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Thread Number: 37812
Machines of Ill Repute, Volume I - The later D&M Kenmore |
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| Post# 562268 12/9/2011 at 23:10 (4,515 days old) by roto204 (Tucson, AZ) | ||
I have a soft spot for maligned machines the way some people really enjoy BOL models. Plus, to be honest, I love having something new to futz with every few months. Sure, I'll acknowledge that our KitchenAid was the best dishwasher we've ever had. But that doesn't mean it's not fun to explore others, even ones with some serious quirks.
Ever since the days of the Roto-Racks, I enjoyed the D&M design. It's a butt-kicker, and effective for what it is, although I always enjoyed Greg's bet (I've never gone in on it yet) that to know pain is to chuck a pot of rice or a casserole laden with potatoes au gratin into a D&M dishwasher full of dishes, and let it run all the way through the heated dry cycle. There's nothing like that little asterisk-shaped macerator to chew up all the food particles into tiny yiblets that evenly coat absolutely everything, and resist flushing with subsequent water changes. When Sears started moving in the PowerClean/Whirlpool direction with their UltraWash line of dishwashers, I wondered what happened with the D&Ms that, at this point, had evolved into plastic tub machines. And, considering their forever-rust prone proclivities, plastic tanks were probably the most merciful thing that could have happened to them. It was around this time, though, that other changes happened to the design--some good, some not so good, clearly designed to wring a little more magic out of a very aging configuration. 
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| Post# 562271 , Reply# 1 12/9/2011 at 23:17 (4,515 days old) by roto204 (Tucson, AZ) | ||
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A new take on an old "favorite"
While Electrolux/White Consolidated was clearly getting ready to move into a new direction with their dishwashers--namely, separate wash and drain pumps and performance that couldn't shift cereal from the far side of bowls in the top rack, or scrambled eggs from a non-stick pan placed in the bottom--they did a few things to rejuvenate the old D&M design that harkened from the mid-sixties.
The first move was a deeper bottom rack, and recessed door. Gone was the hollow, venting door that directed steam nicely up into the unprotected metal parts and control panel, or forced it via fan out the bottom so that the door panel rusted in telltale ways. Fan-forced drying was still featured (and worked pretty well), but the door was now molded plastic, with a deep inset that accommodated a now GE-like extended rack. This was a selling point, and was touted to allow two full rows of dinner plates to extend side-to-side--and that they did. The capacity was nice, and as always, the absence of a spray tower is something I deeply appreciate. However, the singular flaw in the logic was having the recessed portion of the door extend only slightly more than a third of the way up the door. While plates and platters now found extended legroom, items like cookie sheets could not be loaded. They cleared the rack rollers above--and the spray arms--but hit the door liner just above the recess, and wouldn't allow the door to close! So close! On the plus side, the vile D&M swing-cup dispenser that was always broken (or two washes away from breaking) on the older machines was replaced by a much more civilized figure-eight, rotating lid configuration that had the cups cast into the door. 
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| Post# 562278 , Reply# 2 12/9/2011 at 23:26 (4,515 days old) by roto204 (Tucson, AZ) | ||
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New for the sump!
Let's check out what was going on below.
A departure from the tried-and-true stainless-steel wash arms led to plastic ones that needed help dodging the heat from the element, that now ran in a square around the bottom, rather than in a circle. Thus, metal plates were fitted to minimize melting. (I could tell this machine was not often used with the heated dry; many of these machines that were have partially melted arms.) A newer, flatter sump meant less water needed for a full fill, but led to other unanticipated side-effects like bits of food debris that would lay on the bottom, rather than sweeping naturally toward the pit of a deeper pump sump. You can see the large vent for the blower to the back-right. Addition of a tinier, more energy-efficient motor (so tiny and less-torquey, in fact, that the pitch of the sound varied as water surged to-and-fro) meant the need to ramp the wash pressure by decreasing the diameter of the wash-arm holes. So, the holes--which had been steadily shrinking since the seventies--now reached a new small diameter. Wash action was actually excellent in this during my testing, and all things being equal, I was quite satisfied (food trash in the bottom notwithstanding). But two issues arose from this configuration: 1.) WCI put a bull-honky "soil separator" (the large, white apparatus beneath the wash-arm and above the pump intake) in place, which supposedly centrifuged soil and flushed heavier particles down the drain. In reality, if it worked at all, only things with the density of gravel and neutron stars settled out before being forced up through the wash arm; the manual included explicit instructions to periodically twist the now thumb-operable wash-arm nuts off, and run the wash arms under the tap to dislodge chunks of food that invariably clogged the now tinier holes. When's the last time you were asked by the manufacturer to remove and clean the arms on a weekly basis? Of course, the documented bug becomes a feature. 2.) The macerator/non-filter configuration persisted, which destined debris for the wash arms like Barbra Streisand to musicals. Invariably, the corner jets suffered first, and coaxing a chunk of crud back out of the arm with only running water was tantamount to solving those little BB puzzles we had as kids. On the bright side, this may be the only D&M design that didn't sport the standard carmine patina of rust around the bottom. 
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| Post# 562279 , Reply# 3 12/9/2011 at 23:31 (4,515 days old) by roto204 (Tucson, AZ) | ||
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Deeper is generally better
This top rack--part of the "Deluxe" and "Super" rack lineup now offered by Sears and WCI-Frigidaire--was arguably the only logical top rack ever offered. The Roto-Rack was fun, but some of the square rack designs either had bizarre loop-times, completely oddball removable sections--or best of all, both.
This rack was deep, had high sides to keep dancing plastics in place (always a good trick in a D&M, wherein your best bet for anchoring Gladware was a brick), and offered usable rows for glasses on both sides. Note the thumb-twist on the middle wash arm--only the top had a non-quick release arm, held in place with an otherwise quick-release Phillips screw. The nice, big wash arm did a good job of cleaning up top, and would have even dodged odd-sized items and cookie sheets in the bottom rack, if you would have been able to close the door in the first place. 
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| Post# 562282 , Reply# 4 12/9/2011 at 23:35 (4,515 days old) by roto204 (Tucson, AZ) | ||
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Overall satisfaction rating
Overall, this machine was pretty good. I had to install a KitchenAid drain check-valve to keep it from retaining too much water in the sump, which led to increased yiblet risk.
If you pre-scraped, this machine delivered; if you're one of those who expects a plate with half the meal left on it to come out spotless, you won't be disappointed either, but you may have to rewash the rest of the load in trade. The soil "separator" did not change the wash performance or ability to deal with particulates of this machine any more than more-vintage D&Ms. And, like its older brethren, this machine was vulnerable to foreign-object attacks on its exposed impellers. What finally took this machine off my playlist was its own plastic nature; in the absence of chlorinated detergent--even with super-soft water, multiple water changes, and otherwise good performance at cleaning itself--stains and that "less than fresh feeling" were a problem. Still, very fun to play with--and an interesting attempt at addressing several outstanding irritations in the old design--including the porcelain and metal. | ||
Post# 562298 , Reply# 5 12/10/2011 at 00:23 (4,515 days old) by peteski50  (New York) |
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Kenmore Dishwashers! | ||
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Post# 562300 , Reply# 6 12/10/2011 at 00:24 (4,515 days old) by peteski50 (New York) |
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Kenmore Dishwashers!! | ||
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Post# 562301 , Reply# 7 12/10/2011 at 00:26 (4,515 days old) by peteski50 (New York) |
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Kenmore Dishwashers!!! | ||
| Post# 562302 , Reply# 8 12/10/2011 at 00:35 (4,515 days old) by roto204 (Tucson, AZ) | ||
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High on style | ||
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Post# 562378 , Reply# 9 12/10/2011 at 10:14 (4,514 days old) by peteski50 (New York) |
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The Frigidaire version! | ||
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Post# 562379 , Reply# 10 12/10/2011 at 10:15 (4,514 days old) by peteski50 (New York) |
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The Frigidaire version | ||
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Post# 562380 , Reply# 11 12/10/2011 at 10:16 (4,514 days old) by peteski50 (New York) |
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Frigidaire version | ||
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Post# 562381 , Reply# 12 12/10/2011 at 10:17 (4,514 days old) by peteski50 (New York) |
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The Frigidaire version!! | ||
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Post# 562382 , Reply# 13 12/10/2011 at 10:18 (4,514 days old) by peteski50 (New York) |
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Frigidaire version | ||
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Post# 562383 , Reply# 14 12/10/2011 at 10:19 (4,514 days old) by peteski50 (New York) |
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The Frigidaire version!! | ||
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Post# 562384 , Reply# 15 12/10/2011 at 10:20 (4,514 days old) by peteski50 (New York) |
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Frigidaire version | ||
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Post# 562385 , Reply# 16 12/10/2011 at 10:20 (4,514 days old) by peteski50 (New York) |
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The Frigidaire version | ||
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Post# 562386 , Reply# 17 12/10/2011 at 10:21 (4,514 days old) by peteski50 (New York) |
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The Frigidaire | ||
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Post# 562387 , Reply# 18 12/10/2011 at 10:22 (4,514 days old) by peteski50 (New York) |
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The Frigidaire version!!! | ||
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Post# 562388 , Reply# 19 12/10/2011 at 10:29 (4,514 days old) by peteski50 (New York) |
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Link | ||
| Post# 562406 , Reply# 20 12/10/2011 at 12:09 (4,514 days old) by roto204 (Tucson, AZ) | ||
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Thank you!!! | ||
| Post# 562433 , Reply# 21 12/10/2011 at 16:12 (4,514 days old) by wireman (Lansing, MI) | ||
I think our last DW was a Kenmore of this design. Wasn't particularly quiet, and don't recall stellar performance either. When it went about 5 yrs. ago, we replaced it with a Kenmore Elite (Bosch design). Not certain that Greg would've been too excited about spending $750 for a DW, but Sears had one running as a display and Greg was sold on how quiet it is.
It has proven a good DW with almost daily use. We always run it on the pot scrubber cycle, as it is shorter (112 min.) and hotter than all but the quick cycle. It isn't as deep as domestic DWs; I understand that European lower cabinets aren't as deep as ours. Things almost always come out clean, but we DO soak pot or pans that have burned or baked on food. Except for an occasional whisper, you'd not know it is running. The ONLY issue is that the upper rack has developed a rusted through spot in a corner. Duane | ||
| Post# 562434 , Reply# 22 12/10/2011 at 16:13 (4,514 days old) by wireman (Lansing, MI) | ||
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I think our last DW was a Kenmore of this design. Wasn't particularly quiet, and don't recall stellar performance either. When it went about 5 yrs. ago, we replaced it with a Kenmore Elite (Bosch design). Not certain that Greg would've been too excited about spending $750 for a DW, but Sears had one running as a display and Greg was sold on how quiet it is.
It has proven a good DW with almost daily use. We always run it on the pot scrubber cycle, as it is shorter (112 min.) and hotter than all but the quick cycle. It isn't as deep as domestic DWs; I understand that European lower cabinets aren't as deep as ours. Things almost always come out clean, but we DO soak pot or pans that have burned or baked on food. Except for an occasional whisper, you'd not know it is running. The ONLY issue is that the upper rack has developed a rusted through spot in a corner. Duane | ||
| Post# 562436 , Reply# 23 12/10/2011 at 16:14 (4,514 days old) by wireman (Lansing, MI) | ||
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Post# 562442 , Reply# 24 12/10/2011 at 16:42 (4,514 days old) by whirlykenmore78 (Prior Lake MN (GMT-0500 CDT.)) |
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Kinda rinky-dink design | ||
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Post# 562453 , Reply# 25 12/10/2011 at 17:57 (4,514 days old) by sudsmaster (SF Bay Area, California) |
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Frigidaire DW's - Ugh
I had a Frigidaire Gallery dishwasher, purchased about 1997. It was a POS. Not bottom line, either.
It had the following flaws: 1) The fine debris screen was made out of warped white plastic. It never ever lay flat against the basin it was above. Consequently food debris constantly skipped under it. I happen to like raw sunflower seeds, and these would get into the wash arms and clog them in no time. Plus all the grit all over the finished dishware. Grrr. 2) The upper rack had extremely flimsy mounting. Many was the time when it would suddenly fall off one side or another, with the entire rack crashing down. Grr again. 3) During the six years I owned the Frigidaire.. replaced the drain motor and two of the thermostats. It was educational but after a while I got tired of the hands-on repair scene. I finally replaced it with a MOL Bosch that was a Sears customer return, and even though that one was further damaged by clumsy Sears loading dock personnel, it has worked flawlessly ever since (I simply punched a dented in the upper inside right rear corner back into usable shape with my fist). 4) One thing the Frigidaire DW had going for it was the clever way it used one pump to alternate between upper and lower racks, with a ball that would block and unblock water distribution from one section to another. So the water stream was forceful enough without requiring a bigger motor. Until the screen let debris clog the wash arms, that is. | ||
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Post# 562540 , Reply# 26 12/11/2011 at 01:01 (4,514 days old) by peteski50 (New York) |
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Frigidaire D & M | ||
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Post# 562541 , Reply# 27 12/11/2011 at 01:02 (4,514 days old) by peteski50 (New York) |
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Frigidaire D & M! | ||
| Post# 562622 , Reply# 28 12/11/2011 at 11:30 (4,513 days old) by Volvoguy87 (Cincinnati, OH) | ||
D&M | ||
| Post# 562812 , Reply# 30 12/12/2011 at 14:08 (4,512 days old) by roto204 (Tucson, AZ) | ||
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Hot water and scraping! Allen, I agree that the key was a lot of hot water--and pre-scraping! No rinsing required, but scraping prevented endless forays to the sink with toothpicks to clear the wash-arms.
Dave, I think these finally petered out in the early nineties--my owner's guide matched Peter's 1991 print date, but I'm not sure if this was the swan song for that design.
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| Post# 563632 , Reply# 32 12/16/2011 at 22:14 (4,508 days old) by roto204 (Tucson, AZ) | ||
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Sucksters I haven't had the "privilege" of using the wash-tower units. We saw a White-Westinghouse unit that was like mine but with a tower and the full-length upper wash arm on the top of the tank, and I thought that was interesting.
This unit has three wash arms, and wasn't objectionable cleaning-wise. No chrome gone off the trailer hitch, but better than the later wimpy-pump Electrolux units that had a ball, but no balls. | ||
| Post# 563654 , Reply# 33 12/17/2011 at 01:34 (4,507 days old) by mrcleanjeans (milwaukee wi) | ||
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Nate, I L-O-V-E your reviews and writing style! You are a hoot! And you've answered that age old question I've had (well, really, 2 decade old question)about whether or not that honkin' "soil separator" really worked. BTW,what is the large hole resting atop of that thang? An olive pit port or what? | ||
| Post# 564855 , Reply# 35 12/23/2011 at 14:52 (4,501 days old) by roto204 (Tucson, AZ) | ||
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Thank you!! Thank you so much, Dave! I'm not sure what the hole on the separator is. Peter (peteski) had an Admiral brochure that attempted to explain the operation, but I think it was a lot of illustration and not much substance on WCI's part. I didn't dismantle it to see how it really was supposed to work. I believe water was infused by the pump, heavier soil was supposed to fall out by gravity, and clean water could exit the top port, leaving the yuck behind, but that's odd because I'm not sure why you'd want to bleed wash pressure out into the tank, rather than sending clean water up to the arm.
Of course, no clean water ever reached the arm anyway ;-), so maybe it was moot.
The olive-pit port was the wash pump, wherein all broken glass and foreign objects were automatically flushed to the wash arms for easy removal! ;-) Once the arms filled up with enough vanes broken off the wash impeller, and the wobbling impeller stack compromised the carbon-porcelain seal, it was time for a pump seal kit.
Gary, I love the story of $0.25 to $5 D&Ms. I seldom see them for less than $25 these days! I also love the idea of padding them to make them quiet--LOL!
I found that the later units with the black, two-piece sump (early-eighties, but before the dreaded soil-separator) were VERY easy to service. The ones with the porthole at the bottom, with its ring of bolts, were not so much.
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| Post# 564885 , Reply# 36 12/23/2011 at 18:06 (4,501 days old) by mark_wpduet (Lexington KY) | ||
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