KM BD teardown going well until...

Dave -

If I understand you correctly, here's what I can suggest:

"The trouble is that the inner tub spin drive block came out with the inner tub and it's now between the lint filter and inner tub." This is not unusual, at least I have had that happen to me probably a half-dozen times on washers of this vintage. There may be two rubber stoppers near the bottom of the basket centerpost that grabbed the drive block when you were pulling the basket out. There could also be centerpost debris/buildup that did the same thing. Either way, they saved you a step basically of having to remove the drive block by itself. Look for whatever is retaining the drive block in the basket centerpost and tap the block out from the top using a long screwdriver or similar lever. You will want to clean the basket's centerpost thoroughly and the driveblock before you reinstall it.

As to the stuck tub, you may have a little work on your hands at this point, and there is a way to do this, and several ways not to. In general, be very careful with the tub and how you handle it. These aren't crystal-fragile, but 25+ years of use may have left it rust-compromised and they never were as robust as their 1960s/1970s cousins either.

At this point, clean any debris from the centerpost down to the top of the rubber centerpost gasket. Liberally spray some penetrating oil or similar in between the gasket and centerpost. The tub may not give you any trouble now. If it does, read on....

If you have all four tub mounting bolts out, then it's simply stuck in place either by rust, build-up, or both. You should be able to "pop" each of the four mounts by inserting your fingers between the baseplate and tub. Do this carefully, as you do not want to put too much upward force on any of the four spots just yet. Do it just enough to assure that the tub is not stuck tight at any one mounting hole. The reason I say this is important - you don't want to put undue stress on the centerpost gasket collar in the middle of the tub, and vexing the tub will press on the center collar.

Once you have all four mounts un-stuck, try to twist the tub clockwise or counterclockwise. If you can twist the tub even a little bit, you know it is loose and just held in place by the center gasket. Spray some more penetrating oil on the center gasket. Try to lift the tub straight up - do not push it to one side or the another once it starts to gain some height. When it starts to rise, lubricate the centerpost with handsoap, it will make the trip up MUCH easier for the tub if build-up is in the way.

If the tub refuses to start coming up at all but will turn clockwise, etc, then the centerpost gasket is probably stuck to the centerpost itself. I had this happen not long ago on a summer 1982-built machine and have the scars on my left hand that will forever show the machine's gratitude for my help. Eventually I had to cut out the top of the center gasket with an Xacto knife. Once I did that, the tub still wouldn't budge upward. I was getting so annoyed that I had the machine literally picked up off the floor by the tub. Then, without warning, the tub finally released, and my left hand was slammed into the back left corner gusset and I needed stitches on my knuckles.

The reason I'm telling you all this is because the tub collar can rust to the gasket, which itself can rust to the centerpost. My case above was the most extreme I've seen of 60 or more machines I've done this on, but your stuck tub may be another. Hopefully it is nowhere near as fussy. My point for all the caution is to take care of the tub's center collar area. If this cracks or breaks during the handling, it won't be able to properly re-seal during re-installation. This was the undoing of numerous late model belt-drives for my mentor/washer buddy in the early 90s, and he wound up giving me the machines for which I bought new outer tubs and sold for top dollar. You can't get new outer tubs from WP anymore though, so you'll have to be careful with what you have.

As to the machine itself, I saw Melvin's picture of it. This is the top line 70 series model of the four in the 1983 line. For some reason it is quite rare as compared to two of the other 70 series machines, which were Sears' best sellers. Let me guess that the stock number is 23741 or 23748, depending on if the machine is white or almond? The top isn't really painted, it's powder-coated, which is about ten times better in rust-prevention than the truly painted tops which were discontinued in late 1982/early 1983.

Try what I said above Dave and see what you get. Sorry for the long dissertation!

Gordon


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Post# 516442 5/8/2011 at 21:44 (4,729 days old) by Volvoguy87 (Cincinnati, OH)
Checkrate/Likes I picked up what I think is a 1983 70 series Kenmore from Supremewhirlpol. It has a painted top, donut-style comb lint filter on the bottom of the inner tub, and relatively few options (compared to our '72 70 series). I've never taken a WP/KM Belt Drive apart before, but this is a relatively simple machine so I figured it would be a good start. I plan on giving it to a friend of mine to replace her 5-year-old dead LG. I've gotten the snubber out, the tub top and gasket off, and I've pulled the inner tub. The trouble is that the inner tub spin drive block came out with the inner tub and it's now between the lint filter and inner tub. I've removed the 4 bolts that hold the outer tub to the baseplate, now what? I've removed the bleach dispenser hose and the pressure dome hose. I can't get the outer tub to move. I haven't tried moving it too much yet though, in case there's something else holding it down I've missed. I need to replace the gasket between the outer tub and the pump trap. While I'm at it, I might as well replace the center gasket too. What do I do next? Dave

Post# 516475 , Reply# 1 5/9/2011 at 05:24 (4,729 days old) by kenmoreguy64 (Charlotte, NC)
Checkrate/Likes Dave - If I understand you correctly, here's what I can suggest: "The trouble is that the inner tub spin drive block came out with the inner tub and it's now between the lint filter and inner tub." This is not unusual, at least I have had that happen to me probably a half-dozen times on washers of this vintage. There may be two rubber stoppers near the bottom of the basket centerpost that grabbed the drive block when you were pulling the basket out. There could also be centerpost debris/buildup that did the same thing. Either way, they saved you a step basically of having to remove the drive block by itself. Look for whatever is retaining the drive block in the basket centerpost and tap the block out from the top using a long screwdriver or similar lever. You will want to clean the basket's centerpost thoroughly and the driveblock before you reinstall it. As to the stuck tub, you may have a little work on your hands at this point, and there is a way to do this, and several ways not to. In general, be very careful with the tub and how you handle it. These aren't crystal-fragile, but 25+ years of use may have left it rust-compromised and they never were as robust as their 1960s/1970s cousins either. At this point, clean any debris from the centerpost down to the top of the rubber centerpost gasket. Liberally spray some penetrating oil or similar in between the gasket and centerpost. The tub may not give you any trouble now. If it does, read on.... If you have all four tub mounting bolts out, then it's simply stuck in place either by rust, build-up, or both. You should be able to "pop" each of the four mounts by inserting your fingers between the baseplate and tub. Do this carefully, as you do not want to put too much upward force on any of the four spots just yet. Do it just enough to assure that the tub is not stuck tight at any one mounting hole. The reason I say this is important - you don't want to put undue stress on the centerpost gasket collar in the middle of the tub, and vexing the tub will press on the center collar. Once you have all four mounts un-stuck, try to twist the tub clockwise or counterclockwise. If you can twist the tub even a little bit, you know it is loose and just held in place by the center gasket. Spray some more penetrating oil on the center gasket. Try to lift the tub straight up - do not push it to one side or the another once it starts to gain some height. When it starts to rise, lubricate the centerpost with handsoap, it will make the trip up MUCH easier for the tub if build-up is in the way. If the tub refuses to start coming up at all but will turn clockwise, etc, then the centerpost gasket is probably stuck to the centerpost itself. I had this happen not long ago on a summer 1982-built machine and have the scars on my left hand that will forever show the machine's gratitude for my help. Eventually I had to cut out the top of the center gasket with an Xacto knife. Once I did that, the tub still wouldn't budge upward. I was getting so annoyed that I had the machine literally picked up off the floor by the tub. Then, without warning, the tub finally released, and my left hand was slammed into the back left corner gusset and I needed stitches on my knuckles. The reason I'm telling you all this is because the tub collar can rust to the gasket, which itself can rust to the centerpost. My case above was the most extreme I've seen of 60 or more machines I've done this on, but your stuck tub may be another. Hopefully it is nowhere near as fussy. My point for all the caution is to take care of the tub's center collar area. If this cracks or breaks during the handling, it won't be able to properly re-seal during re-installation. This was the undoing of numerous late model belt-drives for my mentor/washer buddy in the early 90s, and he wound up giving me the machines for which I bought new outer tubs and sold for top dollar. You can't get new outer tubs from WP anymore though, so you'll have to be careful with what you have. As to the machine itself, I saw Melvin's picture of it. This is the top line 70 series model of the four in the 1983 line. For some reason it is quite rare as compared to two of the other 70 series machines, which were Sears' best sellers. Let me guess that the stock number is 23741 or 23748, depending on if the machine is white or almond? The top isn't really painted, it's powder-coated, which is about ten times better in rust-prevention than the truly painted tops which were discontinued in late 1982/early 1983. Try what I said above Dave and see what you get. Sorry for the long dissertation! Gordon

Post# 516476 , Reply# 2 5/9/2011 at 05:34 (4,729 days old) by kenmoreguy64 (Charlotte, NC)
Checkrate/Likes *A few other things:* There is not much comparison between a 1972 700 and any later 70-series belt-drive machines. As we came out of the mid-70s, Kenmore's models went 'back to their roots' so to speak. Second rinses, detergent dispensers, quiet-pak belts, etc. went back to being high-end only options. In fact, there were only two 1983 models that had these options, the 23811 (a VERY rare 80-series) and the Lady Ks. When you replace the tub drain hose, the part is 93553 (I know you can find this yourself) and should still be available from WP? When you install a new one, make sure the surface of the baseplate is clean and free of rust or debris. The new grommet/hose will seal best when this area is clean and it can seat flat. Do not mount the manifold underneath until the tub is seated and tight above. Gordon

Post# 516491 , Reply# 3 5/9/2011 at 07:11 (4,728 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md)
Checkrate/Likes *REBUILDING A 1983 BD KM WASHER* Hi Dave rebuilding a BD WP built washer is and can be a big job all kinds of things go wrong with these as they age that are not that easy to fix. The WP BD washer is actually one of the most complex and hardest to do major repairs on, they were relatively easy to do normal repairs on but when they get old and leaky and get water in the mechanical parts thats another story completely. As Gordon and I and many others on this site can tell you who have rebuilt hundreds of BD washers that the first attempts often have problems and if you want to do this you should plan on using this washer yourself for at least a year or two of regular use before I would even think of doing a friend a favor with this washer. I don't mean to be too negative about this and we all need to learn to fix and do the things in life that we want to do sometime. But the days of selling or giving WP built BD washers is pretty much over, these machines are collector machines or for those of us that can fix them. In order to be doing anyone a favor with one of these you need a lot of spare parts and experience and need to be near by to quickly fix any problems that will arise. Even with our experience fixing these great washers I would not sell one to a customer of ours. We do still repair them in the field, and we probably still work on at least a half dozen per month, but I dought that I will ever replace a transmission or clutch or even do an outer tub leak repair in the field again. Dave as I have stated before to you and anyone else if you want to learn to repair WP BD washers we have lots of classic ones here that can be rebuilt. Come and spend a few days, you can even bring a machine, I know Gordon has also offered to help folks that may want to do this. Good Luck and keep us posted and I will help where I can but I wouldn't try to explain the whole rebuilding process online.

Post# 516697 , Reply# 4 5/9/2011 at 21:18 (4,728 days old) by Volvoguy87 (Cincinnati, OH)
Checkrate/Likes *82374800* The washer is an 82374800 and is almond. If the top is powder coated, it still can't touch the quality of a porcelain top. Whatever the coating is, it's flaking off underneath like thin dry paper. There's no rust-through. just a fair bit of underside surface rust. The outer tub is coated with a dry white buildup on everything below waterline. It's pretty easy to remove, but I think it's the result of an overdosing of detergent. I can now twist the outer tub, but I still cannot pull it up. I scraped lots of crud off the centerpost, but it looks to be in sound condition. The donut gasket that seals the tub to the centerpost is stuck to the centerpost. I still plan to give this machine to my friend. I feel confident that it will perform well in that role. While it's apart, I plan to replace all the seals and gaskets, as well as give it a good cleaning and inspection. Once it's back together, I'll use it as a daily driver for a few weeks of close observation to make sure there aren't problems. Since my friend lives nearby, I'll be seeing it again. She knows it's nearly 30 years old and will likely require service and accepts it as a fact of vintage appliance ownership. That's the update for the evening, Dave

Post# 516767 , Reply# 5 5/10/2011 at 07:50 (4,727 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md)
Checkrate/Likes *REBUILDING A 1983 BD KM WASHER* Hi Dave thanks for the update, the white buildup is caused by using TOO LITTLE detergent, it is mineral buildup from the minerals in the water supply. If it was excess detergent it would rinse off as easily as spilled dried detergent does off the tops of machines that we sometimes see. I think one of the interesting things about mineral buildups in washers is that you never see this in commercial machines. In commercial washers people use all different types of detergent and often overdose it to boot which protects the machine from harmful mineral buildups. In commercial washers you don't see the bad habits of people always using just a little Arm&Hammer, Sears or Am-way detergent. These are three of the worst offenders but any detergent can be misused.

Post# 518264 , Reply# 6 5/16/2011 at 12:47 (4,721 days old) by Volvoguy87 (Cincinnati, OH)
Checkrate/Likes *Progress!* The outer tub is now out of the machine! All I need to do is drop the transmission so I can replace the centerpost seals. Thus far, it seems relatively straightforward (famous last words). What's the procedure for treating the centerpost? Should I apply POR-15 after cleaning it up, or some other coating? Also, how do I remove the upper centerpost seals. The washer doesn't need bearings, but I want to replace the seals and add some Zoom Spout for a long and leak-free life. Dave

Post# 518311 , Reply# 7 5/16/2011 at 17:24 (4,721 days old) by kenmoreguy64 (Charlotte, NC)
Checkrate/Likes Dave - I believe I wrote this before, either in this post or in another related one very recently, but I know of no way to remove the top centerpost bearing seals without removing the upper bearing and doing at least half if not a whole bearing job. Hence is the reason my 1986 Kenmore which I purchased new has been down for the last few years. It doesn't need bearings either but this is a bugger of a job unless you're in the mood for it. In a taller centerpost machine, there is only one seal, and it isn't more than 1/4 to 3/8 inch in height. It can be removed using a flat-blade screw driver to bend it and needle-nose pliers to tug it out. The 1978 and newer machines have TWO seals stacked atop each other, and they are more than twice the height of the original, each. These are pretty stout seals and I don't know if they can be bent and tugged out. By far the easiest way is to remove the whole upper bearing which will take the seals with it, but then you have to press in a new bearing. Perhaps someone else here has a better method. If so, I AM ALL EARS!!!! :-) Gordon

Post# 518329 , Reply# 8 5/16/2011 at 18:21 (4,721 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md)
Checkrate/Likes *CENTER POST SEALS* If no water has gotten to the bearings you only need change the top most seal or seals. The real question is what does the spin tube look like in the area where the seal rubs on the spin tube. If the seal has worn through the nickel-chrome plating and the shaft has a scored grove worn in it you not only need a new spin tube but any seal that touched that worn area must be replaced. The same goes for the agitator shaft. The most frequent rebuild on a washer like yours where water is not in the bearings is changing the top seal[s] and replacing the spin tube. The two top seals can be distorted and pried out I never change the bearings if they are not worn. New oil on on top of the upper bearing and good grease between the two top seals and it will run as long as it did originally.

Post# 519792 , Reply# 9 5/22/2011 at 19:26 (4,715 days old) by Volvoguy87 (Cincinnati, OH)
Checkrate/Likes *KM Belt Drives are a lot lighter when the guts are out.* Here's the latest, since I've finally gotten time to work on the machine. First the good news: The transmission, pump, belt, and some hoses are out. It all was relatively straightforward and not too hard (a bit messy though!). Second the better news: The transmission has a rebuild sticker on the top. I think it says either 1996 or 1998. It also is not leaking water. I hope this means there is no water in the transmission :). Now the rough news. Whoever rebuilt the transmission did something a little wrong. The gasket looks to have either failed or not been installed properly. I can see the gasket between the top and bottom halves of the transmission sticking out in some places. As a result, the transmission has lost some oil, pretty evenly all the way around. I guess I'll be opening up the transmission, having a look around, and replacing gasket and giving it an oil change. Also, (and this is the worst news) the basket drive is stuck. I want to remove the basket drive so I can replace the centerpost seals. The spin tube won't come out of the centerpost. It will pull out a few inches, then it gets jammed up somehow. Should I place some rags and a block of wood on the top and pound it out with my small sledge hammer, or is there a trick to use in this instance? The spin tube is coated with a layer of black grease and looks to be in good shape. The centerpost has some surface rust on the outside, but I think I can wore brush it off very carefully and coat it with some POR-15. Is this a good idea? Thus far, working on a Belt Drive isn't as painful and full of suffering as I had expected. Dave

Post# 519847 , Reply# 10 5/23/2011 at 00:51 (4,715 days old) by kenmoreguy64 (Charlotte, NC)
Checkrate/Likes *Thus far, working on a Belt Drive isn't as painful and f* Well I hate to say it Dave, but you're about to experience some.... The spin tube should not be covered in any black grease, but this is fairly common, and it does mean that the centerpost is becoming contaminated. If you're going to change the seals, it doesn't matter so much what sort of leaks were developing, not in my opinion, but you'll want to clean inside very well, and re-grease and oil the bearings. Resealing later will correct whatever condition led this to develop. As an FYI, new centerposts have nothing in them as far as lubrication but Rykon grease and turbine oil, nothing black. It is fairly common for grooves to develop on spin tubes, and on agitator shafts. These grooves become an obstacle in tight spaces like good bearings. You got over one hurdle if you got the tranmission shaft out of the spin tube. Here's what I have done to get a stuck basket drive/spin tube out of a center post: (assuming you have the agitator and basket out, and the drive block off the spin tube) With the machine laying down and the basket drive back at it's fully inserted position, grasp the drive pulley. Find a comfortable spot and try to keep your fingers off the clutch yoke, which should be flopping around freely. Turn the pulley and clutch assembly back and forth, WHILE you pull on the assembly. Turning it back and fourth will give you far easier progress in removal than pulling straight out. I have never had a basket drive I could not get out, but had many that gave me trouble, and plenty that required Advil for my back later. If the spin tube has heavy grooves on it, your bearings may have seen better days by the time it is removed, so plan accordingly. As to the transmission gasket - every belt drive I've ever used, and that includes my Mom's three and the one I bought new, have oozed oil. You can always see a millimeter or two of the gasket in between the cover and lower sections. Unless you have entire or large sections of the gasket, this is normal. Transmissions rarely stay dry (from oil), and never stay clean. If yours isn't gushing, and what you see is golden in color, I would be inclined to leave the gearcase alone because getting it back together is going to cause you headache number TWO, and I am not sure it's worth the trouble. Good luck! Gordon This post was last edited 05/23/2011 at 01:11

Post# 519849 , Reply# 11 5/23/2011 at 01:03 (4,715 days old) by kenmoreguy64 (Charlotte, NC)
Checkrate/Likes *KM Belt Drives are a lot lighter when the guts are out* Here's a funny little story from my early days of Kenmore rebuilding: My mentor buddy had a nice white late model black panel machine which must have had a factory flaw in the centerpost, as it had broken from the baseplate. The machine was about 10 years old. He had a sale upcoming to a customer of a matched pair, which required this machine. His solution was to salvage the baseplate out of a machine which would have otherwise been earmarked for me. It was the same model as you're working on Dave, but in Avocado, which for 1983 models was unheard of. My friend felt he could not sell it for top dollar in that color, so he made it a parts donor (much to my horror as the machine was only 8 years old). I had been waiting for the day when he gave it to me, so I told him that I still wanted it, base-plate missing and all. I then bought a new baseplate from WP for $80 or something silly like that. He gave me all the remaining parts, which were easily re-assembled on an 8-year old machine. BUT, the funny part is that I carried it all home in my truck, taken apart. I had the cabinet, top, and control panel as one piece, the basket, agitator, tub ring, pump in another heap, and the transmission, motor etc. loose on the truck bed. When I went to unload it, I grabbed the parts first, which my neighbors were by then all too used to seeing. Then I got the cabinet out - I slid it to the tailgate as usual, jumped down, and just reached up and lifted it off the truck, and up the driveway. I carried it about waist height. Then I heard one of the neighbors shriek - LOOK AT THAT! She shouted, "He's carrying a whole machine!!!" I never explained that the machine was gutted... G

Post# 519932 , Reply# 12 5/23/2011 at 10:43 (4,714 days old) by Volvoguy87 (Cincinnati, OH)
Checkrate/Likes *Thanks* I'll give it a try when next I get a chance to work on the machine, hopefully tomorrow after work. The gasket looks like it is sticking out past the edge of the gearcase by maybe an eighth of an inch or more in some places. The oil coming out is nice and golden though, it's not black slime. Thanks Gordon, Dave