Thread Number: 37451
Why was Frigidaires Agitator Design Abandoned? |
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Post# 556717 , Reply# 1   11/15/2011 at 07:25 (4,539 days old) by norgeway (mocksville n c )   |   | |
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It was because WCI could build that junk they replaced it with for about half what it cost to build a 1-18. |
Post# 556718 , Reply# 2   11/15/2011 at 07:35 (4,539 days old) by LordKenmore (The Laundry Room)   |   | |
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I'm not the expert some are here. But my guess is that WCI (Frigidaire buyer) did it to cut costs. I have had the opportunity to use a ca. 1990 WCI Frigidaire washer twice (two different washers), and they certainly struck me as being cheap. Even the second of the two which had upgraded features that clearly made it better than bottom of the line. In comparison, a Whirlpool direct drive washer--even one of today, let alone 1990--seems like Miele quality.
I think others avoided taking over the design because they'd already invested so much in whatever design they already had. It's easier to stick with what you know, and just refine it. Plus some might have looked at Frigidaire's system, and decided for whatever reason it wasn't a great idea for the future. For example: possibly too expensive to make in an increasingly competitive market. |
Post# 556722 , Reply# 3   11/15/2011 at 07:54 (4,539 days old) by peteski50 (New York)   |   | |
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The origional plan was that when WCI bought Frigidaire they were supposed to have production moved to a site of their own. They bought it to actually improve on their own products. Production continued at GM for nearly 2 years after the sale. WCI wanted to sell back frigidaire to GM during that time realizing it would be a cost factor to move the factories. In fact the relationship between the two companies was not good. WCI than made the decision to pull out and utilize their own garbage and continue the frigidaire name. They were the loosers in the long run because the name became trash. They had Gold in their hand and flushed it down the toilet. They should have moved some of the factories and at least kept the laundry and refrigation / AC going. If you think about it they had 3 other companies white westinghouse, kelvinator and gibson. Now what did they need a 4th name to do the same thing. It would have even been worth it to have dropped one of these other companies to save frigidaire. Their stupidy made them big loosers in the long run. Its to bad Electrolux didnt come along sooner because they never would have bought the company in the first place unless they were going to do something good with it.
Peter |
Post# 556735 , Reply# 4   11/15/2011 at 08:45 (4,539 days old) by jetcone (Schenectady-Home of Calrods,Monitor Tops,Toroid Transformers)   |   | |
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I spoke with an engineer at Frigidaire because I wanted to buy my Mom a new 1-18 machine and there weren't any left. He told me GM decided to sell to WCI because the plant that produced appliances had to be complelely refitted. All the manufacturing machinery was 40 years old at the time and worn out. GM decided not to reinvest so the name was sold to WCI, the physical plant stayed with GM , was cleaned out and refitted to build the Chevy LUV trucks at the time. All that molding, stamping machinery was scrapped! WCI wasn't going to take on remaking it, so they rebadged their current Westinghouse line as Frigidaire.
When he told me this I remarked how well the Jet Action agitator worked, he said take a look at the new Frigidaire with the indexing tub, "it has the same turbidity rate" as our old Jet Action machine" direct quote. |
Post# 556742 , Reply# 5   11/15/2011 at 09:08 (4,539 days old) by peteski50 (New York)   |   | |
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Jon the GM frigidaire line was continued until the end of 1980. Production contunied at the plants under a contract WCI had with GM when the purchase was made. The plans were actually put in place to have the factories moved. And new equipment was Supposed to be made to continue production. Under the contract WCI paid GM to continue to make tha appliances until the move could be made. WCI paid 120 million to buy the company and than flush it. Unfourtinatly WCI just decided to pull out when the contract was up.
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Post# 556752 , Reply# 7   11/15/2011 at 09:57 (4,539 days old) by revvinkevin (Tinseltown - Shakey Town - La-La Land)   |   | |
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Jon said "...the Frigidaire plant stayed with GM.... was cleaned out and refitted to build the Chevy LUV trucks...."
Unless GM was building their appliances in Japan, that is not correct. The Chevy LUV truck was a re-badged ("badge engineered") Isuzu pickup (called the "Faster" in Japan) and was ALWAYS built in Japan and imported to the US (from 1972 to 1982). It was never built here in the US.
Kevin CLICK HERE TO GO TO revvinkevin's LINK |
Post# 556780 , Reply# 8   11/15/2011 at 11:43 (4,539 days old) by mrb627 (Buford, GA)   |   | |
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Post# 556783 , Reply# 9   11/15/2011 at 12:13 (4,539 days old) by D-Jones (Western Pennsylvania (Pittsburgh Area))   |   | |
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Hey qualin. I've seen that video before and as you say, it looks like the Frigidaire is hopelessly overloaded if not otherwise tampered with. Anyone familiar with the product would quickly recognize that, which is almost certainly the reason that comments weren't allowed. The guy that made it knew he would get called on it so he simply disabled them. I remember the old "Theirs work hard, ours work harder" add campaign of the 70's very well, and as a kid after seeing that commercial one time I walked onto our back porch where the Frigidaire was in the midst of doing a load, lifted the lid and watched it work for a while. What I saw was identical to what was shown in that commercial, not this guys cheesy video, and having never really given any thought to the different types of washing machine agitators before, I left the back porch thoroughly impressed. If those machines were still available I'd buy one today.
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Post# 556785 , Reply# 10   11/15/2011 at 12:15 (4,539 days old) by jetcone (Schenectady-Home of Calrods,Monitor Tops,Toroid Transformers)   |   | |
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for the correction, the guy who told me that was obviously wrong in 1979. So I don't know what they built in that plant after 1980. Are you sure Peter, I tried to buy a Frigidaire washer in 1979 towards the end and no one had any of the 1-18's left! Maybe it was a regional thing, NE got stiffed again. Like with Speed Queen. |
Post# 556786 , Reply# 11   11/15/2011 at 12:16 (4,539 days old) by jetcone (Schenectady-Home of Calrods,Monitor Tops,Toroid Transformers)   |   | |
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" IF research and development had not been stifled by the auto industry and the petroleum industry through the whores they bought in congress, we would not be dependent on petroleum like we are today, pollution would be less and our national economy would be better because not only would we not be paying so much at the pump, we would not need to have our military ensuring stability in petroleum producing countries which costs untold billions." |
Post# 556789 , Reply# 12   11/15/2011 at 12:26 (4,539 days old) by gansky1 (Omaha, The Home of the TV Dinner!)   |   | |
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Frigidaire appliances - sold and closed up by August 1979
Link is to a thread in 2009 and the research I found then. We need to plan a pilgrimage to the Frigidaire Collection Archives but it appears the last entry into those records was early 1980. CLICK HERE TO GO TO gansky1's LINK |
Post# 556803 , Reply# 13   11/15/2011 at 13:53 (4,538 days old) by revvinkevin (Tinseltown - Shakey Town - La-La Land)   |   | |
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Post# 556806 , Reply# 14   11/15/2011 at 14:14 (4,538 days old) by arbilab (Ft Worth TX (Ridglea))   |   | |
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Apparently it was an era of mismanagement coming to harvest. According to Pittsburgh Gazette, Westinghouse lost their appliance division to White similarly. The plants were allowed to age without putting anything back into them, until they were not competitive. Fixing them all at once would cost too much for sales volume to pay it back.
GE kicked Westinghouse's butt in appliance volume all along. AFAIK, W'house never sold to builders like GE/Hotpoint did. I don't even remember a W'house line of build-ins, definitely never saw one in any neighbor's house. Our last family house was F'daire all around, the two before that Hotpoint. |
Post# 556842 , Reply# 16   11/15/2011 at 16:12 (4,538 days old) by sudsmaster (SF Bay Area, California)   |   | |
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I believe the video in the link is by our own Jason... who must be something of a Kenmore advocate... as I recall... I think he made it tongue-in-cheek, in response to the popularity of the GM Frigidaire design. Which I think is a great design, but not without its flaws, like any complex manufactured product.
Regarding GM's handling of their appliance division. That the auto division was subsidizing the appliance division sort of makes sense. Back in the day, the husband could go out and buy a new GM car, and at the same time get his wife a kitchen full of GM appliances. Thereby avoiding some antagonism in the marriage ("He only gets the things HE wants" turning into "Look at the fabulous GM kitchen he got me!"). |
Post# 556848 , Reply# 17   11/15/2011 at 16:44 (4,538 days old) by Supersuds (Knoxville, Tenn.)   |   | |
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The NYT article confirms something I remember hearing at the time, that GM-Frigidaire's wage rates were higher than the rest of the appliance industry.
That doesn't explain why White Consolidated wouldn't want to continue the design elsewhere. Perhaps it was more expensive to make even with equivalent wages. Re Westinghouse plants being outmoded, wasn't the generic WCI toploader a Westy design originally? Did they move the production from Mansfield, Ohio immediately? From what you hear about WCI they wouldn't spend a nickel on development in those days. It would be surprising if they laid out the money for new tooling for an existing design. |
Post# 556856 , Reply# 18   11/15/2011 at 17:40 (4,538 days old) by goatfarmer (South Bend, home of Champions)   |   | |
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The up and down action of the Frigidaire washer might have given a better wash, but it was also more trouble prone. This is from someone who worked on probably a hundred of these machines under warranty in the 70's. The bellows seal was a weak spot, saw many punctured by a nail, or a paper clip left in a pocket. Or they simply failed, and leaked water on the bearings. We never had less than 2 or 3 in the shop at any one time. That's a lot of warranty claims GM was paying out.
They were inexpensive to buy, compared to a similar Maytag, or Whirlpool built machine. So there should be a lot of them out there. But how many do you see, compared to the other machines? Not near as many, which means they met their demise early, while the others churned on. |
Post# 556860 , Reply# 19   11/15/2011 at 18:05 (4,538 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md)   |   | |
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Peter maybe when WCI agreed to buy they thought that they would continue the GM appliance designs [ I don't believe they did want to continue them ] but they soon came to thier senses and canned them. For many of the good reasons listed here , high wage costs, old out moded factories, very expensive machines to build that required a lot of engineering expertise to make work. I would wager that GE or WP would have had trouble making the 1-18 washer work and MT would never been able to make such a highly engineered design work.
All the companies that WCI bought were in trouble, yes they all made some very good products at one time, but none would likely have survived on thier own much longer.
Westinghouse was a very big brand for builders in the Washington DC area in the 1950s-in to the 1960s, but thier appliances delovoped such a crappy reputation by the end of the 1960s and into the early 1970s that builders often found it harder to sell new houses when people saw the WH labels on the new kitchen appliances. Levett built over 30,000 new houses here in Prince George's Co. Maryland from 1959-1974-5. They used all WH appliances till about 1963-4 when they switched to GE as GE had much better Electric cooking appliances and laundry at that time to say nothing of the great GE refrigerators that were built in the 1960s.
I remember when WCI said that they would bury WP and other US appliance companies in the early 1980s, and we just laughed. Now even though I still feel that thier new\ appliances are still a cut below WPs and GEs they have become number 2 or 3 in the US appliance market and are making money. I hate to admit it but thier strategy seems to have worked. |
Post# 556870 , Reply# 20   11/15/2011 at 18:42 (4,538 days old) by Tomturbomatic (Beltsville, MD)   |   | |
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"GM...was unwilling to expand its product line in order to achieve the efficiency levels that would have made it worth keeping." Frigidaire had a full line of appliances: air conditioners to washers and everything in between. |
Post# 556901 , Reply# 21   11/15/2011 at 21:18 (4,538 days old) by arbilab (Ft Worth TX (Ridglea))   |   | |
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+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
wasn't the generic WCI toploader a Westy design originally +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ I don't think so. I remember hearing it was actually an Easy but I can't substantiate that today. It was our last machine as I was leaving home. Before that we shortly had a squarefront Westy (potato pulley) but mom kicked it out of the house when the warranty expired. That was roughly a 64 and as above W'house's reputation was sliding by then. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Westinghouse was a very big brand for builders +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Our distributor may not have been very aggressive. Or the Dallas market just didn't matter. These houses/neighborhoods were built in 1953, 1956, 1963 and I never saw W'house built ins. For that matter, our F'daire was an exception. Those bitchin Flair ovens with solid glass doors that opened vertically. |
Post# 556902 , Reply# 22   11/15/2011 at 21:21 (4,538 days old) by Jetcone (Schenectady-Home of Calrods,Monitor Tops,Toroid Transformers)   |   | |
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Post# 556903 , Reply# 23   11/15/2011 at 21:33 (4,538 days old) by peteski50 (New York)   |   | |
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I am quite sure GM made the appliances until the end of 1980. I dont think it was a regional thing but maybe it was - here in NY appliance stores had regular shipments from GM comming in even though WCI owned the company. In mid 1980 I was told GM was going to stop production at the end of the year and WCI would be making the stuff in their own plants. In facts at that time no one I knew in the appliance industry knew what was going to happen. WCI said they were making changes and improvements to the designs and distribution will start in Jan 1981 and in this area that is when it started. I remember going in one appliance outlet on a very cold day and was shocked to see what came in. I said to one sales person - is this for real?
And if WCI continued with GM designs and made the right moves they could have burried all the other companies. I also remember after the pull out from GM the frigidaire stock went down to nothing. I will try to locate some articles I have. Peter |
Post# 556919 , Reply# 25   11/15/2011 at 22:14 (4,538 days old) by peteski50 (New York)   |   | |
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This was one article I had had:
Bob Connor from Pittsburgh, PA sez... Destroying electric cars seems like an act only a stupid company would do but this is not the first time GM made a good product that they didn't want to public to keep. I know some people who have a hobby of collecting and restoring home appliances. I don't buy the argument from GM that nobody would make parts for the EV1s that people wanted to buy. Until 1980 GM had their home appliance division, Frigidaire. GM Frigidaire kitchen and laundry appliances were among the most innovative made at the time and usually of high quality, some are still going today. No, you cannot get parts for GM Frigidaire appliances now and today GM pretends that they never existed (Today's Frigidaire appliances are made by another company and are considered a "budget" brand). GM shut down Frigidaire on December 26, 1980 so the employees in Dayton got unemployment for Christmas. What I am saying is that this is a much bigger blunder than getting rid of Frigidaire and GM deserves to go bankrupt because of it. I cannot figure out who in their right mind would buy Anything from this company. The only reason I think they do well in the Pittsburgh area: We have a lot of seniors who have good memories of the Chevys and Buicks they drove in the 50s, and a lot of funeral homes that like Cadillac. GM also screwed up when they wanted people to get an expensive charger for the car. Why could an electric car not be recharged by a 220 volt electric dryer outlet found in most homes? That way you would recharge after doing the laundry! Even if you didn't have this outlet an electrician could add one for about 200 dollars. But please don't charge near that much for the DVD, charge less than most movies as the message is more important than the one about the "Lake House". [7/14/2006 12:30:28 AM] |
Post# 556935 , Reply# 26   11/16/2011 at 00:03 (4,538 days old) by gansky1 (Omaha, The Home of the TV Dinner!)   |   | |
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I remember the first time I saw the WCI machines, June 1980. I was 14 and rode the bus to my father's in Detroit Lakes, MN. While he was working, I wandered the downtown and annoyed the appliance dealers, scoped out coin laundries (big resort town so there several large stores) and played around the beach. There were two good-sized appliance & TV stores, one had Frigidaire and the other Hotpoint. I recall seeing many Frigidaire appliances at relatives, etc. around that area. I was stunned to open that all-too familiar Westinghouse shaped window-lid and seeing that agitator. I followed the brochures closely for the next few years and knew all hope was lost when WCI made the plastic-basket with curved-fin agitators and a four port shower fill. Ugh.
Westinghouse builder sales; somewhere I have a builder's catalog for Westy appliances so they did market to the trade but I only remember only a couple of apartment complexes that had Westinghouse. They had the slide out, Flair style ranges and BOL, single knob dishwashers with only a wire basket to hold & dispense detergent in the silverware basket. All coppertone. |
Post# 556947 , Reply# 28   11/16/2011 at 03:51 (4,538 days old) by qualin (Canada)   |   | |
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Thanks for the input everyone. |
Post# 556963 , Reply# 29   11/16/2011 at 06:47 (4,538 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md)   |   | |
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Hi Rex I am going to disagree about there being a choice of WH or GE apps being available in Levett homes. I worked on major appliances in that community for more than 15 years 1975-1990 and never saw a single house that had WH apps built after 1963, so if there was a choice every single buyer made the better choice to get GE LOL. Remember Levett offered almost no choices or changes other than colors in the fast building of these houses. |
Post# 556975 , Reply# 30   11/16/2011 at 07:59 (4,538 days old) by Supersuds (Knoxville, Tenn.)   |   | |
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Post# 557013 , Reply# 31   11/16/2011 at 11:07 (4,538 days old) by mrb627 (Buford, GA)   |   | |
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Post# 557059 , Reply# 34   11/16/2011 at 14:22 (4,537 days old) by peteski50 (New York)   |   | |
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Post# 557062 , Reply# 35   11/16/2011 at 14:28 (4,537 days old) by peteski50 (New York)   |   | |
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Post# 557063 , Reply# 36   11/16/2011 at 14:30 (4,537 days old) by gansky1 (Omaha, The Home of the TV Dinner!)   |   | |
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Post# 557071 , Reply# 37   11/16/2011 at 15:06 (4,537 days old) by peteski50 (New York)   |   | |
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I got this awhile ago (Frigidaire Historian Collection) - If you notice on page 8 it states various dates contained in the literature that end in 1980. I wish I could see the literature. It would be exciting to go through!
CLICK HERE TO GO TO peteski50's LINK |
Post# 557082 , Reply# 39   11/16/2011 at 16:18 (4,537 days old) by goatfarmer (South Bend, home of Champions)   |   | |
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NorfolkSouthern, you say that your machine is still a champ, and hasn't needed any repairs. Well, yeah, because you say it's used carefully for the lighter loads. I would say that if it were used like a typical family in the 70's used their washer, the outcome might be a bit different.
BTW, is that the green one you got from me several years ago? |
Post# 557084 , Reply# 40   11/16/2011 at 16:36 (4,537 days old) by macboy91si (Frankfort, KY)   |   | |
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And 3 cars with 6 transmissions, I hope they weren't GM! Since the brand used the GM relationship so heavily, I don't think it's a great advertisement to anything. Cute ad, but I'm not sure where it's going? Also the tag line: "Frigidaire- Here Today, Here Tomorrow" and possibly only tomorrow as was published in June of 1980.
-Tim |
Post# 557097 , Reply# 41   11/16/2011 at 18:57 (4,537 days old) by steved (Guilderland, New York)   |   | |
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My earliest post-GM Frigidaire full-line catalogue is dated 04/80, with all the WCI clones. Plus I have issue # 1000 of Tech-Tips with WCI listed on the back from April 1980. |
Post# 557109 , Reply# 43   11/16/2011 at 19:43 (4,537 days old) by peteski50 (New York)   |   | |
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Steve I dont dispute the catalogue and Tech-Tips with WCI were dated April 1980. They were making their own designs behind the scenes at that time. Lets not forget the horrible immations that were made and how they tried to pass off their cheap stuff saying it was as good as GM quility. I just know in my area nothing was actually released to the market until Jan 1981.
It's to bad instead of making immations and look a likes they could have just moved the factories and have had a good thing going. |
Post# 557112 , Reply# 44   11/16/2011 at 19:53 (4,537 days old) by sudsmaster (SF Bay Area, California)   |   | |
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The way in which I was able to enjoy using a GM Frigidaire washer in the mid-1960's was totally by chance.
We had moved into a flat on the east slope of Parnassus Avenue in SF. The landlord and his family lived upstairs. He said his wife got tired of the washer and they put it down on the ground level, in the garage area, on a little landing. It was turquoise, and I've been able to identify it by my memory of the green rubber agitator cap as being a late 1950's model. Anyway, one of its quirks was that it could very easily become unbalanced, trip the cutoff switch, and then I'd come down expecting my load to be finished and have to restart it. The landlord said it had always been a problem, and that they had it repaired several times but it still had trouble with spins. So she banished it to what amounted to the basement, and I assume he got her some other better behaved brand to replace it in their flat. In the washer's defense, I never really read the owner's manual (hey, I was about 13 years old) and didn't follow the "sectioning" advice it most likely contained. Also I would load it with everything from my room: twin bed sheets, pants, shirts, underwear, towels, the works. All in one load. Usually the pants and the sheets would twist into rope, and that probably exacerbated the spin balance issue. Still it was fascinating to watch it in action. I spent many hours down there watching it go. The turnover was always great. It wasn't until we were about to move out (we stayed there a year) that my brother showed me how you could pull off that rubber cap and add detergent. I had just been adding the detergent to the laundry,. Never did know about the lint filter in there, either. Of course I'd love to have that machine today. Who knows what eventually happened to it. I still know the building where we lived... maybe it's still there... ;-) |
Post# 557154 , Reply# 46   11/17/2011 at 00:56 (4,537 days old) by tolivac (greenville nc)   |   | |
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I was there when the salesman offered the appliance choices to my Mom-The neighbors next to her chose the Westinghouse package.and the choices were in the Levitt sales literature that was given to my mom.we all read thru it. |
Post# 557163 , Reply# 47   11/17/2011 at 02:57 (4,537 days old) by arbilab (Ft Worth TX (Ridglea))   |   | |
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