Thread Number: 33697
Still Leaking KDS-16. Help
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Post# 506477   3/24/2011 at 13:53 (4,753 days old) by marksman ()        

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Portable version on KDS-16. I installed the new seal kit 4160551.
I just installed it. When I started the machine. I got a hum, a bad smell and a leak. I stopped it within seconds. I'm not sure I have the seal all the way down. How do I know? There is a cover on the impeller. I think when I screw the cover down tight, the impeller might be hitting. Without the cover the shaft spins easy, with the cover on I hear friction noise.
Now what? And the leak?
Help





Post# 506544 , Reply# 1   3/24/2011 at 18:18 (4,753 days old) by marksman ()        

Re-assembled. I may have had a washer in the wrong place. I have a little mist spray going around the top of the motor when the washer is running.
Does the seal need a break in run?


Post# 506594 , Reply# 2   3/24/2011 at 20:32 (4,753 days old) by neptunebob (Pittsburgh, PA)        

neptunebob's profile picture
Markman, don't run it anymore. It is possible you have the seal in backwards? As I remember there was a metal washer that goes into the rubber impeller. The other part of the seal that goes into the housing at the bottom, the tubular part goes on top and rubs against the metal. As for the scraping, take one of the shim washers from the bottom of the upper impeller and put it on top. That should create enough space to not rub on top. Good luck!

Post# 506597 , Reply# 3   3/24/2011 at 21:01 (4,753 days old) by marksman ()        

I think the seal is in right. The two ceramic seals are running against each other. There was a flat washer I thought went on the bottom of the impeller. That was wrong and prevented the seals from making full contact. I put that flat washer on top of the wash pump impeller which then solved the rubbing of the drain impeller on the housing that bolts on top of that.
I test ran it with cold water. Not sure it that effects the sealing. There is a super fine mist.

I also have a hose dripping a bit. I plan on turning on it side and fixing the hose. I'm thinking of attaching a rag on the side with the electrical to prevent it from getting wet and running it again with hot water. I'm hoping things "seat in".

Does anyone have a good diagram of the assembly?

I think I went, lower seal, drain impeller, o-ring, impeller cover, wash pump impeller, flat washer, cap washer, spring washer, screw. I used dish soap as a lube. Hopefully I have it back together right.
Thanks
Rick


Post# 506600 , Reply# 4   3/24/2011 at 21:18 (4,753 days old) by rp2813 (Sannazay)        

rp2813's profile picture

It's usually recommended to dump hot water into the tub of a machine that hasn't operated for a long period, and let it sit to soften up the seal.  It might not be a bad idea to try that and see if it helps things to seat properly.


Post# 506611 , Reply# 5   3/24/2011 at 22:47 (4,753 days old) by stevet (West Melbourne, FL)        
What a mess! But, hey! You at least tried!

You are going to have to take it all apart again and do it by the book.
You cannot mistake the seal halves as the lower seal with the black carbon ring in it goes in first and then you have to use the correct diameter shim to shim the drain impeller which has a white ceramic or silver metal seal which presses into the rubber of the drain impeller. Make sure if you have the seal with the small "dot" indentations, that you place them facing up into the impeller housing. If you do it wrong, it can leak.

INSPECT BOTH HALVES OF THE SEAL NOW AND MAKE SURE YOU DID NOT CRACK EITHER ONE OF THEM WHICH IS POSSIBLE IN YOUR SCENARIO,

As I have told people on here many times, when you take the pump apart, take special care and notice as to what parts come out in what sequence. This is especially true of the shims.
The rule of thumb is to replace the shims in the same place they came out of and in the same quantity. That way you will have them correct and the drain impeller will seat properly and seal the water from "fine mist" spraying when the motor runs and the wash impeller will clear the pump housing.
Clearance of the wash impeller to the top housing is important so you develop the correct amount of pump discharge pressure, though a few thousandths of an inch is not that big a deal unless you shim it too high which will make it hit the bottom of the top housing or what looks like you did, put it all together and pushed the wash pump impeller all the way down and jammed it on the lower housing.

Roughly, the sequence is: stationary seal in lower housing attached to the motor with at least one shim on the motor shaft to prevent the drain impeller from bottoming out on the housing holding the stationary seal, the small plastic cover, the bottom of the wash pump, secure with the 4 screws, O-ring on the motor shaft, shim(s)above the o-ring, then the wash pump impeller. You have to then install the key washer which must go into the cutout on the impeller and also then align with the motor shaft which is 90 degrees off from the impeller. Then the cap washer with the indent facing down over the shaft, 2 spring washers, one inside the other with the "points" facing up and then tighten the Phillips head screw tightly.

Turn the impeller by hand and check to see if it moves freely.
The impeller should barely if anything show above the top of the housing in which it sits.
Did your WP kit come with a touch/clear gage so you can measure the height of the impeller?
If it all turns okay and the clearance is okay, you can install and tighten the screws of the wash arm support. Once again, try to turn the impeller with your finger to make sure it is all turning freely. If you do it right, it should not leak not jam the motor and burn it out!
I am attaching a scan of the procedure for shimming this machine and it covers only the 15,16, and 17 series machines. The 18, 19,20 is basically the same but the shimming is different and the 21,122 are different yet again and the 23 goes by the whirlpool instructions for their Power Module pump.
You will need to take it all apart and start over with all the shims they gave you plus your original ones. You should be able to make it work right.

If you never did this before, you have a snowball's chance in hell if you just decided to wing it. But at least you tried. This is what we are here for. There is always someone on here that knows just what to do for any given machine so don't be afraid to try and also to ask for help both before and after. I know I try to do that when I am tackling a brand other than what I am familiar with.
Let us know how you make out.


Post# 506612 , Reply# 6   3/24/2011 at 22:48 (4,753 days old) by stevet (West Melbourne, FL)        
BETTER PIC?

Let's try it again

Post# 506662 , Reply# 7   3/25/2011 at 07:42 (4,752 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md)        
LEAKING SEAL ON KD-16 KA DW

combo52's profile picture

Yes do stop running the machine a main seal leak will not go away on its own when you just installed a new seal, something is still wrong or went wrong.

 

I have run into a lot of 15-17 KAs where the fan on the top of the motor [ which is pot-metal ] is corroded away on the top sholder which makes it hard to do a proper and successful seal replacement, you may want to inspect this item.  Stevet have you found this to ever cause the main seal to leak?

 


Post# 506736 , Reply# 8   3/25/2011 at 12:19 (4,752 days old) by marksman ()        

Ok I'll try again.
combo52***"I have run into a lot of 15-17 KAs where the fan on the top of the motor [ which is pot-metal ] is corroded away on the top sholder which makes it hard to do a proper and successful seal replacement, you may want to inspect this item. Stevet have you found this to ever cause the main seal to leak?"
DURING THE LAST INSTALL I INSTALLED THE BOTTOM SEAL AND ADDED WATER UP TO THE TOP OF THE SEAL. I LET IT SET A FEW HOURS. NO LEAK SO I THINK THAT PART IS OK.

stevet***THE eBAY KIT WAS OPEN NO SHIMS, NO GAGE. IT TOOK ALMOST A MONTH, SO I'M SURE I HAVE THINGS OUT OF ORDER. :(

"Roughly, the sequence is: stationary seal in lower housing attached to the motor with at least one shim on the motor shaft to prevent the drain impeller from bottoming out on the housing holding the stationary seal" OK. THIS WAS WRONG.
O-ring on the motor shaft, shim(s)above the o-ring" OK. THIS WAS WRONG.
EVERYTHNG ELSE SEEMED RIGHT. I HAD TWO SHIMS UNDER THE CAP WASHER.
QUESTIONS.
I HAVE TWO "SHIMS" 1 THINNER WITH A BIGGER OUTSIDE DIAMETER.
THE SECOND "SHIM" IS THICKER WITH A SMALLER OD.(ACTUALLY LOOKS A LITTLE BENT, SHOULD IT BE COMPLETELY FLAT?
DO YOU KNOW WHICH GOES UNDER THE DRAIN IMPELLER AND WHICH GOES OVER THE O-RING?
SINCE I DON'T HAVE A GAUGE CAN I MAKE ONE? WOULD THIS TELL ME IF I HAVE THE RIGHT SHIMS?
I AWAIT A RESPONSE BEFORE I REASSEMBLE AGAIN.

RICK
THANKS AGAIN GUYS.




Post# 506786 , Reply# 9   3/25/2011 at 14:25 (4,752 days old) by marksman ()        

Yep. The more I look, the more I realize that way I had it there was virtually no compression on the o-ring.
I can't tell from any reveal marks which washer (shim) goes where.
The thickness is very close, not sure it would matter much.
But, I will await a reply.

Thanks again
Rick


Post# 507565 , Reply# 10   3/28/2011 at 11:05 (4,749 days old) by marksman ()        

Didn't hear back so I took my best guess.

THE THINNER SHIM WITH A BIGGER OUTSIDE DIAMETER WHEN ON TOP OF THE O-RING.
THE SECOND SHIM IS THICKER WITH A SMALLER OD, I PUT UNDER THE DRAIN IMPELLER.

Everything works great! I thought I would follow up post in case someone else runs into the same issue.

I have two other issues that I might address.
My timer seems to stick on start up. I quick tap gets it going.
My door seal seems to leak a bit.

If you have a good source for discount parts I'm all ears.
I'll check in to this site again.
Very helpful
Thanks
Rick


Post# 507609 , Reply# 11   3/28/2011 at 12:50 (4,749 days old) by rp2813 (Sannazay)        

rp2813's profile picture

Great news that you managed to find the correct configuration!

 

Members here have reported finding timers on ebay.  I don't know if Midwest Timer fixes your type or not, but you could always inquire.  It might just need to operate more to correct the problem on its own.

 

The door seal may "take up" after the machine has run for a while.  They're easy to remove and replace, though that will require pulling the machine out slightly from its enclosure.  Keep an eye out for a junker machine that you can use for interchangeable parts.  I think the door gaskets are the same for all KA machines made over a period of a decade or two, but experts here will know best if that includes the 16 series.  Things get a little sketchy starting with the 21 series when Whirlpool took over, but that applies more to the mechanics inside and below the tub more than anything else.


Post# 507739 , Reply# 12   3/28/2011 at 19:10 (4,749 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md)        
KDS-16 DOOR GASKET

combo52's profile picture

This gasket is on the door it is the same part used on the 15-17 machines. You do not have to partially remove this machine or any KA built-in DW ever made to replace the door seal.


Post# 507754 , Reply# 13   3/28/2011 at 20:05 (4,749 days old) by stevet (West Melbourne, FL)        
gaskets et al

Sorry I didn't see your post about how everything should go back together but apparently you figured it out and it stopped leaking.
The gaskets will leak if you run it without a rack in the bottom and also, as time went by,KA added some deflectors to the lower rack to keep water from shooting out of the sides of the doors. Your rack may or may not have them,so let me know and I can probably find 2 for you.I have seen this item posted on here before so maybe someone can add that picture here for reference.

The gaskets on the 15,16 and 17 series are all the same and they are door mounted.You peel the gasket open and you will see 18 small screws holding in a metal retainer(12 of them) that holds the gasket in place. It is a simple, but sometimes, time consuming project but sounds like you could handle it.
The gaskets on the 18 thru 23 series were tank mounted with clips that went thru the tank to hold it in place. They are not interchangeable with the earlier series so don't even think about wasting your time. Just won't work.

The Hobart part number for the gasket if you cannot find one anywhere else is 121030-00002 and there are plenty of them in stock as well as the door seal clips which is part number 24677 which is the same as the original KA part number.
They cost 19.20 and 1.95 each respectively. Hope this helps


Post# 507955 , Reply# 14   3/29/2011 at 16:17 (4,748 days old) by marksman ()        

The seal seems to leak just a bit at the top left side of the door. It isn't enough to leak on to the floor but it is enough to be causing some rust issues.

Now that I breathed some new life in the old girl, I may just treat her a few other new parts.

Awesome. Thanks for all your help.

Rick


Post# 507962 , Reply# 15   3/29/2011 at 16:54 (4,748 days old) by stevet (West Melbourne, FL)        
Tighten up!

If your door seal looks to be in good, pliable condition, you can tighten up the door by taking off the control panel which will reveal the door latch assembly.
The latch is held in by 4 screws, one in each corner. We adjusted them by placing additional washers under the latch and then retightening it. What you have done is moved the whole latch further away from the tank and thus made the white catch further back or actually, closer to the front of the door. Got the picture?

By doing this, the white catch will now pull the door closed tigher and thus compress the door seal against the inner tank better and should stop your leak. Do make sure that the machine is level as you can never tell where or when it could leak due to being out of square.
BTW, those little washers on the latch will eiother stay put or will fall out so be careful and replace them as you see them, i.e. put back what came out as a start and go from there.


Post# 509992 , Reply# 16   4/7/2011 at 12:44 (4,739 days old) by MARKSMAN ()        

Tighten up!


Bravo. That's all it needed.
Thanks once again.
Rick


Post# 510045 , Reply# 17   4/7/2011 at 18:23 (4,739 days old) by stevet (West Melbourne, FL)        
Tricks of the trade

Marksman, I am glad you fixed the leak and actually, that advice about shimming the door latch works on all the models that had the push down latch handle as well as on the ISE machines even though they use a sliding latch actuator. Inside, it is the same latch as the pushdown ones! and it does not matter if the gasket is on the door or on the tank!


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