Thread Number: 39054
How cold is "too cold" water?
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Post# 579071   2/28/2012 at 16:08 (4,411 days old) by Kenmore71 (Minneapolis, MN)        

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I realize this subject has been discussed in various places on this site somewhat regularly. That said, I came across something recently that sparked my interest again. I was going through a "new to me" Maytag washer repair manuel that covered the years 1975 - 1986. That would have been primarily the *08 model center dials, ALL of the *10 series machines and the very first of the *12 series machines. In this manual was a listing for the following cold water tempering valve.




Post# 579072 , Reply# 1   2/28/2012 at 16:18 (4,411 days old) by Kenmore71 (Minneapolis, MN)        

kenmore71's profile picture
Does this mean that Maytag considered 75 degrees to be a normal "cold" water temperature or was this just a temperature that Maytag found to be a pretty good compromise to achieve fairly consistent warm water mixing?

I just measured the incoming municipal water supply temperature at my home in Mpls. It is 42 degrees. Now, when that mixes with the 140 degree hot water in a cold machine we're left with water that is about 85 degrees. With today's detergents, I have not had any problems getting non-white clothes clean. But, when you stop to consider that in some parts of the country the COLD water supply in the summer is warmer than 85 degrees it would seem that we have a lot of variation here!!!

Incidentally, I went through the usual searches to see if I could find one of those Maytag valves online. I can find no trace of it ever existing except in the repair manual that I scanned above.

I know that thermostatic mixing valves are commonplace these days in many school and health care situations to LOWER the hot water temperature to prevent scalding. Has anyone tried using one of these for the opposite function: to temper incoming cold water to more "useful" winter temperature of say 60-65 degrees?


Post# 579082 , Reply# 2   2/28/2012 at 16:47 (4,411 days old) by Tomturbomatic (Beltsville, MD)        
ME

When the tap cold water falls below 75, I activate the tempering valve to keep the cold water for the 4 front loaders between 75 and 80 degrees Fahrenheit. To get the valve to deliver that temperature, I have it turned to its coolest setting. I think there must be a minimum temperature for even cold water detergents. Washers from the good old days considered warm water to be 100F. Today, a lot of people keep their water heater set lower than 140F so the mixing of a cooler hot and your tap cold gives a warm temperature that would be considered cool/cold. Fortunately, with a non-thermostatic fill valve you can turn down either the hot or the cold faucet to custom blend your warm temp. On the machines with a warm rinse setting, I throttle back the hot faucet to blend a 75 to 80 degree rinse water temperature.

Post# 579087 , Reply# 3   2/28/2012 at 17:10 (4,411 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        
For Laundry Purposes

launderess's profile picture
One always thought and or assumed from readings that about 75F to 85F was the target range for "cold water" at least for washing. IIRC many detergents of old had directions on the box stating the product wouldn't dissolve/work properly in water cooler than that.

Very cold water can be bad for laundry purposes. Considering many parts of the country had or still do have winters where the ground freezes solid and many reservoirs/bodies of water where the supply comes from, you could see some darn chilly tap water temps.

Very cold water causes textiles to constrict which can lead to poor rinsing results. Also as often noted here soap and or soap based laundry products will not rinse nor work well in cold water. The old formula tallow/fat based fabric softeners formed a gunky mess in very cold water which probably lead to the stuff creating a mess inside the machine.



Post# 579182 , Reply# 4   2/29/2012 at 00:44 (4,411 days old) by garyl ()        
Cold Water

Recently, I have been only using cold water because the hot water pipe out to the garage was capped off due to a leak. The cold water has been 60 degrees or colder, I've been using regular liquid Tide and getting good results. I add all color bleach and recently Borax. I pretreat the stains with a 4 parts water to 1 part Purple Power mixture. I just washed a red tee shirt that had grease on it from when I worked on my "classic" (1984 Chevy Citation) and there is no trace of the grease and oil on the shirt. When we lived in Yuma Arizona, the cold water was well over 90 degrees in the summer. Some people there turn their water heater off in the summer. I left mine on to help with cleaning the dishes in the dishwasher. One of the "house tasks" is to run a new copper cold water pipe to the garage (the old one is galvanized steel) and I am planning on installing a tankless water heater for the garage.

Post# 579215 , Reply# 5   2/29/2012 at 07:22 (4,411 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md)        
Washing Water Temperatures

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For good cleaning of clothing nothing should ever be washed in water colder than about 100 degrees or around body temperature. Yes things can be cleaned in colder water but you end up using excessive amounts of detergent to do so which also makes it harder to rinse the clothing. Its cheaper to use at least a little hot water for cleaning. Rinse water temperature does not make much difference if you are using detergent [ not soap ] as long as the water is not frozen solid LOL.


Post# 579224 , Reply# 6   2/29/2012 at 08:01 (4,411 days old) by Yogitunes (New Jersey)        

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Tide had a big deal with a commercial for the COLD WATER detergent, where this guy adds Tide to a container, and a tray of ice, with a swatch of clothing, stirred it around, pulled it out, and the stain was gone.......

but I agree with John.....WASH water should be 100 degrees for cleaning...


what ever happened to COLD POWER detergent from the 70's......it worked then, why not now.....

but just the same for different results, Florida residents with 80/90 degree cold water in the summer don't have issues with a cold wash........Minnesota in the winter will....


Post# 579229 , Reply# 7   2/29/2012 at 08:18 (4,411 days old) by Tomturbomatic (Beltsville, MD)        
Tide ad with ice cubes

Of course, they never said what the temperature of the water was before the ice was added. It could have been warm.

When I first moved here, one of my co-workers lived in an English basement apt with a 24" Kenmore and the 115 volt dryer above it. She started complaining of how the washer did not do permanent press well and how it was all wrinkled at the end. I asked her how she was washing them. In the winter, in Washington, back in the 70s, when we had some really cold winters, like in January, 1977, the temperature did not go above 32F all month, she was washing and rinsing in cold water. I explained that the fibers needed some heat to relax the wrinkles so a warm wash would work better, especially with a 115 volt dryer that probably was not really getting hot enough to do the dewrinkling. She tried it and it worked. Another misguided, energy-saving career girl who learned some laundry secrets like that not everything could be washed in cold water. Don't even think about her towels and sheets.


Post# 579241 , Reply# 8   2/29/2012 at 08:56 (4,411 days old) by Yogitunes (New Jersey)        

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and WHY are none of our guys on TV news shows or such, as commentaries, guiding our lost people on how to really wash clothes.......

we could have shared recipes on what to do with those darn ole holiday leftovers....

how to decorate rich, rich, rich...when your not, not, not!

and how to remove those unsightly yellow stains on your guest towels!....later on...how they got there!....


Post# 579251 , Reply# 9   2/29/2012 at 09:29 (4,411 days old) by Tomturbomatic (Beltsville, MD)        

Why should WE share with THEM? Pearls before swine, etc.

Post# 579252 , Reply# 10   2/29/2012 at 09:39 (4,411 days old) by Yogitunes (New Jersey)        

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because people think their Fashion Ed-u-ma-cated!....and have no clue how to take care of them properly!.....its like the Blondes leading the Blind....and then of course you find a out of the bottle Brunette, who's a translator!

Post# 579448 , Reply# 11   2/29/2012 at 22:59 (4,410 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        
Rinsing With Warm Water

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Oh I don't know.

Despite one's frequent advice about cold water for rinsing (at least where modern detergents are involved for wash day, and not pure soaps), tried an experiment last weekend when doing the wash.

Set the taps to "warm" so the Miele would take in rinse water at that temperature. While no way an exact controlled experiment can honestly say rinsing was better with warm water and the washer seemed to have less difficulty spinning loads than when rinsed with cold water. Wash seemed "drier" when coming out of the washer after the final spin, and yes they dried slightly faster (but not by much) in the dryer.

Also noticed that the heavy items (towels, wash cloths,etc...)that were sent to the extractor before drying gave up water easier and there was less of it than again when laundry is rinsed in cold.

Since all this was going into the dryer wasn't worried about any excess creasing that may come from spinning warmish laundry, but still it was an interesting test.



Post# 579462 , Reply# 12   3/1/2012 at 00:13 (4,410 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md)        
Rinsing in warm water

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All of your observations may be correct to some degree, but you need exact findings to see if the savings in drying time even come close to the high cost of heating the rinse water. Every thing I have ever read in regard to using a water thirsty TL washer says that you use several times more energy to heat the rinse water. And with a FL washer the amount of rinse is so much less that it may not be as expensive, but the clothing will be fairly cool when they get to the dryer anyway. And rinsing with warm water in a FL machine will cause a greater chance for mold and odors to develop.

 

I just fail to believe that every washer manufacturer and every detergent manufacturer in the world could be wrong. I guess that I am just the type of person that trusts experts.


Post# 579476 , Reply# 13   3/1/2012 at 01:19 (4,410 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        
@Combo

launderess's profile picture
Am not doubting the age old advice of machine washing in cold water, just wanted to post my own particular observations.

Regarding wash water temperatures here is what Maytag commercial laundry division says:


CLICK HERE TO GO TO Launderess's LINK


Post# 579484 , Reply# 14   3/1/2012 at 05:00 (4,410 days old) by spinspeed (Far North New South Wales Australia (originally London UK))        

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Here in Australia Cold Power is still one of the major brands in the supermarket. I have tried it but to be honest I have never had great results with cold water washing. In fact most of the detergents here state they give good results in cold water. It is ok for stuff that is not particularly dirty or smelly but for towels and gym stuff, cold water does not get the load really clean and smelling fresh. My Fisher & Paykel intuitive TL that circulates a small amount of warm or hot sudsy water over the load for 5 mins before it fills with cold and then agitates does a pretty good job but I think a completely cold wash is not great. My Aunt who only ever washes in cold water has really manky smelling towels when ever I go visit. We usually take our own towels.

Post# 579494 , Reply# 15   3/1/2012 at 06:22 (4,410 days old) by jetcone (Schenectady-Home of Calrods,Monitor Tops,Toroid Transformers)        
In the industry

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anything below 80 degrees is considered too cold for surfactants to do their job. And just think of eating a bag of McD' s fries and then downing an ice cold water right after?? How does that make your stomach feel?
Then think of all that body grease in your clothes-which is the major soil in laundry.Get that out with cold water--NOT!

I still prefer warm water rinsing, and I am not sure you are wasting any energy doing that. If you rinse in cold water- the dryer is going to need to heat that water up to a temperature where it will evaporate it out of the clothing. If you start with warm water-whichBTW has already been standing heated in the tank in your basement then the dryer will use less energy drying the clothes. Now for outside line drying, who cares.

Now that I have switched to LED bulbs, my boiler actually has to work a little harder to heat the house. All that incandescent heat energy is no longer there!
-Dr. Frigidaire



Post# 579843 , Reply# 16   3/2/2012 at 16:00 (4,408 days old) by DirectDriveDave ()        
Warm Rinsing

We have been doing warm rinses for as long as I can remember, have had great results with it too.

What I am about to say is without full knowledge if the warm rinses are the reason for this.

Just this past December when I replaced the drain pump on our Whirlpool DD, it was the first time the cabinet had been removed in 21 years, and, the outer tub (with the exception, of the usual water line mark) was clean, and I mean CLEAN. There was absolutely no buildup of anything inside. It was like it was brand new, and I was amazed. My guess is that the warm rinse water was keeping it that way. If i'm wrong, then my next guess would be that we usually wash in warm water and use powder detergent.


Anyway, to follow the topic, I think 70F should be the minimum for cold. 65F you can probably get away with, but below that wont work well.


Post# 579877 , Reply# 17   3/2/2012 at 18:11 (4,408 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        
Tumble Dryers And Cold Water Rinsing

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Consumer Reports has long held the position that rinsing with cold water saves energy even when factoring in the heat required for dryers to "warm up" cold laundry.

Post# 579901 , Reply# 18   3/2/2012 at 20:37 (4,408 days old) by PhilR (Quebec Canada)        

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Cold water... I used to work at a place where poor people could stay for a few months if they didn't have a place to live.

 

We had a laundry room where people could wash their clothes and bed sheets but for some "economy" reasons they weren't allowed to use the dryer on nice days and they weren't allowed to wash with hot water either... The hot water faucets to the washing machines were always closed!

And here, even in the summer, tap water is very cold because pipes have to be very deep in the ground to avoid freezing in the winter.

I often talked to my coworkers about that and told them we should change that and allow warm and hot water washing, and that bed sheets should even be washed in hot water for sanitary reasons but they refused (and they apparently all used extremely cold tap water to wash their clothes at their home!). Until there was a problem with people having skin diseases which required that they wash their bed sheets and clothes in hot water to avoid spreading their disease!

 

But still coworkers seemed to have something against that and I think they had been conditioned to wash with cold water by all these cold water detergent ads that I remember seeing on TV back in the eighties! 

 

Sorry for the french language ads, but I think most will understand just with the images!

 


Post# 579931 , Reply# 19   3/2/2012 at 22:31 (4,408 days old) by qualin (Canada)        

Here in Calgary, the cold water can approach about 2 C here (About 35 F) during winter if it runs for long enough. My GE TL machine would actually start filling with hot water when cold water washes were selected, to bring the temperature up.

I personally don't like the idea of cold water washing myself, but that's more of a personal preference more than anything. I don't mind spending the extra money to wash with hot water when I'm washing anything really stinky or smelly. (ie. Underwear and socks.) It gets it so much cleaner.

With a FL machine, I don't see any reason why not to use hot water, unless the clothing specifically says to wash in cold/warm water. (ie. Non colourfast fabrics.)


Post# 579970 , Reply# 20   3/3/2012 at 01:25 (4,408 days old) by jetcone (Schenectady-Home of Calrods,Monitor Tops,Toroid Transformers)        
PhilR!!!

jetcone's profile picture
Love those Arctic Power commercials! Especially the Mama who washes in the arctic with the paddle machine and carries home the ridgid underwear--THATS HYSTERICAL>

I also like the "Thunder Butts" who can take the cold water!!

Do they still sell Arctic Power??

Launderess- I'll have to think about CR, it takes the same amount of energy to raise water to evaporation every time. So if you are doing it twice you've used twice the energy. With that hot water already sitting in a hot water heater using it makes no difference. But heating the clothes twice does. I don't see how CR can make that claim.







Post# 581010 , Reply# 21   3/7/2012 at 10:31 (4,404 days old) by Tomturbomatic (Beltsville, MD)        

The latest Persil standard formula powder pkg. states that it will clean in water as cold as 68 degrees. Like any other product, it probably cleans better and faster at higher temperatures.

Post# 581043 , Reply# 22   3/7/2012 at 13:04 (4,403 days old) by eddy1210 (Burnaby BC Canada)        
Jon

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Yes!  They still sell Arctic Power.  However, they've taken the phosphates out now.  Still has the same vintage smell though.


Post# 581056 , Reply# 23   3/7/2012 at 14:09 (4,403 days old) by PhilR (Quebec Canada)        

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I just did a quick search and found a link to the company's website.  They have different brands like FAB in the US.



CLICK HERE TO GO TO PhilR's LINK

Post# 581103 , Reply# 24   3/7/2012 at 18:59 (4,403 days old) by Jetcone (Schenectady-Home of Calrods,Monitor Tops,Toroid Transformers)        
Ooo Eddy can you mail me some

jetcone's profile picture
I wanna try it and I'll send off some Rosalie's to you!!! I'll email you for addresses!

OXOXO Jon & Artey

Oh and for everyone- If it shrivels then the water is too cold for laundry!



Post# 581134 , Reply# 25   3/7/2012 at 23:21 (4,403 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        
"Oh and for everyone- If it shrivels then the water is t

launderess's profile picture
I do declare you is bad! That's what you are! *LOL*

Post# 581162 , Reply# 26   3/8/2012 at 05:44 (4,403 days old) by Frigilux (The Minnesota Prairie)        

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Cold Water Washing: I used powdered Tide ColdWater for about a year-and-a-half, and washed everything in temp-controlled cold water (about 65-70 degrees in my 2002 Frigidaire front-loader). Had great results, although I always used liquid chlorine bleach with loads of kitchen/personal whites. I tried using tap-cold water once (water temp about 42 degrees) and the results were disastrous. The temp of cold water does matter.

While I bemoan the dumbing-down of water temps in new washers---110-120 degree water is what manufacturers now consider 'hot'---my 2010 Frigidaire front-loader has an internal heater, so by selecting the Allergy option, the water heats to 132 degrees. Water heats to around 155 in the Sanitize cycle, which I use for aforementioned loads of whites.

I've noticed that when I use the Steam option, the clothes are warm at the end of the cycle, which leads me to believe the rinse temps are raised. I don't know if there's a big advantage to that, but it is nice to touch warm rather than ice cold wet items during a Minnesota winter.

Choosing a new washer: Get a front-loader with an internal heater, and preferably, one with a recirculating spray that saturates a large load very quickly. Ultra-low water consumption is here to stay, and front-loaders are more adept at dealing with that.


Post# 581168 , Reply# 27   3/8/2012 at 06:52 (4,403 days old) by Tomturbomatic (Beltsville, MD)        
Personal Whites

I like Madeline Kahn's term from Young Frankenstein: POO POO UNDIES

Post# 581228 , Reply# 28   3/8/2012 at 14:40 (4,402 days old) by dj-gabriele ()        
@jetcone

Cit. "I still prefer warm water rinsing, and I am not sure you are wasting any energy doing that. If you rinse in cold water- the dryer is going to need to heat that water up to a temperature where it will evaporate it out of the clothing. If you start with warm water-whichBTW has already been standing heated in the tank in your basement then the dryer will use less energy drying the clothes. Now for outside line drying, who cares."

If you like rinsing with warm water nobody can stop you, if you're fine with it, we're happy ;)
But don't say stupid things! Warming the 80-90 litres of water needed for the rinse in a top loader will use around 3 kWh of energy, which is almost as much the energy needed to dry that very same load. Warming the residual water from 10°C to 40°C in the clothes (no more than around 5-6 litres per load in a low spinning top loader) will simply use a tiny fraction of that energy and the water will start evaporating right away, it will not boil off the clothing. So rinsing in warm water will make you spend at least TWICE than rinsing in cold water and machine drying.

Cit." Now that I have switched to LED bulbs, my boiler actually has to work a little harder to heat the house. All that incandescent heat energy is no longer there!
-Dr. Frigidaire"

So very true but producing ONE unit of electricity costs at least 3 units of gas/coal/oil, heating with fossil fuel directly is better than heating with electricity. So indeed you're saving resources.


Post# 581324 , Reply# 29   3/9/2012 at 05:30 (4,402 days old) by Jetcone (Schenectady-Home of Calrods,Monitor Tops,Toroid Transformers)        
@ Gabriele

jetcone's profile picture
First the heated water, as I stated, is already sitting in my hot water tank 24-7-365. The difference is do I throw the warm switch or cold switch on the washer.

I was talking about water the dryer sees, I never mentioned water in the washer, don't bring in things I didn't discuss. Now lets look at that dryer question again:

A specific latent heat (L) expresses the amount of energy in form of heat (Q) required to completely affect a phase change of a unit of mass (m), usually 1kg, of a substance as an intensive property: L=Q/m



For water the latent heat of vaporization is well known:

2260 j/Kg at 100C. Water doesn’t vaporize below this.

Okay to simplify the discussion if we look at just 1 kg of water left in the clothes as they are put into the dryer:

If that water is already at 100C then to evaporate it must get 2260 j from the heating element of the dryer to go from a liquid to a vapor.

But if that water was NOT already at 100C if it was colder then to just to add 2260 joules is not the whole story. If that 1 Kg of water in the dryer was a block of ice you would first need to heat that ice to a liquid –a phase change.
For ice you would need to add 334 j/kg to get that ice to a liquid state, then to dry the clothes you would have to get that melt water to a vapor by adding another X joules to get it from 0C to 100C and then add another
2260 j to get it to vaporize to a gas . That would bring the total heat energy to go from ICE To VAPOR to (2260 +334 + X) j/kg!



Now if that 1 kg of water in the clothes was water and not ice and already at 100C then you would only need 2260 j to get it to a vapor.

Which is the larger amount Gabriele?? (2260+334+X) j or (2260) j?

So it is obvious strictly speaking that to dry an item in a dryer it takes MORE energy if the initial temperature and state of the water is lower.

Now you can dry clothes with another process of evaporation by relative humidity by exposing damp air to dryer air. That’s how clothes actually dry on a line outside even in winter. But that is not what I was saying.
And by the way what you made the assumption that the water was heated electrically, water can be heated by gas or fire, so your energy units are not universal.




This post was last edited 03/09/2012 at 05:54
Post# 581333 , Reply# 30   3/9/2012 at 06:22 (4,402 days old) by Tomturbomatic (Beltsville, MD)        

I am all for rinsing in water that is not painfully cold, but water does sublimate so it could go from a frozen solid to a vapor without having to absorb enough heat to change from a solid to a liquid state before changing to a gaseous state. Water will evaporate, albeit at a slower rate, at lower temperatures. That is why you can hang things to dry and they will dry eventually. Depending on water to be boiling hot, 100C or 212F, for vaporization is not achieved in most dryers except maybe Filtrators and some condenser combos. With those machines, which depend on high temperatures, heating up the load with warm or hot rinse water heated by a gas water heater certainly helps shorten the drying time since you are shooting for raising the temperature of the whole dryer atmosphere above 200F for cottons so that there will be a great temperature difference between the steamy air and the cold air or water temperature for condensing. Air flow dryers can slowly, but eventually, dry clothes on 120 volts at much lower temperatures. A Maytag HOH dryer has a heating element about 400 watts larger than the Filtrator, but the air flow through the drying load keeps the exhaust heat around 110F because of the cooling effect of evaporation. It is only after the load is dry that the temperature starts to climb. That is why the electronic control HOH dryers have the Permanent Press (or Wash 'n Wear in older models) cycle. It is after the load is dry that this cycle allows the temperature to climb to 160F to make sure the wrinkles are relaxed out of the no-iron fabrics before the dryer goes into the thermostatically controlled cooldown. That is also why Maytag recommended this cycle for items needing extra drying.

Beyond the better rinsing in cool water, say 75F, because the fabrics are relaxed and water can more easily flush out the detergent and dirt held in the fibers, relaxed fabrics give up more water in extraction because they compress better. Maybe the real trade off, since most of us are not using condenser dryers, although Jon uses his Duomatics, is if a significantly greater amount of water is left in fabrics spun after a stone cold rinse than in fabrics rinsed in warmer water. Maybe not, but those of us who like to rinse in cool water as opposed to 42F cold water will continue to do so and those who don't mind rinsing in cold will continue to do that.


Post# 581334 , Reply# 31   3/9/2012 at 06:35 (4,402 days old) by Jetcone (Schenectady-Home of Calrods,Monitor Tops,Toroid Transformers)        
Well said

jetcone's profile picture
Tom. Thank you I couldn't think of the term sublimation this morning!

And I do love my Duomatics, they are my daily drivers.



Post# 581422 , Reply# 32   3/9/2012 at 15:10 (4,401 days old) by Yogitunes (New Jersey)        

yogitunes's profile picture
Heres somthing I found interesting on a commercial for ALL with Oxi liquid.......

for heavily soiled kids clothes, as shown in the commercial......read the fine print at the bottom when they show you a pic of before and after.....

items pretreated and washed in WARM water, Normal cycle............and yet they push for you to use COLD for savings...even their own test are showing that Cold is not getting them clean....


makes you wonder

but I also think theres a big difference between a traditional TLer and a FLer on hot water useage.....I was always a Warm/Cold user with the TLer...since I got the FLers...its either Warm/Warm or Hot/Warm........whats the harm, its only a few gallons......


Post# 581423 , Reply# 33   3/9/2012 at 15:12 (4,401 days old) by Jetcone (Schenectady-Home of Calrods,Monitor Tops,Toroid Transformers)        
Exactly Yogitunes that is what John

jetcone's profile picture
taught in his class "How to wash in a Front Loader" FL201.



Post# 581426 , Reply# 34   3/9/2012 at 15:23 (4,401 days old) by dj-gabriele ()        
so your energy units are not universal

Sorry to prove you wrong but a kWh (or 3,6 MJ) is a universal quantity of energy, be it electric, or otherwise.
Another stupid thing to say is that "water is sitting already in the boiler" the difference is in using it or not, because the boiler has to be replenished once you draw water from it.

And I exactly told something pertinent to your post. Also what you said, about boiling water doesn't relate to machine drying clothes, you don't "boil" them, but use a stream of warm dry air to solve the water in it, sure there's going to be phase change and such but it's not BOILING.

What I was saying is (and re-read my previous post correctly) that doing such will cost you TWICE.
Pre-warming your clothes with warm water will cost you 3 kWh of thermal energy (regardless of source) considering all the water used by the machine during the rinse, the actual water in the clothes yield a thermal energy of around 0,200 kWh negligible compared to the total use.
Detract that from what a dryer use and you might go from 3,5 to 3,3 kWh of thermal energy needed to dry the load...

So in the end you have 3+3,3 = 6,3 kWh with warm rinsing or 3,5 with cold rinsing.

If you want a more detailed insight about that we can discuss it privately as I like to be clear and don't want to pose as a tedious guy :)


Post# 581436 , Reply# 35   3/9/2012 at 16:32 (4,401 days old) by pierreandreply4 (St-Bruno de montarville (province of quebec) canada)        
to dj gabriel

pierreandreply4's profile picture
this will be my only post in this topic but for me if i would have to use for x reason a vintages machines i would have the wash and rinse temp knob set only on cold water wash or warm water wash but i would only use the cold rinse temp because i am one thats wents to save in energy and not all fabrics can take a warm rinse i for 1 thing find that using cold water for main wash and main rinse find that the effect is the same as if i would of use a washer with a warm rinse.

Post# 581546 , Reply# 36   3/10/2012 at 13:55 (4,400 days old) by Jetcone (Schenectady-Home of Calrods,Monitor Tops,Toroid Transformers)        
No again

jetcone's profile picture
"Sorry to prove you wrong but a kWh (or 3,6 MJ) is a universal quantity of energy, be it electric, or otherwise."

kWh (or 3,6 MJ) that means nothing! OVER WHAT TIME PERIOD?? A MINUTE A DAY A YEAR??

AND HOW MANY KWH AM I USING IN MY GAS BOILER??? A DUH!



No a KWH is a measure of ELECTRICITY and a Joule is a Universal measure of any kind of energy!
You have to CONVERT KWH to JOULES to get JOULES just as you TRIED TO DO AND DIDN'T!
A KWH is a RATE of Electrical energy!
A WATT= Joule/SECOND! Thats the definition!



Another stupid thing to say is that "water is sitting already in the boiler" the difference is in using it or not, because the boiler has to be replenished once you draw water from it.

Yes and if I DONT use that water it will COOL even sitting in the boiler and to maintain that temperature -----whether I use it or not ---the boiler will come on to keep it at temperature.

And don't call me STUPID again!





This post was last edited 03/10/2012 at 14:40
Post# 581618 , Reply# 37   3/10/2012 at 19:50 (4,400 days old) by dj-gabriele ()        
I will call you ignorant in the matter then

as you're wrong and you don't want to understand.
And by the way, I didn't call you stupid, I wouldn't ever do it as I don't even know you in person but I said that what you wrote was stupid.

A kWh is a measure of ENERGY, a kW is a measure of POWER, two different words and yes, both units can be applied to any kind of "energy" and "power" thermal, electric, as you like, even muscle power can be measured in kW and the energy you burn while doing sport can be measured in kWh. It's just a different unit.

Cit. "kWh (or 3,6 MJ) that means nothing! OVER WHAT TIME PERIOD?? A MINUTE A DAY A YEAR??"
With this pearl you demonstrate your total ignorance of basic physics: the timespan is written in the unit name; that amount of energy is equal to having a load of the power of one kilowatt turned on for one hour and it equals 3,6 MJ or 3412 btu or 860420 calories.

Cit. "Yes and if I DONT use that water it will COOL even sitting in the boiler and to maintain that temperature -----whether I use it or not ---the boiler will come on to keep it at temperature."

SURE! But standby boiler losses are one to two orders of magnitude less than what you can have in drawing hot water, negligible compared to the fuel used for heating water for "real" uses, so if you use the hot water is going to cost you, if you don't use it it will cost you something you can't really count.

If you want real explications be my guest but don't push things that don't make sense, it's not correct.


Post# 581678 , Reply# 38   3/11/2012 at 09:01 (4,400 days old) by Jetcone (Schenectady-Home of Calrods,Monitor Tops,Toroid Transformers)        
Yes you did call me stupid

jetcone's profile picture
and you can't back away from that.

but that doesn't matter.
What matters is the truth.

saying "kWh (or 3,6MJ) is the same as saying "65kph is 65kilometers". That means nothing! Direct from Physics like I stated>>>> 1 WATT = JOULE /SECOND look it up and learn!

And P.S. I do hold a degree in Physics!




Post# 581694 , Reply# 39   3/11/2012 at 10:21 (4,400 days old) by dj-gabriele ()        
And I am an Energy Engineer...

And I add you don't know what you're talking about as you're mixing energy units and power units! What saddens me the most is the presumption behind the affirmation "And P.S. I do hold a degree in Physics!": you're utterly ignorant and it shows big time. I would have kept my mouth shout and answered you in private but this is no longer the case.

Cit. "saying "kWh (or 3,6MJ) is the same as saying "65kph is 65kilometers". That means nothing! Direct from Physics like I stated>>>> 1 WATT = JOULE /SECOND look it up and learn!"

What has that have to do with the discussion!?

1 [Watt] IS 1 [J/s] measure of power (so very true, nobody is saying that this is wrong!)

But the thing that you're not understanding is that one kilowatt hour is a measure of energy and one kilowatt hour is exactly three millions 6 hundred thousand Joules (as I wrote). If you can't understand this very basic concept we can't discuss! Or maybe you should re-learn what you studied when you got your degree otherwise you will keep staying in you state of total ignorance.

Or want me to use only units you're familiar about? I can convert all of what I said in Joules or calories or TEP or whatever. I know what I'm talking about!

AND PLEASE: cite the text where I said that "Jetcone is stupid" as I didn't ever write such a thing.

PS: I'm sharing this link on wikipedia so you can learn what a kWh is, it explains everything clearly, after that, when both of us know what we're talking about we can discuss.

PPS: for the other guys I'm very sorry for having hijacked the discussion but I can't stand this kind of crass errors imposed ad the truth revealed!


CLICK HERE TO GO TO dj-gabriele's LINK


Post# 581697 , Reply# 40   3/11/2012 at 10:45 (4,400 days old) by Jetcone (Schenectady-Home of Calrods,Monitor Tops,Toroid Transformers)        
Gabriele

jetcone's profile picture
Lets drop the hatchet, I will concede you didn't' call me stupid directly.

But from your wikipedia link here is the direct quote:

"The kilowatt-hour (symbolized kWh) is a unit of energy equivalent to one kilowatt (1 kW) of power expended for one hour (1 h) of time.
Inversely, one watt is equal to 1 J/s."
QED.

I was talking about amount of energy expended by the dryer. I think you are talking about a billing rate or what it costs. Two different things. Lets agree to disagree.

Jon


Post# 581701 , Reply# 41   3/11/2012 at 11:17 (4,400 days old) by Tomturbomatic (Beltsville, MD)        

I still think it is important to this discussion to note that Jon uses condensing combination washer dryers and heating the whole system, machine parts as well as laundry, with gas heated warm rinse water (or with a final hot rinse in the case of the GE combo when set for a hot wash) is faster and cheaper than heating it with the electric heating element when the machine starts drying. The only part of the combo that you want to be cold for the drying operation is the condensation chamber. Any other benefits such as probably better rinsing and water extraction from the warm rinses are for lagniappe.

Post# 581716 , Reply# 42   3/11/2012 at 13:19 (4,400 days old) by PhilR (Quebec Canada)        

philr's profile picture

I'm among those who usually use warm rinse. I just think that cold tap water is too cold to use for laundry where I live (and I rarely use the permanent press cycle)... Of course, I'm aware that my (electric) water heater has to reheat the 40°F cold water to 140°F and it might cost a bit more than just letting the hot water sit in the tank and be just maintained to it's temperature but I don't care much about that! That's why I have a water heater!

A real waste of money would be not using this already heated water when needed!  So to wash (and rinse!) myself, the dishes (with or without the dishwasher which also fills with hot water, even for rinses!), also my clothes and I even feed my plants with warm water! I even use hot/warm water to wash my cars, but I do rinse them with cold water from the garden hose just because I don't have hot water outside!

Otherwise, I just could get rid of the water heater! That's why one of my neighbors got rid of his hot water tank, but he also got rid of the broil element in his electric oven because he didn't like when it turned on for a faster pre-heat... He also disconnected his frost free refrigerator for the same reason an he now washes himself with water he heats on his wood stove! He doesn't pay for wood so if it's ok for him, well... And I know he does have an old WCI Frigidaire washer that looks like new and it probably is as it's not even connected. Too bad his washer isn't just a few years older! And I didn't ask him how he washes his clothes! He does like to spend his money on other things, like cigarettes and alcohol! That's his choices, I respect them but I wouldn't like living like he does!

 

 


Post# 581729 , Reply# 43   3/11/2012 at 14:58 (4,399 days old) by Yogitunes (New Jersey)        

yogitunes's profile picture
lets have a little fun with this, if we can......

for the people who have access to the ideas or concept.....how would you go about making a solar powered hot water heater.....nothing lavish, more on the practical side with stuff you already have......

just a simple idea I did once, but the garden hose that lays outside, in direct sunlight, really heats the water inside, although I have never measured the exact temp.....and hooked it up to 2 of my Neptunes, granted I only needed a few gallons per fill, but I was getting somewhat hot washes and warm rinses, with no energy at all.......

I just wonder if we could take this a step further, either a rack of plastic pipe assembled and placed on the roof of the house, or a length of garden hose just laying out in the back yard, and piped to the washers........how much pipe or hose would be needed to equal a 30/40 gal hot water tank?.....

just curious if this would work on a bigger level for a TL washer.....and wondering how long would it take to replenish...even if it only gave warm wash and rinses.....and of course really only works in the Summer at best....

I know some of you guys have machines in the garage or sheds with no hot water tank...but what if something as simple as 200/300 ft of garden hose on the roof gave you heated water at no cost other than a few supplies, which for the most part you already have....just a thought

I would like your ideas or thoughts on this....


Post# 581782 , Reply# 44   3/11/2012 at 19:59 (4,399 days old) by PhilR (Quebec Canada)        

philr's profile picture

Martin,

Another neighbor has a black hose or Carlon pipe on the roof of his garage during summer. I think he uses it to heat water for his swimming pool.

 

The problem with solar power is that's it's missing on cold or cloudy days and after the sun sets! And if you live in area where the water freezes, you also need to flush (and even uninstall) this system for the cold season. Might work during summer time to preheat water to the water heater (maybe through black Carlon aerial pipes) but it would be useful only when the weather is nice and the sun is present.

 

Or it could be used for a fun washing experiment outside on a sunny day with a closed circuit. Using a sump pump in a plastic drum to circulate water through a black hose sitting under the sun, Then to reuse wash/rinse water, and to refill non suds-saver machines! But it might be a bit tricky to refill some metered filled solid tubs with this arrangement...


Post# 581884 , Reply# 45   3/12/2012 at 08:19 (4,399 days old) by Jetcone (Schenectady-Home of Calrods,Monitor Tops,Toroid Transformers)        
Martin

jetcone's profile picture
in the 70's around Boston we saw a lot of homes install roof heaters that were made similar to what you are suggesting using hard pipe with water inside that circulated. Some circulated with gravity/convection some had pumps on the lines. In fact there is still one operating not 2 blocks from me.

But over time I heard there were problems with these systems so they slowly faded away and a lot of these people replaced them with photo-voltaic cells on the roof.

One person told me the pipes or pumps would clog with something regularly and you had to get up on the roof to fix it( NO THANK YOU), another told me you had to keep maintaining the black paint on the pipes other wise the sun bleaching of it caused a big drop in efficiency.( Again up on the roof to fix)
I have heard from a few of these people that they like the PVCells better they think it makes more hot water.
But thats all anecdotal so I'm not sure.
But was is surprising is all these early adapters were the first to go with the next generation of solar which was PVCells, I think they already had the mounting hardware on the roof from the piping systems so it was easier to do.

When we were driving across Canada with our RV we had this outdoor portable shower that you filled and left in the sun, and man the water got HOT!! You had to mix it with cool water to shower. There wasn't gobs of it but there was enough and it was HOT!



Post# 582454 , Reply# 46   3/14/2012 at 20:00 (4,396 days old) by Yogitunes (New Jersey)        

yogitunes's profile picture
DIY..........

heres a video of a guy in Texas who built a home made solar water heating grid.....

seems simple enough, even for the top of a garage or laundry shed.....free hot water at temps up to 160 degrees.....that will get your whites white!....how much could this really cost versus the savings....even if just for the washing machines!....


CLICK HERE TO GO TO Yogitunes's LINK


Post# 582457 , Reply# 47   3/14/2012 at 20:12 (4,396 days old) by DirectDriveDave ()        
Safe Water Temperature

What is the usual safest hot water temperature, not for your hands but for the machines themselves, sometimes I feel that water that is too hot could damage something on the machine.


(our hot water is 120F)


Post# 582464 , Reply# 48   3/14/2012 at 20:25 (4,396 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        
Can't Be Sure

launderess's profile picture
But IIRC Miele's hot water intake hose is labeled not to exceed 140F.



Post# 582467 , Reply# 49   3/14/2012 at 20:34 (4,396 days old) by Yogitunes (New Jersey)        

yogitunes's profile picture
my current gas powered water heater is set at 150 degrees.......but some machines do have cautions about too high......

I wouldn't mind having this solar set up piped to the dishwasher as well....especially at this temp....

but if it was to get that hot or higher, a tempering valve could be installed...wouldn't that be funny, free hot water that you have to temper down...or even a pressure relief valve installed in the "rack" for overtemps..


but just the same, the garden hose heats water sometimes that for the first few minutes, the nozzle gets too hot to hold....


Post# 582593 , Reply# 50   3/15/2012 at 09:39 (4,396 days old) by Tomturbomatic (Beltsville, MD)        

Iceland has long had to temper the geothermal hot water with cold to make it safe for household use.


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