Thread Number: 32242
Crazy Neptune TL
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Post# 486271   1/4/2011 at 06:22 (4,715 days old) by DADoES (TX,†U.S. of A.)        

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Allrightythen.† Here's a video of the goofy thing refusing to spin.† I'm hoping someone can tell me what's wrong.† The machine is useless until this problem is fixed.

Notice how the clutch works.† When the motor runs one direction, the basket brakes and the lifters (correct technical term for the tumble discs) rotate instead.† Being as the load is pulled up the side of the basket, spin would be seriously off balance ... so when the motor reverses for spin, the lifters rotate a little in reverse to center the load.† The clutch can fail such that the lifters keep turning continuously during spin, which obviously will cause chronic/continual off-balance.† The clutch on this machine did fail in exactly that way when it was 6 months old, and was replaced under warranty.† The machine wasn't used after that repair until a few months ago.† The replacement clutch is working properly, but it refuses to spin, apparently for sensing the load as being off balance when IT IS NOT.

Not shown in the video is the tub displacement sensor at the left front, attached to the tub and to the edge of the cabinet.† It looks like a support strut or shock, but is not.† It has ball joints at both ends and moves freely with the tub to sense oscillations for OOB conditions.† The original sensor passes all diagnostic tests, but I replaced it anyway, and that did not solve the problem.

Be advised the video is 37 mins long in real time and isn't very good quality.† It begins during the 1st rinse, before which the 1st spin had already failed in the same way that you will see the 2nd spin fail (after the 1st rinse).† Full cycle sequence is wash, spin w/spray, tumble rinse, spin w/spray, final tumble rinse, final spin (also with a spray at the start).



target="_blank">Neptune TL Spin Fail


Post# 486272 , Reply# 1   1/4/2011 at 06:37 (4,715 days old) by mrb627 (Buford, GA)        
Empty Trial

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Will the machine balance and spin without clothes in it?

​Malcolm


Post# 486274 , Reply# 2   1/4/2011 at 06:56 (4,715 days old) by mrb627 (Buford, GA)        
Basket Pitch

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The tub does seem to pitch back and forth during pre-balance spinning.† I wonder if you helped to stabilize the tub during this period, would the machine advance and spin?†

​I know the GE Harmony machine that I had would repeat the last rinse not so much as a rinsing but using it as a medium to redistribute the load so it can spin.
​​
​Malcolm


Post# 486276 , Reply# 3   1/4/2011 at 07:02 (4,715 days old) by mrb627 (Buford, GA)        
Spray Rinse

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Spray Rinse Ending Early.

​Could this be because there is still water left in the tub and spinning the water trips the water level switch?

​Perhaps there is a pump restriction...

​Malcolm


Post# 486327 , Reply# 4   1/4/2011 at 13:15 (4,715 days old) by DADoES (TX,†U.S. of A.)        

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Malcolm,

It typically will redistribute several times even on an empty spin-only, although in some cases it will go ahead and spin. The final spin is limited to 500 RPM if the tub strikes the cabinet at any time during balance attempts. In the past when it was working, it would go on to high-speed spin with some degree of tub oscillation, enough to cause some noise & vibration. Many of the aborted spin attempts are balanced very well enough that it should not be failing.

Assisting to hold the tub steady does NOT help.

It's normal for spin to begin with water in the tub. It seems to function as a sort of "balance ballast." Notice there are two water levels. Wash & the 1st rinse (and the interim Extra Rinse if selected) are at the lower level. The final rinse (and all fills on Bulky) are at the higher level, up to the bearing caps on the lifters. As shown in the video, spin after the 1st rinse (at the lower water level) begins immediately without draining first, then the pump turns on if it's balanced enough. On the final rinse at the higher level, it neutral drains down to the lower water level, then spin begins to test balance, then the pump turns on for remainder of the drain. In normal conditions spin accelerates to a slightly higher RPM after the water has drained at which point the spray rinse triggers for maybe a bit less than 15 seconds. You can see it begin to ramp-up on the initial drains after both rinses, when the spin balance then fails.

The reason I keep lowering the top during fills & spray rinses is so the detergent dispenser in the lid can drain. Fill is through the lid, the water valve assembly shoots a stream into the rear edge of the lid through the detergent dispenser, with additional valves to divert part of the flow through channels to flush the bleach & softener dispensers. The lid (which locks) CANNOT be left open during fills or spray rinses, water will spray everywhere.


Post# 486335 , Reply# 5   1/4/2011 at 13:55 (4,715 days old) by mrb627 (Buford, GA)        
Hmmm...

mrb627's profile picture
Well, having not tinkered with one of these machines in person, it is difficult for me to visualize what can be suspect.† Are there damper pads of any kind built into the suspension system that may be dry or worn?

​I found this webpage blurb that might be helpful.

Malcolm​


Post# 486337 , Reply# 6   1/4/2011 at 14:00 (4,715 days old) by mrb627 (Buford, GA)        
Another Message

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I just did a repair on my FAV6800AAW by lubricating the needle bearings in the clutch pulley hub, the tub displacement sensor checked OK per the service manual check. I was getting dc/uc errors, washer was purchased in 7/05. I have basic mechanical skills and used a socket wrench to remove clutch pulley hub, just follow the service manual removal steps to remove clutch pulley hub. Pull the plastic cover off the clutch pulley hub and inspect the spring, clean/lube needle bearings and the clutch hub coupler that drives spinner shaft. I used WD40 I may need to re-lube down the road with a good light grease. It took a few tries for me to get the clutch pulley hub to stay on after re-install and power up, getting the clutch pulley seated properly is the trick. I did not remove the washer tub for this fix, I believe I saw a posting where someone did. I just leaned the washer back to get a better reach angle, it is a tight work area. I did not want to junk 3.5 yr old $1k machine with out trying a fix. If you want to work on this model get the service manual, I found it online and I believe you can order it in PDF format from Maytag. Good luck!

I just went thru my 10th load of a mix of light, medium heavy loads and all work fine no unbalance errors (DC/UC). Doesnít fix the tangle problem :) Prior to this fix I could only run the washer with no clothes in it to complete a cycle with no dc/uc error codes


Post# 486342 , Reply# 7   1/4/2011 at 14:21 (4,715 days old) by DADoES (TX,†U.S. of A.)        

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Thanks for the suggestions. I've seen those message board posts, and others. Per the serial # my machine's build date is December 2005. The original clutch broke and was replaced on 11/6/2008, under warranty. Several weeks ago I removed the new clutch, disassembled, cleaned, and relubed it, the spring is not broken. I have a service manual for the machine and a couple service bulletins. The original displacement sensor passes the described tests, but I replaced it anyway on 12/29/2010. No change in the (mis)behavior.

I'd replace the clutch again, but I don't see/find anything wrong with it. Far as I'm aware, the balance problem the clutch causes is when the lifters continue to tumble during spin, drawing the load up the side of the basket and causing an OOB condition. By observation, that's not the problem. There are numerous times when spin is balanced very well, and still it stops and redistributes. That would point to the displacement sensor as the fault ... but I've tried two sensors that both pass diagnostics.

Maybe its brains (controller board) are scrambled? LOL.


Post# 486377 , Reply# 8   1/4/2011 at 17:26 (4,715 days old) by mrb627 (Buford, GA)        
Test Mode

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You may have mentioned this already, but will the machine spin in test mode?† Is there a test mode that will step through each phase of functionality?

​It certainly is a tough nut to crack...

​Malcolm


Post# 486569 , Reply# 9   1/5/2011 at 15:55 (4,714 days old) by washoholic (San Antonio, TX)        

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Hi Glenn,

There are faint triangle shaped arrows on each of the white plastic tumble disks (One on each lifter). It seems like each one is supposed to point up when the lifters rotate a little in reverse to center the load for spin (Itís been a while since I had a Neptune TL). Are yours pointing up when it goes into spin (Itís hard to tell such detail in a video)? Perhaps they need to be taken off and put back on in a certain alignment. Good Luck!

~Jeff


Post# 486609 , Reply# 10   1/5/2011 at 19:41 (4,713 days old) by redcarpetdrew (Fairfield, CA)        

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The arrows in the disks are for aligning the disks when re-installing them. If I remember right, the TL also senses motor torque as part of it's system. Also, raising and lowering the main top while it's spinning can trigger a OOB reset condition. Yes, it can be THAT touchy... I think there is a 'trembler' of sorts on the main board similar in theory to the one on the MAH3,4,55,65,75 control boards.

RCD


Post# 486859 , Reply# 11   1/6/2011 at 22:08 (4,712 days old) by DADoES (TX,†U.S. of A.)        

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RCD, thanks for the info!† There's no mention of a vibration sensor on the board in the service documentation, but that's what's happening.† It also clarifies how tub-cabinet impacts are detected.† Previously I'd been tricking the lid switch to observe (had to keep it closed during fill periods, of course).† Upon putting the machine back into occasional use several months ago, I removed the screws as a workaround so I could raise the top with the lid closed and not interfere with the water flow.† I didn't make the connection with that and the spin problem.† I ran a couple loads today, kept the top down, and it didn't have any trouble.† Both were small/light loads so there wasn't much oscillation involved ... the 'fix' will be confirmed at next opportunity to run a heavier/larger load of towels or jeans, but I don't imagine there'll be further trouble.

Sheesh ... Maytag and their strict enforcement of the "forbidden cycle," LOL.


Post# 486864 , Reply# 12   1/6/2011 at 22:26 (4,712 days old) by cfz2882 (Belle Fourche,SD)        

LOL...i'll keep that in mind in case i get a neptune T/L..
i wonder if a spare lid from a junk machine could be modified
into a window lid-possibly with some lights to illuminate
the action...


Post# 488247 , Reply# 13   1/11/2011 at 16:29 (4,708 days old) by roto204 (Tucson, AZ)        
Window lid

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Maybe, but you'd have to be kind of clever. There's a triple set of solenoids positioned behind the lid (literally, in the back crevice), and the way the dispensers work--bleach aimed left, fabric softener aimed right, and detergent aimed right up the middle--is that a solenoid fires one of the three directions, and water shoots in a stream into a series of tubes molded into the plastic of the lid. The tubes carry the water to pocketed areas riddled with holes, through which the water falls and ends up landing in the dispensers. With the exception of the detergent dispenser, which showers down onto the clothes as the machine gently rotates the load underneath, the FS and bleach dispensers are plain siphon dispensers (and as such, retain some water afterward--but that's for another discussion :-) ).

(This triple-array arrangement is also why you have to keep the lid closed during fill/dispensing if you rig your machine to run with the lid open, unless you enjoy having a water gun pointed right at your crotch.)

If you could find a way to preserve your detergent dispenser and run tubing directly enough to prevent water from backwashing toward the solenoids that are just spraying into the wide open, you might pull it off, but I think you'd end up with a mighty small window.

Oh, and be sure to leave your lid open--I'll be sanding and epoxy-coating ours because the previous owners didn't, and that lovely channeling system keeps water sandwiched right up against the metal lid. That, and let's not even talk about the mold and crud I had to scrub out because they were religious lid-closers. Ecch.


Post# 488313 , Reply# 14   1/11/2011 at 20:08 (4,707 days old) by redcarpetdrew (Fairfield, CA)        
Touchy lid/top...

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Yeah, it's fun with that. I've never actually LOCATED the trembler on the board but I know it's there. It's the only explanation. If you remove the two front spring clips that hold the top down, and if you lift/lower the top SLOWLY Aaannnddd IF you don't jar or vibrate the top when lowering it back onto the cabinet (but fast enough to avoid said water leakage and wet crotch when the valves open...), SOMETIMES you can do so without triggering an OOB reset... If you can do all the above with regular success, then you might have a future career as a jewel thief or the like... LOL!

RCD


Post# 488387 , Reply# 15   1/12/2011 at 07:48 (4,707 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md)        
MATTAG NEPTUNE TL WASHER

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I have had the more basic 6800 hooked up in my home shop for years and as Andy suggested I just removed the front cabinet clips so I can easily lift the top and check on its operation. So far doing so has caused no problems, it can be a frustrating machine to watch however as it does seem to often start spinning well nicely balanced only to stop and rearrange the load and end out of balance. It is not a good machine for me to watch, I got rid of my WP Duet for the same reason after only a couple months and have had no interest in having another one. But I am going to keep the MT Neptune TL as I think it is a very interesting machine, I mostly wash loads of shop rags in it and they always come out OK. I would not want one as my only washer but I do have one of the touch screen models with the water heater that I plan to install in my new home laundry room next to a new MT gas drying center.

Post# 488669 , Reply# 16   1/13/2011 at 11:52 (4,706 days old) by mickeyd (Hamburg NY)        
Drew to the rescue

mickeyd's profile picture
So you can actually witness the forbidden cycle as long as you don't mind a soaking? Would love to see it, a definite item on the bucket list.

Any washer lover is bug-eyed reading this. What an unusual machine. Before the Dorothy Street Washer Repository became a crushing site in 2007, I saw quite a few of these abandoned but very minty looking machines. I couldn't imagine why they had been discarded so young. Wish I had grabbed one. What a joy stick, this.

Glenn, the video is so generous. Eager to watch it in toto tonight. Thanks.


Post# 488692 , Reply# 17   1/13/2011 at 13:49 (4,706 days old) by DADoES (TX,†U.S. of A.)        

dadoes's profile picture

MickeyD, the cycle can be observed by tricking the lid switch but it's an @ss-pain ... which is why I'd been doing the workaround of raising the entire top.† The lid locks via latch levers at the left & right front corners that fit into notches on edge of the lid.† The left-side mechanism involves a magnet in the lid that triggers a sensor so the machine "knows" the lid is closed.† The right-side latch lever must be held in a certain position, not protruding out too far, so the machine "knows" the lid is closed & properly latched.† The latch is spring-loaded and the proper position is a bit past the balance point of the spring, but too far out and the machine shuts off into pause mode.† Interestingly, the position of the left-side latch lever is of no consequence, just the magnet trigger is required there.

The lid can be raised maybe a max of 2" during fill, just enough to peep inside and see the dispenser showering water down ... any higher and the dispenser ports in the rear edge are too far misaligned with the input jets and water starts leaking around the top.

After the initial fill is satisfied, it's not unusual that the machine may fill again (rarely twice) to top-off what the clothes absorb after tumbling begins ... so be prepared to close the lid quickly.

Raising/lowering the entire top during spin balancing is what triggers the OOB reset ... opening just the lid does not cause that problem.† The lid does have to be closed during the spray rinses near the beginning of each spin and I got showered a few times at first until I caught on to exactly when the sprays occur.


Post# 488725 , Reply# 18   1/13/2011 at 16:05 (4,706 days old) by mickeyd (Hamburg NY)        
Now that's a shower I can't wait to experience

mickeyd's profile picture
For collectors of the future, this cantankerous, pretty gal will be a must have.

Fascinated by the almost perfect imitation of a front loader in the way the load moves.

Many thanks, Glenn, and tonight a 40 minute washer movie extravaganza.



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