Thread Number: 32773
Wash habits: how full is your full load?
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Post# 493854   2/4/2011 at 03:45 (4,684 days old) by dj-gabriele ()        

In the past months there was some debate regarding the load capacity of American vs European machines, especially centered in the difference of drum volume vs. weight of clothes that could be processed in one batch.

So I thought, why not posting some photos to get the idea of what a "full standard load" (for each of us) is? And then again, after having washed and dried it, weight it and see if it corresponds to the stated capacity of the machine (if you have a weight, other than volume, indication).

In my machine, rated at 5 kg, this is what constitutes a "normal" load of cottons.

The first photo is with the drum paused

Post# 493856 , Reply# 1   2/4/2011 at 03:48 (4,684 days old) by dj-gabriele ()        

This photo is while the tub is turning.

As you can see there is no water nor suds visible even if the machine is well on with the washing cycle.
It's running cotton 40°C with AVA tablets detergent from Reckitt&Benkiser after the kitchen rags had a prewash and rinse alone with some bleach (yup, chlorine based, as I ran out of conventional one and they were badly stained)

Post# 493857 , Reply# 2   2/4/2011 at 04:03 (4,684 days old) by roscoe62 (Canada)        

When I first looked at this it appeared to be over load, but I can see there is room at the top of the door.Practice, as I have been told ,is that if you can put your hands in above the load before you start the cycle the machine has a full load, that is extend your arms to the back of the drum.
Now others have said unless there is an angle on the load as it pauses while washing, and I don't see one there, it is too full.If your clothes is coming clean, your not doing anything wrong.My cousin has a GE profile, she washes 16 pairs of jeans in hers, I asked her who cleaned up the mess after it blew up,apparently nobody it handled it and very well.How long her machine will last loading like that is another story.

Post# 493866 , Reply# 3   2/4/2011 at 06:30 (4,684 days old) by mrb627 (Buford, GA)        
Horizontal Axxis

mrb627's profile picture
I think the amount of laundry a machine can handle depends on whether the tub is truly horizontal or not.

IMO, A horizontal tub can wash a full load much better than one that is tilted at an angle. A tilted drum seems to promote tangling and the small pool of water sits at the back of the drum.

I also determine a full load based on what I am washing. For instance, permanent press clothing is best to only do a half load to minimize wrinkling. This is generally what most manufacturers recommend in the manual. Gentle/Delicates are more like 1/3.


Post# 493880 , Reply# 4   2/4/2011 at 07:38 (4,684 days old) by roscoe62 (Canada)        

Malcolm does your Speed Queen have a horizontal Tub?
My duet is tilted which explains now why every time I do more than one set of sheets they tangle and bad and with towels I have to limit the number unless I mix the load with hand and face towels.
When I have had to go to a laundromat the front loads were horizontal,interesting to say the least.
Thanks :)

Post# 493881 , Reply# 5   2/4/2011 at 07:47 (4,684 days old) by virabhadrasana (France / Italy)        

My machine (Siemens Siwamat XLS 1260) is rates 6 KG (drum capacity 53 L.) and a full load appears like in Dj Gabriele's picture. (Sorry I can't post any picture, I still don't have a digital camera).
Recently machines with the same drum size are quoted for 7 or even 8 KG.... Even MIELEs equipped with the 59.50 L.drum are quoted for 6.50, 7 or 8 Kg, depending on the model... (?) Results must not be the same with 2 more Kgs of laundry..

Post# 493893 , Reply# 6   2/4/2011 at 08:20 (4,684 days old) by mrb627 (Buford, GA)        
Speed Queen

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Yes, the Speed Queen is a ture HA machine.


Post# 493895 , Reply# 7   2/4/2011 at 08:25 (4,684 days old) by 3beltwesty ()        
Bout 1/5 to 1/4 of your image

With my new LG WM2501HVA a wash load is has never been that full; maybe once in the 35 times I have washed since Nov 26th when it arrived. I lost a lot of clothes in Katrina 5 years ago and have less dress clothes. I have more work clothes since I am still involved with rebuilding. I purposely do not wash Sunday white church shirts with dirty blue jeans! :) Thus I tend to wash about 2 to 3 times a week with the washers stuff separated by color and dirt level. About once or twice I have had my 27" wide washer packed that full, that was before the new washer arrived and I had several weeks stuff to wash.

If I just filled my machine with socks switched every day. it might take 1/4 to 1/2 year for my washer to get that full. Plus I would have to buy 1/2 years worth of socks too.

If I washed both bed sheets, 2 towels, several blue jeans and shirts worn in one week by machine looks about 1/4 full. The issue is does one buy more clothes and strive to fill the washer and have stains washed 1 month later; or just wash small loads. Since stains "set" with time, I try not to let clothes sit for months to fill the washer up.

My machine has a bar/level, load size indictator for fullness, It goes from 1 to 4 bars. The rare loads I did that look as full as your image had 3 bars. Once or twice I have gotten 2 bars. About every wash I do has 1 bar. Unless one pushes the "add extra water button" the water level is below the basket. ie the washer really is showering clothes with the button not pushed in.

If I took all my bedsheets, towels, and all items I use in 2 weeks I could have my machine as full as yours. The real issue is one ruins ones clothes by mixing church white dress shirts with dirt and oil covered bluejeans and bright clothes that bleed. It is sort of do-able if I use all cold water

A machine like mine is probably better for a family of five to 7 folks, that one person. That way the machine can be filled up with "like" items; and one does not have to wait a few months.

Post# 493897 , Reply# 8   2/4/2011 at 08:38 (4,684 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        
For Normal Cycles

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Front loading washing machines most always do their best when loaded at or near rated capacity. This applies to both cleaning and washer performance.

Under loading can give some front loaders problems especially with balancing, resulting in spins (if the washer will spin at all), that are out of balance. Enough of that goes on long enough it can cause problems.

Over loading is rough on bearing and other parts of the washer as well, and can lead to pre-mature wear and even demise of the washer.

For instance making a habit of shoving 15lbs of "thick and thirsty" bath linen into a 11lb rated washer is just asking for trouble. First there is the wear on bearings and other parts, then what may happen when the machine tries to spin/balance the load, and finally wear on pump/motor as torrents of water overwhelm, and cannot be drained properly.

Post# 493915 , Reply# 9   2/4/2011 at 09:54 (4,684 days old) by nrones ()        

Simple as you..
It depends, I rarely doo half or less than half loads.
When I wash in my 7kg GrandO+ my loads are from 4 to 5-6 kg. ;)

Post# 493944 , Reply# 10   2/4/2011 at 13:08 (4,684 days old) by dj-gabriele ()        

Anybody posting any pictures? :)

Post# 493948 , Reply# 11   2/4/2011 at 13:32 (4,684 days old) by rp2813 (Sannazay)        
Horizontal vs. Tilted

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Interesting comments.  I'm noticing more tangling with my perfectly horizontal Affinity than with the tilted tub of the Duet I used to have, mainly when I've got a set of fleece king sized sheets and pillow cases going in it.   Don't get me started on the companion dryer's handling of those same linens.  It rolls everything into a giant ball because of its skimpy drum size.


I don't pack stuff into my machine, but I do often fill the drum loosely.  Most of the time once the items inside are saturated, when the tub pauses to switch rotational direction the contents don't come much more than halfway up the window.


Post# 493958 , Reply# 12   2/4/2011 at 14:06 (4,684 days old) by mrb627 (Buford, GA)        
Bed Sheet Tangling

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Bed sheet tangling is all in the loading. Load in clusters like a unimatic and sheets will fair much better.


Post# 493965 , Reply# 13   2/4/2011 at 14:37 (4,684 days old) by ronhic (Canberra, Australia)        

ronhic's profile picture

I'm with Gabriele.....


That's what mine looks like when running a 'full' load...

Post# 494016 , Reply# 14   2/4/2011 at 20:07 (4,683 days old) by rp2813 (Sannazay)        

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Thanks Malcom. I'll try clustering next time.

Post# 494058 , Reply# 15   2/5/2011 at 07:37 (4,683 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        
My daily driver is ...

a 1989 Primus W10 commercial frontload washer. The rated capacity is 10kg(22LB.dry weight) Machine weight is ~425LB. I usually load it until full and have great results. It's better for the machine doing it this way. Being that this machine is rigid base, it has no suspension, thus it is bolted to the concrete floor. If I wash smaller loads the load spins on one side, causes the machine to groan, rock back and forth, shake the concrete floor and its just not good for the bearings.

This post was last edited 02/05/2011 at 08:01
Post# 494059 , Reply# 16   2/5/2011 at 07:40 (4,683 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

The question: "And then again, after having washed and dried it, weight it and see if it corresponds to the stated capacity of the machine (if you have a weight, other than volume, indication)." Well lets see...The Primus W10 is a rigid base machine and the cylinder is non-tilted horizontal.

Post# 494060 , Reply# 17   2/5/2011 at 07:41 (4,683 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

Here is my basket

Post# 494061 , Reply# 18   2/5/2011 at 07:43 (4,683 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

Here is my scale. It's old, but seems to work fine and does not require electricity.

Post# 494064 , Reply# 19   2/5/2011 at 07:46 (4,683 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

The basket weighs ~3.5 LB.

Post# 494065 , Reply# 20   2/5/2011 at 07:48 (4,683 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

This is ~22LB. worth of jeans(not including basket weight)

Post# 494066 , Reply# 21   2/5/2011 at 07:50 (4,683 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

The clothes out of the basket.

Post# 494067 , Reply# 22   2/5/2011 at 07:52 (4,683 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

Clothes loaded in the machine.

Post# 494068 , Reply# 23   2/5/2011 at 07:55 (4,683 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

Can this machine wash a load at its rated capacity? I'd say yes. Take a look at the video.

CLICK HERE TO GO TO supremewhirlpol's LINK

Post# 494131 , Reply# 24   2/5/2011 at 13:55 (4,683 days old) by logixx (Germany)        

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Yep, a full load to me looks just like in the first picture(s).

Ain't it interesting that whenever you see an American front loader on YouTube, most of the time, people only seem to fill them half-way up? Europeans seem to put more into their washers. I dare not even to think of what you'd say when you see a properly filled Euro dryer! The dried clothes fill the drum to the top - although loosely.

Post# 494142 , Reply# 25   2/5/2011 at 14:26 (4,683 days old) by 3beltwesty ()        
LG WM2501HVA loaded to 2 out of 4 load level bars

Here is a shot of some stuff NON white colored items I am washing today.

It is the first time the washer has been used since in the last 6 days. It is a wash load of darker stuff ie non whites.

It has two twin bedsheets, a pillowcase, 8 pairs of socks, two pairs of bluejeans, 4 colored shirts, two dark T shirts, one large 24x45 inch bath towel, one hand towel, two dish towels.

This shot is BEFORE the washer has started..

(1)To FILL the drum I would have to wait maybe until March and buy some more clothes.

(2) Or I could mix pure whites and UW with the rest too, or add super dirty work clothes with stark white church/business dress shirts.

This is a 27" (68 cm ) wide machine. Its basket/drum is about 22" in diameter and about 18" deep.

Post# 494148 , Reply# 26   2/5/2011 at 14:36 (4,683 days old) by 3beltwesty ()        
SHOT with clothes fluffed UP BEFORE any water is added

Here is a shot after the machine has sensed the load size, but BEFORE the water is showered on the clothes.

The machine rotates CCW and CW in random motions and the items then get "fluffed up" so the water shower can get to all the surfaces.

Post# 494151 , Reply# 27   2/5/2011 at 14:53 (4,683 days old) by 3beltwesty ()        
Shot #3 Now all items are WETTED, thus the basket appears b

After the clothes are all wetted, they are not all fluffed up.

The spin basket looks barely filled. This washer load was 2 out of 4 bars on its load indicator. The prewash setting and "extra add water" settings were used too.

If I added 3 times as many items, the bar sense level indicator would be either 3 or 4 .

Max is 4 bars.

In only once or twice times I have had the machine read 4 bars since I have owned in since new from Nov 2010.

Post# 494155 , Reply# 28   2/5/2011 at 15:25 (4,683 days old) by 3beltwesty ()        
Most Europeans have smaller items than Americans.

RE "Ain't it interesting that whenever you see an American front loader on YouTube, most of the time, people only seem to fill them half-way up? Europeans seem to put more into their washers. I dare not even to think of what you'd say when you see a properly filled Euro dryer! The dried clothes fill the drum to the top - although loosely. "

Most Europeans have smaller items than Americans.

Your washers are smaller, your cars and trucks are smaller, your refrigerators are smaller.

A normal washer in the USA is a 27"/68cm wide machine.

A normal washer in Europe is a 24" / 60cm wide machine.

If washed the EXACT/SIZE number of items in two different sized machines, the smaller machine appears to be filled more, since it really is.

A 24" machine in the USA is speciality item. Most all locla stores never have them in stock. It is a mail order/special order item. They have a niche small market in tiny apartments, yachts, offshore oil rig service boats. On land probably only one in 500 to 1000 here own a 24" machine.

Most non commerical washer buyers here buy at a local store. They actually look a the physical washer on a showroom floor. Since about all stored never have a small 24" machine, few buy them. They cost more or equal to a standard 27" machine, but hold less clothes, thus are a marketing flop. Those who buy them here do for space reasons, boats, tiny apartments.

One cannot LEGALLY even build the real small Europe/Japan Apartments here in the USA where there are modern building codes. Other codes in neighborhoods further define the minimum building size. Thus a code here might set a minimum building size of 1100sqft ( 100 sq meters) , but the covenants state 1800sqft (167 sq meters) is a minimum for that neighborhood.

A typical house here in 1952 was only about 1100sqft and had 2 adults and 3 kids. Today an average home is about double the size and has less than 2 folks living there.

Post# 494156 , Reply# 29   2/5/2011 at 15:34 (4,683 days old) by 3beltwesty ()        

The same goes with our pickup trucks. Most of the time they are not filled up with stuff either when in usage.

My SMALL old pickup has just a 2.3 liter motor. It is BIG enough to haul standard lumber like a 4x8 foot piece of plywood or sheetrock when the items are above the wheel wells. Its is only a 1/2 ton type truck, good enough for small loads.

Others drive pickups with wider beds, their motors are 5, 6.2, 8 liters. Some buy trucks with a 6000lb capacity because they get around goverment regs with the bigger truck, or really need that giant capacity.

There were some pickups made smaller than mine, they had to have plywood sheets not flat. Plus when loaded the runt motor was a bog factor too.

Post# 494173 , Reply# 30   2/5/2011 at 17:04 (4,683 days old) by ronhic (Canberra, Australia)        
I actually think.....

ronhic's profile picture
...what Alexander was saying is that we never see American front load machines loaded in the same way we see European machines loaded...

This has absolutely nothing to do with the actual capacity of the machine, just the way it appears when we see pictures/video of them in that:

- American machines generally appear to be less than half full....
- European machines, on the other hand, generally appear to be at least 3/4 (or more) full....

I've wondered if some of the reasons why we don't see could be that the American machines are incapable of washing with a truly full tub given their short cycle times (particularly the wash component), 2 rinses and ridiculously low water consumption expectations given the size of them....

I'd love to see a truly full load (filled right to the top, hand space only) washed on a 'normal' warm cycle both to see what the true weight capacity is AND see what the wash performance was like in comparison to any European machine machine filled the same way and using the same 'cottons 40c' cycle.....

Post# 494177 , Reply# 31   2/5/2011 at 17:44 (4,683 days old) by roscoe62 (Canada)        

Well I put two more towels in my machine today along with eight hand towels that are a fair size so I had in total eight towels about 30x50 in size and eight hand towels 18 x 23 and said, here we go.Lets see if the machine performs differently with a fuller load and it did.
I wasn't impressed, it didn't rinse very well, it seemed to not fill the way it usually does, like the machine was laboring but I did get my hands and arms over the load before I started the machine to make certain it would have the room to tumble. It didn't spin as dry and the machine had one hell of a time trying to get it to balance to go into spin, at one point I left the room it was too antagonizing to watch any more.When it came time to take it out, it was so tangled I felt like setting it all on fire, UHH!!!
Then I had to separate the load into two and redo the rinse but I dried it all together, and it came out kinda hard not as soft as they normally do with just six towels and remember I used no fabric conditioner or dryer sheets period on towels they don't need it.As a rule they dry pretty soft without it but not this time, it could have been longer drying time in the dryer that caused this?
So the answer is NO, a bigger machine does not mean better, it's great for the bulkier items but in my experience it didn't do a better job on a larger load, as it says it should.

Post# 494199 , Reply# 32   2/5/2011 at 19:23 (4,682 days old) by 3beltwesty ()        
Basic Geometry; percentage full varies with the size of cont

The typical non USA machine is smaller in volume, thus for a given load of clothes the smaller machine is fuller.

The is basic geometry. If one places 4 folks in an old VW Bug, the car appears fuller than a 4 folks in a 1970 Cadillac.

The spin basket drum in a 1963,1976 or 1992 FL 27" frame Westinghouse is 22" in diameter. My new 27" frame LG WM2501HVA has the exact diameter spin basket, but it is 1.5 times deeper. ie 18" deep versus 12" deep.

A small 24" machine does NOT have a 22" diameter basket,it is several inches smaller in diameter.

The tub in a 24" machine is roughly the same size as a 27" machine's spin basket.

If one places the same clothes in a 24, 27 and 30" FL washer, each larger machine will appear less full, since it is really a less percentage filled.

If one places 12 oz of Coke Cola in a Tokyo McDonalds cup, it is a Large McDonalds Tokyo cup. In Dallas Texas it fills up a small size McDonalds cup, since a large cup there is often 24 to 32 oz.

When I was at a McDonalds in Munich about 20 years ago, the small cup was about just 6 or 8 oz, sort of like McDonalds used 40 years ago here in the USA.

If somebody in Europe places their weeks groceries in their European refrigerator, it too will be "more full" than if a typical Texas homeowners refrigerator was used, since the USA fridge is typically 1.5 to 3 times larger. Small dorm and small office fridges in the USA are often full sized items in other areas.

If the OZ/European/Japan/USA housewife each buys 2 cubic feet of goods for their fridge, each fills their own fridge a different percentage, since their fridges are all different sizes.

Many of us Americans just fill our washers, trucks, and fridges on what is required to do the job. ie these devices are filled less, because we tend to have bigger devices. Thus I purposely washed a weeks load of dark/colored items for 1 week, instead of waiting one month to "fill the machine up". If I would have custom ordered a smaller 24" machine last November it would do the job too, but the machine would be fuller, thus non USA folks would "feel better". In cars and trucks, my small car has just a 1.5 L motor. It gets better gas mileage than my bigger truck with 2.3L motor, but the insurance costs more. The small car has a high repair cost with a minor bump.

Try placing 6 folks with luggage in a 1971 VW Bug versus a 1971 Cadallac. The bug is fuller and has folks and luggage hanging out of the windows.

When one goes to a USA commercial coin laundromat, there are some giant machines that will take the equalvalent of many home USA washers of clothes. Normally folks use these for giant things like rugs.

Since most 27" USA machines are larger than non usa 24" FRAME machinces, for a given load of items the smaller machines are filled more in percentage. Many of us Americans are nor really bothered by others concerns of "not filling" or trucks,washers, fridges to please others. Buying extra food and clothes to fill our devices seems rather wastefull. Maybe the USA is more advanced in this issue of concerns about waste? Tripling my inventory to fill washers and fridges seems rather odd, so does many other non usa things too.

In clothes, here even if I bought 10 times the number of clothes I would still wash stuff weekly to prevent stains from setting. There are several other practical matters to, one remembers were one spilled stuff within a week, and lessor so after a month or two. We traveling all the time in California 2 decades ago, I had enough clothes to go 4 months, and wash loads could be always "FULL".

Post# 494214 , Reply# 33   2/5/2011 at 20:21 (4,682 days old) by appnut (TX)        

appnut's profile picture
I have to comment--after having my Fridgemore for 4 years and 4 months, I"m findinng that a load of towels, if I fill it about 3/4 full, it has a tendency to balance a little better. It's only 3.1 cu. ft. with thick 30 x 52 towels, that works out to be about 4 sets of towels--towel, wash cloth, and maybe two or 3 hand towels. Any more than that, it has difficulty balancing. Same way with queen size sheets--one set does juset fine. I can cram two sets in, but it cannot balance hardly at all. Even with 3 said size sheets and a set of pillowcases, it still has difficulty balancing. I did ut 8 towels & wash clothes in a load two weeks ago (the very large and thick ones). I had to fold the towels up to get them to all fit in the machine with the fist at the top. It didn't have quite as difficult a time balancing, but rinsing was quite poor and had to do a short wash cycle to get all the soap out. Pretty discouraigng. But, I'm still using less water than my old Lady Shredmore, clothes are cleaner, are lasting longer, and taking less time to dry.

Post# 494217 , Reply# 34   2/5/2011 at 20:30 (4,682 days old) by hoover1100 (U.K.)        
Maybe the USA is more advanced in this issue of concerns abo

Well buying a machine much bigger than you could ever fill, therefore constantly running it very underloaded is about the most wasteful thing you can do in terms of laundry.

So no, I highly doubt that is the case, I suspect it's more the 'bigger is better' view that seems common in the U.S.

Many people here who opt for the new larger capacity machines (because the adverts told them to) are finding they cannot fill them, and are just wasting energy and water they needn't had they bought a machine sized correctly for their needs.

Same thing happens with refrigerators. Many people opt for the newer "American style" side by side refrigerators and never stand a chance of filling them anywhere near capacity, so they just sit there, half empty, using a hell of a lot more electricity than they need to to keep that amount of food cool. Madness!

It isn't just appliances either. Look at these people who buy such oversized televisons for tiny rooms. Yes, the screen may be bigger, but it's so big you can't fit anymore furniture in the room!

Don't even get me started on cars, why people buy 4x4s when they will NEVER take them off road and rarely, if ever, have weather bad enough to require them is beyond me, it's all status isn't it really. The vast majority of people I know need nothing bigger than a VW polo, yet waste stupid amounts of fuel lugging their Range Rovers and what not around!

If everyone bought houses, cars and appliances, which fulfilled their needs with minimal wastage, I'm sure we would save so much money, not to mention the environmental benefits. Society today is so obsessed with having goods as a status symbol, this is never going to happen though.

My machine is usually as full, if not slightly fuller than the top pictures.


This post was last edited 02/05/2011 at 21:08
Post# 494221 , Reply# 35   2/5/2011 at 20:51 (4,682 days old) by lavamat_jon (UK)        

5kg load of normal darks I did today, just your average Cottons Universal 40oC cycle.  Load consists of 2 pairs of jeans, pair of cords, 2 pairs of joggers (sweatpants), 3 t shirts, 2 shirts, a hoodie, and several boxers & socks.  Just registered at 100% on the load sensor.  Bear in mind this is of the "smaller" generation of European washers, my mum's 6kg Miele can hold quite a bit more.



Post# 494222 , Reply# 36   2/5/2011 at 20:52 (4,682 days old) by lavamat_jon (UK)        

Drum shot

Post# 494223 , Reply# 37   2/5/2011 at 20:54 (4,682 days old) by lavamat_jon (UK)        


Post# 494224 , Reply# 38   2/5/2011 at 21:09 (4,682 days old) by lavamat_jon (UK)        

And the rest - took me a few attempts to get this due to Miele's almost instantaneous reversing!

Post# 494226 , Reply# 39   2/5/2011 at 21:18 (4,682 days old) by dj-gabriele ()        
Big machines in Europe:

They exist over here too (just think of the Ariston Extendia or Whirlpool Dreamspace).

My father has had the first and second generation Whirlpool Dreamspace, the first machine was rated at 10 kg with a 92 litres drum, the second, got in warranty when the bearing on the first failed and the door disassembled by itself, making repairs uneconomic, is rated at 11 kg with the same drum. They simply lengthened all the cotton programmes by 20 minutes...

Both machine could wash well (by the extent a Whirlpool machine can do) to their stated capacity, rinse (quite badly) and spin it. So that is just double the wash load in a standard machine and they could be filled with clothes completely to the top part of the tub.

At over 1290 Euros without the useless pedestal, I would have expected a little more quality but at least they would process a full stated load. But again "cottons 40°C" was 2:20 minutes long and "cottons 60°C" was 3:00 hours long.

Sorry not to have an actual photo but now they have a traditional sized Candy CMF 125.

Post# 494227 , Reply# 40   2/5/2011 at 21:20 (4,682 days old) by 3beltwesty ()        

All the washers available here are typically "larger than one needs", thus using a partially filled machine is quite normal.

As far as waste, the typical usa machine is used 2.5 times per week, ie about 130 times per year. If it lasts 5 years, that is 650 washes.

(1) That is what my machine cost in dollars after taxes. Thus if it dies in 5 years, each wash cost 1 dollar per load in wearout.

(2)Water per load costs me about 15 to 20 cents

(3) soap cost about 5 cents

(4) Electricity costs 2 cents for my new LG and about 3 for my old 1976 machine.

One can weight the cost of special ordering a small 24" machine, or using a Haier 21 and using full loads too.

When one has a job and has costs associated with ones times worth, items (2) to (3) are in the noise, and using the machine more really doesnt not matter either.

For my life; having to wait a month to fill a washer would be wastefull.

One could argue that non USA machines like washers or cars are too big too, since not all pack them full, not all seats are full in busses or cars.

In the USA there is an attitude that we should be able to use our tools like the way we want to, without government rules.

Typically a low capacity 27" FL washer than mine at local stores is an even cheaper model. One googles the model numbers and finds a recall or broken spiders in 2 to 3 years. It is hard to say if it would cost me less to have bought the 349 buck FL washer that was 7/10 the size and cost 6/10 last november.

Running the 27" machine here at 1/4 load really only effects the products life; since its run costs are nil. The water + soap + electricity to run it one month is about 2 to 3 dollars. My cellphone costs 30 times this.

Running a washer always full too means the water level is higher, thus the water seal sees more splashing, the bearings see a higher load too.

Post# 494236 , Reply# 41   2/5/2011 at 21:40 (4,682 days old) by hoover1100 (U.K.)        
government rules

There is a truly hilarious myth going round that the Government is forcing people in the U.S. to wash in cold water and not enough of it.

It's simply the fact that the average consumer is more interested in an energy saving machine, therefore machines that are more efficient on paper appeal more, sell more units, and energy hogging machines fall out of grace to the point they are no longer financially viable for manufacturers to produce.

That's how 'free market' (there is no such thing as a free market, never has been, never will be) capitalism works, a principle America seems to pride itself on, yet gets all in a fluster about and blames the Government when it dosen't work their way!

I know that it's probably more expensive to buy a smaller machine in the U.S., which would not be feasable, but that isn't the point here, the point is it wastes more energy and water to wash a small load in a bigger machine.


Post# 494246 , Reply# 42   2/5/2011 at 21:58 (4,682 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

I think it's a number of things:

For people who have disposable income, well yes, they get those big expensive things like $114,000 Range Rovers just because they can. While others can barely rub 2 nickel together and they get items like a FL washer out of necessity. I think marketing of the items plays a role too.

I also think it is one's preferences:When it comes to washing machines, I have a number of them. They range from 6LB. to 50LB capacity. I have both 27" and 24" EU style consumer FL's, I also have a 34" wide commercial FL made in Belgium. One of my Preferences is that the machine has to use a REAL amount of water, so Horsey LG had to go. Depending on how much time I have to devote to washing my clothes determines which machines I use. Also for me, there is the price issue. Now I know lots of the UK guys and gals love the Miele washers, and will pay an arm + leg + left eye for one. That's probably why they don't exist in my area, a machine like that with a small capacity is just too expensive. Not everyone can spend gobs of money on washers either. I have never seen a Miele in person.
-Just my point of view.

Post# 494258 , Reply# 43   2/5/2011 at 23:18 (4,682 days old) by ronhic (Canberra, Australia)        

ronhic's profile picture

Roscoe - What machine were you using when you did that test for you may well have been the only person who read what I wrote rather than their own interpretation.....


I think many of you may have missed my point....


What I want to know does not actually depend on if it is a large washer or a small washer, European or not or even if it has a heater or not....


What I am intrigued by is that when you see American machines, they seem half (or less) full, compared to when you see a European I was wondering how the American machine would fare if it was filled in the same way that a European one would be....that is, FULL, not half full.....


People tend to buy larger capacity machines because they 'need' them. Most never use the capacity.


It has nothing to do with anything other than if:


'I fill the drum to the TOP without forcing items in, will the thing wash the items clean on a standard warm cotton cycle?'


It's a simple question really and one that I cannot answer given that there are very very few American made/designed front load machines here....95% or more are European 'style'

Post# 494260 , Reply# 44   2/5/2011 at 23:33 (4,682 days old) by 3beltwesty ()        


The government here is often about social engineering.

They give a "kick back" as a tax break to washer makers on their washers that use little water; to solar panels even it really has no payoff and is a boondoggle. It really doesnt matter if there is any gain, it is a payback often to fit an agenda.

The LG machine here when pushes the add water button normally is ok for stuff not too dirty. If something is really dirty one should use the prewash too; thus one has a longer wash cycle.

You can be upset that there is waste because my 1976 FL machine uses 30 gallons and 0.22 KW hour, and my LG today uses less but takes takes 75 minutes versus 43 minutes.

Basically the new machine takes longer because is it showering clothes. It farts around too much. The old machine is half done washing while the new machine is trying to shower clothes. The software is designed to fit the government agenda; no water and to hell with somebodies time.

To say washing consumes gobs of electricity is absurd. The 1976 machine takes 0.22 KWhr; about 3 cents. The LG uses even less; about 2 cents or less per load. If I double the loading of the LG to fill it more; I save 1 cent of electricity.

The real annoyance is the newer machine takes more time. This is not a concern for the government, since time is a do not care for them.

As far as cold water; many of us have used cold water for 50 years now. Today it is even easier since soaps are better.

The prime difference here is a 24" machine really is a freak beast in the usa, one mostly I have seen used locally where a Miele is used on a mulitmillionaires yacht being built at a local shipyard, or a oil rig crew boat. Even if somebody gave me one, no local service would know how to work on one.

The ordering a Sears 24" machine has its worries too, local service would probably require a New Orleans or Atlanta guy thus service costs would be higher.

Here my folks got there first FL Westinghouse in 1947 and another in 1976. Then I got the LG last november. If it last 4 to 5 years I will feel OK.

What really drives the market here is PRICE. Most folks want a washer that will last 5 to 10 years at least. New FL washers that arrived after 1990 got the mold issues, something none of us old FL users NEVER ever heard of before.

Here I have used FL washers for over 50 years, thus really they are nothing new, except the cycle time is longer.

There is about a 200 buck tax kickback to washer makers as tax break when washers use less water. It is just like when a car is de-tuned, or when a diesel truck turns off automatically at idle to "get the government numbers higher"

One reason many folks always tend to use the "add water button" is we get cleaner clothes. If it was the default; the maker does not get the 200 buck kickback as tax break.

Post# 494262 , Reply# 45   2/5/2011 at 23:45 (4,682 days old) by 3beltwesty ()        
24" machines are not normal here on land.

I actually have never even seen a 24" frame machine in this area, except on plans for local yachts and oil crew boats being built locally. Even in local used ebay, CL and newspapers I have never seen a used 24" machine to buy to fart around with.

A 24" machine is what a multimillionaire gets for his yacht. A tow boat going down the mississippi river often has a 24" machine, so does a ocean oil rig service boat. They buy them for space saving reasons.

A local Sears store would not dare order one for the sale floor, to freakish.

In small condos with no washers some folks buy a portable Chinese Haier HLP 21 type washer, about 1 cubic feet and holds 6.6 Lbs. I bought off of ebay for 5 dollars, plus 39 freight as is. The sheet metal one can bend by hand!

Post# 494264 , Reply# 46   2/6/2011 at 00:11 (4,682 days old) by 3beltwesty ()        

Ronhic; how "well" an american FL washes when stuffed full depends on the water level somewhat.

The old 1976 has a water level control; one can set the water level where ever one wants to.

Todays FL machine has the government involved. Software sets the water level; not you as an end user.

If one has the machine backed full and the machine senses it is only 1/2 feull, one has just showering, barely any sits in actual water.

If one has the machine backed full and the machine thinks it is more full than the last example; one gets "allowed" more water by the water cops.

Ponder why supremewhirlpool said he did not like LG based one low water levels.

Ponder why on another thread another is trying to get their LG to use more water.

My machine I got was bought because of price; I really did not want to pay more than about 600 bucks and the lower cost FL models on sale had a recall and gobs of spider failures. If my machine last 5 year I will be happy. I have ZERO FAITH that if I paid 1200 for a FL washer it will last a lot longer. The whole purchase was the machine is disposable. I would pay 1200 to 1800 for a machine if I really thought it was made with a kryponite spider.

What is a normal sized machine sold in an area really drives the pricing. 24" frame is oddball and freak here thus high end for yachts; or that roll the dice 24" machine via mail order with little local service base.

At local stores, smaller 27" sizes (volumes) are the starter models with few features that cost less. When one "gets a better machine" and moves up the price ladder; the volume stated gets larger. My machine is hawked as a 4.2 cuft model and it was 599 on sale marked down from 899.

In about 8 local stores, the smallest FL unit I ever saw was a 3.2 unit with few features and long rap sheet of issues. It was tempting at only 349, even more disposable.

Few locally fix anything; it all goes into a landfill; steel scrap goes to china.

The real waste is the machines are often too costly to fix.

Post# 494266 , Reply# 47   2/6/2011 at 00:36 (4,682 days old) by appnut (TX)        

appnut's profile picture
I feel I need to contribute something here. We've been brainwashed into bigger is better. so the capcity/size wars have been going on for the last 5 years or so. Many people have comforters here and that's one attraction for these extra large front loaders--ability to wash all your bedding at home and not have to go to the coin laundry to wash them. I have a queen size bedspread which won't fit in my Fridgemore. I hate having to go to the coin laundry to wash. That's why I will look forward to beig able to wash all my bedding at home some day.

I guess forI am a tremendous exception to the norm. Over the years I have amassed quite a number of clothes. I don't have to wash but ever couple of weeks--depending upon what it is, I can go for 2-4 weeks. Part of that is driven by me being by myself. I don't like being reminded I am by myself so my wash loads, even after properly sorting, are still rather large--it makes me think I have a family. Plus, I"m a stocky guy and my clothes are bigger than average. Like only 4 to 5 pair of jeans fit comfortably in the Fridgemore. Anymore and it's wayy overloaded. It was the same way with the Lady Shredmore.


Post# 494274 , Reply# 48   2/6/2011 at 01:54 (4,682 days old) by ronhic (Canberra, Australia)        

ronhic's profile picture
....the more I think on it, the more I'm glad that in Oz, the consumer gets the kick-backs, not the manufacturer...

The only incentive for manufacturers to make efficient machines is that they have to carry a water and energy rating label...the consumer makes the final choice...

- want a machine with a heater, buy a front loader - they've all got them here...
- want something that's more traditional, buy a top loader - it'll use pretty much the same amount as your grans machine if you choose the right cycle....

...and if you're lucky, your council will offer you between $150-200 as an incentive to buy a 4 star or better water rated washer....

But the manufacturer gets nothing....mind, it doesn't hurt that we don't make any washers here anymore, but you get the drift....

Oh, and if the machine that is submitted for testing doesn't wash and rinse to a minimum standard, it isn't able to be sold aspect of Government testing that actually attempts to ensure results are acceptable.

Post# 494324 , Reply# 49   2/6/2011 at 04:40 (4,682 days old) by roscoe62 (Canada)        

The machine I have is a whirpool duet,tilted drum.It does do a good job on bulkier items like the comforter I did yesterday, but when I put the "full" load in not so good.When my sister was home for Christmas with the monsters and had a load of clothes to do, six pairs of jeans, six t-shirts, a hoodie, and socks.She uses a Neptune with a slightly smaller drum, she was going to split the load, I said no there is room for all of it, she filled the washer, reluctantly,and it did not go into the final spin?
Why you ask, it could not balance the load, it was too tangled, so out it had to come to re-spin.Actually I made her do another rinse with the separated load and what I have noticed when this happens was when the washer is put on rinse and spin only it seems to use more water than it does on a complete cycle? Sometimes it doesn't finish the spin cycle because of tangling and it is most times towels or sheets.If I put more than two sets of sheets in the washer, hell breaks out, so I don't bother.It is a nuisance after your family leaves and you have to do more loads than you thought after buying this "huge capacity" machine.
You can imagine the mess I had with suds lock when I was using a liquid, can't you.

Post# 494329 , Reply# 50   2/6/2011 at 05:10 (4,682 days old) by ronhic (Canberra, Australia)        
Good grief....

ronhic's profile picture
...I'd have less hair than I have now!

My machine is rated at 6.5kg, the same as current model Miele 'standard' size machines. I have absolutely no hesitation putting 4 Queen sheets and 8 pillow cases in...

....and getting perfect results out. No suds issues, no spin drama....

Post# 494368 , Reply# 51   2/6/2011 at 08:50 (4,682 days old) by roscoe62 (Canada)        

You are one of the lucky ones.
It's all in how the machine "operates" as I was told by the technician when he was here when I had the Neptune from hell.There still aren't enough plastic explosives to feed into that if I still had it.
Thanks Ronhic :)

Post# 494418 , Reply# 52   2/6/2011 at 11:14 (4,682 days old) by dj-gabriele ()        

Hey guys, that's an interesting conversation but as usual it is becoming an apology to the "American right to waste"!

My intent was just to see which were the tangible differences between a "loaded" machine the European/Australian (as it seems to be the same) way and the American one.

Post# 494434 , Reply# 53   2/6/2011 at 12:24 (4,682 days old) by 3beltwesty ()        

Few if any folks in the usa have a feel or even can find the specs on the Kg of wash items their washer will hold, thus Kg at best might as be some bad made up thing from a SiFi movie.

My own LG WM2501HVA is hawked as a 4.2 cuft model. When I figure the actual volume based on my measurements it is a 3.8 to 3.9 cuft model. The basket is about 22" in diameter and about 18" long, maybe really 17.3 to 17.8 because of the glass etc. The 1976 Westinghouse has a 22" dia basket that is 12" deep; thus about a 2.5 to 2.6 cuft model.

Lbs even tends not to be a metric used in hawking washers in the USA in home washers; it is more a commercial term. It is used more in older washers.

When I looked at hundreds of new washers last November, and read gobs of spec sheets; I NEVER saw any reference to Kg or Lbs of wash. Even if one asks the top salesperson, or does web research, these weight /mass terms are not a parameter most USA home washers use.

Thus imagine walking into a place that sells washers in the UK, OZ, NZ, Japan and asking how much that new Acme washer will hold in weight /mass with units in Goblets, Centons, Bizzaros, Crazys, Goofballs!

The marketing of washers in the USA is even more confusing because of how the cuft number is derived. It is NOT a dumb measurement of the volume like a balloon or trash bag of gas inserted in the basket would fill. It is a cooked derived number, sometimes HIGHER than the units actual volume. Thus the same exact stainless spin basket when used in different washers give different hawked/marked/government capacities. The same exact mechanical box can be rated at two different volumes, depending on the water polices specs and the software use to work the specs.

***Another LG washer that has the EXACT same spin basket as mine (labeled 4.2) might be 4.5 cuft or 4.0 cuft; depending on the software and test conditions and water polices water ratings.

As appnut mentioned, hawking washers by larger being better is normal here.

A giant fluffy comforter fits a lot somewhat better in my new larger washer than older machine. I have really only one left since Katrina and it is for another bed That got junked, thus this is a non issue for me now. Before Katrina I had a monster surplus of clothes, now since many got lost I am on the other side of the fence.


Beds in the USA are often, twin/single, Full, Queen and King sized.

Here is a SMALL usa comforter a FULL 76x86 inch one stuffed in the spin basket of the 1976 FL Westy. ie stuffed in and it is "HANGING OUT" of the spin basket. This basket is 22" diameter and 12" deep; about 2.8 to 2.9 cubic feet. This is too big to wash well, and its basket is larger than most 24" machines overseas.

Post# 494440 , Reply# 54   2/6/2011 at 12:38 (4,682 days old) by 3beltwesty ()        
Here is the same FULL comforter in the LG washer that is 1.5

Here is the same FULL 76x86" small comforter that actually fits in the modern LG washer.

Since it really will not fit in the smaller washer, the non usa stance seams to be one uses the local laundromat.?

This comforter is really just a small one; for a small FULL bed. Gobs of folks have comforters that are for Queen and King sized beds or even larger.

This comforter is "sensed" by the washer as just a paltry load size, ie 1 or of 4 bars. Thus one uses the bulky program setting to use more water.

Post# 494448 , Reply# 55   2/6/2011 at 13:03 (4,682 days old) by 3beltwesty ()        
Comforter fills about 3/4 the drum while wet and being washe

Here is the Full comforter in the wash cycle of the LG. The comforter fills up about 3/4 of the projected area one sees.

The decades old stance going back to the 1940's with American FL washers is one PURPOSELY wants to have SOME "free room" so the wash article actually can move around during the wash cycle. This is so the articles get to see a better wash action. ie it is considered bad practice is stuff a machine so full that the things are trapped and never move. This is in the 1947 Westy manual even.

Maybe the stance in non usa machines is all the wash article are stuck together and never move with respect to another? :)

With this wash load I probably could have also inserted a pair of blue jeans or 2; but no more, UNLESS ones goal was to have the items all no to move with respect to each other. At the start of an odd load, it is hard to figure how much room will be free one water shower is finished, ie the wash cycle.

Post# 494464 , Reply# 56   2/6/2011 at 14:33 (4,682 days old) by amyswasher ()        
LG model

Looking at this. I think I'm way overloading my machine. They advertise these things as doing more per load that top loaders (ha-ha). I reduced the load and I don't have-to iron near as much, Thanks Guys.

Post# 494467 , Reply# 57   2/6/2011 at 14:41 (4,682 days old) by 3beltwesty ()        
Consider the waste in trips to the laundromat to wash bulky

IN the USA if one was "into using BIG comforters" and had just a small 24" European machine one would be traveling to the local laundromat to wash ones bulky items instead of washing them at home.

One has the added waste of time spent; the miles driven, the wear on the car, the added cost of paying 2 to 4 dollars in quarters to use the larger machine.

This trip to the coin laundromat is often an adventure. One has the dryers all full and folks have left, thus WW3 can start if one removes another's clothes and they are still wet. Thus what one does is try to tie up a dryer so one has one already to use. Ie you take some towels to be dried to tie the dryer up, so one is not waiting on a dryer.

When in California, the closest coin laundromat was only 1/2 mile away. Today on the other side of the country the closest one is about 6 miles away, ie about a 20Km round trip.

Is a 20Km round trip to wash ones clothes considered normal and green in non USA places?

In the USA going to a coin laundromat can be upscale classy to down right slummish and dangerous. There are times where every bozo wants to bum coins/quarters or soap from you, or "share" dryers ; or the place closes earlier than what is printed on the door and one has used the joint for years.

In California it was quite normal that nobody there in a laundromat spoke English. Washers would be used for dyeing clothes and ones white clothes would taken on the odd tint of the dye used. If one goes outside, some odd character will throw their clothes into your dryer since all are in usage. You go out to your car to fetch a magazine to read and find your washer full of dress white shirts has bluejeans and colored bras, and tennis shoes too. And it turns out she is not a total fox but a 350Lb blob with an attitude and is drunk. I have used coin machines at laundromats here for over 4 decades; the cross section of folks can be very odd.

A conforter in the deep south is at best a seasonal item, used when it is cold, stored when it is warmer.

Post# 494469 , Reply# 58   2/6/2011 at 14:46 (4,682 days old) by Hoover1100 (U.K.)        
Maybe the stance in non usa machines is all the wash article

No, it's to fill the machine to the point that it is full, yet still gives optimum results, with minimum waste.

As for trips to the laundromat to wash large comforters. We don't have comforters, we have duvets, which are used with a duvet cover on them. The actual duvet itself only needs washing about twice a year under normal conditions.

Now, why would I buy a machine and constantly run it almost empty, just for those occasions every 6 months when I may need a larger machine? It makes more sense to take these items to a laundrette to be washed. Aside from that, my machine still holds a double duvet quite comfortably, it is only my parent's king size duvet which needs to be taken to the laundrette.

@Amyswasher if your clothes are coming out clean then you aren't overloading your machine. The picures of LGs in this thread are VERY underloaded.

This thread seems to be confirming that it is not a case of European machines being too small for many people, but one of American machines being much too big for many people.


This post was last edited 02/06/2011 at 15:46
Post# 494482 , Reply# 59   2/6/2011 at 15:06 (4,682 days old) by ronhic (Canberra, Australia)        
Times have a changed....

ronhic's profile picture

....since 1947....


...and even since 2007!


...but I agree that there should be some movement of the items in a washer to help push water through them or else they will just go around and around. However, you don't need a great deal of movement given the increase in cycle times compared to older machines. The FULL drum of dry clothes will compact by about 4" or so when wet. This is enough room to wash effectively.


Time is a key difference between European and American machines. European normal 'cotton warm' cycles are generally 120 minutes or more to ensure that the machine is able to wash a CAPACITY load correctly. American machines take around half that, from what I gather, on the same cycle.


You can't have it all:


Low water usage




Large, usable capacity




Fast cycles




Great wash results....


Something has to give and I believe that American manufacturers have chosen to basically sell machines that just can't do the job that they APPEAR or are MARKETED to do...that is, be used to their full CAPACITY every time...


...sure, they can take a large comforter when you need to wash it (how often exactly???), but ask the same machine to wash filled to the brim and it seems as though they don't like it at all...


The shame of it all is that America used to lead the world in this field in the late 1940's/1950's when quality was king. Now it's the mighty dollar (again and no different in most countrys either by the way). The same brands are selling high specification machines that sing and dance, but given the technology, metalurgy, plastics processing and general manufacturing improvements that are around today, they just don't hold up as well as their 'grand-washers' did 50yrs ago.


Nothing we didn't know ....

Post# 494486 , Reply# 60   2/6/2011 at 15:14 (4,682 days old) by dj-gabriele ()        
Is a 20Km round trip to wash ones clothes considered normal

I don't think that ANYWHERE in Europe one has to travel that much to find a laundromat or laundry to wash one's comforter! Distances are way smaller!
...well, maybe in the remote regions of the Alps or on the Scottish highlands!

I never bothered nor I'm interested in getting a bigger washing machine for that kind of items!
I give them to my favourite laundry and get them back 2 days later, cleaned, dried and vacuum packed and it costs around 12-18 euros, the laundromat costs at least 6€ to wash and 6€ to dry, so there's no point in using overused machines that god-only-knows what they've washed before!

Anyway, in Italy we have comforters/duvets that may or may not have a removable cover (most often not) and under it the proper "top" sheet and on the mattress there is the cover and the bottom sheet. So you only need to change the sheets weekly and the duvet and mattress cover are to be laundered only a few times a year!

Maybe the stance in non usa machines is all the wash article are stuck together and never move with respect to another? :)

You might haven't not noticed the photos I posted, first with a stationary drum and the other with the revolving drum, it almost doesn't look like the same load!
And the photos were shoot only 30 seconds apart... so the clothes get continuous relative motion! And my machine is an especially crappy one! Go figure with a better one!

Post# 494490 , Reply# 61   2/6/2011 at 15:33 (4,682 days old) by 3beltwesty ()        


Most folks buy a washer to wash clothes, to save time. They really do not want to drive to the laundromat 3 or 4 times a year to wash bulky large items.

The average washer here is larger than ones sold in the UK.

*YOU* have the advantage of going to stores and actually looking at all those small 24" frame machines; we do not.

A small 24" frame washer that you think we all should own is really not marketable to the average Joe/Jane homeowner here in the USA. It is like marketing a stove that has less burners than 4, or a pickup that will not haul a 4x8 foot piece of plywood. It is like marketing a TV in Europe that cannot watch soccer, nobody would buy them.

One could in theory mail order a 24" Miele for the home for 2 to 3 thousand dollars, or by that cheap 600 buck Sears 24" machine via a catalog and hope repairs will not be absurd.

Here in the USA most folks do not buy washers then have never looked at before in person.

Most pickup trucks and clothes washers here are never always used "full"; they only are partial full.

If one has a fleet of trucks and washers; one can have many different sizes of them and use the size required for each job.

A single user here is not going to buy a small truck or washer and rent a larger one 2 to 4 times a year. One gets eaten up in rental costs, insurance with the truck, round trip costs with the laundromat trips for bigger wash jobs.

The average truck or washer buyer buys the product and does consider it's max capacity for large odd few jobs each year.

Here *IF* there was via pure magic several name brand 24" frame machines at local stores for folks to look at, there might be actual sales to Joe the Plummer and Suzie homemaker.

The market here is not 24" frame machines at all. Europe probably has more 10x to 50X more users of 27" machines than we have of 24" machines here.

Nobody here has a mindset of filling up their grocery basket, washer or pickup truck. The do what is required to do the job.

The water level and electricity and soap go up with larger washer load sizes, thus the is no reason to fill a washer always full.

Post# 494494 , Reply# 62   2/6/2011 at 15:55 (4,682 days old) by Haxisfan (Europe - UK / Italy)        
Full loads are boring...

haxisfan's profile picture
Hi there, I find full loads boring especially if you're the only one who deals with the laundry... smallish to medium loads are quicker to dry, fold and put away. If i must overload the washer cos' I've got a lot of stuff in the hamper then I would make sure that they are all colourfast items and I set the washer on the longest possible cycle.

I wash dark items on a daily basis as I get lots of sweaty stuff from the gym but they're always small loads, say... up to 3kg and my machine has a dry clothes capacity of 6kg... so, it kind of looks half full when the clothes are wet. I am actually obsessed with weighting my loads almost everytime, altough I by now learned to recognise how big a load is by timing the amount of water the washer takes during the main wash: however this can be misleading cos' some loads are more absorbent than others. I also tend to use a different wash programme for loads bigger than 3kg... say a cycle with a main wash which lasts over half an hour but I prefer a 20 minute main wash for small loads. Do you do that too?

Nice thread... thanks.

Post# 494496 , Reply# 63   2/6/2011 at 15:58 (4,682 days old) by 3beltwesty ()        
Delema; 24" frame machines are not at stores for us to b

A person who moves to USA and wants to look at a 24" Machine at Home Depot, Sears, Lowes has the problem that theses stores do not normally carry oddball, freak, exotic items.

Thus if in Anywhere USA, one as a newcomer to the USA can dream about that Miele, Candy, LG or Hotpoint FL 24" frame washer "back home".

If I move to Europe; I might want a 249 to 600 buck 27" frame washer too when I am in Germany or the UK, but might wonder why Europe has few 27" models.

At super sales last fall, one had TL washers at only 249 dollars that had a smaller capacity than my FL Lg washer. These had few features and have an agitator that is more shreading than better TL washers.

Thus from a practical standpoint, buying a smaller machine locally means a lower quality machine.

There are no small 24" frame machines of mid quality for us to even look at and buy locally; there is a ZERO market for them for homes, a trickle niche market for yachts and work boats. .

The average Joe equates mail/internet ordering a small 24" frame washer as a massive waste. It costs more than a machine bought locally; one that can be returned easier if is DOA or a lemon. The purchase is absurd, one pays more for a machine that is smaller and the purchase is riskier too.

Post# 494498 , Reply# 64   2/6/2011 at 16:19 (4,682 days old) by 3beltwesty ()        
How the average washer is bought here

The average USA homeowner has their old washer then finally it starts to leak, get flakey, bearings are shot. OR it works perfectly and the wife wants a better machine too.

The repair estimates on an older machine means often one lives with old leaky beast and shops for a new washer.

If the old machine dies of a heart attack one often uses a laundromat and buys another machine ASAP.

One goes and looks at all the washers at local stores and gets confused.

One often waits to a super sale to cut the cost if one has the time.

One can look at 200 washers and never see Europe's beloved 24" frame machines, nor see Elvis or a washer made for UFOS either.

The steel box a modern FL washer or dryer here can/might sit on is a huge item to make a profit out of, they cost about 100 + bucks each.

There really no 24" frame machines where one buys a washer in the USA at a local store.

Thus non USA folks here might wish there were 400 buck Miele's here with 24" frames at our stores. There is not even a Candy 24" frame machine for 2000 dollars either.

Here the more one pays for a washer at a local store; the BIGGER it is in stated cubic feet.

It is an issue of marketing, a smaller machine at a local store costs less.

Post# 494508 , Reply# 65   2/6/2011 at 17:30 (4,682 days old) by 3beltwesty ()        
Massive undertaking to hawk a small machine in the USA

Here is the latest sales flier from Home Depot; a store that sells building supplies.

All are 27" frame machines










This flyer has more TL washers than FL washers. Last November it was the reverse.

***IF*** one arrived from Europe and wanted a 24" frame machine here locally; there are none.

If one wanted a small machine that only holds 2 to 2.5 cubic feet, no local store sells them; ie has them in stock.

If non USA folks really think a small 24" frame machine will sell here, they should just make them and see if we will actually buy this product. This is a massive undertaking

Post# 494542 , Reply# 66   2/6/2011 at 19:55 (4,681 days old) by Pingmeep ()        
It's a tad better north of the border...

Here in Canada as to showroom selection for a 24inch machines from big stores (Lowes, Home Depot, Sears)and specialty appliance stores are around too. While shopping for "compact" washers and dryers for the parents, sister and myself, I could choose between Miele, AEG, LG, Samsung, Bosch and few others and actually see machines in store. They aren't cheap though although sometimes you will see one in flyers.

Still the one factor that remains is Canadians value capacity. IEC cubic feet are close to king. Most buyers want enough capacity but don't want "monsters". "That machine must be made for Americans!" Was uttered several times while I was on showroom floors when people saw the Ultra Capacity machines.

Washing habits are also different here. There's a generational divide between people who pretreat to the point of hand washing prior to putting a load into a machine (mostly older people) and those who just trust that their so so detergent and machine will do okay and are ready to re-wash if necessary. Also some are laundry day people others are laundry through the week people.

As to whether they can clean a full load or even a typical half load the jury is still out.

I personally like some of the Frigidaire Affinity line for 27 inch frame and can vouch for the cleaning of a full load of towels/clothes. The LG 1355HW 2.7 IEC cu.ft. 10.1kg washer beside me did a just did a very good job cleaning the mud and dog encrusted crud from a queen size feather duvet (no cover) on a Bulky, Water Plus, "Warm" cycle. But I think that has as much to do with a slight pre-treat with cold water Tide Free liquid and then a half way to the 1 marker in the dispenser drawer.

Other machines do not do as well but I have a hunch it's a general apathy of owners towards having multiple detergents on hand and actually dosing properly. The average Canadian customer is just now finally getting the message about dark color detergent and delicate fabric care. Tide is the best selling brand detergent here followed by Purex which just recently dethroned Sunlight. Cold water washes are the current fad.

Post# 494546 , Reply# 67   2/6/2011 at 20:13 (4,681 days old) by rapunzel (Sydney)        

Europeans tend to do laundry less frequently and save up for full loads. Most households over there will not do laundry daily just for the sake of it. It is considered time and money wise to wash full loads and do laundry less frequently. In the colder European countries people do not change their entire daily wardrobe after one wear. If their shirts, slacks and dresses aren't visibly dirty and they do not smell, they get hung out for an airing and are worn perhaps once or twice more.

Here in Oz, the States/Canada, people throw everything they wear only once straight into the hamper. Laundry is done daily, regardless of how much there is to wash. Standard washer capacity in most Euro homes is still between 4.5 and 5 kilos, whereas here and in US folks like to go with 6 kilos and up. If a two to four kilo load gets thrown into an eight or ten kilo washer there is going to be a lot of empty space.

In Germany the measure for a full load in a horizontal axis machine, was/is always to leave just enough space for a flat hand to fit through on top of the dry load. The way dj-gabriele loads his washer is how it is generally done in Europe and it works fine.

Post# 494547 , Reply# 68   2/6/2011 at 20:27 (4,681 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        
No 24" Washers To Be Found?

launderess's profile picture
Depends upon where you are looking.

LG, Whirlpool, and Bosch to name a few still produce and sell such machines for the US market.

As for the American laundry market and "small" front loaders. While H-Axis machines either by choice or otherwise are making inroads to this country, European wash habits by and large still aren't.

Majority of Americans still insist on clinging to the ages old method of houskeeping; allowing the wash to pile up for a week (or longer), then finally attacking the situation. In some cases wash is not done until things become so desparate (that is all undergarments are soiled,including the emergency "big girl panties).

The other half of this custom involves doing all that washing quickly as possible, this in an effort to get the thing over with and move on. Large top loading washing machines with their fast cycles were perfectly suited to this task, however front loaders take longer. To stretch things out further by not being able to cram a normal "top loader" sized load into a H-Axis machine turned many US consumers off.

So now we have all those 27" and larger washers, however there is no such thing as a free lunch. Increased wash loads mean front loaders must have bearing and structural designs to cope. Some machines do this, others don't.


Post# 494554 , Reply# 69   2/6/2011 at 21:22 (4,681 days old) by luv2wash ()        

Hi all! Why is this so puzzling? Do we not have many habits/customs that are very different from other countries?

I always assumed that Europeans had smaller machines as they didn't have the same space we have here for larger ones. I always see them in places like the UK installed in kitchens under counters.

This whole size thing has been on my mind lately. I'm in the market for new machines and while I think a 4.0 cu ft should be large enough, I like the idea of say 4.8 or 5.0 to wash my king/queen size quilts and such.

I do agree that it seems crazy to own such a large capacity machine if it will only be used occasionally for large items and yet it seems just as crazy to me to have the option to buy one but opt for smaller and trips to the laundry mat (it’s not Italy – everything is not just around the corner). I’m in Canada – do you have any idea how spread out we are here??

The larger capacity machines are engineered to use only the water needed for a smaller load so I don't see how they are wasteful if not full to capacity.

BTW, Miele states right in their manual for the W4842:

Fill the drum only 3/4 of the way. Items need room to move otherwise they might get caught in the drum door seal.

Washing tips:
Energy and water consumption
– Do not overload the washer. The energy and water consumption will be most energy efficient.
– Use the "Express" program for small loads.
– When smaller amounts of laundry are washed using the "Normal" and
"Sanitize" programs, the automatic load recognition feature will automatically reduce the water, energy, and time for that load.

I have peered into the compact Mieles on several occasions and I cannot wrap my head around using it for laundry.

I know several people with significant disposable income and they now have TWO sets of machines. One set on the top floor where bedrooms are and another set in a larger basement laundry.

I could only go for a "compact" size if it was one of two sets I owned (not that that will ever happen).

Post# 494571 , Reply# 70   2/6/2011 at 22:25 (4,681 days old) by 3beltwesty ()        
America already booted the smaller FL washer 2 decades ago;

Most all will not buy a washer without looking at them first

America already booted the smaller FL washer 2 decades ago;

Most all Americans want to physically look at the washer before they buy one. Thus it really is moot that one can mail order a 24" LG, Whirlpool or Bosch. Only one in 100 to 1000 will do this. This is generally done for as luxury yacht or tug boat or a small condo set up.

The chance Joe Six pack homeowner will mail order a 24" frame machine are close to zero.

In Home Depots, Lowes, Sears etc in Alabama, Miss, Louisana, California, Tennessee, Georgia, Washington, Nevada, Indiana, Minn,Michigan,Iowa I have been at in the last 25 years, I have *never* seen a 24" frame washer.

Folks in Europe can mail order 27" machines too sight unseen. Then they can cry or demand a refund if the spec sheet has a bad dimension and the washer fits wrong.

The Westinghouse FL washers from 1941 to 1992 had smaller baskets than todays FL machines. The basket size from about 1962 to 1992 was the same size; about 22" in diameter and 12" deep. It is the same as the 1976 shot above where the Full comforter is about 1/4 out of the drum.

The average American does NOT want a small dinky washer like Westinghouse made for 50 years, it is unsaleable today. This is the 22"dia 12" deep size used for 30 years that is about a 2.5 to 2.6 actual cubic ft volume.

Whether a new machine is 24 or 27 " frame; either could be the 50 year old smaller size of 2.5 cubic ft.

25 years ago one could see the oddball Westinghouse FL washer at a few local stores; some of use bought them. Most DID NOT since they considered them too small

It would cost the same to build a small 2.5 cuft machine as a current machine, but would have to be priced higher since few buy them. Production volumes have to be decent to absorb the tooling costs.

Here I have used FL washers now for 50 years, The reason folks bought them eons ago was to save water and they tore up clothes less, plus the cycle times were shorter. The longest time on my 1976 FL washer is 42 minutes; 15 minutes of it is wash. Stuff that is not too dirty can be washed for 5 minutes and one can skip one rinse and have the stuff done in 22 minutes. The new machine will do this too with a short wash, but it does not wash as well at times.

FL washers have been around in the USA since right before WW2, it is really nothing new.

The Westinghouse FL washer was as already mentioned about the same basket size from 1962 to 1993; that 2.5 cubic foot 22" dia basket that is 12" deep. The 1976 Westy here was the washer with least water usage in a CR 1978 report; 30 gallons. They also mentioned its short total wash times of 42 min max; with 32 to 37 minutes being for less dirty loads.

*********America already booted the smaller FL washer 2 decades ago; it was NOT that the American FL washer (62 to 1992) had a long wash time or used a lot of water, it was too damn small in volume compared to the normal TL washer most were use to using.

Folks here do not want a dinky washer anymore. The old 1947 and 1976 westys here were used with a Family of 6.

Most Americans never really used a home FL washer before 1992. Thus to "compete" washer makers PURPOSELY made the 1990's new FL washers BIGGER, what folks wanted.

Post# 494607 , Reply# 71   2/7/2011 at 03:56 (4,681 days old) by nrones ()        

This is a regular load in my 7kg 40cm deep Candy :D
Video is in a link ;)


Post# 494621 , Reply# 72   2/7/2011 at 06:49 (4,681 days old) by ronhic (Canberra, Australia)        

ronhic's profile picture

Great to see a fully loaded machine doing a good job....and quiet too!

Post# 494693 , Reply# 73   2/7/2011 at 14:13 (4,681 days old) by 3beltwesty ()        
The catch 22

Here are some 24" machines one can special/mail order here in the USA.

A large city like LA,NY,Chicago etc might have one in stock to look at.

Here in a smaller area where I live there are still over 8 places that carry washers and non in the over 100 I looked at was a smaller 24" frame.

Bosch WAS20160UC 24" washer

Whirlpool WFC7500VW White 24" Washer

WCVH4800KWW GE 24" Front Load Washer

LG WM1355HR 2.7 cu. ft. Capacity Compact Front Load Washer

LG WM1355HW 2.7 cu. ft. Capacity Compact Front Load Washer

LG WM3431HW 24", 2.44 Cu. Ft. Washer/Dryer Combo

Thin Twin 24" Washer - Gas Dryer - LTG5243DQ

In the 2 year old link bellow there is dialog about folks worrying about a 24" machine. What is interesting is the question of washing a Queen sized comforter is raised; one larger than the FULL size one that cannot go into the old 1976 2.6 cuft westy without forcing.

The catch 22 is that many of us who many order stuff without seeing the items only have reviews by others to gather +/- feedback. When a model has few reviews the risk is higher.

Is it common for folks in non USA places to buy their washers without looking at one; or by internet/mailorder?


Post# 494696 , Reply# 74   2/7/2011 at 14:37 (4,681 days old) by Haxisfan (Europe - UK / Italy)        
@ 3beltwesty

haxisfan's profile picture
Of course it is common to buy a washer, dishwasher, dryer, online... you name it... well, it is for me here in the UK and I know of others who have done the same; however I presume we'd have seen the item live or have gathered enough info on it before venturing into purchasing it. I even ordered a few ig appliances online from the UK through an Italian online store (although it'd even be possible to buy from a UK store but it'd incur higher delivery charges for obvious reasons) and delivered to Italy without me being there (some1 else got them on my behalf). Nonetheless my regret was that of not having been able to use them long enough to take advandage of the warranty should a fault occur... it was actually the case in one instance where a fault developped way after the expiration of the warranty period albeit the limited usage rate of the appliance.

Bye :)

Post# 494698 , Reply# 75   2/7/2011 at 14:47 (4,681 days old) by 3beltwesty ()        
RE "however I presume we'd have seen the item live&#


Would you buy a washer "online" that you:

Have never seen before (in person at a store or friend's house) ;

That has few ratings,

one that is not in any store one can vist in a day's travel?

Here in the usa, not being able to look at a device puts a damper on the purchase for the average washer buyer.

Post# 494701 , Reply# 76   2/7/2011 at 15:00 (4,681 days old) by Haxisfan (Europe - UK / Italy)        
Whoops... I might have misread your previous comments :P

haxisfan's profile picture
Sorry 3beltwesty... I wasn't aware of these facts you've just highlighted. I wouldn't conclude a purchase under those circustances... unless there was a piddly amount of money involved... then I'd gamble it... like when I got my infrared massager which was delivered to me within a week.

Post# 494726 , Reply# 77   2/7/2011 at 17:15 (4,681 days old) by dj-gabriele ()        
Internet purchases:

I bought ALL the appliances for the new kitchen on-line (oven, hobs, dishwasher, hood, sink and faucet too!) as between buying them in the official SMEG shop and the least expensive internet retailers, there were just a little less than 600 euros of savings! In other words we got the dishwasher for free if we were top pay the "real life shop" prices! And think that they were already discounted by 15% as we were getting a full kitchen set!
Same was for the new washing machine! 320 euros delivered vs. 349€ plus 15€ delivery in the "real life shop"!

The washing machine came damaged by the courier, calling Candy (oh shit, a Candy washing machine! Hahahhaha!) in two days resolved the issue, they came with a new soap drawer and fascia et voilŕ! The machine is still running perfect!

Now, I must point out that I've never seen that washing machine before it was delivered nor my parents did!
Same goes for the kitchen appliances, I saw them on the official SMEG shop in Reggio Emilia but they didn't see them at all in real life, only on the online catatalogue and later on the printed one, were satisfied of the technical data and aesthetics and then gave me the go to buy them (online of course!)

After all if you don't like what you bought you have 10 days to send it back at no expense at all! The seller even has to refund you of your shipping charges!

Post# 494773 , Reply# 78   2/7/2011 at 20:09 (4,680 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        
Purchasing Appliances Online

launderess's profile picture
Sight unseen.

Gosh 3BeltWesty, better not spread that around. I mean it must be aliens or something buying all those washing machines and other appliances from eBay, CL, ABT appliances, Sears online, and god only knows how many scores of other places "online" where one can shop.

There are fewer and fewer "brick" store locations every year selling appliances. Wonder why that is and where consumers are going with their money? If the average consumer is so keen on shopping locally where are the sales?

Furthermore one of the number one complaints from "brick" stores is that consumers (average or otherwise), come into their premises, spend endless hours looking at appliances/engaging sales persons, then go elsewhere (mainly to Internet vendors), to make their purchases.

Those of us of a certain age may like to read the lables/kick the tires in person before we buy, but youngsters coming up seem to have no such quibbles. Indeed one of the hottest trends this past holiday shopping season was the use of "apps" allowing one to scan in a barcode (sku#, or other information), and instantly compare prices for an item from both brick and Internet sites. Use of these apps will only grow and spells nothing but bad news for physical location stores. It is simply not possible to meet the prices someone who does not have the same costs, nor often must charge the same taxes.

For someone making several appliance purchases, the savings of shopping online can be substantial. This forces whomever is doing the supplying to crunch numbers and find ways to compete. They will either have to thrown in extras to make up the difference, or take a hit with a small loss hoping to make it up in "good will".

Post# 494869 , Reply# 79   2/8/2011 at 09:39 (4,680 days old) by PassatDoc (Orange County, California)        

I have a 3.5 cu ft (about 11 kgs) Frigidaire 2140. I bought a laundry center from Lowes, which features sorting bags, a rod for hanging shirts and trousers on hangers, and a shelf on top.

I use Bag #1 for sturdy cottons (t-shirts, jeans, etc.), #2 for towels, #3 for permanent press. Normally I wash #1 on warm, #2 on hot, otherwise they get the same wash treatment. Dry #1 on warm, #2 on Hot. And sometimes I'll combine #1 and #2 into a single load on warm wash/warm dry. #3 is washed on warm but with perm press cycle, dried warm on perm press.

That said, when one of the bags is full to the brim, it will fill the drum top to bottom, without overfilling. So I use the bags as a crude measuring system. If/when the 2140 dies and is replaced by a larger model (say, Electrolux or one of the new Frigidaires), I'd need to revise my system, since a full bag would no longer fill the drum!!

PS the bags are removable and washable.


Post# 494904 , Reply# 80   2/8/2011 at 12:58 (4,680 days old) by Iheartmaytag (Wichita, Kansas)        
I sort/measure

iheartmaytag's profile picture
I have those big plastic storage tubs that are 4.0 cu. ft. I just toss the clothes, towels, jeans etc as I am sorting. The Maytag (Duet clone) holds excatally the amount of one of these tubs and I have not experienced any problems with washing/rinsing or spinning.

I wash full loads of everything except delicates which half a load is proper for anyway. The fill is adaptive so it uses more water for larger loads, less for smaller loads.

I have no guilt in using this method, so if this is "American right to waste" so be it. What I have found with my Uber-large European (GERMAN MADE) machine is I used to wash a load of towels every night in my top loader. Now I wash about two loads of towels a week. This would appear to a wasteful American like myself that the larger machine is saving me time, energy, detergent, water, and money.

Post# 494941 , Reply# 81   2/8/2011 at 14:28 (4,680 days old) by ronhic (Canberra, Australia)        
Thanks folks....

ronhic's profile picture

...that's what I wanted to know all along.....that there are/were US made or designed front load machines that can be loaded in the same manner as a European one and get similar results.....

Post# 494982 , Reply# 82   2/8/2011 at 17:30 (4,680 days old) by 3beltwesty ()        
Is CLEAN and noun or verb? :)


I have those big plastic storage tubs that are 4.0 cu. ft. I just toss the clothes, towels, jeans etc as I am sorting. "

I bought a mess of these large tub baskets when my dad was still alive when he was in his late 80's and had a house lady lady once a week to help out with household cleaning.

***I purposely marked the 4 tubs either Clean or Dirty and by white and dark/colored.

The ladies helpers would get the clothes all screwed up since they somehow assumed CLEAN meant: "to be cleaned."

****Thus to be even clearer I had to add a Happy face logo on the clean tubs and sad face frown on the dirty tubs!

It still was often a total disaster,

my dad and I would arrive home late and there would be a note to still dry the stuff; ie move them to the dryer.

They would take the sad faced dirty dark and sad faced dirty white and place to or 3 tubs worth of stuff in the 1976 westy FL.

They actually forced it in and forced the door shut. I would have to do 3 rewashings to rewash the mess; since the washer was overloaded and nothing really got washed well at all. ie the whole mess turned into a stinky mess.

The washer was so full that there was no extra space. Take what a perosn calls full then add 2 more loads. This is the opposite extreme, one sticks 3 to 4 washer loads of stuff in a machine and one has to rewash it all at midnight!

One time a note said the washer was freaking out, the washer has so crammed with items (three big tubs full) that the machine could not get into spin mode and the circuit breaker had tripped and the room smelled like burned belts.

The items in a washer are suppose to move somewhat, not like if one glued the items all together.

Post# 495108 , Reply# 83   2/9/2011 at 02:29 (4,679 days old) by ronhic (Canberra, Australia)        
One time a note said the washer was freaking out, the washer

ronhic's profile picture

...ever considered actually SHOWING the individuals how to use the machine or leaving some step by step instructions? I'd have thought that would have reduced, if not actually solved, the problems....

Post# 495147 , Reply# 84   2/9/2011 at 07:28 (4,679 days old) by Iheartmaytag (Wichita, Kansas)        
Is CLEAN and noun or verb? :)

iheartmaytag's profile picture
Well 3belt, in the scenario you described, "Clean" must have been optional.

Post# 495148 , Reply# 85   2/9/2011 at 07:28 (4,679 days old) by mrb627 (Buford, GA)        

mrb627's profile picture
I would like to see factual information that washing an 8 pound load of clothes is more wasteful in a big machine than a smaller one.


Post# 495162 , Reply# 86   2/9/2011 at 08:54 (4,679 days old) by 3beltwesty ()        
total disaster; un-teachable

RE :

"...ever considered actually SHOWING the individuals how to use the machine or leaving some step by step instructions? I'd have thought that would have reduced, if not actually solved, the problems...."

We had instructions in large block text in english and explained to my dad's head lady who managed her work crew.

You are assuming the folks who do this type of work can read or follow directions after they screwed up over and over again, of the same folks arrive the next week.

Basically that is why I fired them after my dad passed away and changed the locks, ie no learning, placing 4 loads of wash in the washer, hiding items.

The head lady's crew she used varied each time too. I was not keen on these folks but my dad was paying for it. He would have to call the lady up to ask where they put stuff; they would rake off stuff on counters and place it in a box; then stick the box in another part of the house . If I wanted to be kind I would say her workers had mental defects, or were missing links. In reality they caused me more work. They were so stupid that they placed clean bath towels in under the bathroom sink were it is damp, where one never thought to look.

I had one of those knife/fork/spoon plastic kitchen drawer deals on my dads bathroom's counter, so his razor, cream, toothpaste and brush was "off limits" from being placed in the kitchen or garage.

This crew was so bad I placed locks on the bedroom I slept in and several other rooms so stuff was not messed with. I had a declining dad in his late 80's I helped take care of, and these helpers often caused be more work. One could wash the bed sheets and place a giant note to not wash them and this crew was hell bent on cramming those sheets in washer.

These odd folks placed 18" & 24" fluorescent bulbs in dishwasher, toothbrushes and small garden spades in the dishwasher, edison bulbs in the dishwasher. They took battery hydrometers that were in the garage workbench and placed them in the dishwasher, like they are turkey basters?


Post# 495164 , Reply# 87   2/9/2011 at 09:17 (4,679 days old) by 3beltwesty ()        
waste versus load level


I would like to see factual information that washing an 8 pound load of clothes is more wasteful in a big machine than a smaller one."


Maybe that would be a start of a new thread's topic?

The simple old 1976 FL westy and the westy we had before it were marketed as water saving machines.

The actual KWhour's I measured on the westy was 0.22 Kwhour with one of my normal loads. If juice costs 15 cents then one wash load costs 3.3 cents.

Here the water is absurdly super soft. A large jug of liquid All that is for 84 loads usually lasts at least a year, thus the soaps cost in mys scheme of things is nil. Walmart had some at the fire sale table; thus a 13 buck jug cost me only 5 last week.

With my old machine, one has a direct control of the water level via a knob. I have a different water pressure switch wired in, the water can be set from just touching the drum to the glass window 1/2 covered.

With soft water here I about never use hot water. Sometimes warm is used.

The new LG is better in extraction of water than the old westy; since its spin speed is higher. One has less water to remove.

To really figure costs one has to also consider if a dryer is used; or a close line. what type of dryer electric or gas too.

Post# 495172 , Reply# 88   2/9/2011 at 09:29 (4,679 days old) by 3beltwesty ()        

Here I am going to wire in one of my many watthour meters in series with my 240 vol dryer so I can see how much KWhr is used. With a newer FL washer the stuff extracts better, thus the dryer is used less in actual time.

The baffoonery with the slick sales chaps is they want you to buy a matched washer and dryer. About every person told me that my old 1976 westy dryer would be too small for my new LG FL washer. The real fact is that the old dryer could really handle TWO LG FL washers, since the extract is better and the new washers take way longer than the old 1976 washer. With the old 1976 machine, if one was to wash a mountain of bluejeans, each full load is done in 42 minutes and the dryer is filled and run and wash load #2 started. With the new LG the cycles I use for the same dirty bluejeans are typically about 75 minutes. If the timer says 1Hr 13minutes when one starts, it is a hokey gray estimate. It might be really done in 1hr 5 minutes to 1 hr in 30 minutes due fart around factor of the softwares sensing

Post# 495188 , Reply# 89   2/9/2011 at 10:36 (4,679 days old) by PassatDoc (Orange County, California)        

I agree with your math.

Whereabouts on the coast are you located? I did a work of Katrina relief work in "the Bay" (aka Bay St. Louis) in 2008, after having done a week of similar work in NOLA in 2007. We enjoyed our stay in the Bay much better, people were really grateful for our presence and thanked us left and right for coming. On the 2008 trip, we flew into Gulfport so as to reduce driving time (vs from NOLA). I painted the inside of the Waveland animal shelter pretty much by myself.

Post# 495519 , Reply# 90   2/10/2011 at 15:38 (4,678 days old) by jerrod6 (Southeastern Pennsylvania)        

6K machine.  Here is a load of cotton reds and greens I did today.  After loading it was full to the top with no more room to put anything in.  The contents compact after getting wet.

This post was last edited 02/10/2011 at 21:05
Post# 495539 , Reply# 91   2/10/2011 at 16:56 (4,678 days old) by Haxisfan (Europe - UK / Italy)        

haxisfan's profile picture
I find this thread really interesting but it's far too long to read it all in one go... I gathered you guys have never seen a real clothes overload :-D

Below a link to my extreme overload I did some time ago... I can already hear your critism but before you say anything I swear and cross my heart that this load was impeccably clean after that 3 hour long cycle. It was so huge that I had to split it into two to fit into my 6kg tumble dryer. In the video you'll see the best parts, where everything looked almost normal, but sometimes small items would push towards the rubber boot or thrust against the porthole door almost as if they wanted to pop it open. The rinse cycle looked waterless although I know water was there by the amount of time the solenoid valve was left open: but at the end of the day... or should I say... at the end of the cycle all the garments in the load were well rinsed.

My loads are seldomly this big.


Post# 495645 , Reply# 92   2/11/2011 at 08:25 (4,677 days old) by 3beltwesty ()        


Re Nice video.

To state that this was an extreme overload can be defined in hard cold Engineering terms two ways:

(1)POOR WASHING: One could state that a machine is overloaded and thus the clothes were not washed as well as a lessor load. ie the machine is so full that even with water the articles never move with respect to another and or the clean and rinse is poor. ie one has a diaper with poop still in it and it stays in one place, and it makes the entire other articles nearby a toxic mess. Your video shows that the articles mixed and moved around, there was "free airspace when the stuff was being washed " and tumbling and random mixing occurred. A true overload from a bad wash standpoint means the wash was poor and one has to rewash everything.

(2)LIFE OF MACHINE IS RUINED: Once could state that an overload is so high that one effects the normal life of the ball bearings and motor. Ie the motor windings are cooking, the ball bearings have such a high load that one is degrading a normal washers life of 1000 to 5000 washes. Most bearings in washers die due to corrosion, the water seal fails and the bearing corrodes dud to exposure of water and soaps.

Since your stuff came out what you state as acceptable as clean, only item (2) is a possible "overload". The ladies my dad once had to help cleaning would consider you machine underloaded and add gobs of more items. Thus when I arrived home the machine had stuff fermenting and the wash load had to be rewashed in separate loads.

PassatDoc; I am in Harrison County, the middle of the three lower tier coastal counties. The biggest cities are Gulfport, Biloxi, D'Iberville, Long Beach, Pass Christian. The western county is Hancock with Bay St Louis, Waveland, Stennis Space Center, Kiln etc. The population has dropped in most cities due to Katrina's mess and sky high insurance costs. Thanks for helping out with rebuilding. It is still going on for many folks. It is really hard for an outsider to understand sometimes.

Post# 495676 , Reply# 93   2/11/2011 at 10:53 (4,677 days old) by Haxisfan (Europe - UK / Italy)        

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3beltswesty... I agree with most of the points you made as for poor washing (epecially in relation to the 'poop' factor) and the threat to the life of the machine, etc, although as I stressed earlier, this isn't a regular occurrence. The items were randomly mixing and shifting position and... as a matter of fact, at different points during the entire cycle, the load being washed didn't even look as if it was the same one. Besides, none of the items in the load were particulary dirty... moral: the same results could have been obtained with a quick wash on half load for lightly soiled clothes.

I was considering your concept of overloading a washing machine which would have surely entailed (or even suggested) topping up the machine with some more clothes once the water and gravity had done their trick (I know some1 who used to do that too)... however this was as overloaded as overloaded can be in respect to dry clothes being thrusted forcibly inside the drum to the point of surpassing the max capacity of the appliance considered. Even the tumble dryer resulted overloaded with the second lot of clothes from the same load (as you can see towards the end of the clip) and as a result they matured some wrinkles that only time and effort managed to annihilate.

Perhaps another aspect you failed/forgot to mention is the potential damage that could incur to clothes (as they might not be pulled completely into the drum during the high sequence spin cycle for lack of space). In fact, in one of the other occasions in which I overloaded the washer in a similar fashion as above, I had one of my favorite garments develop a nasty scuff mark and a tear: that certainly taught me a lesson. Bye now.

Post# 498515 , Reply# 94   2/22/2011 at 11:12 (4,666 days old) by PassatDoc (Orange County, California)        

Thanks for the kind words. We stayed in quonset huts placed on concrete slabs on the ruins of Christ Episcopal Church in Bay St. Louis. Lutheran-Episcopal Services in Mississippi ran three camps on the coast: ours, a second one at a destroyed church site in Long Beach, and a third in Ocean Springs (at a Lutheran church which was not washed away). Our group wanted to return but the camps were closed last fall. Not sure if it was lack of money, lack of jobs to do, or lack of volunteers.

As we came from California, we had to fly to Gulfport and rent minivans from there. We had to bring our own bedding (sleeping bag, sheets, pillow, towels, etc.) which meant most folks packed two duffels, one with bedding and one for clothes. The camps had hot showers but no laundry facilities, so we had to bring a week's worth of heavy work clothes too. Some groups who came to the camp were within driving distance, but many groups flew in. When the airlines began charging for checked baggage, I knew that was going to hurt the camps in MS because it would cost $50 each way to check two bags, hence raising the cost of the trip by $100, on top of airfare, for each participant. We actually discussed the possibility of raising funds to buy them laundry machines so that people could come with just one bag (to save charges---at first, they only charged for the second bag) and wash clothes at camp as they went along.


Post# 498550 , Reply# 95   2/22/2011 at 13:53 (4,666 days old) by cfz2882 (Belle Fourche,SD)        

my work clothes get really dirty,so i am mostly interested in the best wash
performance and therefore usually run my f/l 24"splendide or maytag neptune
with the drums about 1/2 full or slightly above for best tumbling action.
BTW the 24"splendide combomatic-bought brand new,damaged in a shipping
accident and fixed up,is usually found in campers,boats,and RVs in the US.

Post# 1162480 , Reply# 96   10/25/2022 at 14:12 (403 days old) by GELaundry4ever (Nacogdoches, TX, USA)        
My washing habits

I always sort according to color lights, whites, and darks. When I go to the laundromat, they all go into separate washers and dryers. I want things done the proper way, not lazily stuffed in. That is my biggest pet peeves when it comes to laundry.

Post# 1162484 , Reply# 97   10/25/2022 at 15:24 (403 days old) by bewitched (Italy)        

My Aeg Lavamat Clara is usually fully stuffed but it manages to get very good results. This is a load of whites and the cycle is the longer available with prewash at 80 degrees celsius. The detergent used is the Miele ultrawhite powder.

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Post# 1162518 , Reply# 98   10/25/2022 at 22:34 (402 days old) by ryner1988 (Indianapolis)        
Apparently this thread has been revived, so...

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I'll chime in.

I own a standard TL. For me, a full load is one that is loaded loosely to the top row of holes in the washer tub, but not packed in. I do load to capacity, but if I feel like I'll struggle to get any more in, that means it's time to stop.

This is also why I stopped the practice of starting the machine to fill first before adding clothes. This is a life-long habit that was really hard to break, but I found it was a bit deceptive in regards to how much could actually fit because the clothes get wet and packed down. A loose pile of dry clothes is a much more accurate representation of how much the washer can handle. I now put detergent in first, then add clothes, and start washer last.

Post# 1162541 , Reply# 99   10/26/2022 at 06:37 (402 days old) by chachp (North Little Rock, AR)        

chachp's profile picture


My approach is more like that in Reply #79.  I have hanging hampers on the wall in my laundry room.  When one is full, I do a load.  One of these full fills my washer to about ¾ full in my Miele W1 washer.


Each load gets about 20ML of detergent.  Either Miele Ultraphase or liquid products from a place I really like.  That’s a good amount of detergent for our soft water.


This seems to be a good mix for the two of us that don’t generate a huge amount of laundry and the fact that with mechanically softened water I have to be careful how much detergent I use.

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Post# 1162600 , Reply# 100   10/26/2022 at 17:40 (402 days old) by mark_wpduet (Lexington KY)        

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Wow I love that spacious pretty laundry room... what's in those bottles on the shelf?

Post# 1162665 , Reply# 101   10/27/2022 at 02:35 (401 days old) by chachp (North Little Rock, AR)        
Thank you Mark.

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Those are laundry products.  I use different formulations for each type of clothing.  Yeah I'm a little psycho when it comes to laundry (and the kitchen :) ).  The rest of the house can crumble around me.  LOL. 

Post# 1162668 , Reply# 102   10/27/2022 at 04:10 (401 days old) by qsd-dan (West)        

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I'm guessing the "Casual" bin is warm wash?

I wash towels and whites together but they're done at 160F with oxy bleach and a 3 hour soak period so there's no worry about cross contamination.

Post# 1162671 , Reply# 103   10/27/2022 at 05:56 (401 days old) by chachp (North Little Rock, AR)        
Casual is basically All Other:

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When I was making the labels I didn't know what to make the fourth one.  For whatever reason "All Other" didn't come to mind so I took it from my Pinterest inspiration room which labeled the fourth as Casual.  For us that is anything that doesn't go in the other three or something that needs special handling like pre treating, hang dry, those kinds of things.  Putting them in that bin reminds me I need to do something else with those things.


  • I do white T-Shirts and Underwear with a one hour soak and the Extra White cycle which is 140. I add an extra rinse.
  • Colors I do the Baby Clothes cycle which is 140 and I add an extra rinse.  Someone here turned me on to the Baby Clothes cycle and it is amazing.  Everything comes out so soft with no Fabric Softener.  Not sure what it does but there is a real difference.  If they are really dirty I will set the soil level to Heavy and add a soak for an hour or so.
  • Towels - Colored towels I do on the towels cycle with an extra rinse.  Can't remember what temp that is.  It's running right now so I can't check.
  • Wash cloths, dish towels, rags, etc. all get done on the Sanitary cycle which is think is 167 on this machine.  And of course, an extra rinse.  I'm hoping the once a week Sanitary keeps the innards nice and clean.  The washer has never prompted me to run a cleaning cycle but I do run one every few months anyway.  



Post# 1162692 , Reply# 104   10/27/2022 at 14:25 (401 days old) by qsd-dan (West)        

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You wash colors at 140F?

Post# 1162695 , Reply# 105   10/27/2022 at 15:34 (401 days old) by chachp (North Little Rock, AR)        

chachp's profile picture


Yes.  I do very few things in Cool water. 

Post# 1163001 , Reply# 106   11/1/2022 at 16:28 (396 days old) by Jerrod_Six (Eastern Pennsylvania, USA)        

I also use the baby clothes cycle for many of my loads but usually run it at 120F, although I have done a few in load with that cycle at 140F, which worked very well. I am curious about your dosing of Ultraphase at 20ml with soft water. Is that 20ml a combination of ultraphase 1 and ultraphase 2 or is that just the dose for ultraphase 1?

Post# 1163030 , Reply# 107   11/1/2022 at 23:35 (395 days old) by GELaundry4ever (Nacogdoches, TX, USA)        
my wash habits

I wash everything on the normal cottons cycle with the temperatures being the only variable depending on what I'm washing. Hot for whites, warm for lights, and cold for darks. All of my clothes, if not most of them, are sturdy cottons.

Post# 1163044 , Reply# 108   11/2/2022 at 06:33 (395 days old) by chachp (North Little Rock, AR)        

chachp's profile picture


I just looked at the settings and it looks like I have them both set at 15ML.  I guess the machine determines which one gets dispensed and when.  I get really good results with these settings.  


As I read some of these posts it sounds like some are surprised that I wash my colors at 140F.  I'm curious to know why.  They come out really well and I don't notice any fading.  I've been doing them that way because the first time I used the Baby Clothes cycle it was set at 140F and I can still remember how soft the clothes felt when they came out with no fabric softener.  I guess there is no reason why I couldn't set it at 120F I just never have.

Post# 1163070 , Reply# 109   11/2/2022 at 16:11 (395 days old) by Jerrod_Six (Eastern Pennsylvania, USA)        

If you have been using 140F and that works for you I would go for it. I used 120F for most loads on my previous Miele machine so continue to use that on the W1. I do use lower temps for gym clothes, poly items, and good dark clothes but only as low as 85F. The only temp you get to use with Extra white is 140F but I have also used it with colors just by selecting "color" under Twin Dos. The machine doesn't care, it uses the temperature but dispenses as if it is for colors.

Post# 1163212 , Reply# 110   11/5/2022 at 09:38 (392 days old) by DADoES (TX, U.S. of A.)        

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AquaSmart sheets load yesterday ... queen fitted, queen flat, seven pillow cases, six shirts, and a microfiber throw.  3 tbsp STPP, 3 tbsp borax, 2 oz. Persil ProClean 2in1.

Post# 1164426 , Reply# 111   11/20/2022 at 18:35 (377 days old) by JohnBee (USA, NY)        
My Miele W3035

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This is the full load per Miele tech in Europe.
“Load the drum and make sure you have enough space for a palm of your hand once you push the clothes down”

This is what 4 different Miele techs told my grandma , Mom, sister and me when we all got our washers.

Here’s a video of my Miele with a quite lard load of towels and sheets


  Photos...       <              >      Photo 1 of 3         View Full Size
Post# 1164429 , Reply# 112   11/20/2022 at 18:51 (377 days old) by DADoES (TX, U.S. of A.)        

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Darks/casuals last week:  8 cargo shorts, 1 bath towel, 2 hand towels, 1 pr socks, 10 underwear/briefs, 3 boxers, 3 shirts.

Post# 1164442 , Reply# 113   11/20/2022 at 20:53 (376 days old) by ryner1988 (Indianapolis)        
Regular load of clothes this morning

ryner1988's profile picture
This is in a 3.2 CU FT Whirlpool direct drive washer set on the highest water level.

Two pairs of leggings (the thicker type that are more like pants, not the sheer panty hose type)

Two pairs of fuzzy fleecy pajama pants

One night gown

Two tank tops

Two pairs of track/athletic pants

One pair of men's blue jeans

Eight regular shirts

Six pairs of socks

Eight pairs of underwear

One zip-up hooded sweatshirt

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