Thread Number: 32389
Presenting the In-Sink-Erator Classic Supreme Dishwasher |
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Post# 488566   1/12/2011 at 21:02 (4,851 days old) by rp2813 (Sannazay)   |   | |
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Post# 488567 , Reply# 1   1/12/2011 at 21:04 (4,851 days old) by rp2813 (Sannazay)   |   | |
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Post# 488570 , Reply# 2   1/12/2011 at 21:05 (4,851 days old) by rp2813 (Sannazay)   |   | |
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Post# 488571 , Reply# 3   1/12/2011 at 21:13 (4,851 days old) by rp2813 (Sannazay)   |   | |
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Post# 488572 , Reply# 4   1/12/2011 at 21:26 (4,851 days old) by wigwag (San Diego)   |   | |
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The panels came out great congrads! Your machine has the same buttons as mine except the energy saver wash on mine is marked sani-rinse which probably doesn't do any energy saving at all =) Nice work! |
Post# 488585 , Reply# 7   1/12/2011 at 22:34 (4,851 days old) by appnut (TX)   |   | |
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Post# 488589 , Reply# 8   1/12/2011 at 22:47 (4,851 days old) by gansky1 (Omaha, The Home of the TV Dinner!)   |   | |
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Post# 488611 , Reply# 9   1/13/2011 at 00:50 (4,851 days old) by rp2813 (Sannazay)   |   | |
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Post# 488618 , Reply# 10   1/13/2011 at 03:53 (4,851 days old) by beekeyknee (Columbia, MO)   |   | |
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Post# 488628 , Reply# 11   1/13/2011 at 07:10 (4,851 days old) by polkanut (Wausau, WI )   |   | |
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Post# 488661 , Reply# 12   1/13/2011 at 10:52 (4,851 days old) by bajaespuma (Connecticut)   |   | |
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Post# 488674 , Reply# 13   1/13/2011 at 12:42 (4,851 days old) by rp2813 (Sannazay)   |   | |
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Tim, I'm hoping this machine doesn't go anywhere for a very long time. I'm happy with it and like the styling.
I think the only machine I'd be tempted to replace it with would be a 22 series Superba Monterey, if they even made such a thing. I don't like the look of the control panels on the 22's that much, so this ISE is really a great solution. I just ran a "Normal" wash last night. Now that the machine is empty, I'll get some interior shots to post here. Also, I noticed what sounded like two purges. One after the first wash and drain, and then another after the main wash and drain. Does that sound right? IIRC, my KDI-21 only did one purge after the main wash. |
Post# 488697 , Reply# 14   1/13/2011 at 13:50 (4,850 days old) by toploader55 (Massachusetts Sand Bar, Cape Cod)   |   | |
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Post# 488701 , Reply# 15   1/13/2011 at 14:05 (4,850 days old) by rp2813 (Sannazay)   |   | |
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Post# 488702 , Reply# 16   1/13/2011 at 14:07 (4,850 days old) by rp2813 (Sannazay)   |   | |
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Post# 488703 , Reply# 17   1/13/2011 at 14:09 (4,850 days old) by rp2813 (Sannazay)   |   | |
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Post# 488774 , Reply# 18   1/13/2011 at 19:36 (4,850 days old) by appnut (TX)   |   | |
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Post# 488778 , Reply# 19   1/13/2011 at 20:09 (4,850 days old) by rp2813 (Sannazay)   |   | |
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Oh yeah Bob, if I had found one of those, it would have been all over. They just don't turn up. I was looking for one before the Thermador showed up a year ago, and it wasn't until I found the Supreme on Craig's List last month that I had seen anything that even came close.
I will definitely snag a KDS22 if it looks like the one in the link you posted! |
Post# 488783 , Reply# 20   1/13/2011 at 20:41 (4,850 days old) by DADoES (TX, U.S. of A.)   |   | |
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Post# 488784 , Reply# 21   1/13/2011 at 20:50 (4,850 days old) by GadgetGary (Bristol,CT)   |   | |
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Post# 488787 , Reply# 22   1/13/2011 at 20:58 (4,850 days old) by stevet (West Melbourne, FL)   |   | |
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And bring a vehicle big enough! Ralph, I have the 22 Superba like the picture above in great shape for you or even a 21 Monterey..your choice. come and get it(them)! |
Post# 488789 , Reply# 23   1/13/2011 at 21:19 (4,850 days old) by bajaespuma (Connecticut)   |   | |
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Post# 488801 , Reply# 24   1/13/2011 at 22:05 (4,850 days old) by rp2813 (Sannazay)   |   | |
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OK, so the shape of the panel buttons didn't change until the 23 series? I thought that happened with the 22's but judging from the photo above and the owner's manual illustrations, I was mistaken.
Steve, I'd take that Superba if I lived closer. For now the Supreme is almost the same machine, is an unusual one, and I'm enjoying her. This is my first rapid advance timer, so the Supreme seems very luxurious. If a KDS22 should surface locally I probably will want to secure it, but unlike with the Thermador there won't be a big rush to replace the Supreme. |
Post# 488843 , Reply# 25   1/14/2011 at 04:49 (4,850 days old) by toploader55 (Massachusetts Sand Bar, Cape Cod)   |   | |
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Post# 488886 , Reply# 27   1/14/2011 at 10:53 (4,850 days old) by A440 ()   |   | |
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Post# 488889 , Reply# 28   1/14/2011 at 11:03 (4,850 days old) by A440 ()   |   | |
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Post# 488891 , Reply# 29   1/14/2011 at 11:13 (4,850 days old) by A440 ()   |   | |
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Interesting that a KUDI 21 and KUDS 22 that appears to be from the same time period have the smaller Hobart filter system. |
Post# 488906 , Reply# 30   1/14/2011 at 12:50 (4,850 days old) by rp2813 (Sannazay)   |   | |
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Well gee, I'm really confused now. I thought the 23 series had the white control panels with components that tend to yellow with age, and had more square shaped buttons. Maybe only the Superbas got that treatment.
Brent, your KUDP23 retains the look of the 22 series on the exterior. The only way I can tell it's later is by the Whirlpool-influenced sump area. I guess I thought that when Whirlpool implemented those changes on the 23, they changed the control panel too. My ISE has only one rinse after the main wash (the one when the detergent dispenser opens.) So far it hasn't been a problem, but I may take Steve's advice and remove the restrictor washer from the inlet valve and allow more water to enter the tub. That way it will fill more for the purge and thus provide a sort of mini-rinse before the final rinse. Eddie, thanks for the info on the lower rack. I kind of like the extra tines since they allow for larger loads where dishes are concerned, plus the racks from the KDS20 are more substantial than those that came with either of the later ISE machines. |
Post# 488911 , Reply# 31   1/14/2011 at 13:26 (4,850 days old) by yogitunes (New Jersey)   |   | |
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Post# 488992 , Reply# 32   1/14/2011 at 21:51 (4,849 days old) by GadgetGary (Bristol,CT)   |   | |
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Post# 488993 , Reply# 33   1/14/2011 at 21:52 (4,849 days old) by GadgetGary (Bristol,CT)   |   | |
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Post# 488995 , Reply# 34   1/14/2011 at 21:54 (4,849 days old) by GadgetGary (Bristol,CT)   |   | |
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Post# 489030 , Reply# 36   1/15/2011 at 04:05 (4,849 days old) by rp2813 (Sannazay)   |   | |
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I'm curious about when the "Please Wait" lights up, since there's already a light marked "Heating Water."
So what else is there to wait for with that machine besides water heating? It appears the "Cycle Complete" indicator is a more wordy version of the "Clean" light on my ISE. "Rinsed Only" be damned! Who in their right mind would want that one when Whirlpool has provided "Please Wait" as an alternative? |
Post# 489040 , Reply# 37   1/15/2011 at 05:38 (4,849 days old) by jamiel (Detroit, Michigan and Palm Springs, CA)   |   | |
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Post# 489049 , Reply# 38   1/15/2011 at 07:19 (4,849 days old) by GadgetGary (Bristol,CT)   |   | |
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From the owners manual:
The please wait light comes on while the dishwasher is draining after you have pressed the CANCEL/DRAIN button. What was the point of that??? And here is a link to the manual CLICK HERE TO GO TO GadgetGary's LINK |
Post# 489057 , Reply# 39   1/15/2011 at 09:03 (4,849 days old) by stevet (West Melbourne, FL)   |   | |
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Brent, the Quick Glass option is missing from your machine because it is a KDS21 not a 22. The 22 had the extra cycle added and also has 8 buttons, not seven. Mechanically, they are identical machines just cycle differences |
Post# 489060 , Reply# 42   1/15/2011 at 09:09 (4,849 days old) by A440 ()   |   | |
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My eyes are failing me. I guess it being a 21 is also the reason for the smaller Hobart Style Filter system / pump. |
Post# 489061 , Reply# 43   1/15/2011 at 09:11 (4,849 days old) by A440 ()   |   | |
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Did you post at one time how to take the flow restriction part out? I remember someone posting pictures but could not remember if it was you. Brent |
Post# 489084 , Reply# 45   1/15/2011 at 11:00 (4,849 days old) by peteski50 (New York)   |   | |
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Post# 489094 , Reply# 46   1/15/2011 at 12:20 (4,849 days old) by appnut (TX)   |   | |
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Peter, that sequence was unique only to Superba type models--the pause, heat, then circulate. And this puase was a thermostatically controlled pause. I believe the 20 or 21 series lower models also paused for water heating, but it wasn't thermostatically held. All the other models in the KA from the WP prdouced 21-23 series line just heated the water while water was being circulated. I only remember Superba model advertising mentioning something about assured temp water heating. And as far as I was concerned, anything but a Superba was a comedown and compromise in KA line. That pause/heat sequence was many of the reassons why I WOULDN'T have a KitchenAid dishwasher, especially when I bought my GE GSD1200 in 1987. I knew that's why GE did such a superior job cleaning because it kept circulating those powerful jets of water. I think they would have been able to handle far heavier soil if they'd continued circulating wter while pausing to heat. Tomturbomatic has made similar comments about water cirulation and heating. Andrew in Orlando had similar comments about his KDS21 (I think that model series), plus the main wash phase wasn't as long as on the 22 he thought. And John lefever (combo52) also states the same as to why a WP PowerClean will clean far better than a KA. If you still have something with dirt on it in one of those after useing the PowerScrub cycle (thermostatic heat hold for Prewash (which could last for 30 to 45 minutes) plus the main wash heat and final rinse, then you needed it to be atomically blasted off the surface of what was dirty. It was a similar reasson why I didn't chose a Maytag reverserack in 1987, because their Sani-Scrub option merely turned on the heater throughout the circulation periods, but never a thermostatically held point in the cycle. And their TOL machine only paused for the heat for the SaniRinse--final rinse. A perfect KA would have been something like an 18 series with thermostatically held heat pauses while circulating during the main wash and final rinse. On the Superba Soak'n'Scrub cycles, the heater continued to heat the waterr during the "soak" periods, which improved results over the Imperiod model, which didn't continue to heat the water why paused (Gansky told me that). I also felt it was kinda stupid to have those pause periods during the S'n'S cycle--heavy soil expected should have always had water circulating.
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Post# 489162 , Reply# 47   1/15/2011 at 19:32 (4,848 days old) by rp2813 (Sannazay)   |   | |
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Post# 489183 , Reply# 48   1/15/2011 at 20:24 (4,848 days old) by toploader55 (Massachusetts Sand Bar, Cape Cod)   |   | |
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To me it makes sense.
You pump the water and mix the detergent. Then you let the detergent work. Then the heating starts which to me makes a very humid condition that rehydrates the detergent. Then Wash for a few minutes and then re-heat. I think that letting the detergent residue "set" upon the contents, really makes sense. Set and Soak. Then 3 Prewashes, Main Wash, 3 Rinses, I have never been disappointed in any KDS 18,19, or 20 Cycle. Just my expierience |
Post# 489194 , Reply# 49   1/15/2011 at 20:44 (4,848 days old) by rp2813 (Sannazay)   |   | |
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Post# 489315 , Reply# 50   1/16/2011 at 11:12 (4,848 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md)   |   | |
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I see little good in so called soak cycles on dishwashers, even when soak dishes in the sink they are immersed in water. It does little good to let dishes sit in a damp condition with a thin film of detergent and water on them. In order to keep desolving the food soil the dried food spots need constant replenishment from the water and detergent. If you are trying to clean really dirty dishes it works much better to circulating, filtering and heating the water I have the side by side proof i my kitchen with the 1987 WP PC DW and the KDSS-20 to say nothing of the messy filter in the KA. Some times on the KA when a wash the blender container and a half dozen or more glasses after I have made Fruit smoothies the wash filter will clog almost instantly and if I don't catch it and stop and clean it I will have to wash the whole load over after cleaning the filter.
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Post# 489468 , Reply# 51   1/17/2011 at 00:31 (4,847 days old) by rp2813 (Sannazay)   |   | |
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I remained within earshot of the Supreme tonight for the duration of a Normal Wash cycle. Here is the sequence of events:
Pre-Wash (or rinse if open detergent cup was not filled) Purge Rinse Main Wash Purge Rinse Dry (forced air starts up a few minutes into the Dry sequence)
I was under the impression that KA machines only did one purge after the main wash. That's how it was with my KUDI-21. Are two purges unique to ISE and/or the 22 series? I also noticed that it seemed to fill less for purge than my KUDI-21 did. I haven't tried the Pots/Pans cycle yet, but can't imagine that it would include a third purge.
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Post# 489497 , Reply# 54   1/17/2011 at 07:05 (4,847 days old) by Combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md)   |   | |
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Hi Brent I don't think I would dare to remove the filter from my KDSS-20 as I am sure at the least the top rack spray arm would quickly clog. There is not [ by design ] very much water force in the top arm and they are impossible to clean as they are very flat. Also there is no soft food disposer in the 18-20 series machines for the recirculating water the drain impeller does break up some soft food as the water leaves the machine but it is not the same as many other machines with disposers. The filter clogging is funny usually I can wash 5 or more loads without anytime more than minimal buildup on it. But some times the amount of particles in the water can quickly overwhelm it and it clogs. Ralph I agree with L P in Florida I would not remove the flow restrictor from any dishwasher, it would likely make the machine leak at times, it would double the water consumption of the machine and it would make hard water problems worse as you would have twice as much hard water for the detergent to deal with.
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Post# 489568 , Reply# 55   1/17/2011 at 12:49 (4,847 days old) by rp2813 (Sannazay)   |   | |
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Well, what I noticed about the purge on this machine is that I didn't hear anything that sounded like even a small amount of water was being sent through the wash arm(s), so I don't think the dishload is getting even lightly sprayed.
I am indeed happy with the results so for now so won't be taking any action with regard to the restrictor, but at some point it might be interesting just to see how much difference it makes. |
Post# 489656 , Reply# 56   1/17/2011 at 18:15 (4,846 days old) by appnut (TX)   |   | |
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Post# 489672 , Reply# 57   1/17/2011 at 19:10 (4,846 days old) by Combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md)   |   | |
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The purge is to clean out the sump it is not designed to spray the dishes at all. Ralph do be certain that your machine is getting enough water, I always replace the fill valve when I recondition an old DW that I intend to use. Buy the far most common problem we see with old inlet valves is that they don't allow the full water flow as they age.
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Post# 489684 , Reply# 58   1/17/2011 at 20:07 (4,846 days old) by appnut (TX)   |   | |
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I did that with my old 1987 GSD1200 PotScrubber. I had the valve replaced about 9 or 10 years into its use. I was going to have to do it again in about a year or so if I hadn't gotten the new Kenmore Elite TT because I could tell sometimes it wawsn't quite getting its full compliment of water on the fills. |
Post# 489707 , Reply# 59   1/17/2011 at 21:44 (4,846 days old) by rp2813 (Sannazay)   |   | |
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Oh yeah, I have not doubt that there could be delivery issues with the water supply. The pipes are old here, and the ones to the kitchen sink are slower by far than any others.
I can hear water being shot around during wash and rinse cycles, and on my KDI-21 I could hear it being shot out during the purge, but I still don't think it was enough to rotate the wash arms. On the Supreme I can't hear anything but a bit of a hissing sound, which is probably the water shooting out the hole in the bottom of the wash arm to clean the fine filter.
After unloading the machine this morning I noticed that the bit of moisture in a couple of the mug bottoms had a gritty residue. Nothing major, but it was there. I've heard that can be a result of a short cycle, but last night I used Normal. Perhaps I need to run Pots/Pans routinely to eliminate the grit. |
Post# 489740 , Reply# 61   1/17/2011 at 22:47 (4,846 days old) by appnut (TX)   |   | |
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Post# 489745 , Reply# 62   1/17/2011 at 23:10 (4,846 days old) by rp2813 (Sannazay)   |   | |
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Oh yeah Bob, this machine has true grit compared to the Thermador.
What's weird is that as thorough as the drying was with the Thermador, I'd always get water dripping down the inside of the glass coffee carafe from the neck after unloading it from the machine. With the ISE's use of forced air drying, I get a bit of water remaining in some of the cup bottoms, but no more drips inside the carafe.
I'll check water level after filling is through next time I run the machine.
Meanwhile, this is the second week I'm running an ad on CL for the Thermador. I've reduced the price but after three interested parties last week (none of whom panned out) I've not had any responses this week.
I'm going to twist Nate's arm to evict the Frigidaire and put the TT in its place. If I'm not successful with that, I'll drop the machine off at the Re-Store. |
Post# 491560 , Reply# 63   1/25/2011 at 23:45 (4,838 days old) by rp2813 (Sannazay)   |   | |
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I checked water levels for wash and purge per advice posted above.
For purge, the fill is so short -- I'd be surprised if it's much more than 15 seconds -- and the water level is barely 1/2" deep in the sump area. My KUDI-21 had a longer fill time for purge and I could hear water being shot out of the wash arm. I don't think the Supreme is filling with enough water to execute an effective purge and definitely not enough to send through the wash arm.
For wash/rinse the level is about 1/2" below the filter rim.
I think I need to remove the inlet's restrictor, no? |
Post# 491576 , Reply# 64   1/26/2011 at 05:28 (4,838 days old) by toploader55 (Massachusetts Sand Bar, Cape Cod)   |   | |
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I'm sure your fill solenoid has a Line Strainer. That was the only thing wrong on the Regency and the KDS 55 I got about 4 years ago was a dirty filthy line strainer in the Fill Solenoid.
The complaint on both Machines when I picked them up was "They just don't clean well anymore." You can always (which I'm sure you have) is at the start, Keep the door ajar, Overide the door safety, Latch the door, and hit a cycle button to start. Then you can visually check the flow pressure into the machine. Just my 2 cents. Eddie |
Post# 491656 , Reply# 66   1/26/2011 at 13:52 (4,837 days old) by rp2813 (Sannazay)   |   | |
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Thanks guys. I was fairly sure there would be an issue with water supply.
This machine enjoyed the sweet life of Hetch Hetchy water direct from Yosemite, probably one of the finest drinking water supplies in the nation, if not the world, before it landed in my kitchen. While sediment could be the problem, I'm thinking water pressure could be the bigger factor. I will check for sediment and if I don't find much, I will remove the restrictor while I'm at it. These old galvanized pipes will generate sediment for sure, so removing the restrictor makes a lot of sense. |
Post# 491671 , Reply# 68   1/26/2011 at 16:13 (4,837 days old) by rp2813 (Sannazay)   |   | |
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Post# 491693 , Reply# 69   1/26/2011 at 17:37 (4,837 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md)   |   | |
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Ralph try to see if you can draw two gallons of hot water from your kitchen faucet in one minute, if you can your old water pipes are not the problem. If this test fails also try this test with the faucet aerator and restrictor plate removed from your faucet. You can check the inlet valve screen if you wish but unless it is packed solid it is not the problem, usually the DW inlet screen, is one of the last things to clog in a home plumbing system. Most sediment falls to the bottom of water heaters, one possible exception is when the white plastic dip tube in the water heater fails you will see little bits of white plastic residue in the inlet screen, but buy the time this happens every strainer and shower head and the washer will have clogged as the DW doesn't use nearly as much water as these other things in most homes.
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Post# 491748 , Reply# 70   1/26/2011 at 21:33 (4,837 days old) by rp2813 (Sannazay)   |   | |
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Thanks John, I will try what you've suggested. I have a pull-out style sink faucet so will disconnect the head from it and fill the container straight from the hose. From my own casual observance over the years, I really doubt I'm going to get two gallons in one minute but the supply line to the dishwasher is a much larger diameter than the faucet hose so it may deliver more gallons per minute.
Also, the Rinse/Hold issue has changed. It appears that there's something related to whatever drives the "clean" indicator light. Tonight, since Rinse/Hold didn't seem to be an option, I selected Light wash. Nothing happened after pushing that button, except that the "clean" light lit up. I opened the door and closed it, re-selected Light and the clean light lit again, but the RAT also started to click forward. I immediately unlatched the door to stop the process (I'm still not used to having a Cancel button), latched it again, selected Rinse/Hold and it went right into operation. Weird. I may need to take the timer from the other ISE, not the control module. |
Post# 491753 , Reply# 71   1/26/2011 at 22:09 (4,837 days old) by appnut (TX)   |   | |
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Post# 491770 , Reply# 72   1/27/2011 at 01:02 (4,837 days old) by rp2813 (Sannazay)   |   | |
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Bob, yes, the machine probably went through the night before the door was opened, however . . .
The R/H button is hard to push, and it doesn't pop out completely when the door is unlatched or cancel button is depressed. I think the selector module itself needs a cleaning. There was a thread containing that procedure recently. I may change out both timer and selector module with my other ISE machine if this continues to be a problem. |
Post# 491780 , Reply# 73   1/27/2011 at 04:50 (4,837 days old) by toploader55 (Massachusetts Sand Bar, Cape Cod)   |   | |
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Post# 491801 , Reply# 74   1/27/2011 at 08:05 (4,837 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md)   |   | |
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All the buttons must pop out completely for the machine to function properly, you may need to lubricate the cycle selector switch. Also when you use the cancel setting it may take as long as two minutes after every thing has stopped before you can select another cycle, with the door closed and latched. This is why WP had the WAIT light on some rapid advance timer models, as this issue was generating expensive warranty calls from impatient customers.
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Post# 492514 , Reply# 75   1/29/2011 at 21:38 (4,834 days old) by rp2813 (Sannazay)   |   | |
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The issue is definitely related to buttons not popping out fully. I have to pull out the "cancel" button in order to have the timer re-set itself. I'll be changing out the entire control panel and timer with my spare machine that doesn't seem to have the button issues.
Today I pulled the machine to tend to the leak and remove the fill inlet restrictor.
The source of the leak was unexpected, yet easily seen with the insulation lifted. The screw holding the rear roller for the upper rack had broken off inside the plastic piece that the roller attaches to, and everything was loose. Water was escaping through the opening created by the loose screw, and running down the side. Judging from the white streaks down the side, this had been going on for a while before I got the machine. I traded out the roller assembly with one from the spare machine and the leak is fixed.
I also pulled the restrictor from the fill valve. The screen had a rusty film over it, but no big sediment particles. Now the machine fills (and sounds) as though a garden hose is aimed into it full blast. I've turned the supply valve way down so the machine just fills before wash action starts. The fill for purge is still ridiculously short, so there is no bonus rinse action during purge. I know the purge gets a partial fill, but the timer is only allowing maybe ten seconds of fill time. I know the purge fill on my KDI21 was longer than that. Perhaps switching out the timer will change things.
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Post# 492796 , Reply# 76   1/31/2011 at 10:39 (4,833 days old) by rp2813 (Sannazay)   |   | |
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I changed out the selector module with my spare machine and lubed both of them while I had them off their respective machines. Buttons are working fine now on both, but I stuck with the plan and installed the selector from the spare machine. It functions just a bit more smoothly than the one that had been on there.
Looks like the machine is now ready to provide me with high performance over the long term. Yay! |