Yes, I remember you from the convention. I assume this is a rather new machine? Since we are talking European design here, perhaps it is good to tell that overhere in Europe quite a lot of people are used to starting the washer and then leave for work or so. I do that very often too. Ofcourse sometimes accidents happen, but until now I haven't heard of advices not to turn on the washer when you leave the house. One of the reasons to start the washer when you leave for work are the longer cycles of the European machines. I assume the washer we are talking about also has long cycles? Just out of curiosity, are we talking about a Kenmore HE or Whirlpool Duet here? I don't know if it's possible to give that kind of information. If you want to know more, just ask! Louis | ||
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Post# 79021 , Reply# 6 8/18/2005 at 13:15 (6,823 days old) by chachp (North Little Rock, AR) |
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I run my washer and dishwasher regularly when I am not home. I purposely selected a dishwasher with a delay feature and a washer with a clock for this purpose. My washer can take upwards of 1 1/2 hours to run through a high temp wash so I regularly set the timer and go to work. It starts itself in time to just finish as I come in the door at the end of the day. I also put clothes in before I go to bed and set the machine to finish about the time I plan to get up. I might start the dryer and leave but typically I don't because I want to be there when the cycle finishes so I can hang the clothes. I am not a fan of ironing LOL! So, yes, I would assume the reason these appliances have these features is to be run unattended. Now I suppose someone out there will come up with some definition of unattended that means somewhere within eyesight of the machine. Well if that's the case, then what's the point of having or paying for the feature? | ||
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Post# 79023 , Reply# 7 8/18/2005 at 13:33 (6,823 days old) by Unimatic1140 (Minneapolis) |
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Hi Allen, nice to hear from you again. I never, ever leave any appliance with the exception of the refrigerator operating when I leave the house. I've seen a few of my machines fill and start to agitate and keep filling because of water valve failures. I've always been there to catch it before it did any damage to the machine or worse yet the house. I have had arguments with my spouse over this, sometimes he wants to leave the house for dinner or other reasons and I refuse to go because I know what can happen. While an accident of these sorts is extremely rare, it can and does happen. Waiting another 15 minutes or stopping the machine in mid-cycle certainly isn't a big deal compared to the damage a malfunctioning water or heat using appliance can cause. The Washer/Dryer/Dishwasher/Range are all appliances that must be completely off, with exception of their fluorescent panel lights when I leave the house, even for just a 1/2 hour. | ||
| Post# 79025 , Reply# 8 8/18/2005 at 13:47 (6,823 days old) by Spiraclean (UK) | ||
Hi Robert, I totally agree with you, I personally would never go out of the house and leave any washer or dryer running. I have seen machines over fill before and I am sure if no one was at home the damage this could cause would be extensive. I have also seen tub drain hoses holed by articles left in pockets and on one occasion this damage was caused by the u shaped metal from an under wire bra. Better safe than sorry. All the best. Hugh | ||
| Post# 79027 , Reply# 9 8/18/2005 at 14:32 (6,823 days old) by PeterH770 (Marietta, GA) | ||
Hey Allen! Good to see you posting. Great talking with you in Omaha. Yes, it is completely resonable. Take dishwashers, for instance. Many of them have a delayed start option to take advantage of lower utility rates during off peak hours, most notably at night. A dishwasher could easily fail while the homeowners are at home and asleep, causing just as much damage before the owner wakes. Ovens have a delayed start, so that items can begin cooking while the homeowner is still at work. How many crock-pot/slow cookers work all day unattended and don't burn the house down? Robert already mentioned refrigerators. Dehumidifiers, air conditioning, heating, water heaters. Even telephones with those little transformers on the end that tend to get quite toasty. Totally reasonable. There are thousands of unattended coin laundries out there. Thousands of washers and dryers running with no one watching them. Big equipment, lots of water, lots of gas, lots of electric, big heavy things with lots of motion momentum. Unattended. I myself have 107 of them right now. Perfectly reasonable. All modern appliances have enough built in protectors to reasonably allow them to operate unattended. "Unattended" may be defined as "without the owner's attention at all". Damage may occur, albiet much less, even with an inattentive homeowner at home. "Unattended" is too nebulous a term. No one is at my house right not watching that everything plugged in at home doesn't fail. There aren't enough hours in the day! However, in cases like this, the cause of the failure must be identified. "Inlet water valve did not shut off." Why? Which safety feature, if any, failed? Bad water valve or connections, bad water level control or connections, bad timer, bad electrical connections, etc. I guess it is the washer geek in me that wants to know this, but in the answer to this question is where the basis of the lawsuit ultimately lies. If I were a judge, I would want to know if this was a fluke accident, a manufacturing defect, or something they knew would fail,a nd I would throw out the "unattended" part as frivilous. | ||
| Post# 79028 , Reply# 10 8/18/2005 at 14:34 (6,823 days old) by PeterH770 (Marietta, GA) | ||
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Post# 79030 , Reply# 11 8/18/2005 at 15:00 (6,823 days old) by DADoES (TX, U.S. of A.) |
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The short answer from me is: Yes. The long answer is: Yes, but with understanding of potential risk. I think, that being it is an automatic washer, the consumer expects that the machine can be started and left running unattended to finish processing the washload, and that there are reasonable safeguards in the mechanical/electrical design to protect against malfunctions -- IE an overheated motor or an off-balance spin. However, the consumer must also understand there is an inherent risk of unforseen malfunction that is beyond the machine's ability to control, such as a sudden gross failure or destruction of the machine's water pump ... or water inlet valve ... that could result in a flood condition. I don't profess to know anything about the law, but with the above being said, my intuition / gut feeling is that if I accept the risks of running an appliance unattended and something goes wrong that results in property damage, the manufacturer is not at fault. Unless there is evidence of manufacturer defect that faciliated the failure. One failed water valve is bad luck and does not a lawsuit make. I had a situation some years ago in which the fill tube in one of my toilet tanks split in such a way that water was spraying full-force up against the tank lid and spewing out on the adjacent bathroom wall. It happened just minutes before I was leaving for work. A few minutes later and it would have been a terrible disaster, I wouldn't have been back for at least 12 hours. Did I sue the toilet and valve manufacturer? Of course not! It was an accident. Do I shut off all my toilets now when leaving the house? Nope. | ||
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Post# 79031 , Reply# 12 8/18/2005 at 15:09 (6,823 days old) by fnelson487 (Palm Springs, CA) |
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I Suppose It Depends On Where The Machine Is
I know contractors who will not install a clothes washer on on upper floor without putting a drain pan under it. If the machine is in the basement and near a drain or on a drain pan plumbed to the house drain on an upper floor, a catastrophe could be avoided. I don't think it is unreasonable to leave the house when a machine is running, but if something happens you pay the price. This also goes for a hose break when you haven't turned off the water valves when wash-day is done. Recommended by most and done by few (including me I am ashamed to say). I know that area of LA (I lived in Encino for 21 years). I would venture to guess that someone is going to pay. It will be interesting to see how it comes out. | ||
| Post# 79034 , Reply# 13 8/18/2005 at 15:18 (6,823 days old) by pumper (SE Wisconsin) | ||
I have a delayed start on my front loader & my dishwasher but I have never and would never use them, and I certainly would never leave home with my dryer running. I may be overly cautious, but I think you have to be especially when you live in a condo type setting where your decisions could impact the other tenants. Insurance looks good on paper, but see what happens after you make a claim. Either your premium will shoot up or you will be cancelled, and that claim will follow you for years. Like the others, I like to pull up a pillow and plop down in front of my washer as though I were watching TV, but I often do other things around the house, as you can usually hear water overflowing or smell smoke and can stop the machine before causing major damage. Like I said, I may be overly cautious, but then I have a big dog house in my back yard to deter burglars, even though I don't own a dog!
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| Post# 79037 , Reply# 14 8/18/2005 at 15:36 (6,823 days old) by veg-o-matic (Baltimore, Hon!) | ||
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| Post# 79040 , Reply# 15 8/18/2005 at 16:04 (6,823 days old) by Hometechdoc () | ||
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keep it coming You guys are giveng me exactly what I need. Keep the thoughts coming. I need as many arguments for and against leaving the machines unattended. | ||
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Post# 79052 , Reply# 18 8/18/2005 at 17:05 (6,823 days old) by petek (Ontari ari ari O ) |
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I always remain in the house or yard when the washer/dryer/dishwasher are running. I don't do periodic checkups either but if something went awry I'm sure I'd notice it soon enough, certainly a lot quicker than if I'd been away at work or elsewhere. Also I know that if the washer/dryer leak or overfill that there is a floor drain close by. That being said I know that many people do regardless of any warnings highlited in the owners manual advising against it and that is a big gray area in my mind. Does the owners manual specifically state not to leave the machine unattended? Does the manufacturer warn that the machine is to be installed in a location with proper drainage? Does the manufacturer offer other white goods with "delay" features. Does the manufacturer allude to in their advertising or sales personell that the appliance is "care free" or similar things such as "set it and forget it" PK | ||
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Post# 79063 , Reply# 21 8/18/2005 at 18:10 (6,822 days old) by DADoES (TX, U.S. of A.) |
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In regards to unattended operation of appliances, many dryers nowadays have a 'wrinkle guard' feature that either continuously or intermittently tumbles the load for a period of time after the drying cycle ends, in an effort to minimize wrinkling of clothes that would otherwise be sitting stationary in the drum. I would imagine the companion dryer for the washer in question in this case has such a feature. My Fisher & Paykel dryer tumbles intermittently for up to 24 HRS if the option is selected, which to me infers that the feature is INTENDED for situations in which the machine will be left alone for a period of time and can't be unloaded immediately after the drying process ends. I've used it many times. If the dryer happened to malfuction in some way, well, I don't expect that to happen, but it's the risk I take, which I feel outweighs the convenience of the feature. My F&P washer also has a delay start, ranging from 15 mins to 18 hrs.
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Post# 79066 , Reply# 22 8/18/2005 at 18:29 (6,822 days old) by chachp (North Little Rock, AR) |
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I guess I feel a lot like Dadoes does in that I know there is a risk invloved, but it appears to be minimal. Why would my washer have a delay feature if it wasn't intended to be operated on it's own? Mine is such that I pick the cycle and select the time I want the wash finished. The washer does the math and starts in time to be finished by time I selected. Does this sound like a feature that was intended to be used by someone who is at home watching the machine? I have always felt that the machine had the necessary safeguards built in to it to overcome most machine failures. I may be living under some kind of false sense of security. But I have to ask, how often do these machines really fail and cause the issues you are all afraid of? I'm one of those people who always does the research and makes my decision based on facts. If the cold hard facts are that these failures are not all that common, then I doubt I'll change my ways. I, too, have a machine with a heater and sometimes those machines take a long time. I can't imagine just sitting around waiting for the washer to finish. | ||
| Post# 79067 , Reply# 23 8/18/2005 at 18:33 (6,822 days old) by roto204 (Tucson, AZ) | ||
I agree with veg | ||
| Post# 79072 , Reply# 24 8/18/2005 at 19:05 (6,822 days old) by pumper (SE Wisconsin) | ||
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Post# 79073 , Reply# 25 8/18/2005 at 19:16 (6,822 days old) by appnut (TX) |
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Post# 79074 , Reply# 26 8/18/2005 at 19:22 (6,822 days old) by appnut (TX) |
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Allen, it's good to see you posting. I hope you'll be involved when subject/time allows. Anyway, I've never gone off while the washer & dryer are running and I turn the taps off when I'm finished cuz I don't do laundry every day or even every week. I've gone outside a couple of times to mow the yard but I feel guilty about that. So pretty much, I'm around the house, and prefer to be on the same side of the house as the laundry room. I've heard of a couple of instances where dryers have burned up becauze the heating element didn't shut off at the end of the cycle. So I check my dryer once it's finished. My mom also never went off with the laundry stuff goping. If she had to, she'd turn everything off before leaving the house. S I learned all that from her. Bob | ||
| Post# 79115 , Reply# 27 8/18/2005 at 23:20 (6,822 days old) by powerfin64 (Yakima, Washington) | ||
My answer: Yes.
yes it is resomeable to assume that a automatic washer CAN be left unattended. BUT, leaving ANY APPLIANCE unattended has a risk. Period. No appliance of ANY KIND, is completely Fail-proof, new or old. Failures of any sort can AND will happen to any electrical machanical machine. That has been proven MANY times over, in the world everyone lives in. Think about it. Rich | ||
| Post# 79142 , Reply# 30 8/19/2005 at 01:22 (6,822 days old) by frontaloadotmy (the cool gay realm) | ||
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I don't know the origin of this or if the wording is exact: "Expect the Unexpected!" I don't turn off the water on my washing machine when not in use as manufacturers recommend, but I never leave anything in operation if I'm going to be gone more than an hour. Glenn's first post was the definition of succint! | ||
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Post# 79147 , Reply# 31 8/19/2005 at 01:37 (6,822 days old) by CleanteamofNY ((Monroe, New York) |
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In all the years of doing laundry, I have never worry about leaving the washer or dryer running while I'm doing errands! I was the one who installed the units and faithfully check all connections three times a year because of cleaning behind and underneath the units. Since this a problem with a washer, usually a water valve will go bad during the fill part of a cycle after several years of usage's (more or less between 5-20 years in general) while the machine is on. Normally in most cases it happens while you are home doing one or two loads consecutively. Now if the valve fails when the washer is not in use, sometimes we may see this problem as for slow or long fill times or water in the basket the next washday, so that's like a warning sign to seek for service. In all manuals that comes with every washers, they tell us to turn the water off after use to to relieve pressure on hoses and valves! (This is from one of my Kenmore Manual from 1982). Good words of wisdom but who really follow these instructions? (In my 1996 Kenmore Manual it says for Non-Use or Vacation care to unplug or shut the power off and turn off the water supply to the washer. This helps avoid accidental flooding (due to a water pressure surge) while you are away)! Now get this, it did not give that same instructions to turn the water off after every washday, so I see this as an potential problem on the valve itself if the consumers constantly turning the water valve on and off causing the water valve on the washer to wear prematurely!! So in a real perspective, the MFG's has a problem on how to address this issue correctly so they will not be liable for a claim because of water damages in someone(s) home...... | ||
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Post# 79149 , Reply# 32 8/19/2005 at 01:53 (6,822 days old) by petek (Ontari ari ari O ) |
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The problem in cases like this is that it's not always what is clearly written by the manufacturer but what is the general publics perception of right or wrong in the operation. Obviously there are two camps, will not leave, will leave, regardless of what the instructions say and an arbitration judge might consider that split in his judgement. | ||
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Post# 79194 , Reply# 34 8/19/2005 at 08:11 (6,822 days old) by toggleswitch (New York City, NY) |
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Post# 79196 , Reply# 35 8/19/2005 at 08:25 (6,822 days old) by toggleswitch (New York City, NY) |
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My appliances are generally relatively new (2002 or later.) I frequently let them run unattended. I am so bad as to allow the elctric stove to use a timer to shut itself off, if I am in the garden, or running to the supermarket for a minute. (Of course one should NEVER broil unattended, IMHO). Usually I have my excursions timed in my head so I get back before the timer runs out. the timer is "just in case". In terms of the dryer I NEVER use any dryer softener sheets (they are permanently banned, LOL) which I believe are highly dangerous in that they pour out wax into the machine which rusts it, and attracts lint to stick. NO NO NO NO. But in terms of the vintage GE from the early 90's (which sounds like it has been an abused child.. BANG BANG BANG goes the inner tub against the brake.) I keep an eye on that one. Too much risk IMHO. I have gone so far as to hook it up to a faucet so that I am sure there is no constant water pressure in the hoses. | ||
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Post# 79197 , Reply# 36 8/19/2005 at 08:35 (6,822 days old) by toggleswitch (New York City, NY) |
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Post# 79199 , Reply# 37 8/19/2005 at 08:38 (6,822 days old) by toggleswitch (New York City, NY) |
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Allen, sorry to have gone off on tangents, and to have hi-jacked your first thread. :-( Here is another tangent. CLICK HERE TO GO TO toggleswitch's LINK | ||
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Post# 79200 , Reply# 38 8/19/2005 at 08:41 (6,822 days old) by toggleswitch (New York City, NY) |
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| Post# 79201 , Reply# 39 8/19/2005 at 08:54 (6,822 days old) by veg-o-matic (Baltimore, Hon!) | ||
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Unattended vs leaving the house
Hmmm. We seem to be getting into some very fine points here. I think it's okay to leave a washer/dryer/dishwasher unattended. After all, we bought these appliances because they get the job done automatically, with no intervention on out part. Though I enjoy watching my washer toss the togs, I'm not going to sit by and babysit it. That said, I think it's wrong to leave the house with an appliance running, especially if one lives in a multi-family building. If my washer were in the basement of a single family house, yeah, I'd leave it running and take off. As it is, I have neighbors beneath me, and I don't want to be responsible for damaging their unit. I think it's just plain common sense, which, unfortunately, many people seem to be lacking nowadays. Remember: Doodoo occurs. veg | ||
| Post# 79221 , Reply# 40 8/19/2005 at 10:19 (6,822 days old) by Mayken4now (Panama City, Florida) | ||
It Happens All The Time.
Hi I am Steve and yes I will testify and please use these as evidence! As being a member of this club, I have never brought up the bothersome very expensive occurances of this issue with my machine! Is it reasonable to assume? Ok just what word is displayed on my machine? "DELAY", and the manufacture says "RUN the cycle while you are not at home by using this feature", "and your clothes will be DONE when you get home".! 1st post 
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| Post# 79223 , Reply# 41 8/19/2005 at 10:23 (6,822 days old) by Mayken4now (Panama City, Florida) | ||
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2nd post
Ok now look at this. It happens all the time. Sometimes the valve is more open (meaning more water enters the machine) than others. This was just a trickle, but I have seen more volume coming in while the machine is off. And how much did I pay for the HE3T's? Yea over two thousand! SO it is very reasonable one could assume quality. Sue the manufacture. Steve 
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Post# 79233 , Reply# 42 8/19/2005 at 12:21 (6,822 days old) by toggleswitch (New York City, NY) |
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See, now in my case I really liked my downstairs neighbors and we had keys to each-other's apts, for just such eventualities. Electricity was part of the monthly maintenance charges, and unmetered to the co-op owners There was a surcharge per appliance of: $5 washer $5 dishwasher $10 dryer $15 per A/C (Every month all year 'round) for the above "optional appliances" ...so I allowed them to use my dryer. (their place had a W but no D) a 70's Westy F/L no less!, but I digress. One day I got home early and started cooking dinner. The stove was right next to the dryer. (I had an undercounter Frid-Ge-More with a Sears badge and a SS drum). There was a clunk-clunk clunk sound coming frm the running dryer. So I opened the dryer door and found two bullets in there! Remember references to my downstairs neighbor the cop? All laundry priviledges were permamently suspended. I coulda gotten my jingle-bobs shot off! | ||
| Post# 79245 , Reply# 44 8/19/2005 at 14:38 (6,822 days old) by PeterH770 (Marietta, GA) | ||
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That Home Site
And check this out. It appears valve issues on these guys are a bit more wide spread.
CLICK HERE TO GO TO PeterH770's LINK | ||
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Post# 79261 , Reply# 45 8/19/2005 at 16:34 (6,822 days old) by toggleswitch (New York City, NY) |
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...and silly me, I thought that water-oulet valves were pretty standard and normally outsourced. Yyou mean they wern't perfected by the late 60's? TSK TSK. But then again send the work south y "Hecho en Mexico" results in such "small problems" When I sold appliances for Sears, they were having the grates (for gas stoves) made there. The heat was melting off the paint/finish. I SO KID YOU NOT. Product testing anyone? | ||
| Post# 79285 , Reply# 46 8/19/2005 at 20:50 (6,821 days old) by kenmore1978 () | ||
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water valves outsourcing Typically, Dole or Eaton | ||
| Post# 79354 , Reply# 50 8/20/2005 at 07:49 (6,821 days old) by Mayken4now (Panama City, Florida) | ||
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Ok guys
The question is about being reasonable to assume you can leave your "AUTOMATIC WASHER". The different opinions are all personal and are certainly accepted. A new washer malfunctioning weather you are home or not is not the question. How many of you folks multi-tasks? Ya know that's the thing this day and time. One could only wash clothes, then dry them etc. Then mow the yard, then run the hoover, then wash the car, and clean the house, then by midnight perhaps we can go to the grocery store, and catch a movie - NOT, too tired had to babysit the washer all day! Refer to PeterH770's comment #79027 in this posting. "AINT ENOUGH HOURS IN ONE DAY" Steve | ||
| Post# 79364 , Reply# 52 8/20/2005 at 12:12 (6,821 days old) by burpalator () | ||
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I think the original concept behind the automatic was that it would do all the work itself -- set it and leave it -- so the basic inference is that it doesn't need an attendant. Just my opinion but it makes sense to me. | ||
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Post# 79395 , Reply# 53 8/20/2005 at 18:46 (6,820 days old) by gansky1 (Omaha, The Home of the TV Dinner!) |
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Bendix Said it Best... | ||
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Post# 79396 , Reply# 54 8/20/2005 at 18:48 (6,820 days old) by gansky1 (Omaha, The Home of the TV Dinner!) |
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1939 | ||
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Post# 79398 , Reply# 55 8/20/2005 at 18:59 (6,820 days old) by gansky1 (Omaha, The Home of the TV Dinner!) |
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BTW, the first scan (birthright) is from a 1937 Bendix brochure touting the washer before it was even available for sale! With advertising like that, who could argue? Perhaps some are lulled into a somewhat false sense of security having done countless loads of wash in their machines, time after time, the washer completes it's cycle and turns itself off without fail. The one time something does go wrong it's the manufacturer's fault? Always has to be someone else's fault... Sometimes bad things just happen, that's life and we should try to stop finding someone to blame for every bad thing that happens. (except the price of gas!) | ||
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Post# 79419 , Reply# 56 8/20/2005 at 23:02 (6,820 days old) by petek (Ontari ari ari O ) |
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Post# 79478 , Reply# 58 8/21/2005 at 14:29 (6,820 days old) by super32 (Blackstone Massachusetts) |
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reasonable to assume?
Im with other who have posted, it is an automatic washer. You are suppose to be able to put the clothes in and go do other things. With alot of safety features on todays newer appliances there is no reason to have to babysit. I do use the delay on the washer to finish as im comming home or getting up in the morning. I use the delay so I dont have wet clothes in the machine all night or day. I have seen refrigerators catch fire, 2 certain brands of TV's have recalls because of fire, people have parked their cars in the garage got out went in to the house and the car catch on fire. True story, I had a radio in my bedroom, it was about 2yrs old at the time. I turned off the lights to go to bed and smelled something burning. I turned on the light and got up to find the cord on the radio going up in smoke. The radio was not on. My point like others on this forum, there are other appliances, lights, radios etc.... that we leave pluged in and not turned on that can start a fire or leak when we are not home. I dont know anybody that shuts all the power and water off when they are not home. | ||
| Post# 79766 , Reply# 60 8/23/2005 at 12:10 (6,818 days old) by Hometechdoc () | ||
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Thanks again You huys have given us a lot to work with. You are an invaluable resource. The website reference wa a real help | ||
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Post# 79952 , Reply# 61 8/24/2005 at 06:58 (6,817 days old) by gizmo (Victoria, Australia) |
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so can you tell us... Which side of the dispute are you a witness for? Chris. | ||
| Post# 80822 , Reply# 62 8/29/2005 at 16:06 (6,812 days old) by hometechdoc () | ||
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I am working for attorney representing the HOA who is being sued by the homeowners insurance company. | ||
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Post# 80826 , Reply# 63 8/29/2005 at 16:35 (6,812 days old) by Toggleswitch (New York City, NY) |
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Post# 81148 , Reply# 64 9/1/2005 at 08:32 (6,809 days old) by gizmo (Victoria, Australia) |
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what is a HOA? | ||
| Post# 81161 , Reply# 65 9/1/2005 at 10:29 (6,809 days old) by westie2 () | ||
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HOA Home Owners Association. All the owners of the condo's. | ||
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Post# 81185 , Reply# 66 9/1/2005 at 14:29 (6,809 days old) by toggleswitch (New York City, NY) |
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