Thread Number: 3699
The business end of the agitator 		[Down to Last]

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Post# 90053   10/21/2005 at 23:20 (6,754 days old) by cybrvanr ()        

It's regarded that most of the action of a typical straight-vane agitator occurs on the sides of the agitator where the vanes can push the water horizontally. After closer observation however, it appears that most of the action actually occurs off of the bottom of the agitator, where the vanes are vertical, and push the water up. Am I correct on this assumption?




Post# 90072 , Reply# 1   10/22/2005 at 04:28 (6,754 days old) by agiflow ()        

Tub design and agitator make a big difference in how well clothes will circulate. As far as straight vanes go...isn't WP's super surgilator basically a staight vane?

From personal observation, i think a well designd straight vane is the best for heavier loads as far as circulation goes.

Post# 90083 , Reply# 2   10/22/2005 at 06:25 (6,754 days old) by toggleswitch (New York City, NY)        

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I believe the bottom of an agitator is the "power-house".
The dual-action "corkscrew" models appear to be an attempt to increase rollover to get the clothing to the bottom of the basket/agitator to be near the main water action.


Sadly many mannys shortend the stroke and increased the speed to make the TOP portion of a dual-action agitator look like it is moving constantly. IMHO--I much prefer 210* and a slower speed. Interestingly the NorgeTag appears to have a nice old-fashioned slow-wide oscillaiton, as I saw on Ross' "real" machine in Tucson, AZ.

Post# 90259 , Reply# 3   10/23/2005 at 09:58 (6,753 days old) by stevezasycho ()        
Straight Vane is for the birds..

 I have an Inglis (Which here in the US is WPs Entry level washer.. Like.. SUB-Roper, lol)

It has a straight vane agitator, and it is purty ineffective, in my opinion.. It doesnt do too terribly much except splash a lot on small loads, and doesnt doo much for rolling things over on any load size..

Months back, I wanted to switch the DA from the Kenmore this thing replaced, but the Kenmore has a Super capacity, and my Inglis is XL.. I am still lookin for a DD DA that will fit in a 2.5 XL cap. washer, lol

Post# 90277 , Reply# 4   10/23/2005 at 11:47 (6,753 days old) by coldspot66 (Plymouth, Mass)        

Dual action agitators are available for the extra large tub. Part # is 285558. Rollover is much better. The bottom vanes of the agitator are higher up and not at the very bottom of the tub.Hope this helps!

Post# 90433 , Reply# 5   10/24/2005 at 09:53 (6,752 days old) by designgeek ()        

The action of the bottom vanes on an agitator is similar to that of the impeller in a centrifugal pump, i.e. to fling water outward and away from the center. In a washer drum the outward movement of water at the bottom is deflected upward by the walls of the drum; this causes a toroidal water current, where the vertical center-post of the agitator pokes through the "hole" in the toroid. The toroidal current is what produces the turnover action of the load.

And since the water movement is most vigorous at the bottom, that's where the most vigorous washing action occurs. Fabric passing over the moving vanes gets a bit of a scrubbing action as well, though in excess this produces wear on the fabric. The vanes down the center-post are basically there to direct the inward flow of the toroidal current back downward, and also to provide some additional lateral water movement throughout the load.

Some manufacturers use spiral blades or separate accessories on the agitators, for example a corkscrew that has a ratchet mechanism so it only moves in the "downward" direction every half-cycle. These variations can help to increase load capacity and improve turnover. Some people swear by them, others think they're unnecessary.

Every manufacturer claims that its particular arrangement is the most effective, and in fact all of those claims are probably true for specific load sizes and compositions. You can get good results with any machine by learning, through experience, what are its optimal load characteristics.

Post# 90572 , Reply# 6   10/25/2005 at 01:44 (6,751 days old) by cleanteamofny ((Monroe, New York)        
I agree with designgeek!

 cleanteamofny's profile picture
Most agitators with blades going from the top of the agitator to the skirt provides the best washing action because the clothes are gently being scrubbed at the top until it gets to the bottom where the actual washing occurs.

Since I seen what a Kenmore three vane agitator can do, it cleans well because its about three inches high at the end off the skirt. But the Whirlpool has more power because it has waves in the blade leading from the top to the bottom causing massive water currents that has different points of suction during agitation!

When Whirlpool introduced the Double Duty Surgilator, I was very disappointed in the design because the wings was mounted in the wrong spot, the wings should have been mounted dead center on the blade than in between the blade. The rollover rate would have increased 10% more since the water being deflected off the blade before it had a chance to bounce off the basket!

If you have a belt drive washer, place your hand in the washer during the wash cycle and feel the water current, though you feel the water current strength between the blade, but the power of the currents is where the agitation begins and end at each stroke. This is why I was disappointed in the Double Duty Surgilator's design!

The Maytag agitator is unique, the flex fins does three thing that a standard agitator could not do. The blades flexes so the clothes are washed without being over scrubbed, the lint filter in the agitator provides more water through the clothes action and drag on the agitator is reduced because the blade is not mounted on the skirt causing extra wear on the transmission and motor. (This the reason Kenmore copied the fins on the DAA)

I can go on and on but my time is up!
So who's next to stand on the soap box?

Post# 90579 , Reply# 7   10/25/2005 at 04:06 (6,751 days old) by kenmore1978 ()        
OK

 So woul these theories apply to the skirtless KM RotoFlex agitator of the 60's?

Post# 90607 , Reply# 8   10/25/2005 at 08:58 (6,751 days old) by designgeek ()        


Thanks, Cleanteam!

I'm also thinking that there is an interaction between the variables of a) washtub diameter, b) blade depth at the outer edge of the agitator skirt, and c) speed of movement of the agitator as it rotates. Above a certain point, increased blade depth and speed would cause "cavitation," the introduction of air into the water flow; this could help or hinder washing action, I don't know for sure. Also the deeper the fins, all other variables equal, the more energy needed to turn the agitator, *but* beyond a certain point the added energy input doesn't translate to increased cleaning performance.

And then (one more variable?!), there's a point at which the speed of the agitator produces a water flow that's "resonant" with the size of the washtub, i.e. maximizes the toroidal current (and an increase in power input beyond that won't make much difference). All other factors equal, stiff garments might not wash as well in a water current that's "too fast," because they move more slowly and wouldn't have time to follow the flow (this may be why I've tended to prefer using the "gentle" cycle even on conventional TLs).

Kenmore, for those of us with less working expertise in vintage machines, could you post a link or say where we can find pics of that RotoFlex? I'm always interested in data that contradict my hypotheses, that's where new knowledge comes from.


Post# 90630 , Reply# 9   10/25/2005 at 11:24 (6,751 days old) by frigilux (The Minnesota Prairie)        

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I thought someone here posted a turquoise-colored LK pair that had the skirtless/vanes-only RotoFlex. Don't have time to search for it as I'm at work. Hope this helps you at least a bit, designgeek.

Post# 90826 , Reply# 10   10/26/2005 at 16:51 (6,750 days old) by cleanteamofny ((Monroe, New York)        

cleanteamofny's profile picture
Juane,

I believe that it does.
I think that it would have a little more power than the Maytag's powerfin since two more blades are added to the equation,
but too much can be a bad thing! If the load is large it can bottleneck and it would not circulate well especially when the water level is set on extra high doing jeans or towels. Most people will try to do more in one load than to break the load in two and do them separately.

Post# 90836 , Reply# 11   10/26/2005 at 18:18 (6,750 days old) by westytoploader ()        

The agitator's upward currents are a result of the horizontal currents, IMHO...you can feel the strong horizontal currents on the '82 with the Roto-Swirl, especially on 68 OPM! The "vertical" action (such as turnover) takes place with the curved ramps which help pull the clothes downward, but the base vanes are straight. On the GE, which, unlike the Roto-Swirl, has curved base vanes, it is stronger and faster due to the aggressive 100 OPM high speed. With the rapidly moving (330 on the Unimatic--Rollermatic; 360 on the 1-18) pulsator of the Frigidaire, you can feel the strongest horizontal currents.

I believe that there are two things needed for good turnover. You need a method of pulling the clothes down to the base (where the REAL action happens) of the agitator, and a way of bringing them back up again. The horizontal currents made by the agitator could be deflected upward off the sides of the tub, which results in the clothes coming back up to the top, especially on a Frigidaire, IMHO. That's why when a Frigidaire starts agitating, you can see the currents forming near the sides of the tub before the load is pulled down and starts rolling. With an indexing tub, the reason there isn't usually much turnover is because the push and pull currents aren't strong enough. The tub is constantly moving so theoretically there's nothing to "bounce off of"...add a weak agitator to the mix and there's no upward or downward movement. With the Westinghouse spiral ramp agitator, the currents it produces are strong enough to pull the clothes down and bring them back up, even with the indexing tub. Someone will definitely correct me on this, but I also believe that on the solid-tub Norges, there's not much turnover on a full load (however, on a light load, I learned that they will turn over quite well) because the stroke is too long and slow to produce strong currents to get a full load moving...instead it cleans by the dragging action; not one article will remain untouched. I know the design of the agitator (WIDE base) also has something to do with this. Same with the solid-tub SQs...they will roll the clothes when lightly loaded, but not on a "capacity" load. But the agitator moves fast, has large vanes, and the base isn't too terribly wide. So how could this be explained?

Very interesting topic...would like to hear more!

--Austin

Post# 90844 , Reply# 12   10/26/2005 at 19:15 (6,749 days old) by dadoes (TX, U.S. of A.)        

dadoes's profile picture
F&P agitation is interesting in that there is indexing in both directions by way of the strokes being progressively longer one direction than the other, which occasionally changes. The effect is very subtle when watching, more clear when running a video on fast-forward.

Post# 90903 , Reply# 13   10/27/2005 at 07:43 (6,749 days old) by kenmore1978 ()        
KM Roto Flex

 I went through the entire members photo collection, and believe it or not, there's not one shot of a Roto Flex agitator

Post# 90904 , Reply# 14   10/27/2005 at 08:05 (6,749 days old) by jetcone (Schenectady-Home of Calrods,Monitor Tops,Toroid Transformers)        
huhh??? Dadoes

 jetcone's profile picture
"F&P agitation is interesting in that there is indexing in both directions by way of the strokes being progressively longer one direction than the other, which occasionally changes."

How can it index in both directions while one stroke is longer than the other?
Does this mean that the agitator slowly rotates so every "right" stroke is longer than every "left" stroke and the whole thing cranks around in a complete circle after several agitations?
Or does the tub index around the agitator?

-confused in boston...............

Post# 90939 , Reply# 15   10/27/2005 at 13:28 (6,749 days old) by dadoes (TX, U.S. of A.)        

dadoes's profile picture
Jon, the stroke moves progressively around in one direction for a while, then switches and moves progressively around the other direction. The effect is very subtle. I believe it's an effect of both the stroke itself being slightly longer one direction than the other, and also due to intertia of the moving load at the end of the stroke.

I've haven't tried this on my IWL12, but I know on my GWL08, when the agitator is oscillating one can grab it at the end of a stroke and push it further along. The SmartDrive motor senses the motion and doesn't trigger a reverse stroke until movement has stopped at the end of the stroke. Thus, agitation action responds and changes to a small degree according to the motion of the load.

I recall a couple years ago washing a single small item, I believe it was cotton throw, in my GWL08. A couple times when the lower fins got a good 'grip' on the item, interia kept it moving further at the end of the stroke, and it was rather odd and interesting to see.

The wash basket is completely free-spinning during agitation, as it floats up off the drive cog when the tub fills with water.

Post# 90948 , Reply# 16   10/27/2005 at 16:23 (6,749 days old) by cleanteamofny ((Monroe, New York)        
Here's the RotoFlex in action..........

 cleanteamofny's profile picture
RotoFlex at low speed.
You may need to log into yahoo if you cannot view.

CLICK HERE TO GO TO cleanteamofny's LINK
Post# 90951 , Reply# 17   10/27/2005 at 16:42 (6,749 days old) by cleanteamofny ((Monroe, New York)        
F&P

 cleanteamofny's profile picture
Going from high to low agitation.

CLICK HERE TO GO TO cleanteamofny's LINK
Post# 90973 , Reply# 18   10/27/2005 at 20:28 (6,748 days old) by dadoes (TX, U.S. of A.)        

dadoes's profile picture
Larry, the links don't work for me, and I am logged in to Yahoo. I think if you copied the URLs while *you* were logged in, it includes a cookie reference for your log-in, which won't work for anybody else. Either that, or the Yahoo folder isn't shared for public viewing.

Post# 90993 , Reply# 19   10/27/2005 at 22:06 (6,748 days old) by cleanteamofny ((Monroe, New York)        

cleanteamofny's profile picture
OK,

Here's the main link to my album:

CLICK HERE TO GO TO cleanteamofny's LINK
Post# 90994 , Reply# 20   10/27/2005 at 22:08 (6,748 days old) by cleanteamofny ((Monroe, New York)        
Thanks

 cleanteamofny's profile picture
Glenn for correcting me!!!

Post# 91150 , Reply# 21   10/28/2005 at 21:46 (6,747 days old) by jetcone (Schenectady-Home of Calrods,Monitor Tops,Toroid Transformers)        
Thanks Glenn

 jetcone's profile picture
I see how it works like alot of other Oz washers I saw over there. My cousin had one , I was so suprised to see it in action. I had never thought you could clean clothes with a sweeping agigitator motion before. But why not??!!

Her's would swirl around and create big eddy currents, it was a very quite operation as I remember no sloshing sounds like a reversing agigtator.

I am falling for the top load dryer! Everytime I go to Gray's I keep lingering longer and longer over it.

Post# 91178 , Reply# 22   10/29/2005 at 01:19 (6,747 days old) by kenmore1978 ()        
RotoFlex

 I only see two pictures in Cleanteamofny's album, and neither is the inside of a washer.

Post# 91185 , Reply# 23   10/29/2005 at 03:00 (6,747 days old) by norgeman ()        
Agitators

It has been my exprience that those washers with fins that extend up along the agitator post get clothes cleaner as 1 they help to pull the clothes down to the bottom. 2. It also helps to breaks up any soap that hasn't disolved out. 3. To name a few machines that have fins or vanes on up the agitator posts, Fedders/Norge, G.E./Speed Queen/Kelvinator and Gibson/a few models of DD Whirlpool&Kenmore but just on the lower end machines/Maytag just started putting fins on the agitator post during the 90's.

CLICK HERE TO GO TO norgeman's LINK
Post# 91197 , Reply# 24   10/29/2005 at 06:07 (6,747 days old) by gyrafoam (Wytheville, VA)        

I have been looking for a "Roto-Flex" to put im my '65 LK "on steroids". Jason changed the pulley's and the agitation and spin speeds are VERY fast for a Kenmore! Envision a large "Vita-Mix"!

Post# 91235 , Reply# 25   10/29/2005 at 14:07 (6,747 days old) by cleanteamofny ((Monroe, New York)        

cleanteamofny's profile picture
I'm so sick of Yahoo Phunking with my folders!
I have no choice but to us MSN to view.......
Please give me time to redirect links.

Yahoo can kiss my widebody ---!

Post# 91807 , Reply# 26   11/1/2005 at 16:53 (6,744 days old) by cleanteamofny ((Monroe, New York)        

cleanteamofny's profile picture
Let's try it again......

There should be 4 items in the folder.
Two pics of my DD washer and dryer and two Mpegs

Please let me know if its working this time!

Larry

CLICK HERE TO GO TO cleanteamofny's LINK
Post# 91810 , Reply# 27   11/1/2005 at 17:01 (6,744 days old) by foraloysius (Leeuwarden, Friesland, the Netherlands)        

foraloysius's profile picture
I see only two pictures. One of your topload set and one of your frontload set. When I click on the File Folders link I see that there are four items in it, but when I click on it again I can only see those two pictures again.

Post# 91812 , Reply# 28   11/1/2005 at 17:20 (6,744 days old) by cleanteamofny ((Monroe, New York)        

cleanteamofny's profile picture
Thanks Louis!
Yahoo is not allowing Mpegs for some reason!?!?

Post# 91819 , Reply# 29   11/1/2005 at 17:49 (6,743 days old) by foraloysius (Leeuwarden, Friesland, the Netherlands)        

foraloysius's profile picture
I guess they don't. If you want to share a movie with us, try this site.

CLICK HERE TO GO TO foraloysius's LINK
Post# 91994 , Reply# 30   11/2/2005 at 21:51 (6,742 days old) by kenmorepeter5 ()        
MOVIE??

 I'm deaf. It's post #91819....I didn't find this movie, I don't know which is. Any help about find this movie?

~ Peter

Post# 92013 , Reply# 31   11/2/2005 at 23:03 (6,742 days old) by dadoes (TX, U.S. of A.)        

dadoes's profile picture
Peter, there's no movie on the link. Louis is just making a suggestion of using that site tempdir.com an on-line storage location for sharing video clips, since Yahoo apparently doesn't allow it.

Post# 92031 , Reply# 32   11/3/2005 at 06:25 (6,742 days old) by kenmorepeter5 ()        
Which is storage

 Which is the storage number?

~ Peter

Post# 92045 , Reply# 33   11/3/2005 at 07:35 (6,742 days old) by foraloysius (Leeuwarden, Friesland, the Netherlands)        

foraloysius's profile picture
Peter, no storage number because there is no movie.

Post# 92057 , Reply# 34   11/3/2005 at 09:06 (6,742 days old) by designgeek ()        

Re. indexing:

At risk of being unpopular, I'm going to say it shouldn't make a difference in the water currents.

Reason is this: Water is dense, has a lot of inertia. The smooth sides of a tub, when rotating during indexing, can't get "traction" on the water to make the mass of water move with them. To check this out, get a bucket full of water and rotate it back and forth by holding it off the ground and turning the handle clockwise and then counterclockwise. Drop a single square of clean toilet tissue in there so you can see what's happening. Nothing will happen; the water won't move much, the bucket will just "slide" past the water in each direction.

Now you put an agitator at the bottom and it's going to be moving faster than the water can move with it. So it acts like the impeller of a centrifugal pump and throws the water outward at the base of the agitator. The water current hits the side of the tub and turns upward, in a toroidal shape. The vector of the inertial mass of the water is perpendicular to the agitator. There's a lot of mass moving fairly quickly there. That mass is not going to be affected much if at all, by whether the wall of the washtub is or isn't moving.

Now let's take another extreme case, and assume we have a vertical-axis washtub with an agitator in the center, and the washtub itself has vertical blades in it like the tub of a front-loader. Now we'll have that hypothetical washtub index back and forth, and to be even more extreme, we'll have it move *in unison with the agitator.* In that case what we're going to get is centrifugal force (angular momentum), where the mass of water is really being pushed around and tries to climb the wall of the washtub. But the speed of the agitator is calculated such that there is not enough centrifugal force to cause the water to slosh out over the top of the washtub.

If you were to look at a cross-section, what you'd see is that the top surface of the mass of water is roughly concave, slightly depressed at the center and slightly higher at the edges. And if you were to throw in the hypothetical piece of clean toilet paper, or a handkerchief or washcloth, you'd see it circulating in a toroidal pattern: the water that has reached as far up as it's going to get along the walls of the tub has to go somewhere, so it rolls back down toward the center of the tub and then follows the column of the agitator downward to start over again.

I somewhat doubt that this hypothetical configuration would wash very well because the load would not be moving in a circle (the circle surrounding the axis of the agitator). It would only move in a rolling-over motion, no circular motion for mixing, so the large and small articles would tend to segregate in the load. You'd get a lot of turbulence at the periphery and that would produce excessive wear on some of the clothes.

It would be tempting to suggest that this configuration would wash fine if you used a shorter washing period, since after all, Hoovermatic used a maximum 4-minute cycle. However, the lack of mixing would produce the result that some articles would come clean and get a bit of excess wear in the process, and some articles would not get enough movement to get as clean.

Anyone wants to try this badly enough, there is probably a way to build a working model to test these ideas.

Post# 92160 , Reply# 35   11/3/2005 at 22:26 (6,741 days old) by bostonwash ()        
nice washers Cleanteam/Larry

 excellent kenmores in that apartment. look right at home in NY!

Post# 92225 , Reply# 36   11/4/2005 at 06:58 (6,741 days old) by cleanteamofny ((Monroe, New York)        

cleanteamofny's profile picture
I love the dryer but the washer is another story. The features are great but I wished the washer was more flexible with speeds and water temp!

Post# 92331 , Reply# 37   11/4/2005 at 22:20 (6,740 days old) by kenmore1978 ()        
flexibility

 As much as Ilove Lady K machines, the flexibility was a problem. The engineers basically decided thaty THEY knew what was the best combination of speeds/times/water temps and there was no way to override them, i.e., one couldn't have the long 14 minute wash with cold water. To be fair, KM wasn't the only company guilty of this, the Maytag al push button models even fixed the water levels for certain cycles. And it's rare indeed to find even a regular machine that let's you do slow agitation with fast spin.

Post# 92333 , Reply# 38   11/4/2005 at 22:28 (6,740 days old) by dadoes (TX, U.S. of A.)        

dadoes's profile picture
But some LKs had the Cold Wash option, yes? Didn't all the electronic machines allow that? For the pushbutton/rotary dial models, there's always dial-pushing / Selective Dialing.

Electro-mechanical pushbutton Maytags *were* restrictive. Some of them had the hidden 'advance' button, but it was't intended for consumer use, and one would have to figure out how to read the timer clicks.

Post# 98882 , Reply# 39   12/18/2005 at 16:04 (6,697 days old) by filterflo702 ()        
Lady K's

 My mom had a 1964 LK. The closest you could get to a long cold water wash was to push "B" cotton/linens colored, turn the dial until it locked and once it began filling, if you pushed "F" cold water wash button, the water temperature changed from "medium" which was a bit warmer than warm to a lukewarm/cool temp. That way, you at least got 12 minutes and cooler water.

Post# 98979 , Reply# 40   12/19/2005 at 08:17 (6,696 days old) by designgeek ()        


Here's another vote for gentle agitation and fast spins. And I haven't seen an auto TL that provides this option either.

Presumably one could hack the controls on a machine with a mechanical sequencer. A simple switch mounted on the panel would enable selecting the spin speed.

This could be a marketable feature for whatever company wants to be first to do it, and it would be really simple to do. You have one set of pushbuttons to select agitation speed (gentle, normal, strong) and another to select spin speeds (slow, normal, fast), and then the usual water level control and temperature controls, and the rotary knob to set wash time and overall cycle. The control panel could list a few typical combinations e.g. "cottons, use settings A plus B, permanent press use B plus C," etc. Perhaps the deluxe model could have separate temp controls for wash and rinse cycles, so you could do hot/hot for sanitizing and cold/cold for colors and various in between.

Post# 98989 , Reply# 41   12/19/2005 at 10:28 (6,696 days old) by toggleswitch (New York City, NY)        

toggleswitch's profile picture
Said: Here's another vote for gentle agitation and fast spins. And I haven't seen an auto TL that provides this option either.

Further on ...This could be a marketable feature for whatever company wants to be first to do it.


Response: It's already been done. I remember this on my GE washer circa 1981, I'd also like to see it..come back.

HINT HINT (This is one reason why I like to see birth years, gender, first name in profiles..helps us get a feel for the writer), and perhaps see the world from their eyes time-frame.

Post# 99019 , Reply# 42   12/19/2005 at 18:43 (6,695 days old) by brisnat81 (Brisbane Australia)        
BD Whirlpool

 I have a BD whirlpool control panel that lets you select the speeds seperately.

FF
FS
SF
SS

Its just a rotary knob.


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