Thread Number: 34859
Why do Euro washers have heaters? |
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Post# 522159   6/3/2011 at 01:12 (4,856 days old) by arbilab (Ft Worth TX (Ridglea))   |   | |
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No US washer I know of has a heater but it seems EVERY Euro washer does. Why is that? Surely Euros don't bathe in their washing machines or in cold water so why is it necessary for the washer to heat its own water?
In US, every plumbing outlet except outdoors (for gardening) has both hot and cold. 'Hot' is typically 120F. I see Euro washer temps much higher, 65C/150F or more. Is that necessary for your detergent formulas and hard water? That much heat for laundry seems very wasteful by US standards where cold-water detergents are common. Even considering US energy costs tend to be lower. Our dishwashers all have heaters but our clothes washers never do. I wash clothes in "warm" which is about body temperature, should be sufficient to melt body soil so that detergent can get at it. I get laundry VERY dirty--yellow--but it always comes out fine. And our water is not 'soft', it's 1 PPT dissolved solids. |
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Post# 522167 , Reply# 2   6/3/2011 at 01:53 (4,856 days old) by ozzie908 (Lincoln UK)   |   | |
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It could have something to do with the majority of machines nowadays are cold fill only! My machine uses so little water that by the time the hot water had even begun to reach the machine the valve would close hence no need for a hot supply as for why this is always been the case I have no clue but it is nice to be able to decide what temperature to use. Its also usefull to be able to thermally disenfect things at 60c to kill bacteria and bugs without using chemicals. I know in my home and in a lot of others we no longer have tanks of hot water I have a Combi Boiler that heats what I draw off and my shower is instant too I save a lot of money not having to heat water I am not using for instance in my kitchen if I turn the hot tap on I have to waste 7 litres of water before it gets hot but my dishwasher only uses 8 litres to do the whole cycle...
Austin This post was last edited 06/03/2011 at 04:26 |
Post# 522171 , Reply# 4   6/3/2011 at 03:22 (4,856 days old) by foraloysius (Leeuwarden, Friesland, the Netherlands)   |   | |
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I think there are so many answers to this question. One of them is the tradition of boiling whites. Constructa, the manufacturer that brought the first European frontloader on the market, devellopped machines that could do a real boil wash. Detergents weren't as good as nowadays so to compensate that whites were boiled. Here's a video of a real boil wash machine.
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Post# 522179 , Reply# 5   6/3/2011 at 04:15 (4,856 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)   |   | |
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Lack of large central hot water heaters, and the rather dear costs for electric make it much more economical for the washing machine to heat water to the proper temperature.
Unlike her American sisters, European and British housewives did not totally abandon the "old ways" of doing laundry when automatic washers took over. Starting with hot water will set stains and soils. Far better to do the wash as it has been done for ages, with a cool or cold water soak, then warm, very warm, hot or boiling wash. The difference is the new frontloaders could take cold water and heat it to hot or boiling thus in most circumstances eliminating the need for a pre-wash/soak first. However that may have been many EU/UK front loaders used a pre-wash as part of their "normal" cycles until rather recently. Even with semi automatic washing machines were introduced by Miele and Hoover, there was a way to heat water so a "boil wash" was possible. Miele units had a firebox that one could build a fire in to do the job. In the United States boiling as a routine part of laundry day went out by and large when automatics came in. When wringer washers were norm, many housewives did still stick to a cold water pre-wash or soak, but as automatics took over they just bunged the wash into the machine and set it for hot. Use of chlorine bleach by the gallon meant stains would be removed (or at least lightened) so starting from warm or hot water wasn't a huge issue. Laundry day in the United States was something many wanted to get over with soon as possible. Adding a pre-wash or soak unless absolutely required made more work and or tied up the washing machine. |
Post# 522182 , Reply# 6   6/3/2011 at 05:42 (4,856 days old) by DADoES (TX, U.S. of A.)   |   | |
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There are numerous U.S. washers with onboard water heaters, but they're for supplemental heat, not primary heating from a cold fill.
- "old-style" Neptune frontloaders MAH6500 and MAH7500
- Neptune TL FAV9800 (although they're rare)
- most any HE toploader/frontloader with a Sanitary cycle has a heater ... Samsung models, LG models, Whirlpool Duet and Cabrio, Kenmore HEt and Oasis, Maytag Bravos, KitchenAid Ensemble, etc. |
Post# 522221 , Reply# 9   6/3/2011 at 11:37 (4,856 days old) by donprohel (I live in Munich - Germany, but I am Italian)   |   | |
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Why don't US washers have heaters? :) |
Post# 522244 , Reply# 10   6/3/2011 at 13:33 (4,856 days old) by pierreandreply4 (St-Bruno de montarville (province of quebec) canada)   |   | |
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because i think that for the us and canada for so many years during the end of the 70 to 2000 most us or canadian household had toploading washers because for most the sale of front load washers in the us and canada started around 2004 when whirlpool introduce the generation 1 duet front load washer and thats the pretty basic model without the heater the heater model was introduce the following year in 2005 with the ht duet model the pic i am incuding is the set i have that will be repalce when they break by a toploading washer with agitator are the generation 1 duet fl washer with matching dryer
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Post# 522280 , Reply# 11   6/3/2011 at 14:50 (4,856 days old) by arbilab (Ft Worth TX (Ridglea))   |   | |
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Thanks to all respondents. Explains much of it. Also shows I haven't kept up with the features in US washers, that some DO have (aux) heaters. I should have said I have used a FL last 13yr as well as growing up with one. I have some evidence that TLs scrub better but they rinse and spin worse and use at least twice the water.
In US, washers often sit aside the water tank so the delay getting hot water is low. My tank is above the dryer. Instant/demand/tankless water heaters are beginning to show up but not yet widely adopted. Also, natural gas is available in many homes so a tank heater is not anywhere near as expensive to run as a mains heater. Our mains rate is around 12c US but fees and services raises it closer to 15c. Well under 20c UK. In grandma's day our detergents weren't very good either so she may have had to cold soak/hot wash. By the time I was watching her and the Easy Spindrier she just used one hot wash from the tank. |
Post# 522282 , Reply# 12   6/3/2011 at 14:57 (4,856 days old) by Spankomatic (Ukiah,CA)   |   | |
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Post# 522297 , Reply# 13   6/3/2011 at 15:43 (4,856 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)   |   | |
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Is rather a recent invention!
Until safety and energy concerns caused household water heaters to be mainly set at 120F, hot was 140F and even 180F (settings available on many vintage water heaters such as Rudd), to make sure a housewife had enough hot water for laundry, dishwashing (both hand and later early dishwashers), and so forth. If one examines instructions printed on American top loaders inside lids and or owner's manuals, "hot" water is given as at least 130F, with 120F being "very warm". Warm was "110F" not the 100F to 105F we have now. |
Post# 522311 , Reply# 14   6/3/2011 at 16:55 (4,856 days old) by ronhic (Canberra, Australia)   |   | |
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Well until about 15 years ago, many front load machines in the UK were both hot and cold connect as well as having a heater in them. This, in conjunction with high water levels, allowed relatively quick wash cycles.
Many homes in the UK do have storage tanks connected to the central heating boiler, but the run to the kitchen is often long and water, as explained above, is often tepid by the time it reaches the machine if pipes are not primed first. Additionally, the thermal mass of 15 or so litres is not sufficient to keep 'hot' compared to the much greater mass in a top load machine.
Now, we also need to take into consideration that detergents have come a long way since the 1960's too. Many have enzyme cocktails in them that require different temperature 'bands' to work properly...though many are no formulated to work well in cool/cold water, most detergents will work best at 40c-60c....by starting with a cold intake, you effectively get a short component of the wash cycle in cold water - which is good for stains that hot will set. The heater then takes the water, often in stages, to the desired temperature.
Another factor that Europe, Asia and Australia have in their (our) favour is 220-250 volt standard domestic supply. It's in every room in every power point. It is much faster to heat water with 220-250v than it is with 110v.
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Post# 522345 , Reply# 15   6/3/2011 at 21:56 (4,855 days old) by arbilab (Ft Worth TX (Ridglea))   |   | |
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US has 240V for large appliances. Stove, dryer, mains heater, central cooling. 120V plugins are limited to 1.5kW, you can imagine how long it would take to heat water like that. Although my dryer is 120V 1.5kW. 1984 Lady Kenmore with wheels. Or hair dryer with a drum. I'm never in that big a rush for laundry and even still my 'average' load only takes 40min after 800r spin.
And yes, standard water temp was more like 140F and dishwashers almost require that unless you prerinse pretty well AND run the faucet at every fill so ALL the water is hot. Until the 'safety' folks said 120F was preferable. Have to admit, 120F is safer, can't really injure you. Also cheaper to keep a tank at 120F than 140F. Mine is set to 115F. But I'm on a mains heater and they are very expensive even with 'cheap' electric. Again thanks for the contributions and if you have more please feel free. |
Post# 522369 , Reply# 16   6/3/2011 at 23:14 (4,855 days old) by ronhic (Canberra, Australia)   |   | |
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We have a newer, on demand hot water system that I can dial the temperature up to a maximum of 55c/ 140f in the kitchen...and 50c/130f in the bathroom...
However, my parents have an older storage unit that will do 70c/160f...now that is rather warm...for tap water....
On the other hand, my grandmother had a wood stove in her kitchen that had a 'back boiler' for the hot water service...I've had that literally boiling when I was 10yrs old.... |
Post# 522394 , Reply# 17   6/4/2011 at 02:32 (4,855 days old) by mielabor ()   |   | |
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Here 120 F is considered unsafe for a hot water system. The temperature should be at least 140 F (60 C) to prevent Legionella growth. |
Post# 522432 , Reply# 20   6/4/2011 at 11:22 (4,855 days old) by pierreandreply4 (St-Bruno de montarville (province of quebec) canada)   |   | |
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Post# 522456 , Reply# 21   6/4/2011 at 14:59 (4,855 days old) by arbilab (Ft Worth TX (Ridglea))   |   | |
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Post# 522491 , Reply# 22   6/4/2011 at 17:44 (4,854 days old) by Tomturbomatic (Beltsville, MD)   |   | |
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You seem to be under the mistaken impression that high washing temps were to sanitize clothes. You don't sterilize at these temps. The high temps were used to bleach whites without using bleaching agents. It is very effective. |
Post# 522502 , Reply# 23   6/4/2011 at 18:34 (4,854 days old) by ronhic (Canberra, Australia)   |   | |
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Post# 522504 , Reply# 24   6/4/2011 at 18:36 (4,854 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)   |   | |
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By a well respected lab and it was then proved that laundering textiles at 160F for ten minutes rendered the items "germ free" enough to be considered sanitary. It is from that study that we have the common commercial laundry practice or standard required by law that is mandated in many areas when dealing with public and or hospital laundry.
However being as all that may, further subsequent studies and tests proved there are other ways of obtaining the same results. Wash programs, liquid chlorine bleach, oxygen bleach, peracetic chemicals and so forth when done properly all will reduce germ count on textiles to the same levels as boiling. Commercial laundries in particular were seeking ways to reduce their costs, especially heating all that water. There is also no denying that boil washes are harsh on textiles. It reduces their life span and causes shrinkage (amoung other problems), things that tended to tick customers off. In Germany (a country known for almost having a thing about things being clean), the standard for hospital and similar types of wash is 180F! You haven't seen white uniforms and linens until you've been to a German hospital. The ratty scrubs worn by most staff here the states would never pass muster there. |
Post# 522508 , Reply# 25   6/4/2011 at 18:41 (4,854 days old) by ronhic (Canberra, Australia)   |   | |
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Post# 522534 , Reply# 26   6/4/2011 at 21:53 (4,854 days old) by arbilab (Ft Worth TX (Ridglea))   |   | |
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Post# 522624 , Reply# 28   6/5/2011 at 11:24 (4,854 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)   |   | |
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Very much depends on where in the world they are located amoung other things.
Whilst once common that most hospitals did have in-house laundry facilites, such service along with quite a few others have been out-sourced over the years. The main push for this is hospitals/healthcare settings seeking to concentrate on their core mission. Thus things which are not seen as essential to that mission, and indeed are a non-revenue producing expense are mananged in such a way as to keep costs down. Commercial laundries are heavily regulated today, right down to the workers and for good reason. The equipment can not only be dangerous to those whom operate it, but the builing it is housed in and surrounding area as well. As modern "steam laundries" took over from hand washing and or hiring in persons to do the wash it was even then recommended to have such facilites away from the main hospital building or at least far away from patient care as possible. All that heat, water, moisture, smells, etc aren't something you'd want wafting into the wards especially before modern air conditioning was invented. The first hospital I ever worked in, the laundry was located apart from the main building. A great big gothic thing it was, and considered it a "treat" to be sent by the head nurse to fetch clean linens when the floors were out. At one time hospitals had few other choices but to do their own wash. Commercial laundries would probably loved to have the business, but their other customers out of concerns about the spread of germs would probably avoid sending their wash. Before modern germ theory and antibiotics came into being a housewife was considered nearly a slattern if she didn't do everything in her power to prevent illness from entering her home. Even priviate washer women could loose business if word got out they took washing from a home where scarlet fever, diptheria and or any of the other once common infectious diseases broke out. Commercial laundry equipment is very expensive and in today's economy it makes sense to keep it in full production. Also don't forget the workers have to be paid regardless of there being 50lbs of linen or 500lbs per day. Far easier to send it out. Today all over the world there are major laundry services that do nothing but hospital/healthcare linens. The best are outfitted with equipment some hospitals can only dream about (barrier washers for instance). Quality control issues can be solved by simply putting the proper person in charge. This usually falls to someone in the nursing service, and or infection control. If laundry comes back from the wash failing to meet certain standards you can bet a phone call will be made. Many hospitals today also have taken a page from restaurants and hotels by not even owning their own linen. It is rented with a contract service that also provides the laundering as well. At one time most all hospital's either laundered staff uniforms/clothing (mainly doctors and nurses), but as the cost of the service grew and domestic washing machines (and later dryers) became more common (or the laundromat), gradually the service was withdrawn. As female nursing uniforms moved from long sleeved starched whites to easy care cotton, cotton/synthetic blends or all synthetic textiles, the need for "commercial" laundering was decreased if not eliminated. Indeed the near boil wash temps used by such places actually will harm anything but pure cotton fabrics. Now that most everyone and their mother wears scrubs on duty, there is little need in some minds to offer laundry service. Mind you in the days when doctors and only certian nurses got to wear scrubs they were laundered by the hospital. That is still true today for those working in certain areas. However in some parts of the world (such as Germany) doctors and nurses do not by and large travel to and from work in uniform (scrubs)as they do here in the states. Changing rooms are provided and the soiled things are sent to the hospital's wash and one picks up a fresh set upon arriving for duty. |
Post# 522673 , Reply# 29   6/5/2011 at 14:56 (4,854 days old) by arbilab (Ft Worth TX (Ridglea))   |   | |
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Well we know that hospitals are the #1 place to get an infection if you didn't already have one, so obviously SOMEthing isn't exactly working and what should be the experts in disease transmission don't know EVERYthing or alternately don't practice it faithfully.
I wash hands when coming in from the outside world but figure I'm immune to anything that's already in my house, including my own clothes. Haven't been sick at all* in 6 years so whatever I'm doing apparently works for me. (*Nose might run for 24 hours couple times a year, assume that's a passing rhinovirus.) |
Post# 522998 , Reply# 32   6/6/2011 at 21:22 (4,852 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)   |   | |
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Chemcial disenfection when properly done is streets ahead of thermal methods. I'd take my chances with the remaining 0.001% of "germs",versus the much larger colonies that remain after using most methods of heat.
For one thing as with other living things various germs/moulds/bacteria, and so forth are killed by various levels of heat. E coli mostly is done in at temps of 160F for ten minutes, but there are yeasts which would require >180F for twice that long and even then may not totally kill everything. There is also the slow heating of water in all but the most high powered commercial washers leaves "germs" plenty of time to develop defences.Yes many will die but others that remain to live another day emerge to find the field cleared. What most persons using chemical disinfectants fail to do is read and follow the directions properly. There are two parts to the system; cleaning, then disenfecting. This applies for thermal methods as well. Every bottle of registered disenfectant will direct one to clean the surface first, then with a fresh solution (at proper dilution), apply and allow the surface to remain wet for a period of time.Simply wiping things down isn't the same. Chlorine bleach is such powerful chemical that it is the standard for disenfection. Because it is so inexpensive the stuff is widely used for that purpose. |
Post# 523081 , Reply# 36   6/7/2011 at 08:20 (4,852 days old) by ronhic (Canberra, Australia)   |   | |
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...the longest cycle on my machine...
The 95c quick wash - wash, 2 rinses with intermittant spins is 1:46
...the full cycle is 2:25 with 3 rinses...
Should I add a pre-wash at 30c and super rinse, I get....30c, 20 minute pre-wash, long wash at 95c and 5 rinses....3:10....
Items best be very clean after that.... |
Post# 523089 , Reply# 37   6/7/2011 at 08:59 (4,852 days old) by mrboilwash (Munich,Germany)   |   | |
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Launderess you are so right about Germans having a thing about things being clean.
Sometimes I am really amazed about the greyish sheets and towels provided in some not so cheap hotels in the States. Same is often true for some fastfood chains in the States. One is spick and span and a few hundred yards down the street the next one of the same brand is often found in a condition that would never pass public health inspection over here. As to sanitation of clothes I think to recall a European study which was posted here some time ago. The one comparing Greek, Spanish and other countrys` laundry habits. I think there was a conclusion that even when using a powder with activated oxygen bleach there is not much difference in germ reduction in cold and warm water. Things were a little bit better at 60°C but still far away from perfect. I agree that in most cases there is no need to sanitize clothes for health aspects. But I find it very handy to be able to "boil" clothes in the washer just because things stay fresh for much longer when sanitized. No need to change sheets every other day. |
Post# 523100 , Reply# 40   6/7/2011 at 09:45 (4,852 days old) by PassatDoc (Orange County, California)   |   | |
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Josephine The Plumber |
Post# 523103 , Reply# 41   6/7/2011 at 10:10 (4,852 days old) by pierreandreply4 (St-Bruno de montarville (province of quebec) canada)   |   | |
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i am sorry but for me the best way to protect color is to wash them in cold water as all cleaning label state that colors are best protected when wash in cold water so i would say that what is mention in this post "select warm possibly throw in a colour catcher is totaly false as washing colors in warm water cause the colors to fade with time" and also washing in cold water is the best way to protect any kind of fabrics so i would not see the point in having a heater in a washer or to have a sanitize cycle. Thats just my point of view and i am sorry in advance if i offended anyone
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Post# 523104 , Reply# 42   6/7/2011 at 10:16 (4,852 days old) by mrx ()   |   | |
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There's an early 80s Ariel Automatic advert featuring a very plummy sounding English early 80s housewife and an equally plummy-sounding sounding Irish Voice Over. CLICK HERE TO GO TO mrx's LINK |
Post# 523105 , Reply# 43   6/7/2011 at 10:20 (4,852 days old) by mrx ()   |   | |
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The strangest 1980s Ariel advert ever - Aimed at UK/IRL market. All about washing at low temperatures. CLICK HERE TO GO TO mrx's LINK |
Post# 523135 , Reply# 45   6/7/2011 at 12:50 (4,852 days old) by Toggleswitch (New York City, NY)   |   | |
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One needs these components to wash clothing /fabrics well:
Time Temperature Water Chemicals Mechanical action. Lack of sufficient water and mechanical actions as well as tree-hugging chemicals means that one needs lots more time and heat to get good results. (Efficiency means getting the job done with fewer resources; not using fewer resources and NOT getting the job done). With a top-loader one arguably didn't NEED to heat the water to such an extent. We got used to not having heaters. As previously stated- using 240v one can push through double the wattage of what one can using 120v, using the same gauge (thickness) of wire. An ordinary 120v outlet on a 20a line is limited to 2,400 watts, and one normally only uses 80% of that, being 1,920 watts. Cant really use a major heater (high wattage) with a motor load as well. Still one cant argue that boil-washing my whites leaves iced-tea and coffee colored water... (yes without any skid marks present at commencement). LOL This post was last edited 06/07/2011 at 14:06 |
Post# 523145 , Reply# 46   6/7/2011 at 13:43 (4,852 days old) by arbilab (Ft Worth TX (Ridglea))   |   | |
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Most machines also have an option of a pre-wash too...
====================================================== Zackly what my Frigi does. Clockwork timer so if you want PW and MW at different temps you need to stand there and flip the temp knob. Seldom use it. My stuff goes in dirty (skin oil) but not filthy (car grease), comes out fine in half hour, single 95F wash. Spot hard to festoon how one reconciles astronomical mains rates and 2-hour heated washes. But laundry can tend toward obsessive. Look how many lively folk we have right here talking about it every day. :)) |
Post# 523250 , Reply# 47   6/8/2011 at 00:48 (4,851 days old) by nclh77 ()   |   | |
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Most European laundry hook-ups only have cold water. There is no hot water hook-up. |
Post# 523383 , Reply# 51   6/8/2011 at 15:30 (4,851 days old) by arbilab (Ft Worth TX (Ridglea))   |   | |
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Makes fine sense to have a heater in the washer in markets which are either electric heat anyway (costs no more) or have only one laundry tap. Single-tap laundry is unheard of in US in my lifetime. But not everyone gets natural gas service-- none of the apartments in this town have gas and electric is costly for heat.
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Post# 523530 , Reply# 54   6/9/2011 at 11:19 (4,850 days old) by foraloysius (Leeuwarden, Friesland, the Netherlands)   |   | |
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I grew up in a house that was built in the early sixties. Above the boiler of the central heating system there was a huge water heater that could be heated by the boiler. The system could be turned off and the water was then rerouted through an on demand gas water heater. The big water heater was in the laundry room, but there was only a cold water connection for the washer.
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Post# 523536 , Reply# 56   6/9/2011 at 11:59 (4,850 days old) by foraloysius (Leeuwarden, Friesland, the Netherlands)   |   | |
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As far as I remember from my youth, there were quite a few systems for water heating. Many people had a gas tankless water heater over the kitchen sink that was also used to heat the water for the shower. Some other households had a gas tank water heater. My grandmother on my father's side had an electric tank heater. IIRC that was about the second popular way of heating water after the gas tankless heaters. The system we had wasn't very common I think.
I also remember a huge gas tankless water heater in the laundryroom of our neighbours. It didn't serve only a large house but also the sinks in the dental practice of our neighbour. I remember the big "whoop" sound when somewhere in the house a hot water tap was opened. This water heater btw, was having above the Constructa boil washing machine, but no hot water from the water heater was used by that machine. |
Post# 523568 , Reply# 57   6/9/2011 at 14:21 (4,850 days old) by arbilab (Ft Worth TX (Ridglea))   |   | |
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Fascinating. Who knew there were so many ways to produce hot water?
Grandma's house was built circa 1920. The original boiler (for radiators) was coal, later converted to natgas. Not sure I got to see the original water heater. By 1950 it was a gas burner with an open coil over it. Water in the coil convected to an adjacent tank for storage and service. Never saw anything like it before or since. Point-of-use water heat is resurging here, I think because the waste of running the spigot until the hot appears. Even though you may only 'use' a quart of hot water, you drain 2 gallons from the tank heating the pipes. However, I have never heard of a gas P-O-U heater here. And the waste of a central gas system is probably less than the cost of electric POU. For the same amount of heat at US rates I estimate electric twice as expensive as gas. |
Post# 523608 , Reply# 59   6/9/2011 at 17:05 (4,850 days old) by foraloysius (Leeuwarden, Friesland, the Netherlands)   |   | |
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I suddenly remembered something else. At home at a friend of mine they had a very big gas tank water heater. The house was rather big and some taps were rather far away from the water heater. They had a circulation pump installed. The hot water pipes were installed like a ring system and the pipes were insulated. If you opened a tap far away from the water heater you still had hot water instantly.
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Post# 523630 , Reply# 60   6/9/2011 at 19:32 (4,849 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)   |   | |
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Are rather common today especially for uses where taps are far from the water heater.
Laundries, laundromats, apartment buildings/multi-family housing, very large homes,and so forth all have them installed. For one thing it actually saves water as persons do not have to run hot water taps for periods of time to purge the cooled water. |
Post# 523663 , Reply# 61   6/9/2011 at 23:46 (4,849 days old) by arbilab (Ft Worth TX (Ridglea))   |   | |
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Post# 523887 , Reply# 66   6/11/2011 at 09:01 (4,848 days old) by mieleforever (SOUTH AFRICA)   |   | |
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Yes to that Limey, we actually had a parrafin fridze and freezer many many moons ago, I grew up on a farm and there was no electricity for quite a few years. Eventualy my father saved enough money and we could also have electricity. Cheers |
Post# 523992 , Reply# 69   6/11/2011 at 19:19 (4,847 days old) by limey ()   |   | |
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To Maytagbear and mieleforever Thank you. I was not aware they were available in North America and as I said the only one I have ever seen was in S. Africa. |