Paging Gordon Casey and/or John Lefever

Rob -

I'll give you some tips on what I would have done with your washer "back in the day" and what I'd do now. I have a very similar 1976 machine that I may take the exact same approach with.

Here is some background:

The heyday of black panel belt-drive used washers was probably in the early to mid 1990s. Supply was plentiful after Sears produced them for 11 years. Output was at record levels in the mid 1980s. The then current Kenmore and Whirlpool DD washers still had black control panels, so the belt-drives, though old-school mechanically, were comparable and very easy to sell used. I sold nearly every one of these machines that I could get my hands on, and out of 50-60 machines, probably 3/4 of them were black panel models. I would have been thrilled to have yours because it being a 1977 product would have the taller centerpost, which goes a long way to avoiding flooded bearings and transmissions. I did not appreciate the short centerposts of 1978 and later at that point yet.

To get your machine up to saleable par in 1995, I would put it though a refurb process that applied to every machine (I never wanted to hear about my machines once they went back into the field unless it was from a customer wanting another or wanting to refer me to a friend). I replaced some stuff that didn't always need immediate replacement, so that they would not fail 6-months or two years later, and so I had piece of mind. Each machine got new tub seals (tub outlet hose, centerpost gasket, and tub mounting bolt seals), the centerpost seals were replaced, a new pump was installed unless the one on the machine was clearly new-ish. A new belt was always installed again unless it was already new looking.

THEN, after that was done, I'd tackle anything else wrong with it. The pump and seals often solved the machine's problem, and I found plenty that were just beginning to leak. Not too much would be left after that, but timer issues were common. The newer machines were not plagued with issues that had been common with the older 60s machines (failed belts and worn bearings).

I have learned that it is not always prudent to follow this same course of action today on the same machines. In many cases, after years of parts running in the same places, they literally wear themselves into grooves that become difficult to separate. At the same time, worn motors and centerposts can create a tremendous racket when disturbed and put back together. Internal bearings in motors get worn, and when tightening new belts on them, they send vibration all over the machine, which gets amplified by slight wear gaps in the centerpost. The result is a noisy machine that only quiets down after it washes a load or two. NOT fun.

Tubs also can get stuck or rusted into place, and can be difficult to remove. I have the scars on my left hand to proove it from the 1982 model's tub which let-go after being so tightly stuck that I literally picked the machine up off the floor by it's tub at one point. It let go, and my hand slammed into the left rear corner gusset. OUCH!

So, I would not mess with anything on your machine unless you are going to do a total and complete rebuild - bearings, seals, possible motor, etc. Instead, I would address that which I know is bad or going bad.

You say you need a belt. That's fine - keep in mind that changing the belt can make the centerpost noisy when you tighten everything back down, AND you can irriate the motor as I said above. There is no way to avoid this unless you change the belt without loosening the transmission. This is difficult for someone at the beginning of the learning curve, especially on a fast-brake, post 1971 machine.

If you have a slow-drain condition, or a timer concern, that is straight-forward and easy and I wouldn't hesitate. I am NOT saying that any of these bad things WILL happen to your machine, as it may come out beautifully, but the chance is there.

What besides the belt concerns you with your machine?

Gordon

This post was last edited 10/11/2010 at 15:00


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Post# 467776 10/6/2010 at 18:28 (4,944 days old) by rll70sman (Hastings, Minnesota)
Checkrate/Likes Now that it's fall and progressively getting cooler, I'd like to tear into the 1977 Kenmore 70 Series washer. I know it needs a new belt, so I bought that right away. I've also replaced the tub clips and put new clamps on the inlet hose. However, I would like to know what else should be done to get the machine in good working order and, in all hopes, extend its life. Please contact me when you have time. Thanks! Rob

Post# 468500 , Reply# 1 10/11/2010 at 09:29 (4,939 days old) by rll70sman (Hastings, Minnesota)
Checkrate/Likes Hello?

Post# 468518 , Reply# 2 10/11/2010 at 12:31 (4,939 days old) by KenmoreGuy64 (Charlotte, NC)
Checkrate/Likes Hey Rob - I know that John has been quite busy with the big gathering in Baltimore. I would have been there were it not for a family function for my parent's 50th. I will try to give you some tips later this afternoon, but my general feeling these days is "If it ain't broke...yada yada". Gordon

Post# 468532 , Reply# 3 10/11/2010 at 14:37 (4,939 days old) by KenmoreGuy64 (Charlotte, NC)
Checkrate/Likes Rob - I'll give you some tips on what I would have done with your washer "back in the day" and what I'd do now. I have a very similar 1976 machine that I may take the exact same approach with. Here is some background: The heyday of black panel belt-drive used washers was probably in the early to mid 1990s. Supply was plentiful after Sears produced them for 11 years. Output was at record levels in the mid 1980s. The then current Kenmore and Whirlpool DD washers still had black control panels, so the belt-drives, though old-school mechanically, were comparable and very easy to sell used. I sold nearly every one of these machines that I could get my hands on, and out of 50-60 machines, probably 3/4 of them were black panel models. I would have been thrilled to have yours because it being a 1977 product would have the taller centerpost, which goes a long way to avoiding flooded bearings and transmissions. I did not appreciate the short centerposts of 1978 and later at that point yet. To get your machine up to saleable par in 1995, I would put it though a refurb process that applied to every machine (I never wanted to hear about my machines once they went back into the field unless it was from a customer wanting another or wanting to refer me to a friend). I replaced some stuff that didn't always need immediate replacement, so that they would not fail 6-months or two years later, and so I had piece of mind. Each machine got new tub seals (tub outlet hose, centerpost gasket, and tub mounting bolt seals), the centerpost seals were replaced, a new pump was installed unless the one on the machine was clearly new-ish. A new belt was always installed again unless it was already new looking. THEN, after that was done, I'd tackle anything else wrong with it. The pump and seals often solved the machine's problem, and I found plenty that were just beginning to leak. Not too much would be left after that, but timer issues were common. The newer machines were not plagued with issues that had been common with the older 60s machines (failed belts and worn bearings). I have learned that it is not always prudent to follow this same course of action today on the same machines. In many cases, after years of parts running in the same places, they literally wear themselves into grooves that become difficult to separate. At the same time, worn motors and centerposts can create a tremendous racket when disturbed and put back together. Internal bearings in motors get worn, and when tightening new belts on them, they send vibration all over the machine, which gets amplified by slight wear gaps in the centerpost. The result is a noisy machine that only quiets down after it washes a load or two. NOT fun. Tubs also can get stuck or rusted into place, and can be difficult to remove. I have the scars on my left hand to proove it from the 1982 model's tub which let-go after being so tightly stuck that I literally picked the machine up off the floor by it's tub at one point. It let go, and my hand slammed into the left rear corner gusset. OUCH! So, I would not mess with anything on your machine unless you are going to do a total and complete rebuild - bearings, seals, possible motor, etc. Instead, I would address that which I know is bad or going bad. You say you need a belt. That's fine - keep in mind that changing the belt can make the centerpost noisy when you tighten everything back down, AND you can irriate the motor as I said above. There is no way to avoid this unless you change the belt without loosening the transmission. This is difficult for someone at the beginning of the learning curve, especially on a fast-brake, post 1971 machine. If you have a slow-drain condition, or a timer concern, that is straight-forward and easy and I wouldn't hesitate. I am NOT saying that any of these bad things WILL happen to your machine, as it may come out beautifully, but the chance is there. What besides the belt concerns you with your machine? Gordon This post was last edited 10/11/2010 at 15:00

Post# 469029 , Reply# 4 10/13/2010 at 11:08 (4,937 days old) by rll70sman (Hastings, Minnesota)
Checkrate/Likes Hi Gordon! Thanks for your reply! Perhaps later on today, I can get around to recording a video of the machine going through the Prewash cycle. That way you can observe fill, agitation, drain, and spin functions. In so doing, I hope that it will capture the sounds that don't seem normal, which could just be the product of a worn belt. The pump seems to drain the machine at a normal rate and has a healthy "breathing" sound after all water has emptied from the tub. Timer issues don't seem to be a concern either, as it advances as it should through all the cycles without hesitation. More to come. Stay tuned.... Rob

Post# 469272 , Reply# 5 10/14/2010 at 08:39 (4,936 days old) by rll70sman (Hastings, Minnesota)
Checkrate/Likes Gordon, Check out at your leisure the video of the washer going through the Prewash cycle. I'm hoping those sounds are due to the worn belt rather than bearings.... Rob CLICK HERE TO GO TO rll70sman's LINK

Post# 469275 , Reply# 6 10/14/2010 at 10:14 (4,936 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md)
Checkrate/Likes *NOISEY BD WASHER* Rob you have a worn clutch pulley bearing do not run the machine until you try to add some oil other wise you will need replace the complete basket drive assembly. You may need a new one anyway if there is already to much damage. This is one of the parts of a BD washer that should always be lubricated when putting an old machine back into regular use. You can always tell it is the clutch pulley bearing because the noise goes away when the basket reaches full spin speed and the clutch pulley is no longer turning on the spin tube but rather it is now turning with the spin tube.

Post# 469403 , Reply# 7 10/14/2010 at 22:40 (4,935 days old) by KenmoreGuy64 (Charlotte, NC)
Checkrate/Likes Rob - I hate to say it, but the '77 ranks up there in the noisier group of those I've seen. John is right, at least a major portion of that noise is coming from the basket drive pulley. Sometimes these pulleys make a little bit of noise even when the machine isn't very worn. My '86 was doing that in 1994 and it had had a two-year break and only washed for me, so light use for 6 years. I found back then that the first spin between wash and rinse was sufficient to warm the basket drive up enough (from friction in the centerpost) to quiet the pulley during the rinse agitation and the rest of the cycle. I think I hear some centerpost vibration too and it sounds like it might be early signs of bearing wear. You can hear it as a zinging sound during spin that the agitator amplifies. If you grab the agitator you should be able to alter or stop the sound. I had a couple machines like this years ago - the basket drive, the bearings and the motor all comtributed to noise, which I would eliminate one by one. Many standard capacity machines had split-phase (no capacitor start) GE motors and they were notorious for getting noisey as their own bearings wore. Since the majority of the noise is basket drive pulley oriented, you need to focus there. The simplest fix is a whole new basket drive, but that is not a cheap solution. The part number is 383923 and it's obsolete now. You can take apart the old drive assembly and lube the old pulley bearing, but being that noisey there may be some decent gaps worn in there that won't hold oil. I have had marginal success there, maybe John can say better. The sound when the machine first went into spin sounds like the basket drive is fairly worn anyway (lots of distance between the drive pulley surface and the clutch pads which creates a slap sound when engaging spin). If that were my machine, I would determine if the bearings are beginning to wear, and if so, replace them (but that's because I can do it, they aren't worn enough to be a show stopper for the machine for a while). Then, deal with the basket drive. If there is still some unpleasant noise, I'd growl at the motor and think about finding an Emerson replacement. I am majorly SORRY for the less than glowing report Rob! Gordon

Post# 469456 , Reply# 8 10/15/2010 at 09:52 (4,935 days old) by rll70sman (Hastings, Minnesota)
Checkrate/Likes You don't have to apologize, Gordon! It is what it is, and I couldn't help but wonder what a 33-year-old machine that has been put through the paces would look like underneath. The woman who owned the washer and dryer clearly took care of them so they look great on the outside--but that's where it ends. Any ideas on where I could begin to look for a new/used basket drive? Thanks for all your help and advice and for taking the time to watch the video clip. Rob

Post# 470653 , Reply# 11 10/21/2010 at 06:59 (4,929 days old) by alr2903 (TN)
Checkrate/Likes Rob,I hope you try to lubricate like John offered. Its a nice, well kept old kenmore, Avocado and a rotoswirl. Be a shame to see it go the scrap heap. Maybe a little oil and you could get some $ for them. alr2903

Post# 470997 , Reply# 13 10/23/2010 at 14:43 (4,927 days old) by 70series ( Connecticut.)
Checkrate/Likes I second that. Congrats Gordon on landing another nice one. Have a good one, James

Post# 469461 , Reply# 9 10/15/2010 at 10:31 (4,935 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md)
Checkrate/Likes *NOISEY BD WASHER* Rob the basket drive pulley can be easily oiled with no disassembly of the machine at all and is the first thing to try. Its a little difficult to describe how to do this in print if you want to call me at some point I would be glad to tell how, you could Email me a contact # John.

Post# 470483 , Reply# 10 10/20/2010 at 08:03 (4,930 days old) by rll70sman (Hastings, Minnesota)
Checkrate/Likes Well, in all likelihood, I'm going to get rid of this washer and dryer. My unemployment is due to run out at the end of the month so spending more money to restore them isn't a wise use of funds right now. It's a decision I'd rather not make but, unfortunately, I'll probably relist the machines on craigslist or offer them for scrap. Rob

Post# 470956 , Reply# 12 10/23/2010 at 08:09 (4,927 days old) by rll70sman (Hastings, Minnesota)
Checkrate/Likes *Going to a good home* I'm proud to announce that Gordon is arranging to pick up the washer and dryer at some point in the near future. I just don't have the monetary resources right now to delve into any further restoration. I know Gordon will appreciate them more than some Joe Schmo on craigslist who'll turn around sell them for scrap. Rob