Thread Number: 37368
Skeletons in my Closet!
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Post# 555474   11/9/2011 at 20:02 (4,522 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

Got this machine from bigalsf. Many many thanks to him for taking the time out of his very busy schedule to help with logistics and for being nice enough to even give me such a machine. It needs much work, but getting it running should be as simple as solving an unbalanced 3 phase circuit!

DWD8600UCLWH
V1400057G




This post was last edited 11/09/2011 at 20:38



Post# 555477 , Reply# 1   11/9/2011 at 20:08 (4,522 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

When first arrived, motor, pump, pulley, etc. were not in machine. I have reinstalled the motor and pump, as a start to reassemble the machine.

Post# 555480 , Reply# 2   11/9/2011 at 20:10 (4,522 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

Box of what else came with the machine.

Post# 555482 , Reply# 3   11/9/2011 at 20:13 (4,522 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

Glass is frosted! My hat off to the genius that thought of this! That person must lack common sense!

Post# 555485 , Reply# 4   11/9/2011 at 20:15 (4,522 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

other side of door

Post# 555487 , Reply# 5   11/9/2011 at 20:16 (4,522 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

Opening looks good.

Post# 555488 , Reply# 6   11/9/2011 at 20:21 (4,522 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

The boot was very stiff, has some cracking. I've started to restore it as best I can. Have applied to the boot some rubber roller restore solution, that I use in the restoration process for laser printers. Boot is more flexible now, but still working on it.

Post# 555490 , Reply# 7   11/9/2011 at 20:22 (4,522 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

Drum looks good.

Post# 555494 , Reply# 8   11/9/2011 at 20:28 (4,522 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

These machines are walking dinosaurs. Parts are very hard to find, not to mention the drive mechanism is overly complicated and inefficient, these machines just suck. Time to change that!

Post# 555496 , Reply# 9   11/9/2011 at 20:30 (4,522 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

What's in this box?

Post# 555502 , Reply# 10   11/9/2011 at 20:38 (4,522 days old) by cfz2882 (Belle Fourche,SD)        
drive mechanism

that GE combo looks to have almost the exact same belt/pulley arrangement as the
Ca.1961 RCA whirlpool combo i was given and stripped in 1979-the whirly also
had a belt going up to the blower-IIRC there was some sort of solenoid clutch to
engage the blower drive pulley...
Yes,electronic motor control has came a long way in the last 50yrs LOL.


Post# 555554 , Reply# 11   11/10/2011 at 00:17 (4,522 days old) by tolivac (greenville nc)        

Frosted glass as a window replacement?and guess its time to simplify the drive mechanism of that Combo machine with a new Leeson motor and VFD?You have a GE Combo WD "Kit"!You have to supply the assembly instructions!Neat machine-will be interesting to see the final result!

Post# 555559 , Reply# 12   11/10/2011 at 00:26 (4,522 days old) by jetcone (Schenectady-Home of Calrods,Monitor Tops,Toroid Transformers)        
this

jetcone's profile picture

will be interesting for sure.

 


Post# 555633 , Reply# 13   11/10/2011 at 09:19 (4,521 days old) by swestoyz (Cedar Falls, IA)        
What's in this box?

swestoyz's profile picture
I hope it involves a 3-phase motor and a VFD!!!

Any chance you could post a link to the rubber restore product? I've been soaking the Maytag Combo boot in glycerine for years now and it has helped, but I'm open to other options.

Ben


Post# 555647 , Reply# 14   11/10/2011 at 10:45 (4,521 days old) by redcarpetdrew (Fairfield, CA)        
Hey Melvin!

redcarpetdrew's profile picture
Really good to see you again. I can't wait to see this! This is why I love this site. Always something new to learn!

RCD


Post# 555660 , Reply# 15   11/10/2011 at 12:03 (4,521 days old) by Autowasherfreak ()        

It will be very interesting to see what you do with. The frosted glass sucks, LOL.


Post# 555785 , Reply# 16   11/10/2011 at 21:23 (4,521 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

Rex, Andrew, Ben, that's correct! The VFD is on the way. I'll post a good deal of instructions, maybe even some schematics. There will be several big modifications. ModLRC3PH is fitting the VFD and 3 phase motor to the GE combo. Have to use IEC motor due to clearance issues. There will be a surprise feature added in ModLRC3PH that will only be revealed in the final video. Before I get too involved in ModLRC3PH, we have to establish what the other modifications will be.
Ben:
I've posted a link to the site, however it looks like they have changed suppliers, as the bottle is not the same.


CLICK HERE TO GO TO supremewhirlpol's LINK


Post# 555790 , Reply# 17   11/10/2011 at 21:37 (4,521 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

What is ModCDSRRW? Hint: What does it have to do with this dishwasher? What is special about the GE Combo?

Post# 555791 , Reply# 18   11/10/2011 at 21:39 (4,521 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

What is ModCDCW? Hint: What does this fan have to do with it? What do condensing dryers really need?

Post# 555815 , Reply# 19   11/10/2011 at 23:24 (4,521 days old) by redcarpetdrew (Fairfield, CA)        
Just in time for Holloween... Dr. Frankenstein's laundry

redcarpetdrew's profile picture
I just can't escape the feeling that the phrase "It's ALIVE!!!" will be used before all this is over... LOL!

RCD


Post# 555831 , Reply# 20   11/11/2011 at 00:14 (4,521 days old) by tolivac (greenville nc)        

Can't remember the brands-used to use two types of rubber restorer in maintenance of broadcast studio gear-one came in a small brown glass bottle.You use only a TINY amount of this stuff on a part like a pinch roller for a tape deck.I made the mistake of soaking one in this and it swelled up! the other rubber restorer was in a plain metal can.It was better than the bottle type-used the type from a can on tape deck pinch rollers and turntable idler wheel tires.Now with digital----who needs rubber restorer?

Post# 555919 , Reply# 21   11/11/2011 at 11:54 (4,520 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

In general I don't see that much info online about these machines. Here is a video of my thoughts as to how the mechanism works.

CLICK HERE TO GO TO supremewhirlpol's LINK


Post# 556042 , Reply# 22   11/11/2011 at 23:08 (4,520 days old) by qualin (Canada)        

Good luck getting that old beast restored.

I'm interested to see how your modifications will work with the older technology inside that machine.


Post# 556044 , Reply# 23   11/11/2011 at 23:20 (4,520 days old) by DaveAMKrayoGuy (Oak Park, MI)        
I hope that this project will be just as successful as that

daveamkrayoguy's profile picture
Me, too! Keep us posted!


-- Dave


Post# 556058 , Reply# 24   11/12/2011 at 00:42 (4,520 days old) by tolivac (greenville nc)        

Like the videos on how the machine works and the collection of 3Ph motors.Very interesting.I don't have any such motors at home-but sorrounded by them here at work.All over the building and in the transmitters.Lets see-20hp cooling water pumps for the older CEMCO transmitters.Allis Chalmers-and they are on "soft start" drives.230V 3 Ph.Each transmitter has a 5Hp 230V Westinghouse 3Ph motor for the main cabinet blower,and in the blower room-a 15Hp 3 Ph 230V blower.These have Westinghouse motors-now replaced by WEG motors.The GE transmitters have 15Hp 3Ph 230V main blower motors and 5Hp 3Ph for Aux blower.No large pumps in these since the cooling is "Vapor Phase' cooling.The European transmitters have their motors rated in kilowatts instead of HP.they run off 3Ph 380-400V.One of these motors on an outside cooling unit has two three phase windings for dual speeds.Runs the cooler blower.The idea was when the coolant temp got over a certain temp the blower motor goes to high speed-as it cools down then switches to low speed.Its a BBC brand motor.And various 3Ph motors in the building-for HVAC blowers,and pumps.Others are for the air compressors here.

Post# 556100 , Reply# 25   11/12/2011 at 11:37 (4,519 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

Qualin:
For the mechanical side, the special belts, speed changer motor, and one of the idler pulleys will be taken out. The original motor and pump are being taken out, as well. The electrical side is more complex. Part of the circuit for the heater depends on the centrifugal switch of the original motor in order to operate. For that part of the machine, I will have to look at more closely as I will have to use something like SSR, or triac to handle the amount of current that the heaters will pull. Speeds will be programmed into the VFD, use low voltage signals for the terminal strip. The surprise feature of ModLRC3PH will require a dual timer that has relays, both NO and NC, and time cycling feature.

Dave:
The Edged Sapphire Blue Whirlpool is a very fun machine to use. It can be quite messy, and a little animated.

Rex:
My 3phase motor limit is ~7.5 hp. They get to be just too heavy to move down stairs. I have a 230VAC 3 phase source, but not a 460VAC or 575VAC source yet. WEG motors seem to be very good(to me). Multi-speed 3 phase motors are kinda special.






No guesses on what the other modifications are?

What is ModCDSRRW? Hint: What does it have to do with this dishwasher? What is special about the GE Combo? The GE combo needs lots of water. The busted Frigi dishwasher will provide the container.

What is ModCDCW? Hint: What does this fan have to do with it? Fan will be part of the water cooling system. What do condensing dryers really need? Condensing dryers need cold water.


There is one final modification: ModGECCL. What is this modification? Hint: TOL GE washers and dryers of this era have what on their consoles for productivity? The hint is in the picture below.

Picture owner member geextrarinse.


Post# 556133 , Reply# 26   11/12/2011 at 17:31 (4,519 days old) by redcarpetdrew (Fairfield, CA)        
THANK YOU!!!

redcarpetdrew's profile picture
I'm going to save that picture. A GE DispenseAll! This washer (with it's matching dryer) is what started it all for me. My Grandmother owned them when I was small and I remember being captivated by the washer. Finding this washer (and dryer) would be coming full circle for me...

RCD


Post# 556140 , Reply# 27   11/12/2011 at 18:42 (4,519 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

Andrew:
Yeah I wish I had a machine like that one too. In fact any GE FF washer with the console work light like the one above would do. If anyone has one of these that they want to get rid of, I'd be willing to part with a few choice machines just for it. I borrowed this picture from a post a few years ago made by member geextrarinse. I believe he has one of those models. In general you don't see very many GE FF machines around now.


ModGECCL: What is this modification? Hint: TOL GE washers and dryers of this era have what on their consoles for productivity? They have a worklight.

ModLRC3PH: can't say what the acronym is just yet, as it will ruin the surprise.
ModCDSRRW: Modification Condensing Dryer recycle water
ModCDCW: Modification Convert Drain water to Cold Water
ModGECCL: Modification GE Combo Console Light


Post# 556142 , Reply# 28   11/12/2011 at 18:50 (4,519 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

This motor needs to go. It only has 2 speeds and won"t do very much good

Post# 556146 , Reply# 29   11/12/2011 at 18:54 (4,519 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

Ah ha! There's the problem!

Post# 556148 , Reply# 30   11/12/2011 at 18:56 (4,519 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

Here is the replacement:


Post# 556151 , Reply# 31   11/12/2011 at 19:01 (4,519 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

Comparing it in size to the original motor. The D71D frame is slightly smaller than the 56 Frame. Space is tight under the drum, so have to go with metric motor. The new motor has a c-face mount flange on it that has to be factored into the mounting.

Post# 556152 , Reply# 32   11/12/2011 at 19:06 (4,519 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

Motor needs to be formatted. The feet can be mounted in different places around the motor to change its mounting orientation.

Post# 556153 , Reply# 33   11/12/2011 at 19:11 (4,519 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

The motor in this mounting orientation does not leave enough clearance for the junction box. Even though the motor fits, I don't like the junction box directly under the seal clamp of the outer drum with such little clearance.

Post# 556155 , Reply# 34   11/12/2011 at 19:15 (4,519 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

I've changed the mount orientation of the motor so that the junction box is on the other side. I put a belt on the drum pulley to that I know where the motor will sit and it be in a good spot to where I can adjust the pulley to line up the belt.

Post# 556160 , Reply# 35   11/12/2011 at 19:26 (4,519 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

To determine where the mark the foot mount holes, with the where I want it to be, I measure the distance from the flange to the very end of the machine. Then I measure the distance from the side panel to the far edge of the motor flange. I then remove the motor, and lay the machine on its front. I put the motor on the opposite side of the bottom of the machine, position the motor according to my measurements. I then draw the outline of the motor feet. I then measure the dimensions of the mount holes and where they are on the motor feet. Then draw the mounting holes.

Post# 556161 , Reply# 36   11/12/2011 at 19:27 (4,519 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

Drill the holes out. Test the mounting holes with the motor.

Post# 556163 , Reply# 37   11/12/2011 at 19:31 (4,519 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

Worked like a charm! The bottom of the flange hangs low, so need to elevate the motor in order so that it will mount properly, otherwise you may break the feet when tightening the motor down.

Post# 556193 , Reply# 38   11/12/2011 at 23:07 (4,519 days old) by qualin (Canada)        
Coupler and pump

Just curious then.. I apologize for the dumb questions...

Your new motor is only a single shaft as opposed to the double shafted old motor. How are you going to mount and drive the pump since there isn't a shaft on the other side of the motor?

Are you also going to use the existing motor pulley?

Also curious.. you said the old motor is a 2 speed motor. How will you emulate that using a VFD motor? Is it just a simple matter of some input terminals on the controller to tell it which speed to use?



Post# 556284 , Reply# 39   11/13/2011 at 11:40 (4,518 days old) by eronie (Flushing Michigan)        

This is getting VERY interesting !! The new varible speed controlers come in handy for a lot of projects I use them on my lathe an drill press no more belt changing!!

Post# 556429 , Reply# 40   11/14/2011 at 03:25 (4,517 days old) by tolivac (greenville nc)        

Does that GE combo washer-dryer have a blower or fan of some type for the drtyer-Did that run from a separate motor?Does your IEC motor need 380-400V 3 Ph to work?Like how you were able to figure out in mounting the new motor.This project is interesting-like the details on its progress.Your motor reminds me of some of the face mount motors in our European transmitters for the water pumps.there are a couple of Face mount motors for some of the blowers.These cools things like tuning caps and the base sockets for the power tubes.the filament connectors and filament rings on the tubes get VERY hot.They have to be kept cool so the Ceramic to metal seals on the tubes don't fail.

Post# 556431 , Reply# 41   11/14/2011 at 03:39 (4,517 days old) by tolivac (greenville nc)        

Other motors at workplaces-In the Wash DC plant-they had some very large 3Ph motors for the building HVAC system.sometimes had to help out with this-on the old Carrier Water chillers they had Crocker-Wheeler 700Hp wound rotor and syncronous motors to run the chillers.Base speeds of the motors was 1800RPM(Syncronous)-1750RPM for the Wound rotor.These ran from a 3Ph 2500V supply.The wound rotors had rotor load resisotrs for starting and speed control.The syncronous ones aran at fixed speed.You had to adjust the DC feild supply for unity reading on a PF meter on the motor controller.On the later renovation of the system--the Carrier chillers were replaced with Trane ones.1200 ton and 600ton.The old Carrier were 600ton.And the Carrier had TWICE the motor HP as the new ones.The Trane chillers have hermetic induction motors that run at 3450RPM.They have a reduced voltage starter via an autotransforemr that is switched by the starter.the condersor pumps are fixed speed Relaince "Iron Horse" 100 HP.The evaporator pumps are again 100Hp-but controlled by Grahm VFD's running from 480V The VFD motors are Balder.Used to have to start one of the chillers to provide cooling for the shop and other areas where I worked.Just one start button and the chiller auto startsa dn loads-same with its pumps.Neat to watch.The old chillers have to be started and loaded manually.the idea was to control that buildings HVAC systems remotely.That was being worked on at the time I was there.Probably got that going by now.And that place had 4 rotary screw 60hp air compressors-two in use-two as backup-and could switch automatically or manually.Had to repair one compressors Load-unload valve relay.Otherwise the compressor wouldn't start-just trips its breaker.when the unloading fixed-was fine.The 60 hp motor drove the compressor and oil pump directly-3450RPM 60Hp 480V.1 blower motor cooled the compressor and oil,air coolers.Don't know what its HP was.And I was there to work on studio equipmenbt-and had to know how to switch to the main or backup studio cooling chillers.And for that building they have blowers for air circulation in the building-and they are run by Crocker Wheeler motors-some at least 70Yrs old-still going strong.Guess Crocker Wheeler made a good motor-in various HP.208-230V 3Ph 3-25HP.

Post# 556473 , Reply# 42   11/14/2011 at 10:30 (4,517 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md)        
GE COMBO CONVERISON

combo52's profile picture

We are all watching this and are excited to see how it will work. 

 

The original motor is just one speed 1725 RPMs and it is a very rugged motor save it for someone. The pump cupping is the same as the GE TL washers, as is the water pump [ this pump was used on the BOL non FF models].


Post# 556490 , Reply# 43   11/14/2011 at 11:26 (4,517 days old) by Tomturbomatic (Beltsville, MD)        
Looks like you have set out to drain the swamp

The first time I ever saw one of the GE pump couplers, I was reminded of the Japanese lanterns we made in Kindergarten.

While the motor is just one speed, it was two directional as reversing motors were used in many laundry and dishwasher applications; one way for wash and the other direction for drain and spin where applicable. With the original set up, the machine tumbles in one direction for washing and rinsing and in reverse direction for draining to make the pump work. Since the pump has to work all during the drying phase, it tumbles counterclockwise during dry which is why the heating elements are placed where they are on the opposite side of the machine from the dispensers which are part of the pathetic condensation system.

While the original speed changing mechanism was primitive, it helped add weight to the machine, as did the big motor, to help stabalize it during the spin periods. The undercounter/builtin model was held to the floor by the plate fastened to the floor which had channels for the machine's feet. The free-standing model just sat on the floor. As a safety measure, they had a speed control feed back mechanism in the left front foot (as you are looking at the machine). The machine rocked up and down on this foot during the spin periods which made a ticking sound and if it rocked beyond a certain amount, it dropped the machine out of spin into a rebalance tumble, losing valuable spin time since it did not interrupt current to the timer motor. I don't know of a single combo that sophisticated. I remember riding the front corner of one of these to keep the spin speed up to the rip-roaring speed of 225 or 250 rpm; sorry I don't remember exactly now. I would love to try using one of these with a SPIN-X or even my W1918 Miele to compare drying speeds between what the combo extracted and the same load extracted at 1600 rpm.


Post# 556500 , Reply# 44   11/14/2011 at 12:44 (4,517 days old) by mickeyd (Hamburg NY)        
"We are all watching this and are excited to see how it

mickeyd's profile picture

 

 

Glad to see you back, Melvin, and to hear you, too. Just watched your video. Interesting and soothing. I like it when people talk in their vids.

It feels like you know them a little better. Always get a kick out of your mods. Can't wait to see what you do with the lights, remembering the sapphire and how your "matted" a slot near the inlet for the tub light, if memory is working right.




This post was last edited 11/14/2011 at 13:04
Post# 556549 , Reply# 45   11/14/2011 at 16:18 (4,517 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

qualin:
Don't apologize, if you have a question just ask it. We will go through it and get a solution! The pumps are harder to find too, so it has to go along with the motor. I will be using a pump powered by a shaded pole motor. The older bigger ones from the early post FF GE/Hotpiont machines look very attractive to me for this project. I've looked at the motor pulley and it seems to be made for the bigger belts with the teeth. The pulley that I will be using will be smaller, due to several factors to which I will later today, when I post updates to mounting the motor, the pulley, and wiring the motor. The original motor is actually one speed 1725 RPM 1/3 HP, Thanks John(combo52) for correcting me. When a typed the above post I was thinking about a motor that looked very similar to it an it's specs stuck in my head->sorry. The VFD module is an industrial unit. Most industrial units have a number of parameters that can be changed. Its not just a case of connect up the VFD to power and a 3 phase motor and boom the motor works. There are parameters such as ramp acceleration time, ramp deceleration time, Braking voltage, switching frequency, motor load type. Every VFD is different. There are input and output terminals on the VFD that can be programmed to have the VFD do specific things. For example: The Telemanque VFD on the Primusw-10x^2 project has several modes that you can program in to it for the terminal inputs and outputs. Some of the inputs you can program the motor to operate at different speeds or change direction. When I get to programming the VFD, I think you will understand better once you see a few diagrams and commands.

Eronie:
Yes they are very handy, but are expensive, and do not stand up to extreme voltage fluctuations.

Rex:
I don't think the combo machines have blowers in them for drying. There are elements in the drum though. The Leeson motor can operate on both the 380-400V and the 230V 3 phase. It's just a change in the wiring configuration. 700HP motor is big. Does it have heaters? Are the Crocker Wheeler motors as big and heavy as the vintage Repulsion-Start motors?

Mickeyd:
The camera I'm using doesn't do justice to the real sound of my voice. I do have updates to the blue Whirlpool, that I need to post some time.


Post# 556591 , Reply# 46   11/14/2011 at 18:54 (4,517 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md)        
ELECTRIC DRAIN PUMPS

combo52's profile picture

Hi Melvin it looks like you are really moving ahead. One thing to keep in mind most electric drain pumps on newer washers are only intermittent duty [ including the GE pump you mentioned ] so it may not make it very long into the dry cycle.


Post# 556679 , Reply# 47   11/15/2011 at 00:46 (4,517 days old) by tolivac (greenville nc)        

Melvin: the protection circuits for motors or other devices running from medium voltages rely on current sensing transformers in series with the power supply lines going into the motor or other device.Relays are connected to the secondaries of the current sense transformers-generally one transformer per phase.If an overcurrent condition is detected-the motor starter contactors are opened.-and a warning alarm is sounded or displayed for the operator.Medium voltage circuit breakers work the same way-if the breaker is termed "utility" grade-it has a 3 shot reset function-its like you are at your home and get a power failure-if after the third shot--get out your candles and flashlights-the utilities breaker will have to be manually reset by the lineman after he has located and corrected the problem,Barnes&Powell makes such circuit breakers.GE,westinghouse USED to make them.Barnes&Powell electric bought up the GE med voltage breaker division,Seimens bought up Westinghouse breaker,transformer divisions.
the Crocker Wheeler motors were indeeed heavy-they had cast iron end bells and a large core.Most that I saw at that building ran at 1325 RPM-and some at 1725RPM.the 700 HP models were beautiful peices of engineering--too bad they suffered the fate of the "hot Wrench"-cutting torch.The old chillers and motors suffered that fate-so they could be removed from the building and sent to the scrap yard-oh the Indignity!and on those old Centrifical chillers-the 700Hp motor turned a transmission-a "speed increase" gear-stepped up the 1800RPM motor speed to 8,000 RPM for the compressor impellor-two stage.The newer Trane compressors had no speed increase gear-the 3450 RPM hermetic motor drove a multistage centrifical compressor.


Post# 556753 , Reply# 48   11/15/2011 at 10:04 (4,516 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

Everything about the motor is in metric units, so any pulley I use will have to be modified accordingly. Shaft diameter is ~.55in. pulley inner diameter is .5in. Pulley has been machined to fit the shaft.

Post# 556754 , Reply# 49   11/15/2011 at 10:06 (4,516 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

Pulley fits on shaft snug.(key removed)

Post# 556755 , Reply# 50   11/15/2011 at 10:09 (4,516 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

Here is the wiring configuration. The motor is currently configured for the higher voltage (440V 3ph).

Post# 556757 , Reply# 51   11/15/2011 at 10:10 (4,516 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

Using special conduit

Post# 556758 , Reply# 52   11/15/2011 at 10:13 (4,516 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

Here is the original motor configuration.(440v 3ph) Each wire is marked with a number. Motor is wye wound configuration.

Post# 556760 , Reply# 53   11/15/2011 at 10:19 (4,516 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

Motor configuration should be for the lower voltage.(220V 3ph) Your configuration should be similar to post 556755 for low voltage. U2:T4,T5,T6 L1:T1,T7 L2:T2,T8 L3:T3,T9. Motor wiring configurations can vary per motor. FOLLOW YOUR DIAGRAM!!

Post# 556762 , Reply# 54   11/15/2011 at 10:20 (4,516 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

Motor wired, just needs to be installed.

Post# 556764 , Reply# 55   11/15/2011 at 10:23 (4,516 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

I use size M6 metric bolts with locking nuts, they are stainless steel. Some washers here and there for elevating motor to account for the flange.

Post# 556765 , Reply# 56   11/15/2011 at 10:24 (4,516 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

Motor nameplate.

Post# 556766 , Reply# 57   11/15/2011 at 10:27 (4,516 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

Motor is mounted, time to test it.

Post# 556768 , Reply# 58   11/15/2011 at 10:31 (4,516 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

Test: no load, no VFD 220VAC 3ph

CLICK HERE TO GO TO supremewhirlpol's LINK


Post# 556951 , Reply# 59   11/16/2011 at 04:16 (4,515 days old) by qualin (Canada)        

Glad to hear the motor is working. It makes quite a sound starting up.

Good luck getting it to work with the VFD.


Post# 557004 , Reply# 60   11/16/2011 at 10:33 (4,515 days old) by mickeyd (Hamburg NY)        
We have ignition ! Congrats.

mickeyd's profile picture

 

How many days till lift-off? Cool


Post# 557060 , Reply# 61   11/16/2011 at 14:26 (4,515 days old) by jetcone (Schenectady-Home of Calrods,Monitor Tops,Toroid Transformers)        
that is a loud motor

jetcone's profile picture

are you installing bushings between the baseplate and motor??

Running an hour and 1/2 would leave one deaf.

 

Cool project can't wait to see the finish line!!

 


Post# 557061 , Reply# 62   11/16/2011 at 14:28 (4,515 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

Mickeyd:
Not sure. Got a VFD problem. I really wanted this machine to operate on 110V, however I can either get a VFD the operates with the same voltage, or get one of the better ones that operate on 220V 1 phase. Either way it's going to cost several hundred dollars. The GE AF-300 mini VFD that I used for the Blue Whirlpool is really a cheap made VFD, as what goes to the motor from it is not clean, and you really hear over time how nasty the signal is. That is the drawback of using a device to which the input is 110V 1 phase and the output is 220V 3 phase.

qualin:
What you heard was the rotary phase converter and a 1.5 HP 460V 3 phase motor starting up on 230V 3 phase. Later in the video you hear the motor in the GE combo.


Post# 557155 , Reply# 63   11/17/2011 at 01:25 (4,515 days old) by tolivac (greenville nc)        

Strange place to find a rotary phase convertor-One of my freinds that works out here at the transmitter site-he has retired now-has a machine shop in his garage-his lathe and milling machine need three phase power.Of all places he found a phase convertor----one of the pawn shops here in town.The shop operator didn't understand what it was-he had it marked as a motor-Bobby was able to buy it for only a few dollars!Now he can run his lathe and mill!

Post# 558464 , Reply# 64   11/22/2011 at 06:37 (4,509 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        
The VFD

Well it's here! ABB ACS-141-1K1-1-U Too bad it's made in China.

Post# 558465 , Reply# 65   11/22/2011 at 06:39 (4,509 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

Control wires go in this side. Heatsink is part of the mount.

Post# 558466 , Reply# 66   11/22/2011 at 06:42 (4,509 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

Mounting supports DIN rail too!

Post# 558468 , Reply# 67   11/22/2011 at 06:43 (4,509 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

{

Post# 558469 , Reply# 68   11/22/2011 at 06:44 (4,509 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

power input

Post# 558470 , Reply# 69   11/22/2011 at 06:46 (4,509 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

Output to the motor and braking

Post# 558471 , Reply# 70   11/22/2011 at 06:52 (4,509 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

Case off - terminals
The capacitors in these devices can store a VERY nasty surprise. Be careful when operating with the case off.


Post# 558472 , Reply# 71   11/22/2011 at 06:54 (4,509 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

VFD HIM

Post# 558473 , Reply# 72   11/22/2011 at 06:56 (4,509 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

New and unused!

Post# 558475 , Reply# 73   11/22/2011 at 07:18 (4,509 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

It's been sitting in a warehouse forever in a day->new old stock. It's ABB brand. ABB is known for their switching gear, especially in medium and high voltage. Their VFDs are very good too, similar to AB, and Yaskawa in quality. Model ACS-141-1K1-1U: The 140 series, 1 phase, 1K1:.55KW, heatsink version, 200V range. I went with the much more expensive ABB 220V version due to the motor being run several hours and due to the fact that VFD modules that power and control 3 phase motors from 110V product produce a nastier, more noisy output than the 220V 1 phase and 3 phase models. 110V models don't last as long, are not as efficient, and can eventually cause issues with the the insulation of the motor, due to the much more noisy output. This noisy output has lots of unpleasant things like voltage and current transients that are amplified due to the switching frequency of the IGBT's, the capacitances created by the switching, and the fact that one is trying to power a device that requires a higher voltage, and 3 phases, all from 110V 1 phase.

Post# 558476 , Reply# 74   11/22/2011 at 07:23 (4,509 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

Kinda hard finding a place to mount the VFD in the GE combo. You want to mount it in a place that does not have the opportunity to get wet, or very warm. The top right front looks good for now.

Post# 558478 , Reply# 75   11/22/2011 at 07:27 (4,509 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

DIN rail makes mounting and removal more manageable.

Post# 558480 , Reply# 76   11/22/2011 at 07:33 (4,509 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

Time to wire and test the VFD. This test is just to ensure that the VFD works. I've temporarily rugged up the belt and pulley system. I'm using one of the original idler pulleys for this test. It will be replaced with a much better one later. Usually the VFD has a test program or has factory settings for basic functionality. I wire the mains in, and the motor out.

Post# 558481 , Reply# 77   11/22/2011 at 07:35 (4,509 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

I did some things here and there on the mechanical side to get it working just for the test.

Post# 558482 , Reply# 78   11/22/2011 at 07:36 (4,509 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

L

Post# 558484 , Reply# 79   11/22/2011 at 07:38 (4,509 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

I put the VFD in "local" mode. Lets proceed with testing.

Post# 558486 , Reply# 80   11/22/2011 at 07:40 (4,509 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

It looks happy! Link to the test video below.

CLICK HERE TO GO TO supremewhirlpol's LINK


Post# 558673 , Reply# 81   11/23/2011 at 00:54 (4,509 days old) by tolivac (greenville nc)        

Watched the video-GREAT-looks like the Motor and drive work well.glad the experiment is progressing.If you absolutly had to use a 120V input VFD-if its output could be cleaned up somewhat by running it thru a 1to 1 3Ph transformer.As you would know AC motors HATE square waves!

Post# 558681 , Reply# 82   11/23/2011 at 03:40 (4,508 days old) by qualin (Canada)        

Looks like you have the full range of motion and speeds set up. I'm guessing at 60 Hz output, that drum is spinning at 300 RPM?

Which leads into the question, how fast did these originally spin?

Looks to me like you have to do some programming now.

Did these originally just work in one direction only or did they reverse, stop, reverse, etc for the washing action?


Post# 558861 , Reply# 83   11/23/2011 at 21:52 (4,508 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

Rex:
That's true. That's why I chose a motor rated for inverter duty. Yeah, but still not very good for the motor. 3 phase Isolation transformer would probably work.

qualin:
For wash: 47-51 RPM For spin: 215 rpm With this VFD, I can push the motor to 300Hz, but it won't do the motor or the machine any good. At 60Hz the motor is 3425 RPM. I have made to computations of what frequency I need to set the VFD to in order to achieve the proper RPMs. At some point I may post the computations. During the test video, the motor and VFD worked OK, but not its best. Going through the manual, there are ~52 different parameters that I will need to program. I'll post that after I create the Idler pulley.

The GE combo tumbles in one direction for wash, and the other direction for spin, so I've been told.


Post# 558872 , Reply# 84   11/23/2011 at 22:59 (4,508 days old) by qualin (Canada)        

Ok, so that makes me wonder now..

Are you going to "Preserve" the way it washed and dried, by having it tumble in one direction for each mode?

Or are you going to modernize it a bit and have it do the tumble clockwise/pause/tumble anti-clockwise sequence for washing and then perhaps just a straight normal unidirectional tumble for drying?

It seems to me that with that VFD and a small micro-controller board, the possibilities are endless...

... and that all the vintage timer would be good for would be for putting the machine into the right mode at the right time and the controller does the rest.

Something like an Arduino controller would do the trick quite nicely, but I'm not sure how far you want to modernize this machine..


Post# 558888 , Reply# 85   11/24/2011 at 00:33 (4,508 days old) by tolivac (greenville nc)        

Melvin-"invertor" duty motors have heavier insulation than standard duty motors-so as to withstand the "grunge" that VFD's can generate.The transformers and reactors were especially intended for motors that weren't made to operate off a VFD.I remember a crude VFD I made---involved a VERY high power audio amp(surplus Altec Lansing A287 beleive it was --a 300W tubed amp from a drive movie theater)and an audio oscillator.The motor I used was an old syncronous teletype motor-I could run it from several Hertz on up to about 300 as you are doing.The torque of that motor changed greatly at the extreme ends-and the tubes in the amp were working much harder-the amp had a 120V output-guess just for that type use or for a lab shaker table motor.It also had 70.7V(like stand PA system)and 4,8,16 ohms.When you used that amp with a speaker-sounded very good.Used two 845 tubes in the output-and 866 mercury vapor rectifiers You drove it with a separate amp-used a 50W mono amp to drive the Altec.Altec made an amp especially for the purpose of driving that amp but didn't have it.A later Altec amp used 6BA6 tubes and 813's so it had higher gain.wished I had one of those.But it was still fun to use that Atec amp I had as a "VFD"Ended up selling it to an Altec collector.Since my Altec "VFD" would generate a sine wave-no filtering required-but--the amp could not start larger motors-like a 1/2Hp one from a washer-or a disposer.And of course those motors would be limited in the frequency range.the teletype motor ran from 120V.Oh how I remember those teletype machines well-common staple in radio,TV stations and newspapers.UPI provided the machines for the stations or newspapers teletype rooms-got the motor from a hamfest.

Post# 559173 , Reply# 86   11/25/2011 at 14:19 (4,506 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

Time to do some wire tracing! Wires are VERY filthy. Very important to see the color of the wires. Cleaning the inside of the console.

Post# 559175 , Reply# 87   11/25/2011 at 14:20 (4,506 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

Timer is missing a bolt.

Post# 559177 , Reply# 88   11/25/2011 at 14:22 (4,506 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

Everything else in the console looks good.

Post# 559178 , Reply# 89   11/25/2011 at 14:24 (4,506 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

Something is missing!

Post# 559180 , Reply# 90   11/25/2011 at 14:26 (4,506 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

Black wire from the terminal block is disconnected. This machine is nice and filthy!

Post# 559182 , Reply# 91   11/25/2011 at 14:28 (4,506 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

More dirty wires!

Post# 559183 , Reply# 92   11/25/2011 at 14:30 (4,506 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

hot/cold water valve, and condensing valve are missing. Judging by the mark on the cabinet, something very bad happened in this area.

Post# 559519 , Reply# 93   11/26/2011 at 21:45 (4,505 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

From a repair guide that I found on another section of this site, there is a C/H water valves and a condensing valve. Being that GE combos are dead walking dinosaurs, due to no spare parts availability, here is my solution:

Post# 559520 , Reply# 94   11/26/2011 at 21:49 (4,505 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

I use C/H valves from Kenmore/Whirlpool DD machine and a water valve from either a refrigerator or dishwasher. They are spare parts that I took from machines.

Post# 559521 , Reply# 95   11/26/2011 at 21:55 (4,505 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

I use some adapters to convert the fittings and hose sizes. The black hoses and y-connector come from a young FL machine that got crushed, due to different parts of it not being engineered properly. Still need to pressure test and check for leaks with this solution. Now...back to tracing wires, and relay logic.

Post# 559804 , Reply# 96   11/27/2011 at 22:32 (4,504 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

Tracing wires to figure out which ones go to each of the valves, I find the following.

Post# 559805 , Reply# 97   11/27/2011 at 22:37 (4,504 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

Purple + orange is for the condensing valve, but taping them together? Really? Good thing I decide to trace the wires before putting power to the while machine! Untaping one wire, not too happy about this!

Post# 559807 , Reply# 98   11/27/2011 at 22:41 (4,504 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

After tracing the wires for the valves, I ended up switching the BL and BL/WH wires so that the HOT valve is on the bottom.

Post# 559808 , Reply# 99   11/27/2011 at 22:43 (4,504 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

Condensing valve connected. I have not taped the connectors yet

Post# 559809 , Reply# 100   11/27/2011 at 22:45 (4,504 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

H/C water valves

Post# 559810 , Reply# 101   11/27/2011 at 22:48 (4,504 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

something is missing here...

Post# 559811 , Reply# 102   11/27/2011 at 22:50 (4,504 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

I'm missing the neutral wire! Interesting that I found it at the front of the machine!

Post# 559812 , Reply# 103   11/27/2011 at 22:54 (4,504 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

I feel better about the terminal block now.

Post# 559813 , Reply# 104   11/27/2011 at 22:57 (4,504 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

There's a unbalanced leg switch and the speed changer motor that I have to trace wires to now...

Post# 561053 , Reply# 105   12/3/2011 at 22:11 (4,498 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

Time to wire the contactors...

Post# 561054 , Reply# 106   12/3/2011 at 22:15 (4,498 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

Contactor for VFD:
110VAC coil : 220VAC load


Post# 561055 , Reply# 107   12/3/2011 at 22:18 (4,498 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

VFD wired to contactor to terminal block

Post# 562649 , Reply# 108   12/11/2011 at 14:44 (4,490 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

I got the feeling that who ever was playing with this machine is the past almost got their ### handed to them. This connector is from one of the elements going to the thermostat.

Post# 562656 , Reply# 109   12/11/2011 at 14:57 (4,490 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

Connector on the thermostat is even worse! Almost ready to test, except, I have one wire left.

Post# 562677 , Reply# 110   12/11/2011 at 17:32 (4,490 days old) by starrail ()        
Primus

I got here loking for information on Primus W series washer/extractors. Its good to know at least one other person has Primus knowledge. I hope to gain more.

Jack aka StarRail@yahoo.com


Post# 562707 , Reply# 111   12/11/2011 at 20:11 (4,490 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

Hi Jack, I sent you an email.


Ok, I've got the switching logic down now. Apparently that dark Blue wire was important! I ended up having to do some wiring due to the centrifugal switch of the motor and terminal box no longer being present. Wiring is a mess currently.


Post# 562708 , Reply# 112   12/11/2011 at 20:14 (4,490 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

There are 3 contactors, one for the pump, one for switching terminal that was on the original motor, the other contactor is for the VFD. This is a picture of the pump contactor buried in some of the wiring.

Post# 562710 , Reply# 113   12/11/2011 at 20:19 (4,490 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

This is the switching contactor. It serves as the replacement for the terminal box in the original motor. The terminal box on the original motor is controlled by the centrifugal switch. It controls the other side of the Calrods, the water valve solenoids, the timer motor. Its configuration may change as I test this machine. It was difficult to figure out what was happening in side of the box, due to the wiring schematics being very vague.

Post# 562711 , Reply# 114   12/11/2011 at 20:20 (4,490 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

The VFD contactor: nothing changed here

Post# 562713 , Reply# 115   12/11/2011 at 20:22 (4,490 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

A test video of the switching logic has been uploaded.

CLICK HERE TO GO TO supremewhirlpol's LINK


Post# 562938 , Reply# 116   12/13/2011 at 00:02 (4,489 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        
Let the Programming begin shall we?

The ABB 140 series VFD is very versatile for industrial machine controls. Has 8 application macros, 42 groups of parameters with >= 10 programmable parameters per group. Can take PID controls, serial RS-232, RS-485. I would post the manual pages, but I'm sure that would be violating some stupid copyright law, so I will post the parameters that I have programmed. When I do post the parameters, they will go in the follow order: Parameter Number, description, parameter. This will take a while:

Post# 563048 , Reply# 117   12/13/2011 at 17:19 (4,488 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        
VFD Programming

Programming the Basic parameters:
Group 99: start-up data:
9902 - Application Macro

The ACS 140 series has 8 macros with predefined advanced settings for common applications. These are here to help make things simpler.

Default = 0(FACTORY MACRO) You can keep this setting if the i/o arrangement and drive configuration fits your needs.

I use Macro 3 = ALTERNATE


Post# 563056 , Reply# 118   12/13/2011 at 17:43 (4,488 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

Here is the specifics on the macro I've chosen

Post# 563067 , Reply# 119   12/13/2011 at 18:32 (4,488 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

continuing:

 

9905 - Motor Nominal Voltage

This is the voltage found on the nameplate of the motor.

230VAC

9906 - Motor Nominal Current

This is the current rating found on the nameplate of the motor.

1.6A

9907 Motor Nominal Frequency

This is the normal operating frequency of the motor. I could push the over what the motor is rated for, like what happines in the modern FL machines, but the is not necessary. It creates more problems in the long-run. I keep the value at the default, which is 60Hz.

9908 - Motor Nominal speed

This is the speed (RPM) rating found on the nameplate of the motor. There are 2 speed ratings on the nameplate, one for 50Hz, one for 60Hz. This motor will operate at a max of 60Hz, I use that rating. 3425 RPM.

Group 10: Command Inputs
1003 - Rotation direction lock
3 = Request

Group 11: Reference Select
1105 - EXT REF1 MAX The maximum frequency reference in HZ

I leave the default setting = 60Hz.

Group 12: Constant Speeds
1202 - Const speed 1 11.61Hz -tumble
1203 - Const speed 2 48.96Hz -Spin
1204 - Const speed 3 15Hz (DEFAULT)

My calculations for determining the speeds that I need are approximate.


Group 13: Analog inputs
1301:Minimum AI1
Minimum value of AI1 in percent. Defines relative anaog input value where frequency reference reaches minimum value

0%

Group 15: Analog ouputs
1503:Ao Content Max
Define output frequency where analog output reaches 20mA

I leave this at the default = 50Hz

Group 20: Limits
2003:Max Current
Maximum output current of the VFD
Range: 0.5 * I_n - 1.5 * I_n, where I_n is nominal current of the ACS 140
This is set to 4.5 A

2008:Maximum Frequency
This is the maximum output frequency of the VFD
The range is 0-300 Hz

Over driving the motor is not necessary

I set it to 60 Hz

Group 21: START/STOP
2102: Stop function
These are the conditions during motor stopping
I choose 1 = coast, rather than using dynamic braking

Group 22:Accel/Decel
2202:Accelerate Time 1
Ramp 1: time from zero to max frequency
10.0sec

2203:Decelerate Time 1
Ramp 1: time from max frequency to zero
5.0sec

2204:Accelerate Time 2
Ramp 1: time from zero to max frequency
60.0sec

2205:Decelerate Time 2
Ramp 1: time from max frequency to zero
60.0sec

Group 26:
2606: U/f below field weakening point
I keep this value at the default, as I want constant torque
1(LINEAR)


Post# 563209 , Reply# 120   12/14/2011 at 11:05 (4,487 days old) by Jsneaker ()        
CHINA? AARGH!

I am so sick of seeing everything made in the United States of China! Thanks to bureaucratic, money-hungry unions, the USA is no longer competitive.

Post# 563803 , Reply# 121   12/17/2011 at 21:42 (4,484 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

Competitive? That depends on where you look! They send tons of their kids over here to OUR colleges. They have agencies that forge and create false information just so their kids look good enough on paper to get in the finest schools here. Most of the chinese kids in the US for education purposes are nice, but they lack common sense. The US hasn't been milked dry yet, but we aren't far from it.

Post# 565480 , Reply# 122   12/27/2011 at 22:29 (4,474 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

Time to get rid of more unnecessary useless proprietary GE crap! I make my own generic idler pulley. I use 1/4"? thick angle iron left over from another project.

Post# 565481 , Reply# 123   12/27/2011 at 22:31 (4,474 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

/

Post# 565482 , Reply# 124   12/27/2011 at 22:33 (4,474 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

Time to cut it. Lots of flying metal and sparks!

Post# 565483 , Reply# 125   12/27/2011 at 22:35 (4,474 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

Very hot! Still glowing.

Post# 565485 , Reply# 126   12/27/2011 at 22:36 (4,474 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

]

Post# 565486 , Reply# 127   12/27/2011 at 22:38 (4,474 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

Time to paint the bracket.

Post# 565487 , Reply# 128   12/27/2011 at 22:39 (4,474 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

painted black!

Post# 565488 , Reply# 129   12/27/2011 at 22:41 (4,474 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

use threaded rods and locking nuts.

Post# 565492 , Reply# 130   12/27/2011 at 22:58 (4,474 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

Start relay moved, more things added. Space starting to get tight, still have things to add.

Post# 565691 , Reply# 131   12/29/2011 at 01:41 (4,473 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

Idler pulley has internal bearing.

Post# 565694 , Reply# 132   12/29/2011 at 01:43 (4,473 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

Use the lock nuts to your advantage to change the position of the pulley.

Post# 565697 , Reply# 133   12/29/2011 at 01:46 (4,473 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

I use a spring for tension.

Post# 565699 , Reply# 134   12/29/2011 at 01:51 (4,473 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

Oh gee, should I really reveal what I use to control the VFD?

Post# 565702 , Reply# 135   12/29/2011 at 02:10 (4,472 days old) by qualin (Canada)        

This is a much more elegant system, I'll admit. I had to scroll through your whole thread and see how you've evolved this machine. It is incredible the amount of work you've put into this machine so far.

Keep it up.. I'm certainly interested in seeing the final product!


Post# 565790 , Reply# 136   12/29/2011 at 13:43 (4,472 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        
Oh gee, should I really reveal what I use to control the VFD

Ummmm... hello. Anyone?

Post# 565798 , Reply# 137   12/29/2011 at 15:14 (4,472 days old) by toploader55 (Massachusetts Sand Bar, Cape Cod)        
Hi Melvin

toploader55's profile picture
What are you going to use to control the VFD ?

Your work is truly facinating. Eddie


Post# 565801 , Reply# 138   12/29/2011 at 15:43 (4,472 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        
I think I may have fallen off my limb.

Eddie:
I thought you'd never ask! What kept you?


I use Siemens LOGO! brick PLC.


Post# 565802 , Reply# 139   12/29/2011 at 15:46 (4,472 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

the LOGO! mounting is DIN rail, requires 12/24VDC power. I mount it on the end next to the option switches on the console.

Post# 565803 , Reply# 140   12/29/2011 at 15:48 (4,472 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

The LOGO! needs a power supply, the machine start relay needed to be moved.

Post# 565804 , Reply# 141   12/29/2011 at 15:54 (4,472 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

VFD control is LVDC. The LOGO! interfaces the signals of the machine to something that is understandable to the VFD. On the VFD, I use terminals 8-14.

Post# 565805 , Reply# 142   12/29/2011 at 15:57 (4,472 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

terminals 8, 10 are connected together. Terminal 9 is the 12V+ DC signal, is gets used with the rest of the terminals.

Post# 565806 , Reply# 143   12/29/2011 at 15:58 (4,472 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

At this point, configuration of the VFD is finished!

Post# 565811 , Reply# 144   12/29/2011 at 16:12 (4,472 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

Now its time to wire the LOGO!

At the bottom of the LOGO!:
Start (FEW) signal is wired to Q1 with +12VDC signal
Start (REV) signal is wired to Q2 with +12VDC signal
Constant speed 1 is wired to Q3 with +12VDC signal
Constant speed 2 is wired to Q4 with +12VDC signal

At the top of the LOGO!:
I1 is +24VDC signal from the tumble relay
I2 is +24VDC signal from the spin relay

Logic(from LOGO! to VFD):

For tumble:
Q1=high
Q2=low
Q3=high
Q4=low

To stop: Q1=low


For spin:
Q1=high
Q2=low
Q3=low
Q4=high

To stop: Q1=low


Post# 565812 , Reply# 145   12/29/2011 at 16:19 (4,472 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

Now! I need logic from the machine to tell the LOGO! what to do. For that I use 2 more relays with 110V coils. These relays act on the contactors that power the VFD and drain pump. The coils are powered by the actions of the contactors, but these two relays switch LVDC going to the inputs of the LOGO!.

Post# 565813 , Reply# 146   12/29/2011 at 16:21 (4,472 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

I could have used the extra terminals in the contactors to do this, but I make it a point to isolate the DC signals from the AC signals!

Post# 565818 , Reply# 147   12/29/2011 at 16:41 (4,472 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

They are labeled accordingly.

Logic(input to LOGO!):
Tumble relay = high = I1: high
Spin relay = high = I2: high

tumble sequence:
I1 = high
I2 = low

spin sequence:
I1 = high
I2 = high

nothing:
I1 = low
I2 = low

I1 = low
I2 = high


Post# 565884 , Reply# 148   12/29/2011 at 23:29 (4,472 days old) by qualin (Canada)        

Are you still going to use the original timer which came with the machine? I'm confused because you are using a PLC, but wouldn't the timer be enough to send the right signals to the VFD? Couldn't the PLC just be replaced with relay logic?

Stupid question, I know.. but this is downright fascinating.


Post# 565886 , Reply# 149   12/29/2011 at 23:58 (4,472 days old) by tolivac (greenville nc)        

I like how this project unfolds-peice at a time-won't ask questions until Melvin completes it.

Post# 565918 , Reply# 150   12/30/2011 at 07:22 (4,471 days old) by 1966_mustang ()        

Man you have done ALOT of work on this...How are you going to couple the pump up?

Also I see you use alot of 3 pahes AC motors with variable frequency drives....could you have also used a DC motor? I mean bridge the AC with some heavy diodes then put it through some caps, and then run a PWM DC motor speed control would this work as well?

Very interesting project! Keep up the good work


Post# 566009 , Reply# 151   12/30/2011 at 19:14 (4,471 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

Qualin:
Yes, Use the original timer for the other operations of the machine. Yes, I could have used just relay logic with timed relays and the such for signaling the VFD, however I want to be able to change the tumble and spin sequences. Using just the relay logic won't allow me to do that as easily, also remember that I have removed the speed changing gear motor. The current modification does not include the leg switch for detecting out of balance conditions. The PLC will allow me to incorporate that feature with just some wiring and a programming change. If you have anymore questions, just post them. We will step through them!

1966_mustang:
For the pump, it has its own contactor, if you look above to post# 562708. The original motor was reversible. I use the wire to make the motor reverse during spin and condense to fire the contactor for the pump. As I now remember, I'll have to rewire it as I am also using these same lines to supply the pump, when I really just want to use the wire fire the contactor,and the supply to the pump should come direct from the terminal block of the machine.

You bring up a good point about using a DC motor. Building my own controller for it is quite involved. There are several ways to do it. Interestingly, a friend and I are currently working on building a controller for a zero-torque 3 phase BLDC motor. For the phase switching, one could use an H-bridge, as it already has the transistors and the diodes to protect them. You can also use a circuit of 3 MOSFETS, or a circuit of 6 MOSFETS, use a massive Bridge rectifier and capacitor bank so that the supply stays constant under load. Then use a micro controller like a PIC 18 or arduino to fire the MOSFETS. The problem of the BLDC motor is that you have to know when to fire the MOSFETS. This is dependent on the rotation position of the motor. The rotation position is always subject to change due to load. If the firing of the MOSFETS or IGBTs is not on cue with the rotation position, you get a break-down in speed and a stalled motor. To correct this problem, you can use a hall-effect sensor, or go the vector-less approach. The vector-less approach is is somewhat complicated, as you have to detect the zero-crossing moment as the shaft of the motor rotates. This involves building a low-pass filter that is good enough to discard the other noise, due to the switching frequency of the MOSFETS, spikes, and other transients that ride in the system. Then you must detect the zero-crossing moment in the bief moment that the MOSFETS, IGBTs are switched off and the motor becomes a generator. Take that signal, convert it to a digital signal that the micro-controller can deal with, then fire the MOSFETS, IGBTs appropritely. Use a capacitor switching circuit to start the motor.

It is very possible to do this, but complicated. For that, baby steps first. I do small-scale implementation first, then tackle a project building a controller for say a 1hp TEFC BLDC motor.


Post# 566036 , Reply# 152   12/31/2011 at 01:52 (4,471 days old) by qualin (Canada)        

Melvin,

What on Earth do you do for a living that you know all of this stuff?


Post# 566054 , Reply# 153   12/31/2011 at 04:31 (4,470 days old) by chestermikeuk (Rainhill *Home of the RailwayTrials* Merseyside,UK)        
Motor Controller

chestermikeuk's profile picture
Wow, admiring your ingenuity and perseverance with the GE project Melvin, you make it look so easy, looking forward to seeing the lessons completed.....maths and electrical conversion stats are not my thing but cant wait for the water testing...

Cheers, Mike



Post# 566089 , Reply# 154   12/31/2011 at 10:51 (4,470 days old) by 1966_mustang ()        

I know I fool around with motor controllers my self. Three pase ac motor controllers are expensive and complicated to build. My background is EV world. There are pluses to both AC and DC motor systems.. Treadmills I know uses DC motors. AC over does not buy you that much effececy as DC. Now on a smaller scale like the RC hobby stuff. BLDC motors are more effiecent than PM DC motors. But as power of the application goes up, Field wound DC motors become as attractive as AC motors.

I personally like using DC controllers when at all possible, uses only one Silicon device and free wheeling diode, instead of 6 silicon devices like AC.

good luck keep us posted...even if I never find my 60's whirlpool machine (which is what it looking like), I like looking at what your doing..


Post# 566188 , Reply# 155   12/31/2011 at 21:35 (4,470 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

166_mustang:
I think you will find your machine eventually. You may have to look harder, It will turn up. Then it is just a matter of distance and what you are willing to do in order to get it to you. For Field wound DC motors, are you talking about Field circuit + brush circuit?

ChesterMikeuk:
So far it has been easy, you just think it out. The hard part as I'm finding out is using the software for the LOGO! I was trained on Allen Bradley SLC 500 and compact logix 5000. The software for the LOGO! is a bit different, and it has its own unique set of quirks that I have to get used to.

Qualin:
been playing with motors, electricity since ~5 years old. Working on my college degrees now.


Post# 567206 , Reply# 156   1/5/2012 at 22:05 (4,465 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        
Success!!!

It walks, talks, kicks, poops, and pees! Need to make a minor change in the program. Need to change some settings in the VFD to properly reflect the load. Have another idea i'm going to implement.

Post# 567254 , Reply# 157   1/6/2012 at 05:09 (4,464 days old) by toploader55 (Massachusetts Sand Bar, Cape Cod)        
Congratulations !!!

toploader55's profile picture
Can't wait to see it running. Eddie


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