Thread Number: 32433
Hotpoint ultima WT761 - mainbearing replacement advice, please?
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Post# 489243   1/15/2011 at 23:41 (4,710 days old) by azimuth ()        

About to attempt main bearing replacement on Hotpoint Ultima WT761(7 kilo 1600).

Any tips/advice &/or a link to (ideally free) repair/service manual would be greatly appreciated.
Manual not essential; but can sometimes be very useful.

Heard it's a bit of a pig & up to 3hours for trained Hotpoint service engineer!?!
Engineer who'll be doing it; but washers not primary area of expertise & experience (toolroom/fabricating).
Will dismantle/fix anything; but any pertinent pointers or tips from anyone who's done this job would be very welcome!

Previous advice - from elsewhere - rather suspect; on basis it started "take back off" ?? Not on that model, unless you intend to rivet it back together..!

Thanks!


Post# 489306 , Reply# 1   1/16/2011 at 10:37 (4,710 days old) by hotpoint95622 (Powys)        
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Well first question is, is this a model with a removable tub front plate or is it a sealed 50/50 split tub, if itís a 50/50 you can not replace the bearings as it is impossible to part the halves.

Photo of a WM63 with the tub front plate removed.

Also a Link to a web site that may be of use and will make clear how the front of the tub can be removed if it has one.

Lee


CLICK HERE TO GO TO hotpoint95622's LINK


Post# 489377 , Reply# 2   1/16/2011 at 18:19 (4,710 days old) by azimuth ()        

Thanks Lee!
Good link; I'd looked but not found that one.
I'll go & stick my head in it in the morning & determine its design & fate. Decided to seek info before disassembly!
Plenty familiar with cutting up bearings to remove - have one waiting to be done right now.

If it turns out to be possible, I'll post how it went if of interest to anyone.
Cheers,
Phil


Post# 489859 , Reply# 3   1/18/2011 at 13:33 (4,708 days old) by 3beltwesty ()        
Massive job; thus worth pondering the methods and labor.

With my ancient 1976 FL Westy Westinghouse washer it does not have a 50/50 tub, but a "tub front" which is removeable. To pull out the basket to replace the bearings has one removing a snap-ring on the baskets shaft at the rear of the unit, then you pull out the basket out the front. The seal and 6205 front bearing gp into the front; the rear 6205 bearing on mine comes out the rear. It is right by the snap ring.

This is a massive job.




/n










CLICK HERE TO GO TO 3beltwesty's LINK


Post# 489860 , Reply# 4   1/18/2011 at 13:35 (4,708 days old) by 3beltwesty ()        
Here it do not come out in the first bull session

The proper way is to have the washer vertical. I just do it via pushing down some; so the basket clears the washers frame

CLICK HERE TO GO TO 3beltwesty's LINK


Post# 489865 , Reply# 5   1/18/2011 at 13:57 (4,708 days old) by 3beltwesty ()        
Same brg layout in link as many old USA FL washers

Lee's nice link shows the same basic bearing config of a USA's Westinghouse FL washer from 1940's to 1990's. ie one bearing is removed from the front; other from the rear.

Since one is tapping the shaft/basket out, one has to be carefull not to make this part grow in size, since it has to pass through the old rear bearing. Thus using a nut buster, ie corroded nut remover, a soft block of wood on the shaft and not going to crazy helps.

The bearings typically fail due to leaky seal, the bearing can be corroded and a stubborn bugger to tap out. Most bearings are 52100 Steel, there are stainless bearings one can use in a rebuild too.

The reason that many repair books have the unit with shaft vertical is one might not ruins a new seal in a rebuild.

The bearing towards the front by the seal "goes" first and can be noisy for years before a total failure; ie cage failure.


Post# 489898 , Reply# 6   1/18/2011 at 17:20 (4,708 days old) by 3beltwesty ()        
2 bearings and seal

2 bearings and seal

CLICK HERE TO GO TO 3beltwesty's LINK


Post# 489900 , Reply# 7   1/18/2011 at 17:21 (4,708 days old) by hotpoint9534 (UK)        

Hi, It's the later 50/50 split tub on this one. It is more difficult to change the bearings than on the old Hotpoint design (with the motor above the tub and frontplate). Depending on the condition of the bearings you may need an entire rear tub half.

If you need help from qualified people, they are usually very helpful at www.ukwhitegoods.co.uk....

Tom.


Post# 489905 , Reply# 8   1/18/2011 at 17:33 (4,708 days old) by 3beltwesty ()        
nice kit of parts, but job still is massive

Spider shaft bearings and seal kit

CLICK HERE TO GO TO 3beltwesty's LINK


Post# 489906 , Reply# 9   1/18/2011 at 17:34 (4,708 days old) by 3beltwesty ()        

Agreed, sometimes a tub half with bearings is required

Post# 490012 , Reply# 10   1/19/2011 at 03:18 (4,707 days old) by azimuth ()        
Thanks everone..!

Hello Lee, & everyone else who's posted,

Yes, the machine is a 50/50.
Replies to specific points raised, further details, a few pics will appear later when I have a spare moment.

Phil (the engineer) was busy sharpening his temper & knuckles on something else, so I (just a female with some DIY skills) did the initial disassembly, which was fairly simple.
The WM62 infomation, while not directly relevant to this machine, was useful, thank you!

I'll be back a bit later...
Sarah



Post# 490294 , Reply# 11   1/20/2011 at 03:16 (4,706 days old) by azimuth ()        
In bits - the worst is yet to come..!

Hello everyone,

A couple of exploratory "taps" on the shaft (with the reartub supported so the basket hung freely) started it moving, so the reartub & basket should separate; but looking at the state of it, a halftub might be required. We'll see...if the sleeve is in too much of a state, replacing the bearings would just lead early failure.


@Tom; Reply #7 - Familiar with UKwhitegoods site, thanks for pointer anyway.
Advice always useful & welcome.

@3beltwesty - Thanks for all useful info & advice.
"I just do it via pushing down some" - Not a hope in this case, umless pushing with a big hammer (+ padding + drift)
"This is a massive job." - :-) :-(

In bits:


Post# 490295 , Reply# 12   1/20/2011 at 03:20 (4,706 days old) by azimuth ()        
Remains of the rear bearing -

Few balls missing & a lot of corrosion...
You can see the shaft has been sunk by about 1/4"


Post# 490297 , Reply# 13   1/20/2011 at 03:23 (4,706 days old) by azimuth ()        
Front view WT761, to compare to Lee's initial image -

Hotpont WT761 - front view of reartub & basket, removed form machine.


Post# 490372 , Reply# 14   1/20/2011 at 13:23 (4,706 days old) by hotpoint95622 (Powys)        
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Massive job, me thinks thatís a bit of an underestimate, wow.

So much for new modern design, the very old Hotpointís like my Liberator 1851/03 from 1975 are easy, just remove twelve bolts from the back plate, pull from the tub and bobs your uncle, like wise with the later 18 series from late 70ís to early 80ís then to the 95 series from early 80ís to the 90ís with plastic tubs which have the front plate, just remove twelve spring clips, more tricky but still a lot easer than your WT761.

It's all to make you buy a new machine!!

Photo of the 1851/03


Post# 490414 , Reply# 15   1/20/2011 at 16:58 (4,706 days old) by 3beltwesty ()        
hat I meant by holding the "tub down":

Here is what I meant by holding the "tub down":

With my 1976 USA Westinghouse FL the repair manuals have you having the shaft facing up. This means there is less chance to ruin the seal.

On my unit when it is horizontal and its many weights taken off; the unit "rides high" thus one cannot get the basket out unless the tub is pushed down, or the springs backed off. In this photo I just used a board to push and hold the tub down, thus I could now focus on pulling out the basket.

The basket is the white thing with its blue fin inside; the tub is the black outer shell


Post# 490419 , Reply# 16   1/20/2011 at 17:18 (4,706 days old) by 3beltwesty ()        
This design is sort of like Lees link were there is a tub fr

With my machine the white "tub front" has a giant gasket, and the red clamp holds the yellow tub front to the black tub. The yellow piece's function is to hold several of the concrete weights

Post# 490424 , Reply# 17   1/20/2011 at 17:26 (4,706 days old) by 3beltwesty ()        
Seal on mine was a bear

The hardest thing I ran into was the bearing SEAL was massive son of a gun to get squarely into it's counter bore. On mine the seal was actually a very tight press fit. Even with the bore cleaned and lubed with light grease or oil mine was a stubborn sob to mess with. I placed a threaded rod through the bearing housing and had giant washers so the seal was loaded squarely, and it would flop top one side. I actually ruined the first seal and bought another before the job was done.

Post# 490430 , Reply# 18   1/20/2011 at 17:47 (4,706 days old) by 3beltwesty ()        
check the shaft

If you reuse an old shaft on a basket or spider check it with a bearing. Any nick on the shaft can cause it to get hung and thus one is beating on the bearings to to a rebuild, not the greatest thing for a bearing

Post# 490501 , Reply# 19   1/21/2011 at 04:13 (4,705 days old) by azimuth ()        
will post further details as it progresses...

It might be a day or two before we find time to get on with it; but I'll post when we do.
My faithful old 9901 has developed a rumble recently & needs the same job doing; it's suspension/shocks need it too!
Amazing howe they've managed to get bearing life down from >25years to <25months!

I know our post-war economies were built on "disposable" goods; but it p!**es me right off; especially now we've reached the point where we know it's unsustainable; but we're still engineering "product life" into things, & doing incremental releases (so it's obsolete in 6months), and things are now designed to fail as near after warranty expires as is possible (based on average usage calculations). The "mass-production" argument is true to a point; but is often used as a cover story.
I want an ISE, when my old machine finally dies.

@3beltwesty - Interesting to see workings of your 1976 USA Westinghouse FL


Post# 490542 , Reply# 20   1/21/2011 at 10:05 (4,705 days old) by 3beltwesty ()        
stainless bearings

With the 1976 FL washer, its two 6205 bearings (25 mm bore/52mm OD /15 width ) started to get noisy about 1999 and it was not until the summer of 2005 until the front bearing completely failed. ie the cage that holds the balls broke and then basket was loose. The seal failed and the bearing rusted and pieces off of one ball came off and somehow the cage got tweaked and a couple of its spot welds broke.

The odd things is that after the front bearing got noticeably noisy, it worked for about another 6 years.

The life of these bearings in a FL washer is probably dictated by the seals life, and not just the load and revolutions. Once the seal leaks a lot the bearing steel corrodes like mad. Typical ball bearing steel is 52100. This steel has a chrome content of 12 percent, not enough to be called stainless.

The 6205 ball bearing used in westinghouse FL washers for 50 years is a very common bearing. It is used in motors, snowmobiles, etc.

With my rebuild of my 1976 washer I bought stainless steel ball bearings ; they were about 32 bucks each ( back in 2006) , versus about 5 for regular ball bearing steel. Today the prices are actually lower. An ebay vendor sells the stainless 6205 for 14 bucks with shipping. One can buy TEN 6205 regular steel 6205's for less than 20 bucks.

I think, but might be wildly wrong that your washer uses a 6207 bearing. (35 bore /72 OD /17 width ). These are about 40 bucks with shipping here in the USA on ebay. A stainless bearing has a slightly less load rating than 52100 steel, but a way higher corrosion resistance. Thus if the seal leaks, the bearing degrades slower with a SS bearing. In the UK ebay one seller "bearingoptions" has stainless 6207 bearings for 12.99 + 3.99 post in GBP.

The real question is if one uses the better bearings, will it pay off. The machine might break for another reason too.

In stainless 6205's like my old washer uses, the prices have dropped since some folks like these for snowmobiles.


CLICK HERE TO GO TO 3beltwesty's LINK


Post# 490763 , Reply# 21   1/22/2011 at 10:13 (4,704 days old) by azimuth ()        
Bearing options

Mmm,
Interesting. We'd seriously considered sourcing bearings from a local bearing supplier, rather than from an agent or washer-parts supplier, as price is usually very favorable. I need to measure them to confirm size; but internet is superb for cross referencing,& I'm sure I can find specs.
I noticed one site offering "new improved (seal)" non-manufacturer bearings at attractive price.
One of things that'll modify our decision will be state of spider...& how prices work out for kits as compared to separate purchase.
If it's so beggared it needs a halftub, then it'll probably be consigned to oblivion. ~ the cost of picking up something second-hand is broadly equivalent, & tempting to take chance. Hard call to make with newer machines - just about guaranteed to develop one problem or another before very long...& just luck as to whether you get a good 'un or a load of trouble!


Post# 490774 , Reply# 22   1/22/2011 at 13:28 (4,704 days old) by 3beltwesty ()        
The SEAL is most important

As far as the washers "SEAL", you want to make sure you use the same seal made for your machine. (Seal that is by the front ball bearing ) .

Washing machine seals have a special type "lip design", with the angle and air/water sides defined. An industrial seal with the same Od and Bore dimensions may fit, but fail sooner if the seal is a different design.

Often replacement washer parts are bundled with the 2 bears and the seal, and to buy the seal only requires more hunting. Some models do not just sell the seal only, or they do but the parts houses are not savy enough to find it.


CLICK HERE TO GO TO 3beltwesty's LINK


Post# 491008 , Reply# 23   1/23/2011 at 15:43 (4,703 days old) by azimuth ()        
Re: The SEAL is most important


@3beltwesty
Yes, had considered that seal might be tricky if going for generic bearings from a bearings supplier - run into those type of problems with other applications ~ powersteering seal, etc...
As far as trying to get the correct seal separately - we've had plenty of experience with spares depts being unable to identify their hand in front of their face; but they are by no means all like that! Probably find we can easily get a box of 100; but 1 might be more tricky!
I need to go chat to our local friendly appliance & spares shop, (link to Google view below), where they are extremely helpful and willing to give customers the benefit of their considerable experience -in fact, they go so far as to tell you if you could get whatever it is cheaper elsewhere! I Love his windowe displays, some of which are just a load of loose parts thrown in the display space!

And while the bearing on my 9901 might survive another few years, the suspension definitely needs attention, as it has managed to put a number of dents in the steel basket! It's been so good to me it deserves to be repaired before it destroys itself.


CLICK HERE TO GO TO azimuth's LINK


Post# 493304 , Reply# 24   2/2/2011 at 09:28 (4,693 days old) by azimuth ()        
Different seals

Looking at various bearing kits, all listed for this machine - I notice that there seems to be significant variation in the design of the seal. Not all offer good pics; some (the genuine part I believe) show the seal as a bi-colored ring with a 'trough or cup' in it & a lip, others show a similar design, but with a tapered spring attached. Some of cheaper ones appear to be different again, a 'simple' seal, without cup or lip. Many of these suppliers won't know much about the bearing/seal kit they're offering, except whether it's a genuine part.
If it comes to buying bearings & seal, I think caution is needed; & better off paying a little more for genuine, our at least good copies.
Debate currently underway as to whether halftub is better solution than new bearings & spider.


Post# 495968 , Reply# 25   2/12/2011 at 14:20 (4,683 days old) by azimuth ()        
WT761 seal & online retailers

Looking around online retailers, we found that images of bearings & seal often do not match the listing.
We've found at least 3 variants for bearing kits with differing seals; only one of which looks anything like the original hotpoint part. Speaking to our favorite - & outrageously helpful - local spares place, & another local parts retailer, we we're informed that while bearing kit for many (30 mm) WMA series is generic & fits literally hundreds of machines, the WT761 seal is different/unusual & very specific...further, many online retailers apparently are prone to showing images of 'any old part', & not necessarily the listed item (espares was mentioned particularly).
With sites where I cannot easily speak to someone, & confirm the exact details and description of the part, it makes me a bit wary.
The WT761 seal, with steel flange & rotating inner, hikes the price of the bearing kit up by about a third!
And although I've seen one, or maybe 2 places advertising "genuine hotpoint replacement parts", neither of my local, specialist spares & repairs places supply genuine hotpoint parts. One was 'GFK Bearings'.
I'm becoming very suspicious that some of the "really good deals" I've found online are probably too good to be true, and are not the one I require, especially when the pics are wrong...
Slow progress (& no ADSL for couple wreaks!)
Debate still ongoing between machine owner & engineer as to whether:-
1) "just bearing & seal kit"
2) "same as 1 but with new spider/shaft"
3) "half tub"
4) "same as 3 with new spider/shaft"

While old spider/shaft doesn't look bad, the most reliable repair is, of course, option4, but looking at over £110 in parts, before delivery!
Bearing & seal kit about £30 locally, & maybe a fiver cheaper online, inc postage (from source where we can confirm it's the right seal).
Tough call, it'd be a real pain to mend it on the cheap, only to fail early; but a lot to spend for peace-of-mind solution 4.
Then there's labor, any option that replaces spider will add a bit more, as screws nicely corroded into the alloy...
Decisions, decisions...
All the best.


Post# 496136 , Reply# 26   2/13/2011 at 08:39 (4,682 days old) by hotpoint95622 (Powys)        
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I would go with the new bearing, seal and spider kit, from Hotpoint, some times there are too many options available and it gets frustrating especially on the internet.
One thing is for sure, itís going to be hard work putting it all back together.

Good luck.



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