Thread Number: 31609
LG FL Needs more water
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Post# 476798   11/21/2010 at 22:36 (4,902 days old) by pullmyfinger ()        

Hello all,

Has anyone ever taken apart a late model LG front loader to see what is used to measure water level?

Like many others, I want more water used during the wash cycles. My model, WM2501HWA, has an "Add water" option, but it still is not enough for really muddy/dirty loads.

I can add water to the detergent drawer but the water level sensor cannot be fooled, and stops the cycle and pumps out the extra water.

Anyway, I want to see if the water level sensor can be modified to allow more water use.

Thanks guys!





Post# 476843 , Reply# 1   11/22/2010 at 01:25 (4,902 days old) by rp2813 (Sannazay)        

rp2813's profile picture
Wow, that is a real drag that it will drain the water you add. At least my Affinity is too stupid to know better and lets me add as much as I see fit but I have to add it via the detergent drawer too, which is a hassle.

Post# 476881 , Reply# 2   11/22/2010 at 08:23 (4,902 days old) by logixx (Germany)        

logixx's profile picture
LG, amongst others, uses a digital sensor, which cannot be adjusted.

How about adding a pre-wash and extra rinse? Or a warm Rinse/Spin (with low spin speed) before the actual wash cycle?

I think the only way to add more water by default is to increase the length of the hose that connects to the water level sensor. This will make every fill higher. Don't know by how much the hose would have to be extended, though. It's K550 on the pic below.

Alex


Post# 476952 , Reply# 3   11/22/2010 at 14:24 (4,902 days old) by Pullmyfinger ()        

Thanks Alex, good info. Is there a link you can provide to these parts diagrams?

I believe adding to the length of the hose may be what is needed to "fool" the sensor. I will try it and post results.


Post# 476969 , Reply# 4   11/22/2010 at 15:14 (4,902 days old) by whitetub (Montreal, Canada)        

On my Samsung, I just pause the cycle, open the door, and pour in the extra water, using a pitcher. Then close back the door, and press resume, and that's it. and every time you open and close the door, the machine adds a little more water by itself before resuming the tumbling.


Post# 476974 , Reply# 5   11/22/2010 at 16:07 (4,901 days old) by RevvinKevin (Tinseltown - Shakey Town - La-La Land)        
This may or may not help with the LG question.....

revvinkevin's profile picture


I have a KM Elite steam washer and it too has that electronic water level sensor. I have thought about adding an "air chamber" (like a 16 oz or larger plastic water bottle) in the hose via a "T" between the air bell on the tub and the W.L.S. According to other postings (now in the archives) this will effectively increase the water level without the washer going into "freak out mode" and draining the tub. I have yet to attempt it because of other projects and no prepping for my up coming Dec 11 wash-in.

BTW Rob... I love your screen name, VERY funny!

Kevin


Post# 476976 , Reply# 6   11/22/2010 at 16:27 (4,901 days old) by Pullmyfinger ()        

I found the diagrams on Sears site. www.searspartsdirect.com/partsdir...

Post# 476977 , Reply# 7   11/22/2010 at 16:30 (4,901 days old) by Pullmyfinger ()        

LOL thanks Kevin! My Wife thinks that name is appropriate.....

Post# 476981 , Reply# 8   11/22/2010 at 16:50 (4,901 days old) by mark_wpduet (Lexington KY)        

mark_wpduet's profile picture
Doesn't your machine have a comforter cycle? I think it uses more water

Post# 477148 , Reply# 9   11/23/2010 at 20:02 (4,900 days old) by toploader1984 ()        

when i had my 2007 LG front loader it would do the same thing, pump the water out, i used to sometime put it on the comforter/bulky items cycle, that cycle uses alot more water. although my machine would only let you select the highest spin speed of medium on the comforter cycle.

Post# 477149 , Reply# 10   11/23/2010 at 20:08 (4,900 days old) by mark_wpduet (Lexington KY)        

mark_wpduet's profile picture
Yea, but medium spin speed is pretty adequate. Tloader.......when u say A LOT more water, how much more are you talking?

Post# 477150 , Reply# 11   11/23/2010 at 20:14 (4,900 days old) by pullmyfinger ()        

The bulky/large cycle adds more water, but not much more.

Post# 477153 , Reply# 12   11/23/2010 at 20:26 (4,900 days old) by powerfin64 (Yakima, Washington)        

powerfin64's profile picture
how much water are you wanting it to add?? remember, depends on the load size/weight.

Post# 477220 , Reply# 13   11/24/2010 at 10:34 (4,900 days old) by westtexman (Lubbock, Texas)        

I typically use the Permanent Press cycle for all loads - including my temp-boosted white loads, and find that the cycle provides enough water to get the job done beautifully, when I also select the "Water Plus" option.

I used to add water through my detergent drawer until I started using this cycle. Good luck!


Post# 477273 , Reply# 14   11/24/2010 at 13:47 (4,900 days old) by toploader1984 ()        

normally the water level is about2 inches, with the bulky cycle the water almost to the boot.

Post# 478389 , Reply# 15   11/29/2010 at 18:55 (4,894 days old) by 3beltwesty ()        
How to get a Service Manual for WM2501HWA?

I went to the Sears link in reply#6 and I see they have as service manual; *BUT* it says:

Technician Required for Ordering. For assistance please contact 1-800-4MY-HOME or click here to schedule an appointment.

So can morals buy as service manual without being a tech?


Post# 478472 , Reply# 16   11/30/2010 at 09:34 (4,894 days old) by 3beltwesty ()        
Sears will not sell a Service Manual for WM2501HWA

In Calling Sears "parts" for the manual today they said they could not sell me a manual. I talked to 5 different folks in 3 dept's.

"Parts" sent me to "service" and then to "customer care", all who cannot order Sears part # G004 on the diagram Service manual

Number: MFL30599142 $27.69 in stock.

Last night it said backordered; today it said in stock.

Thus here too I wanted to understand more about my new LG WM2501hv washer's water level by buying a service manual, sears has one but will not sell one to me. Weird


Post# 478488 , Reply# 17   11/30/2010 at 11:21 (4,894 days old) by logixx (Germany)        

logixx's profile picture
Too bad. Aditionally, LG also stopped updating their service manual site long ago: http://136.166.4.200/SubPages/DA_Laundry.htm

Post# 478498 , Reply# 18   11/30/2010 at 12:24 (4,894 days old) by 3beltwesty ()        
I found a manual for WM2501HWA

I googled the service manual number of MFL30599142 and found one at partstore.com for 39 bucks; with tax and shipping it would be 50 bucks ie pricey. I will ponder the purchase.

Post# 478504 , Reply# 19   11/30/2010 at 13:01 (4,894 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

3beltwesty:
Just asking, but what do you need the service manual for? Are you trying to activate the service mode?


Post# 478523 , Reply# 20   11/30/2010 at 14:04 (4,894 days old) by 3beltwesty ()        

Hello;

I just want to learn more about how the washer senses the water level and if it can be goosed higher. I typically get or buy a manual for most devices I own. I am a mechanical and electrical engineer and modifying stuff is done all the time. I found several LG service manuals on the web already that I have downloaded for non steam older models.


The WM2501HV LG steam washer when first connected must have an internal chamber with a cuttoff that "fills up" because the cold side sounded like a very very quiet toilet tank filling for about 5 minutes. This is probably the steam generator's water tank is my wild guess. There are no leaks and the sound was very faint; at first I thought it might have leak. The hot side did not have this noise.

When one shut off the cold side's supply; the "water filling up" noise stuff stops; opening up the valve made the water filling noise re-occur. After the approx 5 minutes the fill noise is gone and the washer seems a bit heaver to move; thus there must be a tank or chamber on the cold side filling with water.

I too like the thread starter had the thoughts:

"My model, WM2501HWA, has an "Add water" option, but it still is not enough for really muddy/dirty loads. "


Post# 481265 , Reply# 21   12/13/2010 at 01:18 (4,881 days old) by pullmyfinger ()        
Mods have begun

I added some volume to the water pressure sensor to "Fool" it into adding more water. The first bottle was too big (1 gallon) and the water level went more than half way up the window

I am trying different size bottles and will post results soon.


Post# 481266 , Reply# 22   12/13/2010 at 01:24 (4,881 days old) by pullmyfinger ()        

Water level with the 2 bottles added to the sensor line. Its maybe 1.5" higher than before the mod.

Post# 481346 , Reply# 23   12/13/2010 at 10:31 (4,881 days old) by dj-gabriele ()        

That much water for that little load? That's so wasteful!
If you have a specially dirty load can't you just add a prewash?


Post# 481380 , Reply# 24   12/13/2010 at 12:06 (4,881 days old) by Pullmyfinger ()        

Wasteful?? What, 2 gallons? I don't think so.

"Wasteful" is my neighbors lawn sprinklers watering his side walk for 30 minutes every day at 5 gallons a minute.


Post# 481384 , Reply# 25   12/13/2010 at 12:40 (4,881 days old) by jlbrazil (brazil)        
...

I want to make this , but if with the little water my LG suffer to heats the water , imagine with more water :(
I should've bought 220 volts.
I don't know where the hell my mind was when I bought 110 volts :@
But I only don't like the rinses water levels , the wash water level is ok.
It almos reach the rim of the drum.
I have one WM1355HW.
I have some videos of it uploaded on youtube :)


CLICK HERE TO GO TO jlbrazil's LINK


Post# 481396 , Reply# 26   12/13/2010 at 13:09 (4,881 days old) by Pullmyfinger ()        

Well you can install a 1/4 turn on-off valve in the hose to the bottles and turn it off for the wash then on for the rinse, but that requires you to be near the washer to wait for the rinse cycle.

Post# 481403 , Reply# 27   12/13/2010 at 13:44 (4,881 days old) by 3beltwesty ()        
"Water level frequency" as LG's buzzword

"Instead of either opening or closing a switch, it moves an iron "plug" inside of a coil. This coil is charged and measures how far the iron plug travels based on a magnetic field and inputs the reading to the main control board in KHZ. "

CLICK HERE TO GO TO 3beltwesty's LINK


Post# 481419 , Reply# 28   12/13/2010 at 14:43 (4,881 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

I believe the pressure switches on the LG's are analog. While you may have "fooled" the machine by this hack, You've affected more than just the pressure switch. The amount of water in the drum is determined by several other things as well. Also the amount of water can differ per cycle.

Post# 481442 , Reply# 29   12/13/2010 at 16:39 (4,880 days old) by Pullmyfinger ()        

Post 3 states the sensor is digital. So far this mod is working, just need to finalize the chamber size, then make one using PVC for reliability, and mounted inside. The setup seen in the pic is just for testing.

Post# 481873 , Reply# 30   12/15/2010 at 14:15 (4,879 days old) by Pullmyfinger ()        

A 64 ounce container is working good so far. At least now some water is visable during the wash cycle. Will post pics of this "hack" soon.

Post# 482098 , Reply# 31   12/16/2010 at 16:37 (4,877 days old) by 3beltwesty ()        
is you hose T'd into K550?

So is this mod a "T" added to hose K550 and your green hose runs out to your bottles that add volume?

Post# 482114 , Reply# 32   12/16/2010 at 17:02 (4,877 days old) by 3beltwesty ()        
Pressure Sensor is Diagram A410 6601ER1006E



This part fits the following models:
Kenmore
40441, 40448, 40512, 40518, 41022, 41028, 42192, 42198, 42199

Lg

40272, 40311, 40318, CW2079CWD, CW2079CWN, F1305FDM, GCW1069CS, GCW1069QS, LSWF388HVS, WD-10270BD, WD-10272BD, WD-11270BD, WD-11270RD, WD-11275BD, WD-11276BD, WD-12272BD, WD-12275BD, WD-12276BD, WD-1243FHB, WD-1243RHD, WD-12523BDM, WD-13270BDM, WD-13275BDM, WD-13276BDM, WD-14311RD, WD-14316RD, WM0001HTMA, WM2050CW, WM2075CW, WM2077CW, WM2101HW, WM2140CW, WM2150HW, WM2233HD, WM2233HS, WM2233HU, WM2233HW, WM2277HB, WM2277HS, WM2301HR, WM2455HG, WM2455HW, WM2487HRM, WM2487HRMA, WM2487HWM, WM2487HWMA, WM2496HSM, WM2496HWM, WM2497HWM, WM2501HVA, WM2501HWA, WM2601HL, WM2601HR, WM2601HW, WM2677HBM, WM2677HSM, WM2677HWM, WM2688HNM, WM2688HNMA, WM2688HWM, WM2688HWMA, WM2701HV, WM2801HLA, WM2801HRA, WM2801HWA, WM2901HVA, WM3001HPA, WM3001HRA, WM3001HWA, WM3431HS, WM3431HW, WM3677HW, WM3987HW, WM3988HWA


Post# 482124 , Reply# 33   12/16/2010 at 17:15 (4,877 days old) by 3beltwesty ()        
added tube and volume

The way these pressure switches work, the internal moving diaphragm really "wants" to see a small rigid pressure tube to the source of pressure.

By adding a larger tube and more spongy volumes { pop bottles } in the input line, you basically are having to have a higher water pressure {head} in inches in the washer to make the LG pressure switch read "what it wants to see".

About 4 years ago I placed a "T" in my 1976 FL Westinghouse and ran it to a Dywer pressure gage, and the laundry room almost flooded because the old beast filled up about 3/4 full and was still rising.

If the pressure gauge was directly on the tub one could not fake it off so easy.

The added tube and volume is like having voltage drop added purposely.


Post# 482125 , Reply# 34   12/16/2010 at 17:25 (4,877 days old) by 3beltwesty ()        
The sensor is a 3 terminal device

For testing, a manual says:

Is the resistance of the pressure sensor out of range?

(pin 1 ~ pin 3)

(21 ~ 23 ohms +/- 10 percent )



Post# 482126 , Reply# 35   12/16/2010 at 17:28 (4,877 days old) by 3beltwesty ()        
An electrical hack might be to

Figure out what resistance the computer "wants to see" versus water level of the tub, and fake it off with a bias. ie a dumb resistor added in place.

Post# 482128 , Reply# 36   12/16/2010 at 17:44 (4,877 days old) by 3beltwesty ()        
tube to sensor layout

Here I borrowed supremewhirlpols image from the other thread and showed myself! where the tube and sensor run. Strangely, this is NOT in the LG service manual.

Post# 482131 , Reply# 37   12/16/2010 at 18:09 (4,877 days old) by 3beltwesty ()        
The LG Training manual points to a slug moved by the diaphra

That resistance test I mentioned up the just measures the coil's DC dumb resistance.

IN actual operation the sensor's moveable iron slug is part of the computers analog input.

The slug in the sensor is part of the oscillator circuit, where frequency drops with pressure.


CLICK HERE TO GO TO 3beltwesty's LINK


Post# 482132 , Reply# 38   12/16/2010 at 18:13 (4,877 days old) by 3beltwesty ()        
to fake it off electrically

to fake it off electrically would require moving the resonance, maybe adding a coil in series or parallel.

There also might be a dumb as sliced bread screw driver adjust too; photos of the sensor look like there is a crossed slot.


Post# 482155 , Reply# 39   12/16/2010 at 19:19 (4,877 days old) by pullmyfinger ()        
More pics

The tee

Post# 482156 , Reply# 40   12/16/2010 at 19:21 (4,877 days old) by pullmyfinger ()        

The extra volume

Post# 482157 , Reply# 41   12/16/2010 at 19:24 (4,877 days old) by pullmyfinger ()        

LG provided a perfect size hole to exit the hose outside.

Post# 482163 , Reply# 42   12/16/2010 at 19:48 (4,877 days old) by pullmyfinger ()        

I agree with everything you said westy. I was reluctant to solder in a resister or any other electrical hack as this "mechanical only" mod is easily removed in the event of a warranty repair.

And,I mounted the chamber externally so its easy to fine tune the water level to where I want it.

Finally, this is a rigid setup now with the pvc tube. You are correct about the spongy plastic bottles. So far I ran 1 load with good results, water level is just about at the edge of the bottom of the door as shown in post 22.

That was with the bulk/large cycle and water plus on. Thanks for your contribution and input.


Post# 482176 , Reply# 43   12/16/2010 at 21:35 (4,877 days old) by 3beltwesty ()        
Thanks for images.

Pullmyfinger, Thanks for the images. I have not opened my machine up yet.

** was the cover hard to remove; ie a mess of stuff to break?


I actually have the same WM2501HWA washer too and got it on sale at Home Depot for 599 a few weeks back. It has the aluminum spider part number as supremewhirlpol's rebuild of the WM2277HW, thus maybe I will get 5 years life and be happy.:) Home Depot had Amana FL NFW7300WW on sale for just 349 bucks

As far as the water sensor, I actually ordered one to play with and mess with. The manuals and web info are poor.

Several web images appear to have 5V ie 5 volts marked on the sensor. At first I thought this was cars vacuum sensor, ie ground, +5 volts and signal. The iron slug comments make it sound like it is an inductor, a 23 Ohm coil with a moveable slug. I have an Inductance meter for coils and gobs of electrical stuff to test it when it arrives.


I really am not sure why they makers of these FL washer cannot just make another thing to goose up the water level.

***Maybe it is the ratings, government tests, water police.

There are times with my house rebuild where clothes get rear grubby, and some more water helps.

The actual electrical cost to run one load of clothes is only here about 2 cents, water is in the same range probably too. If the washer with tax say cost 700 bucks and is dead in 1400 washes; the washers cost is 50 cents per load. If it dies in 2800 washes; it is 25 cents per load. Thus here the water worry is absurd.


Post# 482199 , Reply# 44   12/17/2010 at 00:14 (4,877 days old) by pullmyfinger ()        

The cover comes off in 1 minute, just remove 2 screws and slide it back and up.

I'm an auto technician, and had a laugh when someone here posted that these fl's are hard to work on....Really? these are nothing compaired to working on modern day cars.

Even if the spider goes bad in 5 years, I will just replace it and the bearings/seals for 100 bucks and go 5 more.

I may bring home my lab scope from work (used for testing automotive sensors)and graph the wls just for fun and see how it works. How much was a new wls?


Post# 482283 , Reply# 45   12/17/2010 at 08:56 (4,877 days old) by 3beltwesty ()        
Any other issues with other cycles with this mod?

The WLS 6601ER1006E was about 22 with shipping. They vary price between 16 and 30 bucks without shipping.

The spider 4434ER0002A is 60.35 at Sears, not sure what the shipping is. On ebay a guy has them 75 with freight.

I think the failure sequence in supremewhirlpol's machine was the spiders corrosion probably accelerated the seals failure too, then water leaked out and ruined the bearings and got to the hall effect sensor (diagram K351) 6501KW2002A that is 18.36 at sears.

Since you are a car repair guy person repairing a FL washer is easier than the average person.

I wager the average Joe/Jane just junks their FL washer once the spider breaks, since the labor involved kills the project!.

****With a "fake off/hack/mod" like faking off (too much) the Water Level sensor, I wonder if it can get the computer in a bind in the other cycles. ie it running the pump(s) when it still thinks the tub is full and it is way down?


Post# 482295 , Reply# 46   12/17/2010 at 09:31 (4,877 days old) by jlbrazil (brazil)        
My LG rinse water level

Hi guys , here is a pic of my LG rinse water level.
Sorry about the water color , this was a very dirty load haha :)


Post# 482313 , Reply# 47   12/17/2010 at 11:33 (4,877 days old) by Pullmyfinger ()        

****With a "fake off/hack/mod" like faking off (too much) the Water Level sensor, I wonder if it can get the computer in a bind in the other cycles. ie it running the pump(s) when it still thinks the tub is full and it is way down?

Good point Westy. I will watch the behavior during different cycles and see if there are any problems.

I wonder if these machines have different water level calibrations for different countries? jlbrazil's level looks higher than my machine before the mod.


Post# 482314 , Reply# 48   12/17/2010 at 11:45 (4,877 days old) by Pullmyfinger ()        
Copied from Consumer Reports.org

For top-loaders, Roper was one of the more reliable brands and Fisher & Paykel among the more repair-prone brands. LG was the most reliable front-loader brand. That's what we found when we asked over 104,000 readers who bought a clothes washer between 2006 and 2010 about their experiences. The graph shows the percentage of models for each brand that were repaired or had a serious problem. Differences of less than 4 points are not meaningful, and we've adjusted the data to eliminate differences linked solely to the usage and age of the washer. Models within a brand may vary, and changes in design or manufacture may affect future reliability. Still, choosing a brand with a good repair history can improve your odds of getting a reliable model.

Brand Repairs and Serious Problems

Washing Machines (Front Loaders) Percentages of Repairs and Serious Problems



LG 7
Whirlpool 11
Kenmore 11
Frigidaire 11
Maytag 11
Bosch 13
GE 14


Post# 482315 , Reply# 49   12/17/2010 at 11:48 (4,877 days old) by Pullmyfinger ()        
Top loader ratings

Roper 6
Amana 9
Frigidaire 10
Kenmore 10
Whirlpool 10
Maytag 11
GE 12
Fisher & Paykel 15


Post# 482317 , Reply# 50   12/17/2010 at 11:50 (4,877 days old) by jlbrazil (brazil)        
Pullmyfinger...

It has a higher water level , but it is only 2.7cu.
Very small :)


Post# 482318 , Reply# 51   12/17/2010 at 11:58 (4,877 days old) by 3beltwesty ()        
I wonder about past looking data.

I sort of wonder about data that is looking back in time:


Since LG has roughly had front loaders since say 2004? ? ? in the USA, and other brands go alot back farther. Some go to the mid and late 1990's.

Thus my thinking is if both ACME and KILROY FL washer products have 30 percent dead at 10 years and 2 percent at 5 years and 1/5 percent at 1 year, the newer brand gets a better score since its population of machines is younger.

ie if both ACME and KILROY are really the exact same design; if ACME came out in 2000 and KILROY came out in 2005, Kilroy gets a better report card since the bell curve of failures has not being seen yet.



Post# 482324 , Reply# 52   12/17/2010 at 12:30 (4,877 days old) by 3beltwesty ()        
Marketing and Names

When I looked at the Home Depot Amana 4.0 cu. ft. Super Capacity Front Load Washer Model: NFW7300WW that was on sale for $349 ; my brain said that is too low! Thus one sales guy said it was a Maytag, another said it was a Whirlpool. The Patent plate said Whirlpool. They own the Amana brand name.

I thought the old Maytag Neptune line was later made by Samsung and just rebranded.

If one types in NFW7300WW into repair clinics search, it shows Maytag parts for models close to this model number. The drum and spider Item # 1515048 is 207 bucks on a washer that was on sale for 349. A search by Amana has no model numbers listed and has different drum parts. They show no search my Samsung. This I wonder if this is made in the USA or not, since the price was so darn low.

I really did not get a good feeling when a google search really gave no parts like pumps etc for a NFW7300WW, thus my bias was it is a non USA machine with an American name to make folks feel good. I maybe all wet.



Post# 482341 , Reply# 53   12/17/2010 at 14:20 (4,877 days old) by Pullmyfinger ()        

What do we mean by eliminating differences solely due to age and usage?

The published repair index reflects a statistical standardization that controls for the effects of age (and usually) usage on failure rates. We have found that the percent of models that have ever failed generally increases with both age and usage. Since brands in our survey had different age and usage profiles, we standardized data by applying a constant set of weights to repair rates for each brand year and usage category. The resulting index can be interpreted as the percent of models in the analysis that had ever been repaired or had a serious problem that was not repaired -- standardized by the typical age and usage distribution.



Post# 482349 , Reply# 54   12/17/2010 at 16:05 (4,876 days old) by 3beltwesty ()        
What do we mean by eliminating differences solely due to age

What I mean is that in FL washers:

(1) The average LG is only a few years old since they really were not marketed in the USA for along time. As far as a catastrophic failures, LG has few since the age of the population is very young.

(2)A brand like Maytag has FL washers going back over a decade.

(3) Brands like say Kenmore that are built by others had aluminum spider failures folks talked about on websites before LG even sold a FL washer here.


Since corrosion takes a few to many years; LG has few if any field failures of spiders, and a brand like Kenmore has a terrible rash of FL washers spider failures.


Some of these web dialogs have spider failures before LG even sold a FL washer in the USA. There are aluminum spiders that failed in non LG machine over 8 years ago.

Thus a typical report by an actual LG user of a FL washer is not long enough to show a long term major failure rate like a broken spider. If I take the handfull of local folks I know who own LG FL washers, the oldest is just 2 years old, the average maybe 1 year.

If one searches google for aluminum spider corrosion; LG has few if any hits since their average FL washer is newer than a Kenmore. Thus a FL Kenmore looks bad to the average lay reader.





If LG uses a different aluminum alloy that is poorer or better than Acme's spider, one will not know any real failure rate data until there are enough older units around and failures occur.

There are so many variables with corrosion that as an engineer the whole prediction is extremely very hokey. Outside the sacred production line few outsiders know if an alloy was changed, if a casting vendor was changed, what if any specs there are for casting porosity limits in rejecting parts.

Just a wee bit of casting porosity can cause part to fatigue 10 to 50 times sooner.

The whole mess of variables involved with a fatigue failure is large dozen plus multiplication of hokey poor variables that are guesses. Then one adds galvanic corrosion, an unknown type and quantity of soap used, the spin speed, the number of washes done is not known, nor the wash temp, nor the water hardness either. One does not even know the average load in Lbs the basket sees as an imbalance that forces the cyclic fatigue failure.






Supremewhirlpol's documentation of a failed LG aluminum spider might be a rare early failure, or the tip of the iceberg of a mess of failures. Nobody knows, there is not enough failures yet to make a valid statistical model.

Thus here I really hope that my LG is not going to die in 4 years, and last 12 , but have about zero data to make any predictions.

With some other brands that have been around way longer, there are gobs of folks with aluminum spider failures. One can type in the poor old model number and gets a mess of folks complaining about spider failures.



I really think that it is too early to predict LG's reliability in the USA as far as a major breakdown like a broken spider, since there are few failures and the population is so young. It is like saying ACME cigarettes are safer than Chesterfields, but Acme has only made cigarettes for 5 years and somebody died smoking Chesterfields before we were born.


Post# 482355 , Reply# 55   12/17/2010 at 17:45 (4,876 days old) by Pullmyfinger ()        

Westy, post 53 was copied and pasted from CR'S web site, its not my statement. I posted it to help us understand how they rate repair stats with adjustments for age.

Post# 482505 , Reply# 56   12/18/2010 at 14:00 (4,876 days old) by 3beltwesty ()        

From post 48:

Brand Repairs and Serious Problems

Washing Machines (Front Loaders) Percentages of Repairs and Serious Problems



LG 7
Whirlpool 11
Kenmore 11
Frigidaire 11
Maytag 11
Bosch 13
GE 14


**I guess I do not see how CR can "adjust the data with age" for a LG FL washer; since they have not been sold here too many year.

Ie the chap in the link below bought a Kenmore FL washer in 2001 and it died with a broken aluminum spider in 2007.

I just wonder how CR can say with any validity that LG is better (less Repairs and Serious Problems
)than all other FL brands, when they have not been sold here for so long.

I would expect LG's rating to become more like the others, as the units grow older and there is more real data.


CLICK HERE TO GO TO 3beltwesty's LINK


Post# 482512 , Reply# 57   12/18/2010 at 14:36 (4,876 days old) by 3beltwesty ()        
Subject change; washers load sense , bars reading and waster

The manual says that the beginning load sense "determines the weight" for the water level it uses. This shows up then as 1,2,3 or 4 bars,.

In my usage; most all loads only make 1 bar show. Last night 2 bars showed up. In all my limited usages; say 2 dozens loads, 3 bars showed up only once and I had the thing full of stuff.

The computer is sensing for motors extra Torque required, either the torque ripple, or added torque because the basket has more stuff.



Post# 482594 , Reply# 58   12/18/2010 at 21:29 (4,875 days old) by pullmyfinger ()        

I have never seen 4 bars, even with large towels full of water added for weight.

Post# 482637 , Reply# 59   12/19/2010 at 07:11 (4,875 days old) by jlbrazil (brazil)        
Load sensing

My LG doesn't use bars , but after the sensing rotation it says how heavy the load is in kg.
Almost everything it says 4kg , but with a full load of Towels it says 8kg , wich is the maximum that it can hold :)


Post# 484196 , Reply# 60   12/25/2010 at 10:00 (4,869 days old) by Jetcone (Schenectady-Home of Calrods,Monitor Tops,Toroid Transformers)        
Rob and 3belt!! This is a HOT thread

jetcone's profile picture
thanks for figuring it out! Now I want to get into an LG and muck about! I have been wondering how the water sensor worked, it is a "tuned circuit" so there should be an easy electrical work around with a tunable resistor!

Love the PVC mod that is nice and permanent and classy!

Thanks Jetcone


Post# 484206 , Reply# 61   12/25/2010 at 11:22 (4,869 days old) by pullmyfinger ()        
Final dimensions

Your welcome Jet. After some testing, I ended up with a 2"X58" PVC tube to achieve the water level I want.

Works fine with all wash cycles as well as the rinse/spin only cycle.



Post# 484582 , Reply# 62   12/27/2010 at 14:25 (4,867 days old) by Jetcone (Schenectady-Home of Calrods,Monitor Tops,Toroid Transformers)        
I was thinking on this

jetcone's profile picture
and started reading again about tuned LCR circuits, which this is one.
I bet one could insert a tuner capacitor to regulate the water level!

must get out my phsics texts again!


Post# 484587 , Reply# 63   12/27/2010 at 15:06 (4,867 days old) by 3beltwesty ()        
LG Pressure Sensor 6601ER1006E.

Pressure Sensor is Diagram A410 6601ER1006E.

The one I have here that I have taken apart has 3 terminals.

It has a coil/inductor across the outboard terminals.

The center terminal connects to two 22 nanoFarad film capacitors in series.

One has the coil in parallel with the two 22 nF Caps in series.

The diaphragm is just like a normal washer pressure sensor, but it connects to the Ferrite core/slug that is inside the coil.





When one measures across one capacitor with a B&K 875 LRC meter; it measures about 46nF at 1 Khz test freq, since it sees it really as two 22nF caps in paralle1.



to model it better I need to remove the two caps and just measure the coil by itself.

The unit I have is marked 5V, but it is totally a passive device.






Post# 484704 , Reply# 64   12/28/2010 at 00:22 (4,866 days old) by Jetcone (Schenectady-Home of Calrods,Monitor Tops,Toroid Transformers)        
Interesting

jetcone's profile picture
#2 is going to measure the same frequency ,no matter the direction of current. Thats why its take off is between the two capacitors and why they are identical in capacitance.
SO the machine control board must be sending an AC signal through this circuit in order to see the tuning change = the frequency change as the core to the coil moves.

So 3belt, can you measure the frequency applied by the machine control board with the LRC meter?


Post# 484738 , Reply# 65   12/28/2010 at 08:45 (4,866 days old) by 3beltwesty ()        
"water level frequency".

The B&K 875 LCR meter here uses a fixed 1 Khz test signal.

To see what the WM2501 LG washer senses as the frequency, one pushes the CUSTOM and PRE-WASH buttons at the same time.


This gives off digits on the display of the washer.

One takes this number and multiplys by 0.1 and adds 20 to give the frequency in Khz.

Thus a reading of 42 on the display is = ( 42* 0.1 ) + 20 = 4.2 +20 = 24.2 Khz.

The jargon used by LG is "water level frequency", odd but it sticks.

FOR testing with no load in the washer; WASH/RINSE and SPIN SPEED buttons are pressed at the same time, along with POWER too. The START/PAUSE then cycles thru the test modes. The display reads in either rpm; water level frequency; or steam generator temp.


Post# 486450 , Reply# 66   1/4/2011 at 22:42 (4,858 days old) by pullmyfinger ()        

Westy, my WM2501 does not have a "custom" button? Humm...

Post# 486495 , Reply# 67   1/5/2011 at 08:31 (4,858 days old) by 3beltwesty ()        
Manual is in error

The comment about the "Frequency by ... one pushes the CUSTOM and PRE-WASH buttons at the same time." is out of the offical LG service manual for the WM2501HV , thus it is in error.


Errors like this happen in manuals, they writers "cut and paste" and use an older manual as the template.

We will have to experiment to we what two buttons are required thus by experiment, it it probably a PRE-WASH button and another is my wild guess. I did this a few weeks back and did not even realize the manual is in error.


Post# 486518 , Reply# 68   1/5/2011 at 10:36 (4,858 days old) by Pullmyfinger ()        

Westy, do you have an online source for a service or training manual for the WM2501? Thanks!

Post# 486524 , Reply# 69   1/5/2011 at 11:11 (4,858 days old) by 3beltwesty ()        
poor manual at best

The manual I got is a hodge podge of printed pages, a physical copy that cost about 55 bucks. It is printed on metric above 11x17, not sure if I can scan it. The page order is such all pages are there, but the order is scrambled, reversed, mixed.

Some of the older LG manuals are far better. This manual does not even have a parts list like in the Sears link up the thread. Thus if the diagram has say part S101 for the stator; there is no table with the LG part number like Sears has.


It is more of a thrown together partial manual at best, and a real expensive one.

Sears has the same manual cheaper; but they will not sell it to morals. One has to be in their inner service/click group to buy the manual.


I do not think the service manual exists on the web, I tried gobs of searches. To find a seller of the paper manual was tough too. I only found Sears as a vendor; then used the LG part number Sears had to find another seller


Post# 486529 , Reply# 70   1/5/2011 at 11:48 (4,858 days old) by Pullmyfinger ()        

My added volume mod has failed. It worked fine for several weeks, then without warning started over-filling.

After removing the added mod, I removed the WLS and dissected it. I found that by simply turning the threaded cap on top clockwise, increasing spring pressure on the diaphram, the frequency would increase thus allowing for a higher water level.

Removal of the WLS is not needed, the threaded cap can be turned easily with a screwdriver in its current location. Simply turn the cap during the fill cycle but before the circulation pump begins.


Post# 486798 , Reply# 71   1/6/2011 at 16:12 (4,856 days old) by 3beltwesty ()        
Possible Button Sequence for Water Level Frequency

Last night during a wash with the WM2501HVA I tried many different combos of "pushing two buttons", sort of like a 2 year old or Monkey! :)

I found one set that may of may not be the "Water Level Frequency" number that is used in the calculation.

The two buttons were the small black Steam button and Giant Wash/Rinse button. One time the reading was 24, another 41 on the time readout. Sometimes no number appears; or there is a delay. The manual says the water level display number can is 25 to 65 in one place.

a reading of 24 would be 20 + (24 * 0.1 ) = 22.4 Khz

a reading of 41 would be 20 + (41 * 0.1 ) = 24.1 Khz


Next time I will note the part of the cycle in use.




Post# 486985 , Reply# 72   1/7/2011 at 10:44 (4,856 days old) by Jetcone (Schenectady-Home of Calrods,Monitor Tops,Toroid Transformers)        
That adjustment makes sense

jetcone's profile picture
Pullmyfinger, the spring pressure increases the force needed to send the iron plunger up the core, which translates to a higher head of water in the drum.

No one has spotted that screw before, can you photo it and post it?

I did the same Mod on my Speed Queen but that WLS has 5 screws so I had to tear it down to see which ones neede to be turned.
Thanks

jet


Post# 487005 , Reply# 73   1/7/2011 at 12:14 (4,856 days old) by 3beltwesty ()        

The screw on the sensor makes the sensor produceable at a lower cost. Each is probably adjusted when built and gooped.

I probably should have posted an image of the extra sensor I bought to show the top piece with the screw.

In some LG manuals/models the reading the LG machines "number" and just dviding by 10. With the WM2501HV the manual has that divide by 10 and add 20 equation.

The link below is a traing manual for another LG washer; it has a lot of cool info,


CLICK HERE TO GO TO 3beltwesty's LINK


Post# 487458 , Reply# 74   1/9/2011 at 03:34 (4,854 days old) by pullmyfinger ()        

Jet, I already put everything back together. Maybe Westy can post a pic of the top of the WLS.

Post# 706924 , Reply# 75   10/3/2013 at 01:11 (3,856 days old) by pipesster ()        
LG waterlevel screw adjustment

need ing a bit more water in my LG
After reading this post I put a ruler in my lg 1069 and measured the fill level. it measured just 5" at the back of the drum. It pumped out less than 5 gallons on drain cycle.
I turned the water level screw clockwise 1 full turn and re-measured, the drum filled to just under 7" at the back, about an inch up on the glass door.
It pumped out about 8.2 gallons on drain, at 8lbs a gallon thats an extra 25 lbs weight in the drum so backed the switch up 3/4 turn and filled again. filled to 5.5 inches just covering the door gasket not touching the glass, this time pumped out just under 6 gallons on drain.
So looks like 1/2 turn = 1" in water level, and roughly 1/4 turn = 1gallon or 8 extra LB in the drum, which loads up the suspension and bearings more, decreasing longevity exponentially with each additional gallon.


Post# 706929 , Reply# 76   10/3/2013 at 01:22 (3,856 days old) by pipesster ()        
waterlevel adjusting screw

Heres a pic of the waterlevel sw, its one of those frequency measuring jobs.
need large phillips, like a p3.
As I posted , 1turn = 2" clockwise to raise level
Also there is an adjustment in the programming presets but had already set that to "high" to get the original 5" level it started at.
At 1/4 turn should add about 3 to 4 gallons to the total cycle, will see how this does.


Post# 706930 , Reply# 77   10/3/2013 at 01:28 (3,856 days old) by pipesster ()        

Heres a pic with switch adjusted 1 full turn, you can see the water on the glass, about 8 gallons!
up from less than 5


Post# 709443 , Reply# 78   10/15/2013 at 12:03 (3,844 days old) by rayjay (Carteret, New Jersey)        
Samsung

Get yourself a Samsung front loader. A few turns and you will get all the water you want. Start out slow, then increase till you get the desired amount.



Post# 733361 , Reply# 79   2/6/2014 at 13:27 (3,730 days old) by blkair ()        
LG Top Loader

I never had sufficient water levels to consider enough water to do a proper wash -- had the water level sensor checked and replaced and the test was correct -- didn't fix the issue -- my "end run" is to wet the clothes - drain - and restart - I guess the added density fools it into giving a full drum of water which is necessary for bedding and towels

I would certainly welcome a permenant fix for this --


Post# 733362 , Reply# 80   2/6/2014 at 13:43 (3,730 days old) by laundromat (Hilo, Hawaii)        

laundromat's profile picture
My LG ( model# WM2277HS ) also has the adjustable screw enabling you to adjust its water level. It also has a recirculating spray that has a wide spray of recirculating wash or rinse water onto the load. I truly love it and it's cousin ( model WM8000 ) that has a bit more activities going on inside and is gigantic in capacity.

Post# 733927 , Reply# 81   2/9/2014 at 07:58 (3,727 days old) by HotpointWMA64 (North Yorkshire)        
why would you want more water?

lg machines are very good at cleaning and most of them have jets- preventing the need of much water, the waterlevels your presenting are quite high for any machines made over the past 10 years because companies have thought of ways to make them more economical, to me i dont really care about how much water they use because at the end of the day it goes back into the environment once done with, but even with low water levels they do good or even better jobs. machines have much higher wash ratings than they used to do with less water.

regards.


Post# 736119 , Reply# 82   2/18/2014 at 16:55 (3,717 days old) by powrbruh (Odenton, MD)        
I Made The Water Level Adjustment On My LG WM8000

Today, I decided to make the water level adjustment by turning the screw about 1 1/4 to 1 1/2 turns. I am so glad I did. Sometimes, I felt my washer did not use enough water especially for larger loads. Usually, I ended up adding more water which can get a little irritating sometimes.

Before making the adjustment, I measured about 2" of the water at the back of drum. I did as you guys instructed and I noticed there was considerably more water. I didn't want alot more. Just enough to really wet and clean the clothes. The water now reaches the front of the drum. I didn't want it coming up to the glass. I thought that would be too much.

I can see the water now. I can hear the difference in the sloshing when the clothes are tumbling. The rinse cycles uses more water as well. This is really good for me since I have skin allergies.

I fell in love with my machine all over again.


Post# 739401 , Reply# 83   3/5/2014 at 07:45 (3,703 days old) by peirhead ()        
LG low water levels

"Also there is an adjustment in the programming presets but had already set that to "high" to get the original 5" level it started at. "

What adjustment are you referring to here? (I have a WM2250) I looked at the water level sensor and it does have the philips adjusment screw but appears glued down, so I am looking to be sure I am getting as much water as possible.


Post# 751919 , Reply# 84   4/22/2014 at 12:45 (3,655 days old) by johnmk ()        

Does the Permanent Press cycle use more water than Cotton/Normal? I think mine uses a little bit more water but I don't have enough data to be certain of my observations. It seems to use the same tumbling motion as Cotton/Normal, but with a couple more seconds pause between each ~5 second tumbling cycle.

Post# 752032 , Reply# 85   4/22/2014 at 21:31 (3,654 days old) by mickeyd (Hamburg NY)        

mickeyd's profile picture

PP fills up to the bottom of the window, somewhere between 4&5 gallons. I thought mine slowed down the tumbling a bit toward the end of the wash cycle,  but it could have been an illusion, a flashback to the reduced speeds in the vintage toploader permanent press cycles.

 

I would really appreciate learning if the wash speeds ARE indeed variable, because I honestly can't tell. For sure there are some slow half turns on the hand wash cycle, and some rapid hurling spins, and half turn whirls on others, but when the machine is simply tumbling regularly, it all looks the same to me on any of the cycles.  Is that the case?  The stingy manual says nothing about speed except for spinning. 


Post# 752053 , Reply# 86   4/22/2014 at 23:35 (3,654 days old) by mark_wpduet (Lexington KY)        
A while back -

mark_wpduet's profile picture
I tried to make the adjustment on my Duet per instructions on the net......but I could NOT get it right. It was so strange.......I would turn the screw just a little bit....Nothing would happen.....same water level.......then I would continue doing the same thing in VERY small intervals..and it was is I was doing absolutely nothing.......until all of the sudden it wouldn't stop filling with water.....it got SCARY high before it stopped filling...There was no slight increase each time. It just went from one extreme to the other...So I turned the screw back and said to hell with it......because in all honestly, it seems to use an OK amount of water anyway......If I could change anything I would want it to add only a couple of more gallons, that's it....but I got scared of messing with it.

Post# 754317 , Reply# 87   5/1/2014 at 22:53 (3,645 days old) by johnmk ()        

To the poster with the LG WM2250, just turn it with enough force and the screw will turn despite the modest application of glue. I've verified that it has the intended effect. I found two full 360 degree turns (that's 4 half turns) added a lot more water, way more than necessary, to the point where it certainly doesn't wash as well as default settings because the abundant water creates a cushion for the clothes and there's much less effective agitation. I really think this adjustment presents dubious benefits as after a point, all you're really doing is soaking the clothes and they're not really turning over, absorbing, and then expelling water when they go splat back down to the bottom of the basket. I didn't test any other settings, since it's not my washer (I have an LG WM3470 which might not need as much water since the recirculating jets function so well) and I didn't have enough time. Wish I could have stayed to see how much water was used in the rinse cycle, that would have been entertaining, but I had to leave.

At some point in the future I'll try this adjustment on my WM3470, perhaps half a turn is all I'll use, as I feel that LG got it relatively close to the mark with default settings, though I must admit to being a touch more comfortable with the slightly more water generous Permanent Press cycle.


Post# 754547 , Reply# 88   5/2/2014 at 20:37 (3,644 days old) by Mich (Hells Kitchen - New York)        
I know someting about LG Machines

mich's profile picture

On The Perm Press, Delicate & Hand Wash, the water level sensor is deactivated. 

 

If one desires, lots & lots, of H20. One Finds, hitting the tub clean button, after, turning off the machine, and turning it back on, fills it 1/3 way up the door. It's mix of Both the Hot & Cold lines (although you could turn either off if you wanted). Once Complete, just press the power button, and turn it back on again. And select a cycle (without a water level sensor) and proceed from there. 

 

I'm starting to become more kind to the thought, of LG Machines. This the most simplest, water level control I've ever encountered. 


Post# 754635 , Reply# 89   5/3/2014 at 05:16 (3,644 days old) by Mich (Hells Kitchen - New York)        
I forgot to add...

mich's profile picture

LG Machines, do calculate the amount of water in the drum, and once measured, use the same amount of water for the rinses as it did with the main wash. So, once you've got it filled to your desired amount your good. 



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