Thread Number: 32209
unfairness |
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Post# 485930 , Reply# 1   1/2/2011 at 20:36 (4,723 days old) by qsd-dan (West)   |   | |
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That has been one of my arguments for a while now. If I can go any Chevy dealership and buy a gas guzzling V-8 that gets about the same gas mileage as they did in the 1960's, why can't I buy a water guzzling washer/dishwasher/toilet that uses the same amount of water as was used the 60's? Hey, if I'm willing to pay for the extra amount of water (gas in an auto), then there should be options for me to purchase one. I can also apply that logic to quality of design and parts which is also regulated, 'cause God forbid we apply a little more metal here and there for a longer lasting design.
But we're talking about a perfect world where logic is exclusively used. We can't have that now, can we ;) |
Post# 485977 , Reply# 2   1/2/2011 at 23:58 (4,723 days old) by A440 ()   |   | |
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I so agree with you guys! It really pisses me off! Brent |
Post# 485987 , Reply# 3   1/3/2011 at 01:43 (4,723 days old) by Launderess ![]() |
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Appliance makers from opting out of the "Energy Star" program. Problem is consumers have been led like so many sheep to look for that label, that it is doubtful how many units not marked otherwise would sell.
More proof of the above (appliances being a mature market), is seen in how only a handful of companies own almost every major appliance brand name, past and present. Maytag would have gone to the Chinese if Whirlpool didn't act, and that is a sad comment on the state of affairs. Aside from new bells and whistles, the laundry appliance market is rather mature, especially for top loaders in the United States.There just isn't that huge a market to warrant the costs for R&D and everything else. Now Maytag (ahem, Whirlpool), and the lot could simply bring back their water guzzling top loaders, but state and local governments have weapons at their disposal. Here in NYC at least our water rates keep going up, to the point that during last summer's sparse rain, many homeowners didn't water their lawns much if at all. Aside from parts of NJ, there wasn't a drought, just people didn't wish to pay huge water bills. It is far eaiser and cheaper to take the Energy Star money from the federal government than fight. This is how I see things. |
Post# 485991 , Reply# 4   1/3/2011 at 03:26 (4,723 days old) by ronhic (Canberra, Australia)   |   | |
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It is an interesting thought, but we certainly get them here for those that want them.
To put that into perspective, Speed Queen has recently come back onto our market under its own name, rather than being rebadged 'Kleenmaid'. In the last round of Choice tests, and rated at 7.5kg by Speed Queen, it scored 64% for dirt removal and used 166 litres of water (that's 43 US Gallons!). The only thing it actually did well was rinse, scoring 86% which is excellent. By comparison, the slightly larger capacity (8kg v's 7.5kg) Simpson Ezi Sensor, also a top loader, scored 76% dirt removal and used 85 litres of water to do it....thats 22 US gallons. Rinse performance was deemed OK at 67%. Additionally, the Fisher and Paykel Aquasmart 8kg machine removed 81%, nearly equalled the rinse effectiveness of the Speed Queen at 74% and used less water again with 76 litres (just under 19.5 gallons). I suppose my point is that water hungry appliances have seen their day for the average consumer. Our market sells both and quite simply, most people don't want them. This is evident when you look at the number that are now available compared to even a couple of years ago - manufacturers are simply not going to keep making something that isn't selling. Now if this is purely because many councils offer an incentive to purchase an efficient machine, I don't know, and water isn't that expensive that it would dissuade someone who wanted a more traditional machine from buying one, but when you can get results from an efficient machine as I mention above, why would you wish, as seems to be the case of the vast majority of Australians, to buy one that is going to cost you more to run in the longer term? Oh, and before anyone mentions reliability and Speed Queen in the same sentence, Kleenmaid, who used to rebadge Speed Queen for our market are rated 3rd from the bottom out of 13 brands....only time will tell if this has changed. |
Post# 485993 , Reply# 5   1/3/2011 at 04:15 (4,723 days old) by DADoES ![]() |
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![]() So-called "water-guzzling" deep-fill toploaders are still available under several brands. Kenmore/Whirlpool/Maytag/Roper/Estate, Frigidaire, GE, Fisher & Paykel, Speed Queen. Frigidaire FTW3014KW Frigidaire FTW3011KW Fisher & Paykel EcoSmart WA42T26GW1 GE GTWP1000MWW GE GTWP2000MWW GE GTWP2005MCC GE GTWN3000MWS GE GTWN4000MWS Maytag MVWC200XW Maytag MVWC300VW Roper RTW4100WQ Roper RTW4440VQ Estate ETW4100SQ Estate ETW4400WQ Speed Queen AWN542 Speed Queen AWN432 Speed Queen AWN412 Speed Queen AWN311 Whirlpool WTW4800XQ Whirlpool WTW5590VQ Whirlpool WTW57ESVW Kenmore 800 Kenmore 400 Kenmore 2120 Kenmore 2110 Hotpoint HTWP1000MWW Inglis IV4800 Inglis IV4600 Inglis IV4500 Inglis ITW4300SQ |
Post# 485994 , Reply# 6   1/3/2011 at 04:24 (4,723 days old) by Launderess ![]() |
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Whislt one loves my little portable *vintage* Whirlpool, the Miele is streets ahead in terms of cleaning performace.
While some top loading washers may be going the way of the Dodo, think government should have left front loaders alone, or perhaps developed a different standard. Contrary to common thought, it does not require large amounts of water to launder well in a H-Axis washer. However you do need lots of water to rinse, and that seems to be where the current crop of US offerings seem to fall short. |
Post# 486005 , Reply# 7   1/3/2011 at 05:39 (4,723 days old) by ronhic (Canberra, Australia)   |   | |
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Post# 486011 , Reply# 9   1/3/2011 at 07:27 (4,723 days old) by Frigilux ![]() |
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The energy-saving/low water-use appliances I have perform excellently.
Frigidaire FL Washer: uses 13-14 gallons to wash a large load of clothes. No problem with cleaning. I've adjusted to seeing no water in the tub. As long as clothes are cleaned and rinsed and spun dry I just let it do its job. I've given it several tough cleaning tests (you'll recall the mud/oil muck test I posted here a few months ago) and I'll bet it performs as well as or better than any top-loader, vintage or new. LG 9810 Dishwasher: uses 3.5-5 gallons for a normal load. The machine cleans better than any I've had, including KitchenAid, Whirlpool, Frigidaire and Maytag (the Maytag was the cleaning champ before the LG). 2007 Frigidaire Top-Freezer Refrigerator: uses substantially less energy than even my 2002 Frigidaire refrigerator, with no loss in performance. Gerber Power-Assist Flushing Toilet: uses 1.6 gallons per flush. Never fails to do its job on one flush. CFL Bulbs: I switched my entire house over to these about five years ago. Quite by accident, I purchased them all at Home Depot, whose 'house brand' bulbs produce a better quality of light, and achieve full brightness faster than many others (according to subsequent test results in Consumer Reports). Having said that, I believe LED "bulbs" will usurp the CFL, as they use even less energy and will have no mercury/disposal issues. I will concede there are some really awful CFL's out there. My local utility gave each household one to try. It produced a weird greenish light and was quite dim for the first 20 seconds. I returned it, and told them they weren't going to convert anyone with those lousy examples of CFLs. 1994 Geo Prizm LE Sedan: 240,000 miles on it and it still gets 39-41 mpg. on the highway. It's by far the most reliable vehicle I've ever owned. I've saved thousands in repair bills as compared to GM and Ford autos I've owned in the past in addition to fuel savings. (The Geo Prizm is a rebadged Toyota Corolla, for those not familiar with the model.) I'm sure there are crappy energy saving appliances out there, just as there has always been crappy energy hogging appliances. But to contend that all energy/water saving appliances are inferior in performance is simply not true. Buy appliances that perform well and save energy/water. I don't understand this knee-jerk reaction against energy savings. Does it feed our egos or make us feel more powerful/dominant to use more energy/fuel/water than is necessary to maintain a comfortable existence? Part of this mentality comes from having had subsidized, cheap energy available to us all our lives. That will change in our lifetimes. There's going to be a very tough, expensive period in the gap between the "tipping point" of fossil fuel reserves and the growth of alternative sources of energy---again, because there's little rush to acquire new technologies when fossil fuels are still relatively inexpensive. Back to vehicles: Don't forget the automobile lobby has the oil lobby as its ally. Together, they are far more powerful than any appliance lobby could possibly be. As China and India raise their standard of living and thus consume more oil, prices for fossil fuels in this country will rise to heights we've never experienced. There is already talk of $4.50-5.00 gasoline within a couple of years. I can assure you that many people driving a 14-mpg Chevrolet Tahoe will quickly reassess their vehicular needs. On the other hand, when fuel prices climb that high, and wages for workers in Mexico/China/India/Korea increase, some manufacturers may be forced to move their production centers back to the US. This post was last edited 01/03/2011 at 09:00 |
Post# 486014 , Reply# 10   1/3/2011 at 08:19 (4,723 days old) by ronhic (Canberra, Australia)   |   | |
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Post# 486015 , Reply# 11   1/3/2011 at 08:23 (4,723 days old) by mrb627 (Buford, GA)   |   | |
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I suspect that there are efficient machines that are poorly executed. That is you may have two machines that are equally efficient but one might utilize resources better than the other. Like both machines use 8 gallons of water, but one uses more in the wash phase and less in the rinse while the other uses more water for rinsing and less in the wash... Malcolm |
Post# 486033 , Reply# 15   1/3/2011 at 10:09 (4,723 days old) by hoover1100 (U.K.)   |   | |
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Could NOT have put it better myself! |
Post# 486066 , Reply# 19   1/3/2011 at 13:19 (4,723 days old) by Frigilux ![]() |
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I don't think today's appliances are lousy because they use less water/energy. Washers don't give out in 8 years because they're highly efficient; they give out in 8 years because of the quality of the parts put in them. We choose not to have them serviced and repaired because the cost of doing that is prohibitive. Our built-like-a-tank 1960 Kenmore washer needed servicing many times during its life. The difference is that it was far cheaper to have the washer serviced than to replace it. That's not so true, today. |
Post# 486087 , Reply# 20   1/3/2011 at 14:38 (4,723 days old) by kenmoreguy64 ![]() |
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I think we have a couple things going on here worth talking about.
First, the difference between automobiles and appliances is not a men vs. women thing, not in my opinion anyway, it's just a difference in the loudness of the consumer market voices who relay their opinions. Far-be-it from any consumer group, company, or even government agency to tell the American driver what they can drive and what they can't. We WERE in the early 1980s in a very energy-conscious, conservative time in automotive history, and Ford, GM and other brands responded with smaller vehicles, and with smaller engines which at the time were how we tried to make vehicles burn less fuel per driver. In the early 80s we DID NOT have the variety of vehicles on the market which got fuel mileage figures as we have now. For example, four out of the eleven houses on our street in 1982 had the GM midsize sedan as their family main car - today that same group would probably have a mid-size or full-size 4x4 SUV, and I'd bet the GMs of 1982 got better mileage. My point is that consumers play a very huge part in both markets. Consumers wanted cars with performance beginning in the mid-80s, as we forgot about oil prices, and we dug ourselves our own hole from which we now are digging out. We never should have started to purchase the 12-16mpg SUVs in the first place, not in the huge numnbers we have done for so many years. Appliances on the other hand don't have the passion behind them in consumer's minds, and if one is more energy efficient, we like that. It doesn't get parked in our driveways and garages, we don't have status symbols with our washing machines, or appliance fantasies, and thus consumers don't care in the masses that this year's dishwasher uses less water than last year's, and that its cleaning performance may have suffered. The Eneregy Star and similar focuses have driven appliance design as a result of the market, just as we found more guzzling SUVs on the market for the same reason - consumer demand. The build-quality of parts and overall machines is a direct response to consumer demand too. Prices for appliances have NOT risen with inflation, in fact I paid $100 LESS in 2010 for my Admiral washer than I did for my generally equivalent Kenmore 70 belt-drive in 1986. Think about that for a moment. At a similar time though, the 2004 Mustang I bought in 7/04 was more than 2.5 times more expensive than the 1984 Mustang I bought in 10/84. Employ this same logic now on the price of washers, and $358 multiplied by 2.5 would yield a $895 top-load washer on the market today. If we were willing to pay that price (are we? NO), then we might get similar build quality. In a summary, I think we have nobody to blame but ourselves as a mass of consumers for both the state of the automotive scene AND the state of appliances (in terms of appliance quality, price, and energy use). I think the U.S. government may be gradually nudging the market with legislation to make sure we don't fall off the wagon like we did with the automotive industry. |
Post# 486138 , Reply# 21   1/3/2011 at 17:48 (4,723 days old) by RevvinKevin ![]() |
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![]() "If I can go any Chevy dealership and buy a gas guzzling V-8 that gets about the same gas mileage as they did in the 1960's, why can't I buy a water guzzling washer/dishwasher/toilet that uses the same amount of water as was used the 60's?" Dan, a comment and 2 questions: Today's V8's (all engines in general) are much more efficient then those of the past. Try to get mid 20's or better MPG out of a 1960's - early 70's Corvette, V8 Camaro or Mustang like you can in today's models, it's not gonna happen. You'll be lucky if you get high-teen's or even 20 mpg. And my questions: Why do you need to use SO much water when washing clothes/dishes? And what are you flushing down the toilet that 1.6 gallons won't handle? Are you one of those that uses a 1/2 a roll of toilet paper each time you use the toilet? I don't mean to offend, I'm just asking. I have the low flush toilets never have any problems. Friglux, Launderess, ronhic, Dadoes, Kenmoreguy64, heck, everyone makes some VERY good points! To echo Hoover1100... as much as I love vintage top load machines, they are often rougher on fabrics and use a lot more energy and water in the process. I cannot justify using a vintage top loader as an every day machine myself, but they are fun for the occasional use! I much prefer using a front load washer because it uses a lot less water, holds a lot more clothes and does a great job cleaning everything. Sure most of the new FL machines use so little water (on the normal cycle) that it's ridiculous and mine is no exception, but then I don't see the need to have the water level 1/2 way up the door glass either. Once I learned my 2009 Kenmore Elite Steam washer uses more water on the "Express" and "Bulky Items" cycles, I use those most of the time. See the photos below. It may not be easy to see, but the "bulky items" fill is about a 1/2 inch (or so) higher then the "express" fill. Personally I'm OK with low flush toilets and more efficient washers. I'm all for preserving our planet and it's natural resources. Why do we need to be so wasteful? Kevin ![]() |
Post# 486159 , Reply# 24   1/3/2011 at 18:57 (4,722 days old) by ronhic (Canberra, Australia)   |   | |
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...we don't...
People get a tad too hung up on various governments trying to encourage socially and environmentally responsible use of resources.....many think they are being 'TOLD' or 'FORCED' into doing things.... ...in some respects, they are correct, and Americans inparticular are more likely than others to buck up at any government telling them what they can and can't do as individuals. So, they choose a different path and target corporate bottom lines with incentives (efficient machines) or fines (CAFE fuel economy average) and then further target the individual with an incentive...rebates from local authorities and disincentives, increased utility charges or higher fuel taxes to encourage them to do the 'right' thing. Sure, you as a householder may well be the one paying the bills and want that choice, but as 'citizens' of a country there is a very strong arguement that there is in fact an OBLIGATION to consider the next person/neighbour who is entitled to access that particular resource, be it water, petrol, food etc....just as you are entitled. The simple facts of the matter are that there is only so much water on the planet...and nature sends it where she does. Most is not usable to sustain life and many country's, the USA included, have gone through periods of extreme drought in various areas....living through that will certainly make a person think twice about using more water than absolutely required to get the task done.... For the first time in nearly 20years our dams are at 100% capacity, yet we are still on water restrictions to some degree. Goulburn, a town about 60miles from here, was at one point nearly out of water (around 15% capacity). They had had no significant rain for years. Gardens were dead, cars were dirty and people were restricted to 25 gallons of water per person per day for EVERYTHING....people were using their washing machine and dish water (not dishwasher) to keep 100yr old trees alive and to flush the toilet with... Live in that environment for a while and not only will you be TOLD, but you will be FORCED to do the right thing. People who were caught here watering gardens when we were on stage 4 restrictions (2nd strictest) a couple of years ago had their water turned down on the council side of the meter to a trickle AND copped a fine into the bargain... So really, using more than you need isn't just bad, in this country it is deemed downright irresponsible and you'll get more tut-tutting than an unwed mother living in sin in the 1940's would have by wasting resources.... Now, should we have a chat about recycling? |
Post# 486164 , Reply# 25   1/3/2011 at 19:10 (4,722 days old) by ronhic (Canberra, Australia)   |   | |
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No, they're not bad at all.....
Ultimately, you don't NEED scalding hot water or much water to rinse if the machine is set up correctly. The vast majority of Australians wash in cold water to save money (most hot water heaters here are still electric storage)....and our consumer magazine tests machines and detergents in cold water.... We didn't need any incentive (says I who still wash in warm water....) as a population, apart from saving money, to switch to cold water. Manufacturers still offer machines that will take hot water direct from the tank at whatever temperature is available and are not penalised for doing so.... Further more, the vast majority of front-load machines here are cold water connect only and heat to whatever temperature you select and it wasn't that long ago that top loaders could be had with heaters too....our energy rating labels take account of this by telling consumers how much power each machine used for the 'energy label' cycle. We have a similar label for water efficiency. So basically, we are informed the moment we look at a machine/toilet/dryer/TV as to how much that unit will use given certain parameters.... CLICK HERE TO GO TO ronhic's LINK |
Post# 486165 , Reply# 26   1/3/2011 at 19:12 (4,722 days old) by ronhic (Canberra, Australia)   |   | |
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Post# 486220 , Reply# 27   1/3/2011 at 22:22 (4,722 days old) by qsd-dan (West)   |   | |
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Today's V8's (all engines in general) are much more efficient then those of the past. Try to get mid 20's or better MPG out of a 1960's - early 70's Corvette, V8 Camaro or Mustang like you can in today's models, it's not gonna happen. You'll be lucky if you get high-teen's or even 20 mpg.
I was waiting for someone to comment on that topic ;) It isn't efficiency that has brought us increased MPG's in modern day V-8's, it's gearing, more specifically, overdrive transmissions. Install an OD transmission in a 60's car with a stock engine and a proper tune, and you'll get the same, if not better, MPG's. Better? Yup. Why? Because EFI engines are tuned to burn a strict 14.7:1 fuel ratio during cruising speeds. Get any leaner than that and NOX starts to rise. On the other hand, we didn't care about NOX back in the day, so carbed engines ran as lean as 17:1 during part throttle cruising speeds, hence better MPG's. What?! So you're saying EFI engines are dumping extra fuel into the cylinders and out the exhaust (and your pocket book) just to lower NOX? Uh-huh ;) Considering the fact that older cars generally weigh a ton, and couple that with the fact that their aerodynamics are worse than a brick, it really is impressive what they can pull off MPG wise with an OD trans and carefully selected differential gears. Back in the late 1980's when I became interested my grandfathers 1959 Pontiac, he used to rave how it got 20 MPG's at 65 MPH with a carload of kids and gear. What? A 4,300 pound wagon with a big ass gas guzzling 389 w/ a 4 barrel carb getting 20 MPG? Riiiiiiight. It wasn't until years later that I found out it's indeed true, even with today’s crappy gas. Why? Gearing. Pontiacs (as well as Cadillacs and Oldsmobiles of the time) had 4 speed auto transmissions with an insane 3.96 first gear. Hell, the 2.55 second gear was steeper than first gear on any other auto trans or manual transmission at that time. But they were also equipped with rear end gears as low as 2.56. This combo gave you more than enough power to get moving in the lower gears, but the engine was only turning 2000 RPM’s on the highway. I know a guy with a '59 Bonneville who removed the original 3.08 gears and installed 2.56 gears. He gets slightly more than 25 MPG on the highway in that 4,500 beast and can light up both tires at a standstill with a Safe-T-Track (posi) rear end! Why do you need to use SO much water when washing clothes Because my clothes get more than office dust on 'em ;) Remember, WATER is the main ingredient for getting clothes clean. Dump a bunch of soap on clothes and nothing happens unitl you add water. The more water there is (with the proper amount of soap, or course) the more dirt it can quickly remove and keep suspended from re-depositing. Why do you need to use SO much water when washingdishes Because I enjoy my dishes being cleaned very well and put away almost within the hour ;) Does it really make any sense using a cup of water in the dishwasher and throwing it around a bunch of dirty dishes for 45 minutes to an hour? I prefer to use ample amounts of water and have it changed out often....just like my KDS-19 does. And what are you flushing down the toilet that 1.6 gallons won't handle? Are you one of those that uses a 1/2 a roll of toilet paper each time you use the toilet? LOL! I don't use much TP, but I do have a high fiber diet ;) My main issue with them is that 1.6's plug up quickly with mineral deposits due to our hard water. I get about 4-5 years before they're plugged up to the point that they refuse to flush without wanting to overflow. Funny, but the original 5 GPF American Standard toilet from 1970 hasn't had that issue yet :) It replaced a 1.6 toilet upstairs and the pink '54 took the place of the '70 downstairs. Also, when the 1.6's are working correctly, I still have to hold the handle down, every time, before clean water emerges from the bowl. Not so with the guzzlers. Just flush and walk away. Instant clean water. Here's a quote from a person in the water/wastewater field speaking about 1.6 GPF toilets: The problem is they use so little water that the solids don't flow in the pipes properly. Water is the carrier for human waste but there's grease and other materials that go in there that stick to the inner walls of the pipe. This creates a need to flush sewers more often which uses a lot of water. On a private residence, they tend to plug up septic fields. I guess you can say that I feel like I'm doing my part in keeping sewer lines from the street and beyond just a little bit cleaner ;) But I can't lie. It's very comforting to know I can pull this off, if needed. |
Post# 486253 , Reply# 29   1/4/2011 at 00:44 (4,722 days old) by mark_wpduet (Lexington KY)   |   | |
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Is that a joke on that "normal cycle" picture? That literally looked like 2 cups of water....I realize it would add somewhat more if there were actually clothes in there, but still.. If it's not all I can say is WOW! My Duet from 2004 uses a little more water on the normal cycle than the picture I saw for the Bulky cycle of your machine.....I would be using the Bulky cycle on everything if that were the case based on those pics.
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Post# 486302 , Reply# 32   1/4/2011 at 11:21 (4,722 days old) by mark_wpduet (Lexington KY)   |   | |
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Hi
Did you see the post of the guy who bought the New Frigidaire FL washer that is very water efficient and he wanted to see of he could get the dirties "rare" load that you speak of clean? It got them cleaner than his water hogging TL. My issue has never been with low water washing because I think items can be washed in low water/concentrated detergent......My main issue has always been the rinsing. |
Post# 486360 , Reply# 36   1/4/2011 at 16:08 (4,722 days old) by DADoES ![]() |
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Post# 486384 , Reply# 41   1/4/2011 at 17:34 (4,722 days old) by DADoES ![]() |
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![]() Why would three successive loads need to be done on the one evening? Adapt and adjust. I don't do all my laundry in one day. I wait until I have a full load of a particular kind, or don't have enough of those items to last but 1 or 2 days longer. Each type of load accumulates at a different rate and is done accordingly whenever the need arises .... towels/whites, jeans, casuals, bedding, etc. |
Post# 486409 , Reply# 42   1/4/2011 at 18:55 (4,721 days old) by ronhic (Canberra, Australia)   |   | |
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Post# 486485 , Reply# 44   1/5/2011 at 07:14 (4,721 days old) by dj-gabriele ()   |   | |
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I LOVE YOU! |
Post# 486496 , Reply# 45   1/5/2011 at 08:34 (4,721 days old) by pierreandreply4 (St-Bruno de montarville (province of quebec) canada)   |   | |
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yesterday i went to my local shoping center and as i left i look in the appliance department and i saw the new maytag maxima washer dryer set my dream set fro my next washer dryer set as my mother and me plan to stack them but i do all the wash load around the house just the washer cost 1800.00$ canadian dolar thats high robery for a washer that after 10 years of use needs to be replace as for the dryer and as for the dryer it cost $1,200.00
can if i round the amount ![]() |
Post# 486574 , Reply# 47   1/5/2011 at 16:47 (4,721 days old) by ronhic (Canberra, Australia)   |   | |
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What on earth for?
Surely the delivery fee isn't higher than a 'traditional' machine? Just level it off, screw on the hoses, connect the drain and plug it in.... I will just clarify something though. You comment that 'Maybe in Europe, Oz etc folks have more clothes; or smaller washers too' I have no idea what people have in their wardrobes, but I will say that there seems to be a great deal of confusion between 'size' and 'capacity'. The American way of measuring in cu ft is not comparable to the rest of the worlds use of pounds/kilograms unless you look at the chart you provided in a previous forum. I've pulled it from the original document, but have not formatted, so sorry about the difficulty people may have reading it.... Basically, a 4.0cu ft machine should be tested with a load of about 7.5kg (16.5lb)and a 2.3cu ft machine, with 4kg (9lb)....but here's something interesting... I've just read the owners manual for the following machines: Whirlpool 2.3 cu. ft. I.E.C. Compact Front-Load Washing Machine (WFC7500V) Whirlpool 4.0 cu. ft. WFW9050XW ..and let's take towels as the capacity measurement.... The 'normal' load for both machines according to the handbooks are: 2.3 cu. ft. - 8 bath towels, 8 hand towels and 10 wash cloths (page 17) 4.0 cu. ft. - 8 bath towels, 8 hand towels, 10 wash cloths AND one bath mat...(page 15) Sorry, are you recommending (Whirlpool and undoubtedly other manufacturers) that a machine with a stated capacity over 70% larger can only wash an extra bathmat? Now, the smaller one is European designed....and has similar cycles (adapted for the US) to the larger, US built machine. It is currently on offer through SEARS for $599.... All the above information proves to me is that Americans are being 'sold a fib'...these large capacity machines are actually not that big when it comes to what you can actually get clean in them. Their large size exacerbates the high G-forces when spinning potentially causes premature wear and they don't appear to do anything better than a smaller machine. In fact, they can't handle a small load nearly as well as the smaller machine will and they certainly don't have the capacity that their size would indicate... Additionally, 3beltwesty, the smaller machine has a 30min quick cycle, the 'normal' cycles are faster than the larger machine AND you can get away with washing smaller loads in a smaller drum without the balance issues you have experienced yet still wash 95% of the capacity of the larger machine should you require it.... Bigger is not always better.... 3.3.2Determine the test load as shown in the following table: Container volume Test load cu. ft.ˇÝ< literˇÝ< lb kg 0-0.80 0-22.7 3.00 1.36 0.80-0.90 22.7-25.5 3.50 1.59 0.90-1.00 25.5-28.3 3.90 1.77 1.00-1.10 28.3-31.1 4.30 1.95 1.10-1.20 31.1-34.0 4.70 2.13 1.20-1.30 34.0-36.8 5.10 2.31 1.30-1.40 36.8-39.6 5.50 2.49 1.40-1.50 39.6-42.5 5.90 2.68 1.50-1.60 42.5-45.3 6.40 2.90 1.60-1.70 45.3-48.1 6.80 3.08 1.70-1.80 48.1-51.0 7.20 3.27 1.80-1.90 51.0-53.8 7.60 3.45 1.90-2.00 53.8-56.6 8.00 3.63 2.00-2.10 56.6-59.5 8.40 3.81 2.10-2.20 59.5-62.3 8.80 3.99 2.20-2.30 62.3-65.1 9.20 4.17 2.30-2.40 65.1-68.0 9.60 4.35 2.40-2.50 68.0-70.8 10.00 4.54 2.50-2.60 70.8-73.6 10.50 4.76 2.60-2.70 73.6-76.5 10.90 4.94 2.70-2.80 76.5-79.3 11.30 5.13 2.80-2.90 79.3-82.1 11.70 5.31 2.90-3.00 82.1-85.0 12.10 5.49 3.00-3.10 85.0-87.8 12.50 5.67 3.10-3.20 87.8-90.6 12.90 5.85 3.20-3.30 90.6-93.4 13.30 6.03 3.30-3.40 93.4-96.3 13.70 6.21 3.40-3.50 96.3-99.1 14.10 6.40 3.50-3.60 99.1-101.9 14.60 6.62 3.60-3.70 101.9-104.8 15.00 6.80 3.70-3.80 104.8-107.6 15.40 6.99 Notes: (1) All test load weights are bone dry weights. CLICK HERE TO GO TO ronhic's LINK |
Post# 486577 , Reply# 48   1/5/2011 at 16:48 (4,721 days old) by ronhic (Canberra, Australia)   |   | |
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Post# 486583 , Reply# 50   1/5/2011 at 17:42 (4,721 days old) by ronhic (Canberra, Australia)   |   | |
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Whirlpolf....
If you had bothered to read the rest of the sentence: 'when washing, you can just spot the back of the drum when the machine pauses to change direction over the top of the wet washing....' NOTE: the washing is WET.... By 'just spot', that means via the top of the door when it pauses - not through the middle of it...as you know, washing compacts when wet...a full drum of towels (and by that I mean FULL, by your definition) in my Zanussi made Westinghouse. When the machine pauses to reverse, I can JUST see the drum at the back if I look through the top of the door...and that was 8 bath towels and 2 heavy bath mats, not a 'half load' as you imply... |
Post# 486595 , Reply# 54   1/5/2011 at 18:14 (4,721 days old) by ronhic (Canberra, Australia)   |   | |
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...remain valid though.
- The usable capacity difference between Whirlpools 4.0 and 2.3 cu. ft. washers is negligible according to their user manuals - the 24", 2.3 cu. ft. Whirlpool appears to suit your needs better because it will wash smaller loads without issue compared to larger machines (balancing) - and it appears your retailers may sell cheap, but delivery is abominable.... On another note, I can get any machine from any retailer in this city delivered for $40 or less regardless of if the machine is on sale or not or if its the day after a public holiday...and that price more often than not applies for Saturday too. From some on-line retailers I can pay as little as $13 for a washer to be delivered from interstate.... Now, whilst we may be the capital city, our population is only 300,000 AND we are a minimum 225 miles from the next major city - Sydney.... There are times, when I really do feel for North Americans....inexpensive appliances on one hand (YAY) and gouged for delivery on the other (Boo) |
Post# 486598 , Reply# 56   1/5/2011 at 18:33 (4,721 days old) by ronhic (Canberra, Australia)   |   | |
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Post# 486831 , Reply# 61   1/6/2011 at 18:51 (4,719 days old) by ronhic (Canberra, Australia)   |   | |
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Post# 487073 , Reply# 62   1/7/2011 at 16:35 (4,719 days old) by StrongEnough78 (California)   |   | |
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They already tried that in the early to mid 80's and yeah, need I say more. You had Cadillac's weighing in at 4,200 pounds with a dinky, underpowered V-8 under the hood putting out an unbelieveable 120 horsepower. I think the 0-60 times were somewhere in the 20 second range. So since people would full throttle the thing just to get it moving, they would end up using large amounts of gas anyway. And the compact cars were just as slow, yeah you'd get on the highway and go forever on a gallon of gas, but you also prayed and begged that you could get the hell out of the way of a large semi rapidly approaching. The early 90's had great cars. Full size with V-8 power that was more than adequate that got over 25 MPG on the highway and at least 17 in town. Now when I see advertisements for a highpower V-6 engine that gets 25 MPG on the highway, and they make it seem like the best thing ever, I can't help but to laugh. I sit and think, "Just a few years ago they were advertising V-8 powered cars with those same numbers" Oh well, it makes no sense to me either. I don't forsee anymore gutless cars in the future, but waterless washers.....blah. I mean seriously, Earth is 75% water, if I remember correctly. I highly doubt we're going to totally run out anytime soon. Yeah most of it is salt water in the oceans, but I say, if they can make a pill to make your "manhood" erect, liquid filled pillows to enlarge breasts, and cellular telephones that can access anything from the internet, to the gas level in your car, then they can make a way to make ocean water usable. And that would be after our fresh water reserves are totally drained, and honestly, I don't forsee that happening either. This is getting pretty bad when we're pretty much getting told what kind of appliances we HAVE to use. I don't prefer front loading washers, especially after the reviews and posts I've seen about them, or washers that have a hot water setting, but will only allow a preset tempurature, with NO spray rinse between the wash and rinse! I know a few still do that but most don't seem to now.
And gasoline, I don't see any reason why it should be at the prices it is now, and why the hell we have to buy oil elsewhere when there is obscene amounts of it here we could be using. This place has gone to hell in a handbasket. |
Post# 1153740 , Reply# 67   7/9/2022 at 00:52 (518 days old) by GELaundry4ever ![]() |
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I know this thread is old, but nothing has changed. It's only getting worse. |
Post# 1153746 , Reply# 68   7/9/2022 at 05:14 (518 days old) by qsd-dan (West)   |   | |
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Post# 1153770 , Reply# 69   7/9/2022 at 10:42 (518 days old) by Maytag85 (Sean A806)   |   | |
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Crazy as this sounds but since all appliances have electronic controls that can fail or be dubious, I am beginning to wonder if companies are VERY slowly beginning to merge together (not that they are but in a way they might as well) and purposely stagnate innovation etc and that’s VERY Monopolistic.
Same thing is going on with cars since they all have the same features, options, and last but not least is the same body style and yes there are a few distinct differences but usually all have the same generic shape as well. The automakers might as well be “merging” together, stagnating innovation and styling, and simply DO NOT give people ANY sort of choice what they want anymore and again that’s what Monopolies do. |
Post# 1153777 , Reply# 70   7/9/2022 at 11:25 (518 days old) by Pierreandreply4 (St-Bruno de montarville (province of quebec) canada)   |   | |
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this is my opinion this is my curent daily driver purchuse last yearbut if after 5 10 years it broke if i can convince my mom would go for something more vintine like this inglis set if still possible to find in use store markets in mint good condition ir a good direct drive like inglis royal100 that has a warm rinse and second rinse option last pic is a refrence
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Post# 1153936 , Reply# 71   7/10/2022 at 18:29 (517 days old) by GELaundry4ever ![]() |
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You may be right about this. I wish they could've innovated on the features we've grown to love, like direct drive, filter-flo, etc. |