Thread Number: 37593
Swedish Electrolux EWC-1350 help needed... 		[Down to Last]

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Post# 558992   11/24/2011 at 18:27 (4,398 days old) by bellalaundry (St. Catharines, Ontario, Canada)        

Hi guys...yesterday I picked up one of these supposedly new in the box.

Very cute size, 3 kg, easy to move around! So when I unpacked it, and went to remove the shipping bolts, they were already removed (I'm glad I moved it upright). So I looked in the back of the detergent drawer and did notice a little detergent residue.

So I read the manual and set it up and pluged it into my 220v line (the one I use for other orphan European washers) and followed the instructions to get it going.

Well it won't go. I set the programme, then set the spin speed, then press power button. The light that tells you that the wash is done (flashing light) just flashes. No door lock, no water, no sounds...

I guess I know why they wanted to get rid of it. Do the flashes indicate errors? It does flash 11 times and then rests before repeating.

Dissapointed, but not giving up! Maybe it needs a control board? Any help or suggestions are appreciated.

The pic is a generic.

Guy

Post# 558998 , Reply# 1   11/24/2011 at 19:22 (4,398 days old) by thomasortega (El Pueblo de Nuestra Señora de Los Angeles de Porciúncula)        

I just asked a colleague to find me the service manuals for it... I'll keep you posted.

Post# 559000 , Reply# 2   11/24/2011 at 19:24 (4,398 days old) by bellalaundry (St. Catharines, Ontario, Canada)        
Thank you,

 Thanks alot! I forgot...didn't you work for Electrolux at one time?

Don't you just hate when people sell you things that are not easily tested, but don't work?

Guy

Post# 559037 , Reply# 3   11/25/2011 at 03:09 (4,398 days old) by dj-gabriele ()        

I bet that could happen because it is designed for 220/240V - 50 Hz and not 60 Hz. If the machine is even only partly electronic, it will get seriously messed up!
And at best, the motor and pump will overheat and run faster than normal.

Plus the 220V feed from a North American supply (unless you have something different) are phase to phase and not phase to neutral, that also might be a problem for the machine to handle

Oh, BTW, that machine there is on sale here for 634€ if you want a new one ;) eheheh

Post# 559054 , Reply# 4   11/25/2011 at 07:57 (4,398 days old) by bellalaundry (St. Catharines, Ontario, Canada)        
Oh, oh...

 Well as far as I can tell, the machine is totally electronic. I don't have any trouble with the other AEG I have, but it is totally mechanical.

I had no idea that the 50/60 hertz would affect the electronics. I realized the motor and pump would work slightly faster, but it wasn't going to be a daily driver.

My electrician has wired a special outlet that I can use my 220v stuff (a couple of vacuums and a washer). I just never thought that circuit boards would care about the hertz.

Guy

Post# 559261 , Reply# 5   11/25/2011 at 21:58 (4,397 days old) by thomasortega (El Pueblo de Nuestra Señora de Los Angeles de Porciúncula)        

I got the results...

You got issues.

This machine's board works strictly on 50Hz.

Actually, it's not a malfunction. The machine is working great as designed. The board has an internal protection system to prevent consumers that insist on connecting them to the wrong voltage/cycle.

Replacing the board won't help too.


Maybe, with lots of lucky, i can ask my colleagues to let me get a 127v 60hz board for it, but you'll have to replace the motor, drain pump, door lock and water inlet solenoids too.


This machine is great and I also found they cute. The previous version is even more interesting and fun to use.

Electrolux tested it to launch in Brazil after the world crisis made all of the european export taxes drop like a ton of lead. Unfortunately the brazilian government increased the import taxes to protect the local industry and the idea had to be stored in the freezer.

Post# 559262 , Reply# 6   11/25/2011 at 22:27 (4,397 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

Oh wow! This is the machine I've been looking for!!!!

bellalaundry:
There are a few options you can do here:
1.refit the machine
2.either buy or build a frequency converter
3.buy a 12VDC to 220VAC 50Hz inverter

Just make sure the inverter you get is big enough

CLICK HERE TO GO TO supremewhirlpol's LINK on eBay


Post# 559281 , Reply# 7   11/26/2011 at 03:49 (4,397 days old) by dj-gabriele ()        

Bellalaundry:

remember that your machine is self-heating so if you're going to connect it with an inverter or rotary converter, you need one that can supply at least 2500 VA, otherwise as soon as the machine will turn on the heater it will blow out your frequency converter!

Honestly except the novelty factor you're not losing anything. Electrolux machines aren't that great as one can think!

Post# 559312 , Reply# 8   11/26/2011 at 07:46 (4,397 days old) by bellalaundry (St. Catharines, Ontario, Canada)        
Well,

 from where I stand now, I think I like the sound of Supreme's idea of getting a power inverter (I had no idea these things existed!)

So after looking at the link, I am wonding where do I get the 12 volt power supply from? I am fine spending the extra cash for the inverter, but what else do I need to get? Do I have to have a car battery in the laundry room??!!

Since I'm already in $250 dollars on the machine, I just have to get it going for a least a while!

Thomas...I must be one of those customers that Elux is talking about!

Thanks all, I really thought I may have ended up with a 50 kg door stop!

Guy

Post# 559318 , Reply# 9   11/26/2011 at 08:28 (4,397 days old) by dj-gabriele ()        
Inverter

 Guy: don't even think using that inverter on the link with the washing machine, you need the power of three of those to run the washer! :) Unless you're going to deactivate the heater in the machine (but then, being electronic, it will refuse to progress the cycle) it will blow the inverter in no time.

I told you, you need at least a 2500VA frequency converter! (VA is the analogous of Watt for apparent power)


Post# 559322 , Reply# 10   11/26/2011 at 09:13 (4,397 days old) by bellalaundry (St. Catharines, Ontario, Canada)        
Thanks for

the warning. I found a 2000 watt inverter on Ebay. But I intend on using it with my laundry room faucet, and setting the temperature at the tap (always warm or hot). Then I would set the machine to a 30c wash.

The machine is labeled as 1600 watts not including the heater.

Guy

Post# 559345 , Reply# 11   11/26/2011 at 10:00 (4,397 days old) by brummybear (Birmingham uk)        
110v 60hz to 220-240v 50hz step up transformers.

 brummybear's profile picture
Hello there,

it is quite possible to step up the voltage from 110v 60hz to 220v 50hz. I do not know about the price but thort this link might be usefull.



CLICK HERE TO GO TO brummybear's LINK
Post# 559346 , Reply# 12   11/26/2011 at 10:01 (4,397 days old) by brummybear (Birmingham uk)        
Rating plate,

 brummybear's profile picture
Could I have a pic of the rating plate please.

Post# 559355 , Reply# 13   11/26/2011 at 10:28 (4,397 days old) by bellalaundry (St. Catharines, Ontario, Canada)        
Hi

 Eean! Thanks for chiming in. I looked at the link you provided, and could not find one that you could switch to 50hz. I think those are for using on items that are not so dependent of hz, indicated by the 50/60 hz label reading.

I have found this one, now I have to fiqure out how to get the 12v supply to it!

Guy

CLICK HERE TO GO TO bellalaundry's LINK on eBay


Post# 559357 , Reply# 14   11/26/2011 at 10:37 (4,397 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

yeah the above link only steps up the voltage. There is nothing in that device that changes the frequency. If you want to operate the inverter you can use a car battery charger. It can't be the small dinky ones, as the bigger inverters like you are looking at purchasing need a good amount of current, especially at 12VDC. You need something like what is in the link below.

CLICK HERE TO GO TO supremewhirlpol's LINK
Post# 559364 , Reply# 15   11/26/2011 at 11:12 (4,397 days old) by bellalaundry (St. Catharines, Ontario, Canada)        
Holy Cow!

 that 12v power supply looks HUGE!

I calculated that at 220v supply and 1600watts for the machine, that comes out to 5.7 amps.

So...wouldn't the attached link 12v power supply be okay?

Guy

CLICK HERE TO GO TO bellalaundry's LINK
Post# 559367 , Reply# 16   11/26/2011 at 11:24 (4,397 days old) by dj-gabriele ()        
Nope!

 You need a power supply of at least 1600/12/0,8 = 167 Amps (to say the least!)

You need to factor 1600W at 12 V (133 amps)
Plus the power lost in the inverter and reactive power of the motor (I choose a coefficient of 0,8)

I told you. To be safe you need something capable of running a 2500VA load.
You'd have to search for a 220V-60Hz to 220V-50Hz frequency converter but those things cost quite a bit of money.

The easiest thing would be to use a switchable (or 50Hz) diesel generator that gives real sine wave 50Hz power and not the "rectified" sinusoidal (almost a square wave) that those wimpy inverter do.
The one I'm showing you in the link would be perfect for your application and it will be able to run any load indefinitely up to 2,4 kW (in fact any plug in appliance!)

CLICK HERE TO GO TO dj-gabriele's LINK on eBay


Post# 559368 , Reply# 17   11/26/2011 at 11:28 (4,397 days old) by dj-gabriele ()        
I calculated that at 220v supply and 1600watts for the machi

 How do you do that? It's not correct.

It is 1600W / 220V = 7,3 A

And please, just to make it sure you don't blow anything, could you post the rating plate? The data I gathered from electrolux differs from the one you gave us. :)

Post# 559373 , Reply# 18   11/26/2011 at 11:44 (4,397 days old) by cfz2882 (Belle Fourche,SD)        
motor

 what kind of motor does this washer use?if it's anything other than an induction
motor directly run from the mains,line HZ shouldn't matter-just need to figure a
way to fool the control electronics into thinking it's running 50hz...

Post# 559384 , Reply# 19   11/26/2011 at 13:04 (4,396 days old) by brummybear (Birmingham uk)        
generator and battery

 brummybear's profile picture
The generater would be the best option as a 12v car battery would only last minits as sutch a high load.

Post# 559386 , Reply# 20   11/26/2011 at 13:18 (4,396 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

inverters whimpy? really? depends on what you are trying to power with it, the quality of the inverter, where it is made, what you paid for it. Maybe bellalaundry is in over his head with the conversion. If that is the case, maybe you should stop this project while you are ahead? It would be great if you posted what the power requirements are for this machine. We don't know if this machine will with a different wiring/electricity configuration, as some foreign device require leg + neutral and not just leg + leg.

Post# 559421 , Reply# 21   11/26/2011 at 16:17 (4,396 days old) by bellalaundry (St. Catharines, Ontario, Canada)        
Absoulutely

 over my head.

Guy

Post# 559422 , Reply# 22   11/26/2011 at 16:21 (4,396 days old) by ronhic (Canberra, Australia)        

ronhic's profile picture

Just as an aside, if you do go down the inverter/generator route you'll be able to have just about any modern European or Australian appliance you like from anywhere you can get it.....

 

Australian domestic appliances run 230V @ 10 amp maximum....
Post# 559525 , Reply# 23   11/26/2011 at 22:09 (4,396 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

Guy/bellalaundry:
What's your next move? Maybe us members here can maybe simplify things for you?

Post# 559529 , Reply# 24   11/26/2011 at 22:20 (4,396 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        
Power Generators and Inverters

 launderess's profile picture
Went through this with my Pfaff ironer early on (requires 3.05 kW/50hz @ 220v/50hz).

Unit runs on 60hz well enough and was designed to be sold/used all over the world so *whatever* 220v power source (American 2 wire vs European 1 wire system and so forth)will power the unit. There is even a method of adjusting the speed of the roller to compensate for changes that would occur when using the unit in either 50hz or 60hz situations.

As for voltage both our Miele repairman, Miele's technicans and our electrican explained the rules.

For things such as washing machines and other appliances with large motors, heating requiremnts etc one needs a converter at least *twice* to *three* times the maximum load. Otherwise one will simply burn out the unit which should ever exceed using 1/3 to 1/2 of it's rating.

In the USA the largest units sold for domestic use top out at around 10,000 watts or more and *must* be hardwired into an outlet.

The problem with washers,dryers and other items with heaters that draw high amounts of power is that they can do so for sustained periods. Think about a washer heating cold tap water to 140F or even 195F. That is going to require some time. If the unit is plugged into the proper rated electrical socket this isn't a problem. However running such a thing off a converter and or inverter means that unit must work very hard for a very long time. This could create conditions leading to an electrical fire. If nothing else using a unit that is under powered for the job will simply cause it to burn out before it's time.

If you really want a headache, pipe:



CLICK HERE TO GO TO Launderess's LINK




This post was last edited 11/27/2011 at 01:35
Post# 559571 , Reply# 25   11/27/2011 at 01:04 (4,396 days old) by qualin (Canada)        

That leads me into a question then..

Would something from either one of these two companies do the job?

www.advancedpowercontrols.com/eaf...

www.50hz.com/Solid/solid.html#50...

I bet you'd need at least 3kVA to be safe, right?



Post# 559580 , Reply# 26   11/27/2011 at 01:28 (4,396 days old) by dj-gabriele ()        
using 1/3 to 1/2 of it's rating

 Not really! If the inverter is not Chinese crap it will sustain its rated load indefinitely so a 2kVA inverter will supply a 2kVA load indefinitely.

Maybe the technician from Miele was thinking about surge currents like when motors switch from washing to spinning. If that is the case consider that the motor is usually in the 300/400 Watts range and an inverter used on a washer has to sustain at least a load of 2500Watts so there's no problem in handling a surge current from such a small motor.

The heater, on the other hand, being a 100% resistive load, once connected, will "burn" always the same current regardless of where it is connected and the waveform or frequency supplied.

@Qualin

Yup, one of those two inverter can do the job nicely. The 3kVA one will supply nicely any domestic European appliance and some more but I guess that the price will be way higher than that of the washing machine!

Anyway, because of the cost and ability to sustain surge currents better than the solid state type I'd say that the diesel generator is a better idea. It's also easier to find a used one, just remember that the output should be 220/240V at 50Hz of course and that the sustained current must be of at least 10A! So you should be in the 2300/2500 VA range

Post# 559590 , Reply# 27   11/27/2011 at 01:41 (4,396 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        
Chinese C**P Converters

 launderess's profile picture
They are all pretty much the USA market has when it comes to step-up/step-down converters. There are some better versions on the market, these are sold to those who know and or for such bodies as the federal government including the military, embassy staff and such. Such units though tend to be *very* expensive and again if one is going at or >5kW should if not must be hardwired.

Motors and *surge currents*, yes that came up with Miele and others. Even using an appliance such as my ironer that has a motor can cause problems. Constant stopping and starting one was told would stress an improperly sized converter.

Post# 559639 , Reply# 28   11/27/2011 at 08:37 (4,396 days old) by bellalaundry (St. Catharines, Ontario, Canada)        
The

 quicker I can get rid of this, the faster I can move onto another project! My partner is quietly unhappy and I know there is a lesson in this for me!

I am lucky though, I still have a top load H-Axis AEG Lavamat that is totally mechanical and I can play with from time to time!

Guy

Post# 559657 , Reply# 29   11/27/2011 at 09:45 (4,396 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

gabriele:
From a practical perspective the Chinese ones do still serve their purpose as they are made to be used on light loads, or every once in a while. They a made cheap, and are cheap to buy. If you need one for a one use, emergency deal, it's the way to go. The output is not as clean. If want something with a cleaner output, you get a true sine-wave unit. The cost is significantly more, but better output. From what you say it sounds like you are looking for a long-term solution. One could purchase a frequency converter, but it would require hard-wiring it. The generator is more of a long-term solution, but not everyone has the space, or ability to maintain it. Solid-state power electronics in general are not as able to stand up to abuse are their counter parts. As long as people who use these devices keep that in mind, they should have no problem.

bella: maybe you could put it on ebay?

Post# 559658 , Reply# 30   11/27/2011 at 09:45 (4,396 days old) by foraloysius (Leeuwarden, Friesland, the Netherlands)        
Topload H-axis Lavamat

 foraloysius's profile picture
Guy, what model do you have?

Post# 559670 , Reply# 31   11/27/2011 at 10:08 (4,396 days old) by dj-gabriele ()        
@ supremewhirlpol

 You're right about what you said but with such a high load resistive + inductive with surge currents you risk in burning the inverter the first time you use it unless it is really able to hande what the machine requires

Post# 559690 , Reply# 32   11/27/2011 at 11:12 (4,396 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        
My brain must still be on vacation...

 I don't think Guy/bellalaundry ever posted the nameplate of this machine. I was going by that the heater would not be used. When I said the above statements, I was thinking inductive and small loads, like laptop power supplies, etc. You are VERY right about the resistive load part of this machine. If the heater is used its resistive load would require constant current all the time. Resistive loads are very demanding on the power source. I consider things with heaters to be a heavy load. Surge currents would be ok for the inverter to handle. Otherwise he would need a heavy duty inverter. BUT, if the machine was to be used on the warm or cold setting, would the heater still activate? I suppose that Guy could disconnect the heater, but he'd have the thermostat to deal with so that the machine could progress through the cycle.

Post# 560438 , Reply# 33   11/30/2011 at 16:24 (4,392 days old) by bellalaundry (St. Catharines, Ontario, Canada)        
I will be bringing

 the machine to the dump on the weekend. Lesson learned...no electronics for foreign machines!

The AEG Lavmat that I have and use sometimes is a Lavamat 240...the one that shakes around a lot on it's final spin. There are a couple of videos on Youtube that show the dancing around!

Guy

Post# 560441 , Reply# 34   11/30/2011 at 16:38 (4,392 days old) by foraloysius (Leeuwarden, Friesland, the Netherlands)        
Lavamat 240

 foraloysius's profile picture
Great machine! I have a Lavamat 220. I'm too familiar with the shaking of these machines!

Post# 560447 , Reply# 35   11/30/2011 at 17:41 (4,392 days old) by bellalaundry (St. Catharines, Ontario, Canada)        
Loius...

 I'm curious...are you able to find replacement control knobs? One of mine is missing!

Guy

Post# 560543 , Reply# 36   12/1/2011 at 03:24 (4,392 days old) by foraloysius (Leeuwarden, Friesland, the Netherlands)        

foraloysius's profile picture
I never needed one. Actually I never have come across one either. Which one is missing? And what color is your control panel, white or brown?

Eddy1210 here knows a repairman in Vancouver who repairs German appliances (mainly Miele and AEG), he might be able to help you. Eddy can give you his address.

Post# 560596 , Reply# 37   12/1/2011 at 08:54 (4,392 days old) by mrx ()        

While some older machines may survive on a US phase-to-phase 240V 60Hz supply, there is no guarantee that you will not cause problems as it is not what they're designed to be connected to.

European power is normally 230V 50Hz standardised within the following tolerances 230 V ± 6% at 50 Hz = 216.2 to 243.8 Volts

USA and Canada 120V ± 5% at 60 Hz or phase-to-phase ± 5%
= 228 to 252 Volts

So, if the machine's tolerances are finely tuned to European specs, it's possible that a constant US supply that was set a little high on the spec, could fry the circuitry.

Post# 560620 , Reply# 38   12/1/2011 at 11:38 (4,392 days old) by mrx ()        
Ah did a little more research!

 I did a little bit of googling and it seems Electrolux's European machines display error flashes in the form of hexadecimal codes. More modern machines have displays so do not need to flash codes in pulses.

So, instead of counting 0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12
Count: 0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,A,B,C,D,E,F

Error codes all start with "E" so, they just ignore E.

11 flashes = B
You need to count for 1,2 or 3 flashes after the 11 flashes for the finer detail.

So, the error code you're getting is

EB something..

EB1 = Incorrect mains frequency
EB2 = Mains voltage too high.
EB3 = Mains voltage too low.

Mains in standard English is the same as "line" in US English.

More info below:
So, Mains Frequency = Line Frequency.


CLICK HERE TO GO TO mrx's LINK
Post# 560624 , Reply# 39   12/1/2011 at 12:03 (4,391 days old) by mrx ()        
A bit of historical background :)

 Also, a lot of major appliances are not made as a universal design for the whole world as they may not be marketed worldwide.
Washing machines in general are quite market-specific and, in general, European machines are still made in Europe for European customers to European specs. It's quite unlike the consumer electronics industry where one appliance is made for the whole planet.

The 230V 50Hz market is also absolutely vast compared to the 120/240V 60Hz market. It's basically most of the planet, except the US, Canada, Japan and a few other places.

220-230V 50Hz European-derived standard, but it applies in the EU/EEA countries (507 million people, world's largest single market), all of the former Soviet Union / CIS (276 million people) , China (1.33 billion people), India (1.17 billion), the entire African continent (1.1 billion people), Australia, NZ, as well as a large chunk of South America. Half of Japan also uses 100V 50Hz..

So, all in all, you can be a consumer appliance manufacturer and not even think about 60Hz. There's an utterly vast market for 50Hz products, usually to a European-like spec. in design too.

The divide was fairly simple really.

In the US, Westinghouse was the main driver behind AC power in the early days and they decided on 60 cycles per second. It was fast enough not to flicker noticeably on incandescent lights and generators didn't have to spin ridiculously fast. 60Hz makes some sense as it's 60 cycles per second and there are 60 seconds in a minute and 60 minutes in an hour. In the early days, synchronising mains frequency with clocks and using it as a driver for accurate clocks was a big selling point so it made some logical sense to them to pick that frequency. (3600 cycles per minute)

Meanwhile in Europe, the main drivers behind the 50Hz standard, which was developed in parallel to the US system, were the likes of Siemens, AEG, ASEA, Ferranti and English Electric, Alstom etc etc...

From a European perspective, 50Hz made sense as it's 100 peaks and 100 troughs per second (50 complete cycles per second). The European preference tends to be for metric, so to the electrical engineers here it made a absolute sense to pick a number that fitted into something mathematically related to 100.

It's also 3000 cycles / minute which is a round number.

Again, 50Hz was fast enough to produce no noticeable flicker in incandescent bulbs but, slow enough to not provide any great engineering difficulties for the generation stations.

There's really no technical advantage or reason to prefer one to the other, they're just electrical conventions. The most important thing is that you pick and stick to one or the other, or it makes life VERY complicated!

220V seems to have been arrived at in Europe quite early on. I know Irish electrical systems were standardised at 220V 50Hz certainly by about 1925, and the standard definitely predates that by a couple of decades.

The first commercial AC power plant was opened in Depford in London by Ferranti in the 1880s. It predates Westinghouse's use of it by quite a while. That station was connected to a 10,000V local grid and output power at 83.3 Hz (5,000 cycles per minute.)


Post# 560744 , Reply# 40   12/1/2011 at 23:06 (4,391 days old) by cfz2882 (Belle Fourche,SD)        
little electrolux

 anyone have a wiring diagram for this washer?-should be a way to trick it into
working on 60 hz...if that is indeed the problem(looks like it is...)motors will
run a little fast on 60hz if induction(pump might be synchronus wet rotor"magnetic"
that will run fast too)I have run 50hz motors on 60 hz many times and it doesn't
seem to bother them-electric motors are pretty tough.

Post# 561006 , Reply# 41   12/3/2011 at 15:40 (4,389 days old) by mrx ()        

The problem is more likely to be down to the fact that most current generation European front loaders use full variable speed drives rather than simple motors. The incoming AC power won't impact on the motor speed, but it may not be compatible with the drive-control electronics.

The electronics rectify the incoming AC power and then re-modulate it into wave forms to control the speed of the motor by varying the frequency.

See below:



CLICK HERE TO GO TO mrx's LINK
Post# 561087 , Reply# 42   12/4/2011 at 02:23 (4,389 days old) by qualin (Canada)        

That makes me curious..

Any modern personal computer will have a power supply which can take anything between 100 volts straight up to 240 volts as long as the power supply doesn't have a voltage selector switch. You can feed anything from DC straight up to 60 hertz into them and they won't care, they'll always put out 12v and 5v.

Why not drive the control electronics with a power supply like that?

The other issue I think, would be the heater elements. I think the most cost effective solution would be to have a voltage selector switch in the rear of the machine which would switch a step-up transformer in or out so the heater element always sees 240 v. The added cost would be minimal.

As long as the washer doesn't draw more than 1300 watts with the heater on, it would be OK.. but I'm sure a lot of UK machines draw around 3000 watts...

Post# 561093 , Reply# 43   12/4/2011 at 03:56 (4,389 days old) by dj-gabriele ()        
to have a voltage selector switch

 In theory that could be done but it would be very expensive and it would render the machine bulky with many more electronic components.

A transformer for 2500 VA would weight as much as the machine and switching transformers like the ones used for notebooks or other worldwide travel appliances are designed only for small voltages and amperages.

This plus the fact that 110-120V 60Hz countries are a minority renders this a non-issue for the manufacturers.



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