Thread Number: 35362
ASKO: Meet The 3 hour + 25 minute Dishwasher Cycle
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Post# 528305   7/2/2011 at 15:56 (4,653 days old) by Frigilux (The Minnesota Prairie)        

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Wow! I know dishwasher cycles have grown in length over the past few years, but this ASKO (model D5893XXL) had a normal cycle length of 205 minutes in a recent Consumer Reports test.  Let's hope this doesn't become the 'new normal' for dishwashers---nor the price:  $2,000 

 

It used 7 gallons of water, which is more than my LG uses for a normal cycle.

 

 

 





Post# 528335 , Reply# 1   7/2/2011 at 19:25 (4,653 days old) by mrb627 (Buford, GA)        
Miele

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My Miele takes 2 hr 45 min on the normal cycle. Not sure about water usage, but I paid 2300 for it. I guess I don't care how long it takes as long as it is silent and finished before bedtime.

Malcolm


Post# 528343 , Reply# 2   7/2/2011 at 21:04 (4,653 days old) by pierreandreply4 (St-Bruno de montarville (province of quebec) canada)        
What the????

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My kenmore elite dishwasher on the smart wash cycle takes lest time than these modern machines don;t know the exact time but it minimum 1 hour 49 minutes if i don't count the water heating.

Post# 528344 , Reply# 3   7/2/2011 at 21:21 (4,653 days old) by nmassman44 (Brooksville Florida)        

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My Miele dishwasher cost that much as well. Worth every penny too. I think mine takes about an hour and 45 mins on Normal. It varies by how hot the water is coming into it and soil level. She is running right now in fact as I type this.

Post# 528347 , Reply# 4   7/2/2011 at 21:39 (4,653 days old) by Rolls_rapide (.)        
"It used 7 gallons of water"

Are you sure that it wasn't seven litres?

Post# 528349 , Reply# 5   7/2/2011 at 21:41 (4,653 days old) by peteski50 (New York)        
Time!

peteski50's profile picture
It is abosoltly insane to run that long! My GE Tall Tub runs almost 1 1/2 and that is more than enough time. It is one of the first tall tub models. It does clean well. Even though I usually start it before I go to bed and don't unload until the next day I wouldn't want a machine that runs 2 - 3 hours. I really would rather wash them by hand! And also where is the energy savings with such long running cycles?

Post# 528360 , Reply# 6   7/2/2011 at 22:23 (4,653 days old) by Maytagbear (N.E. Ohio)        
The largest aspect of energy use in a dishwasher

is the heated water, NOT the motor-pump-element, but the heated water.


My GE Nautilus takes about 90 minutes for the longest cycle, which I do not always use. Even if the longest cycle was 4 hours, the sheer wonderfulness of not having to stand at the sink is worth it to me.


Lawrence/Maytagbear


Post# 528367 , Reply# 7   7/3/2011 at 00:05 (4,653 days old) by MattL (Flushing, MI)        

My typical GE cycle is about 55 minutes, speed cycle is 33.  Odds are I could use the speed cycle for most things but prefer the longer wash time.  I paid about $500 for it 5 or 6 years ago and to this day it does a fantastic job.  I'd be hard pressed to even consider paying much over $600-800 for a dishwasher.


Post# 528376 , Reply# 8   7/3/2011 at 03:03 (4,653 days old) by dj-gabriele ()        

Wow, that is way too long.
Three hours for the energy save cycle is way more than enough!

The normal cycle in my machine lasts 72 minutes and it uses 18 litres of water. (made in 2005) AAB class, 12 place settings. The ECO cycle is 140 minutes.
And this is from a BOL machine...

The normal cycle in my parents machine lasts 85 minutes and uses 13 litres of water. (made in 2009) AAA class, 14 place setting. The ECO cycle is 175 minutes.
This machine on the other hand is MOL.

Anyway, I checked the water use on the ASKO page and it says 13,9 litres, it's just under 3,7 gallons! Only a little more than my parents' dishwasher.


Post# 528403 , Reply# 9   7/3/2011 at 08:56 (4,653 days old) by Frigilux (The Minnesota Prairie)        

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The Normal cycle on my LG automatically engages the soil sensor to determine the length/number of water changes for the cycle. Fortunately, it often opts to shorten the cycle, and I never pre-rinse dishes. Only on very rare occasions has it lengthened it.  The cycle time defaults to 2:19, but it's often done between 1:30 and 1:50, even when I add the steam and 160-degree final rinse options.  Most often, it uses 4.5-5.5 gallons of water.  If the load is small or very lightly soiled, it will use 3.5 gallons.

 

I'm guessing the ASKO also defaults to a soil sensor.  The load Consumer Reports uses for their tests is, by their own admission, quite a tough, heavily-soiled load.  The ASKO probably defaults to a longer cycle time with more changes of water.  I checked again, and it states the ASKO used 7 gallons of water for their test cycle.

 

Miele:  Two expensive new Miele dishwashers ranked at the very bottom of the ratings due to extremely poor cleaning results, partially the fault of wash arms that clogged during testing.  CR says that Miele has come up with a 'fix' for the problem.  They will undoubtedly retest the machines soon after they have been fixed.

 


Post# 528419 , Reply# 10   7/3/2011 at 10:02 (4,653 days old) by logixx (Germany)        

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Our Siemens from 2006 takes 2.5 hours on the ECO cycle and roughly 2 hours when using the autoNormal cycle. autoHeavy takes a little longer. It uses around four gallons on most cycles. Using the varioSpeed and Half Load options, I can clean and sanitize a not too heavily soiled load in 65 minutes.

Some dishwashers have a special night cycle of some sort. Whirlpool/Bauknecht has one that produces only 38dB as does the Miele Extra Quiet cycle. This particular cycle on the Miele runs 4:45 hrs.

Bosch/Siemens also have a 38 db dishwasher available but without a dedicated cycle for quietness.

As for conservation: Bosch/Siemens are the best as of now with a series of dishwashers that only consumes 1.7 gal. by recycling clean rinse water to pre-wash the next load. Now, Whirlpool announced a dishwasher that's supposed to only need 1,58 gal. as part of their Green Kitchen project.

Alex


Post# 528585 , Reply# 11   7/4/2011 at 09:26 (4,652 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md)        
LONG DW RUN TIMES

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I will never have a DW that runs more than an hour, has the have dishes pre-rinsed, or that I have to clean messy filters on ever. I also like hearing the sound of water when my machine is running. I had a good customer that got a Miele DW and hated it because it took over two hours and didn't dry worth a darn, she said I want my old KA back and I always loved the sound of water as I thought I was at the ocean. Needless to say the Miele was only around a year or so and the first breakdown she said get me a real DW again and in went a standard tub KM Ultra-Wash machine.

 

I think it is interesting that CRs doesn't say how much electricity these new machines use running 2 or 3 hours. Also keeping a 2x2x3 foot box in your kitchen heated on the inside to around 140 degrees for 2 or 3 hours has to be putting an extra load on your homes AC system. The only benefit I can see in the new machines is water saving but this comes with wasting water rinsing dishes and then cleaning the sink and the stinking filter in the machine.


Post# 528590 , Reply# 12   7/4/2011 at 09:51 (4,652 days old) by jlbrazil (brazil)        

My european Whirlpool usually takes 1:20 for the "normal 6th sense" cycle.. It can vary between 0:50 to 1:50 , and it use between 6 - 15 L.
The "Heavy 6th sesnse" usually takes 2:10 .. It can vary between 1:30 to 2:30 , and it use between 9 - 18L.
BTW , its really quiet to, rated at 44 dBa :)


Post# 528595 , Reply# 13   7/4/2011 at 10:16 (4,652 days old) by mark_wpduet (Lexington KY)        

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My WP tall tub on the pots/pans cycle (longest) high temp wash, no heated dry takes around 90 mins. I recently starting using this cycle because it rinses twice. The normal cycle is like 70 minutes with high temp

Post# 528622 , Reply# 14   7/4/2011 at 12:18 (4,651 days old) by Frigilux (The Minnesota Prairie)        

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John---Like you, I'm not interested in a dishwasher with a manual-clean filter. However, I do like a very quiet dishwasher, as I'm usually working in the kitchen for hours at a time washing successive loads, so I get tired of hearing it. The LG was the quietest machine I could find that still had food grinder/self-cleaning filter (45 db). It's so quiet, I'll occasionally forget it's running and open the door to put something inside.

I don't miss the (relatively) louder operating sounds of my former dishwashers, a Maytag and a Frigidaire. Were I a person who loaded and started the dishwasher, then left the kitchen, the noise level probably wouldn't be as important to me.


Post# 528718 , Reply# 15   7/4/2011 at 19:45 (4,651 days old) by mrb627 (Buford, GA)        
Long Whirlpool

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Wasn't there a Whirlpool with a soak option that would make the cycle over four hours?

Malcolm


Post# 528728 , Reply# 16   7/4/2011 at 22:01 (4,651 days old) by appnut (TX)        
whirlpool Soak

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Yes there was Malcolm, and it's still being marketed.

Post# 528759 , Reply# 17   7/5/2011 at 02:56 (4,651 days old) by tolivac (greenville nc)        

forget it I don't want a dishwasher that takes over two hours to do a load either.TIME is more valueable to me than the electricty or water.I seriously question something like a dishwasher or clothes washer running for that long is REALLY saving energy.Does the machine have a water pump that is as weak as a yard sprinkler-hence the long runtimes?

Post# 528767 , Reply# 18   7/5/2011 at 06:17 (4,651 days old) by lavamat_jon (UK)        
"Long" is a subjective, and interpretive word...

...which is why a lot of manufacturers on this side of the pond now at least offer you either a standard, eco-friendly cycle which will take 1h45-2h45 (depending which cycle you've selected), or with an option button a quicker, slightly less eco-friendly cycle delivering results in anything from 0h50-1h30.

 

The Turbo option on my dishwasher will use "up to 0.3kWh" more according to the programme table in the manual, however still delivers great results in a short cycle.

 

If I put the dishwasher on overnight, I don't bother and let it do it's thing overnight - it's all going to be done in the morning.  However if it's on during the day or evening I will put it on Turbo - by the time I've had a cup of tea and watched Coronation Street and EastEnders of an evening the dishwasher is done...

 

Quietness is major importance to me when it came to choosing dishwashers - ours is rated 44dB, and you only hear a bare trickle, which is all you want in a flat like ours where the kitchen is open plan to the living space.

 

Jon


Post# 528770 , Reply# 19   7/5/2011 at 07:24 (4,651 days old) by danmantn (Tennessee)        

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Yep, my dishwasher is one with 3 hr wash, and 4 hour soak...and must have rinse aid for it to work properly. A pain at busy times.



This post was last edited 07/05/2011 at 10:43
Post# 529261 , Reply# 20   7/7/2011 at 10:50 (4,648 days old) by Tomturbomatic (Beltsville, MD)        

Something manufacturers don't seem to take into consideration is the water cooling in the pipes during these long cycles. I first noticed this insanity in the KDSS 21 and 22 I had. Both filled, then stopped, before circulating any water, to heat the water to spray on cold dishes. While the first wash was happening, the water was cooling in the pipes before the next fill. After the first wash drained, the load was not that warm because the heat from the 140F water was pulled out of it by the room temperature tank and dishes. The next fill was not all that hot because the water had been sitting and cooling in the pipes for some time. This must be terrible in places where the pipes run through the cement slab so that the water cools as soon as it is shut off. All of the delays while the machine is slowly heating water or taking long enough to wash each piece in the load individually means that water is sitting in the pipes cooling. If there is a temperature sensor, it means that you are going to be paying to heat water electrically even if you have a gas water heater and since most, if not all, domestic dishwashers operate on 115 volts, the water heating is very slow. Of course, they are trying to move us away from washing dishes in hot water so it will soon be a moot point.

I remember a Bradford portable dishwasher on display near the cash registers at our Grants. The lid had a big poster standing up touting "3 STAGE WASHING" so I started reading. I thought it might have to do with multiple wash arms or something. No. Apparently, the machine did not have a detergent dispenser so it filled and started washing. The first stage was at some low temperature range where heat sensitive proteins were washed off the dishes. As the heating element kept heating the water, the second stage started at maybe 120-125F and this was where starches were washed off dishes after sitting there patiently and holding their tickets while the proteins were being wisked away. The third stage was around 140F where grease was washed away. Now this had to take a while. I remember the Westinghouse roll outs with the guaranteed 140F wash with timer delay during heating and the cycle could easily take 90 minutes back in the 1950s. I guess washing that long and getting the wash water that hot, they had to clean things. I think it was a late 50s Consumers Research report on dishwashers where they measured the temperature of the water draining out after each phase of the cycle and the water was amazingly low, like 120F or less after the wash in most of the machines. The dishes were hot by the end of the dry cycle, but they were not washed at anywhere near 140F.


Post# 529277 , Reply# 21   7/7/2011 at 12:45 (4,648 days old) by steved (Guilderland, New York)        
Good point Tom

I have a Frigidaire Gallery tall tub (so shoot me lol) that washes really well since I ran a seperate PVC water line direct from the water heater. The water doesn't cool off as fast with the PVC. It seemed to me that every fill cycle only emptied the standing water from the pipe, not drawing it from the tank.
I did this and in addition, I later upgraded the lower wash arm to the three-way one, and the top sprayer to the small wash arm style.


Post# 529301 , Reply# 22   7/7/2011 at 13:42 (4,648 days old) by Frigilux (The Minnesota Prairie)        

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Yes, the water definitely cools in the pipes between water changes on new dishwashers with long cycles. However, remember that many of these machines fill with only a tad over a gallon of water. It heats very quickly. I believe that's true of machines that do alternate rack washing (like my LG and the Frigidaire I had around 2005), at any rate.

The LG heats water very quickly. Choosing the 160 degree final rinse option adds under 10 minutes to the cycle. My previous dishwasher, a TOL Maytag, circa 2007, didn't alternate washing between racks, so there was much more water in the machine to heat. Choosing the Sani Rinse option added about 20 minutes to a cycle.



Post# 529391 , Reply# 23   7/7/2011 at 19:07 (4,648 days old) by appnut (TX)        

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My water runs through pipeis located in the concrete foundation so it cools off fairly quickly, even in the summer. So the Kenmore Elite TT does run a minimum of an hour and 48 minutes, heated dry, on the lightest soil sensing programme.

Post# 529393 , Reply# 24   7/7/2011 at 19:40 (4,648 days old) by bwoods ()        
crappy new machines

I agree with John.

Under no circumstance would I throw money away on some of these
inferior new machines. When entertaining, I often do 2 or 3 loads in one evening to get all the dishes and pots and pans done. I use a GE GSD2800 as the daily driver. Without the dry cycle it's about 45 minutes and most of the time things are spotless with no pre-rinsing. As far as the noise, It's not that loud, it doesn't interfere with conversation in the kitchen and I'm actually kind of proud of having a dishwasher and want people to hear it running.




Post# 529395 , Reply# 25   7/7/2011 at 20:08 (4,648 days old) by Frigilux (The Minnesota Prairie)        

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Let's watch the sweeping generalizations: Not all new dishwashers are "crappy". My LG is by far the best dishwasher I've ever owned. It cleans pots/pans better than any of my previous dishwashers (mid '70s' Kenmore, mid-80's KitchenAid, late 80's Whirlpool, late 80's GE, 90's KitchenAid, early 00 KitchenAid, mid00 Frigidaire, mid 00 Maytag).

The loading flexibility is amazing, and the ultra tall tub allows me to wash tall pots that wouldn't fit in the aforementioned machines.

Yes, the cycle time is longer than vintage machines, but I wash many loads in succession and haven't had problems adjusting to a cycle that's longer than 60 minutes.

It is super-quiet, and is very water and energy efficient. It has a steam feature and 160 degree final rinse options. I wouldn't trade it for any other dishwasher, vintage or new.

It is not a crappy dishwasher.


Post# 529398 , Reply# 26   7/7/2011 at 20:52 (4,648 days old) by bwoods ()        
crappy new dishwashers

No one said ALL new dishwashers are "crappy". You will not see the word "all" or any sweeping generalizations in my post if you go back and re-read.

I am speaking of the ones that are "crappy" I never once said all were.

What composes a crappy dishwasher(in my opinion).

One that takes 3 hours to do a load that can be done in 45 minutes by a competent machine.

One that cannot dispose of food wastes and requires pre-rinsing or extensive scraping. In my opinion any machine that uses a non-self cleaning filter is an inferior machine. If dishes are not rinsed or meticulously scraped then food wastes collect in the filter and every drop of wash and rinse water is being filtered through garbage.

If someone wants to pay $1000+ for a machine that washes nnd rinses your dishes in garbage water can go ahead and do it.

Any machine that cannot dispose of normal solid food waste residue is not a dishwasher but just a machine that splashes water on dishes.



Post# 529444 , Reply# 27   7/8/2011 at 05:56 (4,648 days old) by Frigilux (The Minnesota Prairie)        

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You are most correct; my apologies! I missed the word 'some' in your post, Barry. And there are certainly some poor performers on the current market, just as there were poor performers in the 1950's, 1960's, 1970's...



Post# 529454 , Reply# 28   7/8/2011 at 08:13 (4,648 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md)        
HEATING WATER IN NEW DWs

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Yes there is about 1/2 as much water to heat but the heater elements have been reduced in wattage in most cases to 400 or 500 hundred watts at best. There is just no reason to have a DW running more than an hour. Having a hot machine in the kitchen that long only increases your air-conditioning costs and I am sure that is not taken into account in the energy stickers.

 

Eugene it is always good to hear that people are enjoying thier appliances and getting good use out of them. This is what my whole professional life has been devoted to and based on your recommendation I will take a second look at LG DWs. Both LG and Samung major appliances got off to such a bad start in this country, much like the first Hyundai automobiles did, but I always figured that they might get better in time. I see the LG DWs on the scrap pile almost every week and it is basically a copy of the WP KA tall tub machines. I will have to pick up a few of them some time and take them back to the shop and see what makes them tick, but I am sure that I would never put one in my kitchen. I have already had a TOL KA TT machine and a TL GE TT DW and just bending down the extra 2" to load the lower rack was enough to kill the design for me.

 

There is just no reason what so ever that dishwashers need to take so long. It could actually use less energy and water to put a decent sized pump in and a 240 volt heater and get the job done in less than 30 minutes. Commercial machines have been doing this for years and they kill far more germs in the process. I feel that overall most new appliances have improved but some where along the way dishwashers have evolved in the wrong direction.


Post# 529477 , Reply# 29   7/8/2011 at 11:00 (4,647 days old) by Frigilux (The Minnesota Prairie)        

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John-- A caveat about LG dishwashers: Their frequency of repair rate is very high according to Consumer Reports. They are the least reliable of all the brands for which they have enough repair data from their readership. Their current TOL steam model (pretty much the same model I have) scores an 80 (only one Bosch model scored higher, at 81), so they do their job well.

The dishwasher in my house gets very heavy use day in and day out. The LG is almost three years old and so far, no problems; but at Consumer Reports, 23% of the people who responded to the questionnaire and have LG dishwashers, have had to have them repaired. That statistic does not exactly inspire confidence.

LG washing machines used to have a poor reliability record, but they have recently improved to where they are now listed as the most reliable. Hopefully LG will be able to make similar strides with their dishwashers.

The least repair-prone dishwasher brand on CR's list? Whirlpool, at only 8% needing repairs.


Post# 529505 , Reply# 30   7/8/2011 at 13:41 (4,647 days old) by joe_in_philly (Philadelphia, PA, USA)        

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My 6 year old, middle of the line Bosch does an excellent job. The regular cycle gets dishes that have not been pre-rinsed completely clean, even if they have been sitting for days.  It does have a manual clean filter, but the only things I have found in it are toothpicks and twist ties - things that must have snuck into the dishwasher stuck on the bottom of something. I only need to check it a few times a year. I wouldn't let a manual clean filter scare you away from a dishwasher. I like that the Bosch heats the wash and rinse water to a set temp, which is probably why I get such consistent results. In the summer, a regular cycle takes around 99 minutes, and in the winter about 10 minutes longer.


Post# 529515 , Reply# 31   7/8/2011 at 15:20 (4,647 days old) by PassatDoc (Orange County, California)        
my 2001 Bosch....

...does not have a sensor to reduce wash time. Normal cycle runs about 1:50. PowerScrubPlus cycle runs about 2:15. Normal cycle suffices for all but the most heavily encrusted loads, and rinsing is never required (only scraping is needed). Results are superior as long as proper cycle is selected. There is also a Quick Wash 0:30 cycle, which is ok for very lightly soiled loads (example: having people over for coffee and cookies) but not enough for baked on residue or dried food on dishes.

Post# 529600 , Reply# 32   7/9/2011 at 00:17 (4,647 days old) by Toggleswitch (New York City, NY)        

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To work aroudn water in the pipes cooling, there is much to be said to puting a small electric hot-water heater under the sink say of a two gallons (7.56 +/- litres) capacity to produce hot water for the DW.

Nothing wrong with a wall or cabinet switch to shut it off when DW is not being used.


CLICK HERE TO GO TO Toggleswitch's LINK


Post# 529615 , Reply# 33   7/9/2011 at 02:20 (4,647 days old) by foraloysius (Leeuwarden, Friesland, the Netherlands)        

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I don't know about American dishwashers, but modern European dishwashers are very well insulated. Even my 15 year old freestanding AEG hardly heats up on the outside. It's a bit warmer than room temperature at best.

Post# 529638 , Reply# 34   7/9/2011 at 07:10 (4,647 days old) by matthewza (Cape Town, South Africa)        
LG

our LG takes 2 hr 25 min on eco (we dont use that cycle often), 34 min on quick (we use that quite alot) but most of the time we use the auto cycle that uses all its sensors to determine the perfect cycle time and its always different and includes 30 mins for drying. the eco cycle also has a 30 min dry time but no dry on the quick

Post# 529645 , Reply# 35   7/9/2011 at 08:43 (4,647 days old) by bwoods ()        
long cycles and etching

Have any of you, with the newer machines and soft water, experienced etching of glassware due to the extended cycles of some of these machines?

From what I understand, a DW detergent's propensity to pull metal ions (etching) out of glasses increases with time and temperature (but does not readily occur in harder water). With some of these machines recirculating wash water for an hour and a half + over dishes, would seem to increase the etching or cloudiness of glasses that occurs over time.

In a related aside, did any of you notice that Consumer Reports last test of DW detergents did not include etching tendancies of DW detergents. This was strange as this was always one of their primary concerns and an important rating factor in the past.

I found Quantum to be the worst for etching glasses from my experience. Never had a problem with Cascade Complete packets, though. When I lived in Ohio I had softened water (0 grains hardness).

Now that I moved to Tennessee I have mildly hard water (approx. 10 grains) and have no etching with any detergents (so far).

In a softwater situation, I just can't imagine the etching that must be occuring to glassware in some of these machines with long cycles.


Post# 529690 , Reply# 36   7/9/2011 at 15:29 (4,646 days old) by logixx (Germany)        

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I haven't found etching to be a particular problem in our Bosch with softener. Of course, too much detergent or washing delicate glasses on the 167F cycle won't do them any favor...

Post# 529707 , Reply# 37   7/9/2011 at 17:15 (4,646 days old) by PassatDoc (Orange County, California)        

My Bosch DW is not hot to the touch (has a white metal panel----no wood panel to match cabinets) but is noticeably warm. It is so quiet that sometimes the only way to know it's running is to touch the front door panel. If PowerScrubPlus cycle (160 F or 80 C final rinse) is used, the DW also heats the countertop above it (slightly warm) a bit.

 

Bosch DWs vary in the amount of insulation used, mainly in an effort to reduce noise rather than heat transfer. I have a base model that runs at 52 decibels which is sufficiently quiet to me. Some of the high end models run  at about 43-45 decibels. Decibels use a logarithmic scale, and 10 raised to the 0.7 power (52-45=7) is about 5.0, so if those decibel ratings are accurate, the lower end models are five times noisier than the high end models.....but the noise level on my DW is so much lower than the GE it replaced that I barely notice it. 

 

I would imagine that the extra insulation around the sides of the higher end DW would also impede heat transfer, but I don't know if door construction is upgraded in the high end models so as to impede heat. Bosch DWs in the USA are made at a US plant, supposedly to German specifications. It's possible that the design is dumbed down for American consumers who are so impressed with the machine's overall performance that they don't notice minor issues like heat transfer through a door due to less insulation than in Europe.


Post# 529783 , Reply# 38   7/10/2011 at 13:15 (4,645 days old) by brastemp (Brazil)        

In general my Brastemp (whirpool) Sixth Sense spends 1:30h to complete the normal cycle (45-55cº).

Post# 529863 , Reply# 39   7/10/2011 at 19:46 (4,645 days old) by appnut (TX)        

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My Kenmore Elite TT just did a china/Gentle cycle with low-energy/extra light soil sensed and incoming water temp at 140 (rare at my house and am doing whites/towels/sheets laundry) in 1:24, including heated dry. It didn't drain the pre-wash and main waash was only 20 minutes long, usually it's about 30 to 33 with my typical water temp of the water heater set at 120. Without heated dry, the time would have been about 55 minutes.

Post# 529941 , Reply# 40   7/11/2011 at 05:46 (4,645 days old) by Frigilux (The Minnesota Prairie)        

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Barry---I tend to have a heavy hand with dishwasher detergent, as many of my loads contain at least a couple of pots/pans in them.

I did notice my inexpensive restaurant-style glassware seemed to be getting etched faster, so I countered that by setting my dishwasher to use full-power spray in the bottom rack, and gentle spray for the top rack when glassware is aboard. That seems to have nipped the problem in the bud.

I can't imagine etching would be a problem---even with a longer 'normal' cycle---if I used the tiny amount of detergent recommended for soft water in my owner's manual.


Post# 529945 , Reply# 41   7/11/2011 at 06:21 (4,645 days old) by mrb627 (Buford, GA)        
Detergent

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I used to measure out the powdered detergent at 1.5 tablespoons per load with a half tablespoon in the prewash compartment in the program chosen utilized it.  That was until the measuring shotglass rolled out of the cabinet under the sink, fell the 3.5 inches to the floor and shattered into a thousand micro-pieces.

 

Now I just pour a guess and go.

 

Malcolm


Post# 529958 , Reply# 42   7/11/2011 at 08:00 (4,645 days old) by bwoods ()        

I used to be a little heavy handed, too, when I used powders and sometimes Cascade Complete liguid, Eugene. Most times now I just use tablets or packets.

That's the bad thing about them, you have no control over the amount. It does seem as if the cheaper glasses do etch faster. I don't own any leaded crystal, but my mom did and she never had an etching problem with it in the dishwasher and that was with softened water. I guess that finer glassware must have a higher content of metallic ions in the matrix.

That's cool that you can adjust the water pressure in the lower and upper racks independently!


Post# 529974 , Reply# 43   7/11/2011 at 11:16 (4,644 days old) by joe_in_philly (Philadelphia, PA, USA)        

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I can't believe how "cool" the wash temps are on new dishwashers. This higher end kitchenaid wash temp is 104F (40C)!  The high temp wash option raises the wash temp to a tepid 120F(49C). The Sani Rinse option raises the wash temp to 130F(54C), and the Final Rinse from 140F(60C) to 155F(68C).

 

So does washing for an extended period of time at 104F clean off things like grease, cheese, and starches? My Bosch Regular cycle washes at 140F, and the Power Scrub cycle at 160F - with a heated pre-rinse. The rinses are 156F.

 

See pages 8 and 9 of the manual:



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Post# 530625 , Reply# 44   7/14/2011 at 13:43 (4,641 days old) by logixx (Germany)        
I read that, too.

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Yes, they wash in pretty cool water! 120F for a High Temp wash. Our Bosch normally washes at 131 to 149F on the autoRegular cycle or 149 to 167F on autoHeavy, each time with a 104F pre-wash. ECO cycle washes at 120F with a cold pre-rinse. Final rinse is always at 158F. I think US manufacturers are trying to take this energy-efficiency a little too far in some cases.

Post# 530743 , Reply# 45   7/15/2011 at 00:12 (4,641 days old) by tolivac (greenville nc)        

With all of this thought on 3 hr dishwashers--hell I will just wash the dishes by hand and save some time.At that point would not mind it.And I can't keep really dirty dishes in my dishwasher---the ants,roaches come marching in!that ATTRACTS the critters.If the load is that "foody" should be done right away so the critters don't get attracted to it.-Or washed by hand.There is a LOT of critters in my area.

Post# 530957 , Reply# 46   7/16/2011 at 14:33 (4,639 days old) by jerrod6 (Southeastern Pennsylvania)        

I don't know about the current Miele models but the Normal cycle on my 2006 USA G2830  Laperla disables all the the sensors, soil and load size and the machine just follows a basic program, so it will wash one clean plate for 2 hours at a low temperature  if you put it in there. So  Normal on this  machine is not the cycle I ever use as there are better, shorter, and more water saving ones on it. 


Post# 531204 , Reply# 47   7/17/2011 at 16:30 (4,638 days old) by norgeway (mocksville n c )        
Just!

Throw out the new and get a old Hobart built Kitchen Aid, preferably a KDS 15 -17, single wash arm, it will blast off burned on gunk from baking pans....in about 45 minutes! with about 12 gallons of water, to me water is cheaper than electricity!!

Post# 531291 , Reply# 48   7/18/2011 at 00:18 (4,638 days old) by earthling177 (Boston, MA)        

Hans: yes, water is cheaper than electricity, but hot water costs a bunch, even if it's not heated by electricity. And yes, I can afford to pay for the water and for making the water hot. The problem is that with more and more people needing water, sewage treatment plants, electricity, gas, fuel oil etc, no one (including me) wants any those utilities in their backyard/neighborhood, because despite the fact that having utilities increases the value of one's home(s), being too close to them devalues the homes. I'm often tempted when people say stuff like "high efficiency stuff don't make sense/pay for themselves" to tell them "thank you!, we've been trying to find places to put another utility building and we're so glad you don't mind them in your backyard"... but I can't keep a straight face (Toggles, sshh!!!) ;-)

Suppose keeping the "heated dry" on when I use my dishwasher increased my energy costs to one dollar per year, I don't care if it's more or less than that, just let's suppose that. If 30 million homes do that, it'll be 30 million dollars per year just to dry dishes. In the case one needs the dishes right away, it makes sense to turn it on for that cycle, but if you'll be dealing with the unloading the machine a couple of hours later (or, more commonly 8 hours later), it won't make any difference and we could all have used that money for something else -- schools, retirement, not having pollution around our homes. And that's small stuff compared to so much stuff we waste, as opposed to use. I'm the first person to turn on the A/C when I'm home, but I'm then using it instead of wasting it like so many business buildings that run the A/C 24/7 instead of modulating for when more people are there and need it. Or the buildings that keep all lights on all night with no one but security inside. WTF?

My point is, just because I can afford to waste it doesn't mean it's in my best interest to waste or that I should make people who can't afford to move get stuck with annoying utility plants in their neighborhood so I can waste. Using, yes sure, wasting it's kinda dumb, it will come back to bite us in the butt sooner or later.

Just in case it's not clear, I'm with you on the cleaning part -- any dishwasher I want to buy needs to be very good at cleaning (there are no perfect machines at that, no matter how much people insist there are). But I've used machines that were miserly with water and took about one hour per cycle, and machines that used lots of water and time and didn't clean as well. The engineering is important here, not how much time/water it uses.

Also, there are machines that take 2 hours or so to finish the cycle and are a joy to use -- particularly during Thanksgiving, you can start the machine as things go, and they clean so well and are so quiet that even the guests don't notice you are running the d/w while you cook and/or the guests are right there. You finish much sooner than if you had a machine that ran just 30 minutes per cycle but didn't clean well, so now you need to do pots and pans by hand or rewash them before and/or after they are run thru the d/w. And then there are the machines that are so loud that you need to wait for every guest to leave and now you're running 3-4 cycles in the evening, even if the cycles lasted just 20-30 minutes each, it'd be annoying both in all the work and the mess accumulating during the day robbing you of room in the kitchen, but also all that noise. Yuck, thank you but no thanks.


Post# 531292 , Reply# 49   7/18/2011 at 00:22 (4,638 days old) by earthling177 (Boston, MA)        

Jerrod, my impression is that lots of machines with sensors in them turn off the sensors when too little dirt is sensed, so they can run a cleaning cycle with those "dishwasher cleaning" products. I've also noticed that some brands of dishwashers run such a short cycle when dishes are pre-rinsed or not dirty enough that stuff is still left behind but when one loads them up with a large and/or very dirty load with stuck-on food it all comes out very clean. It's a bit weird to me. Maybe it's a bug?

Post# 532582 , Reply# 50   7/24/2011 at 13:44 (4,631 days old) by PeterH770 (Marietta, GA)        

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New Energy Star standards say that cycles will get even longer in January...



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Post# 532584 , Reply# 51   7/24/2011 at 14:00 (4,631 days old) by pierreandreply4 (St-Bruno de montarville (province of quebec) canada)        
so if i understand this correcly

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so if i understand this correcly that means that kenmore dishwashers that have the he smart wash cycle will last longer so in other words if my aunts plans on buying a new dishwasher for my grandmother then this would be a good time to buy then?

Post# 532874 , Reply# 52   7/26/2011 at 02:30 (4,630 days old) by tolivac (greenville nc)        

Sigh--with all of these dishwashers that take even LONGER to do dishes-at this stage won't mind if a power plant or water plant is built near my house(Come to think of it a small water pumping-processing plant and tower is not far from my place)I will still stick with that these newer machines aren't worth it-as some others point out-they will be in the dump before their payback time-could take YEARS!!Will the machine last that long?and the HIGH purchase prices-will look for dishwashers at the swap shop, thank you.for power plants these are usually located by a large body of water and a large RR siding-for cooling and transport of fuel and gen-turbine parts-some of those are too big and heavy to ship by truck.

Post# 532946 , Reply# 53   7/26/2011 at 15:19 (4,629 days old) by jerrod6 (Southeastern Pennsylvania)        

My 2006 Dw can do loads using 4 gallons of water and complete the load in under 2 hours but perhaps not when using 294kwh,but I am getting a bit sick of this Energy Star mess especially since it is the manufactures that are getting tax breaks by complying.  Doesn't matter about the public, performance or flexibility just all about them and profits.  At some point Energy Star needs to be put out to pasture.

 

 

 

 


Post# 532947 , Reply# 54   7/26/2011 at 15:21 (4,629 days old) by nmassman44 (Brooksville Florida)        

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One thing I did recently in fact was reprogram my Miele LaPerla dishwasher. If one has such a machine like moi here is what you do...with the machine off touch the clear button then turn the power on pad. Touch the clear button 5 times and hold it on the 5th time until you see the Technical screen pop up. From there one can adjust water usage as in Water Plus it will add 16 oz more water per fill if you select increase. Then one can adjust water temp in the wash and rinse cycles. Also shorten cycles if you need to. Then you can change country settings. Talk about wild I changed it to Austrailia and the cycles were very different, SEU meaning Southern Europe changes parameters as well. I went back to USA setting and I lost the soak setting for the Normal cycle.
Now to keep the settings hit power pad to turn off.
To get into the service area hold the clear pad again with the machine off and touch the power pad on. now release the clear pad and touch it 3 times and hold it on the 3rd time and that will get you into the Service settings. You can see how many hours your dishwasher has logged in so far. Mine is at 3150 hours. Plus it will also show you faults. Very awesome machine! Oh and before I forget...you can add another rinse cycle to each cycle.


Post# 532959 , Reply# 55   7/26/2011 at 16:28 (4,629 days old) by mrb627 (Buford, GA)        
Excella

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I wonder if this procedure will work on my Excella machine.

Malcolm


Post# 532971 , Reply# 56   7/26/2011 at 16:52 (4,629 days old) by nmassman44 (Brooksville Florida)        

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You know it might....

Post# 532978 , Reply# 57   7/26/2011 at 17:05 (4,629 days old) by Rolls_rapide (.)        
Dishwashers giving off excess heat

I have often wondered why the manufacturers don't make their appliances more heat efficient - by encasing the external surfaces of the wash tank in polystyrene-type fireproof insulation - like the copper cylinders used for hot water storage.

This would keep the heat in, thus reducing electricity consumption. It would also keep the kitchen cool. And reduce noise even further.

The heat exchanger/water matrix could have a specially moulded polystyrene side cover to keep the water at maximum temperature.

The circulation pump could also have a heat exchanger sleeve, to capture the heat given off by the main motor.

I don't know why manufacturers don't think of such things.


Post# 533028 , Reply# 58   7/26/2011 at 17:47 (4,629 days old) by PeterH770 (Marietta, GA)        

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I wonder if the extended wash time will lead to more severe etching...


Post# 533841 , Reply# 59   7/30/2011 at 20:49 (4,625 days old) by bwoods ()        
energy star

Energy Star ratings, I don't think, really look at the whole picture.

Once again let's look at the rinsing before washing issue. Take a pre-tall tub Whirlpool that could gobble up just about anything you put in it, versus one of today's, poor excuse for a dishwasher, machines without a built-in food waste disposer.

The water required to rinse off dishes and grind the waste in the disposer is probably several times the water used by the dishwasher itself.

The government Energy Star evaluators, as well as Consumer Reports seem to be totally blind to this fact. As I have said before, in my opinion a dishwasher that cannot dispose of food waste is not a dishwasher, but only a machine that splashes water on dishes.

It seems to me that the Energy Star ratings given to machines without a built-in disposer are somewhat inaccurate and are not looking at the big picture. They give the impression that these filtered machines are performing on par, energy wise, with those that have built in food waste disposal systems.

Does anyone agree with me on this??

As mentioned my daily driver is a GE GSD2800. It disposes of noodles, peas, lettuce, baked beans, etc. No it can't handle bones, are very large pieces of waste, but 90 percent + of the time, I don't have to rinse anything. That's a big savings on water for rinsing and for water and electricity for the garbage disposal.

While we are on the discussion of rinsing, are any one you concerned about some of the machines that only have one final rinse and sometimes a small purge before the final rinse.

I worry about the chemical residue left on the dishes, from the detergents with only one rinse.

The GSD2800 has two final rinses, my other tower wash GE's have three final rinses. Even with the 2800 I sometimes notice a little detergent aroma left on the dishes, on the other GE's with the three rinses, rarely.

Do any of you who have a machine with a single final rinse have any noticeable detergent residue or odor from the detergents. Just curious. (Of course, if you use rinse-agent, which I do not, this would probably be what you are noticing.)

If there is an odor, then yes, that would seem to be an indicator of chemical residue remaining on the dishes.


Post# 533845 , Reply# 60   7/30/2011 at 21:23 (4,625 days old) by joe_in_philly (Philadelphia, PA, USA)        

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You don't have to pre-rinse when using a dishwasher without a food grinder. The filters collect the food particles during the wash so they are not recirculated, and flushes them down the drain. I do not pre-rinse, and my filter only needs to have items like twist ties and toothpicks removed. I only need to check it a couple times a year. I find the dishwashers without a food grinder clean better, as I never find little grains of food on the upturned bottom of mugs or other items that hold water, something I would find occassionally with dishwashers with a grinder.

Post# 533949 , Reply# 61   7/31/2011 at 09:32 (4,625 days old) by bwoods ()        
filter vs.disposal

Hi Joe.

Yes, I saw that in your earlier posts. And that's great. If your machine can handle noodles, leftover vegetables and other garbage then you have a real machine there!

Consume Reports mentioned a lot of the filter-only machines collect food and the filter has to be removed and washed by hand. For those machines,I give them a thumbs down. And, as I mentioned before, every drop of wash and rinse watar is being filtered through garbage and just the thought of eating off dishes washed in garbage water disgusts me.

The new GE tower wash machines have a full-time filter as well as a hard food waste disposer. So you get the best of both worlds. I can put most dishes in the machine directly from the table with minimal or no scraping and all the garbage is gobbled up and the filtering systems prevents any redeposition.

In the older GE 2800, if a glass gets turned upside down, yes, there can be food particles in it as the filtration is not 100%. But normally, no there is no deposisiton.

The older Maytag Reverse rack systems were also a good performer in the no deposition arena. They are almost as good as the older Whirlpools in eating up tons of garbage and with the 100% full-time micromesh filter, I don't ever get those pesky little bits of food particles in the bottoms of glasses or stemware.


Post# 533979 , Reply# 62   7/31/2011 at 11:23 (4,624 days old) by nmassman44 (Brooksville Florida)        

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I dont agree with CU at all. With my Miele I dont pre-rinse but I am sensible about what I put into the machine. The filter top is cleaned by a jet under the lower arm. The cone filter area normally is clean when I check it. And I only check it when the machine tells me to and thats every 40 cycles. I have it set that way in the computer. I wouldnt give a machine a pass over if it didnt have a self clean filter. I would pass over one if it didnt have a filter and just washed in dirty water ala a D&M machine of the past. The GE system that had the filter in the back and the MultiOrbit wash arm did a fantastic job at washing. And even though it wasnt a 100% filtration system I was amazed at how well it could clean. I also loved the upper SuperRack. That rack could hold a ton of dishes and glasses.

Post# 534026 , Reply# 63   7/31/2011 at 13:04 (4,624 days old) by bwoods ()        
GE multi-orbit

I agree, Mike. The GE's with the tower wash, filter in the back and multi-orbit wash arm just about hit the peak of dishwasher design.

Ihavae man dishwashsers, but the GSD 2800 with the above features is the machine I always come back to as my daily driver...for the very reasons you mentioned.

There is no perfect machine, unfortunately, all have their own unique advantages and disadvantages.

Noise is one thing that surprises me. People spend a lot of money to have a machine that is near silent. Why???

I remember when my mom first got a dishwasher in the mid-sixties. dishwashers had certainly been around for a long time, by that point, but were still not overly common. We were talking about the noise and my mom said she liked the noise as it let people know she had dishwasher and she was proud of it!

I find the sound of the GE tower wash to be familiar, comforting and soothing. Like a pot belly stove on a cold winter's day. HEHE

It's not that loud. You can have friends in the kitchen standing right next to and it doesn't interfere with conversation in any way. I often times turn it on at night right before I go to bed and I can hear the familiar whish-wash down the hall. Its soothing, calming and rhythmic and helps me to fall asleep.


Post# 534038 , Reply# 64   7/31/2011 at 13:22 (4,624 days old) by nmassman44 (Brooksville Florida)        

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The GE dishwasher design with the tower has a cool sound that I love...I love when the jets from the tower hits the door and the swooshing sound it makes. My Miele is silent or mostly silent. The only time I hear it is when its draining and the wash pump is activating to wash the dishes. Then there is that little tick sound from the control when the wash arms are switching. The dishwasher also has an alert beep in case something goes wrong. It also lets me know if a wash arm is blocked. I love that feature. There isnt much of anything that I dont like with my Miele. I think its the perfect dishwasher.


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