Thread Number: 39233
KA bites the dust again: A shoppping I will go
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Post# 581460   3/9/2012 at 20:06 (4,401 days old) by petek (Ontari ari ari O )        

petek's profile picture
Tonight in the midst of washing a load our KA (circa 2005)dw quit. The display panel is dead aka no lights, circuit is fine. Harken back to 2006 when we bought this house the previous owner had just installed it in 2005 I believe and it quit on us sometime shortly after. The heater needed replacing and they did a circuit board upgrade iirc per a recall or something. I don't think it's worth the cost of repairing which is bound to cost a few hundred dollars for a service call, parts and labor so I'm going to replace it. No point in saying get a trusty vintage KA which I'd love more than anything simply because the hubby won't have it and I have to bow to him on this. He puts up with all my other eccentricities around collecting except for the major kitchen appliances, it's non-negotiable.

So I'm going to be looking at Bosch and possibly another Miele if there's any deals to be had although I really don't want to lay out that type of money. We loved the one we had back in Calgary. Problem also is there is no Miele dealer here anymore, the closest is 60 mi away.
I'm looking at the website for that closest Miele dealer and see they also sell makes like Bosch, Blomberg? AEG, Asko as well as all the traditional brands like GE, Frigidaire, Elux ..

Bosch prices range all over the clock and it sure gets confusing.

Anyone know anything about this Blomberg (German made) brand? They look a lot like a Miele or Bosch. I'd be a little shy of buying one,, re future servicing etc.

Anyone with anything terrible to say about Bosch or glowing reports?

Primarily I the most quiet of quiet dishwashers..I don't want to hear anything but my hearbeat standing beside it, dead silence, like our old Miele. The lowest sound ratings I'm seeing are around 46 Db.

Lowes here in Canada has a Bosch Series 5 on sale for $999, anyone have one of those?





Post# 581461 , Reply# 1   3/9/2012 at 20:25 (4,401 days old) by coldspot66 (Plymouth, Mass)        

Your d/w might have blown the fuse on the circuit board. Not expensive to fix. Might be worth a try.

Post# 581467 , Reply# 2   3/9/2012 at 21:05 (4,401 days old) by petek (Ontari ari ari O )        

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One thing I forgot to mention with this machine. A few months ago it seemed like the rinse-aid light was coming on frequently to the point that after about 2-3 washes it was empty again. I don't know if it was all coming out in the rinse or leaking somewhere into the door.. if it was that could possibly explain something, rinse agent getting up to the electronics when the door is flat down or ?

Post# 581475 , Reply# 3   3/9/2012 at 22:30 (4,401 days old) by mysteryclock (Franklin, TN)        

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Make sure if you are opening it up to check on the fuse that you inspect the control board for any physical damage such as burns, warping, etc. After what happened to my 2004 KA - which nearly caught on fire - I'd recommend that.

We replaced ours with a Bosch with a built-in softener (link below.) It is the ADA version so certainly not a "tall tub" but remarkably, everything seems to fit and comes out perfectly clean, shiny and streak-free. Cycle times are quite a bit longer than the KA but I can handle that since I'm usually starting it later in the evening anyway.

Good luck!



CLICK HERE TO GO TO mysteryclock's LINK


Post# 581477 , Reply# 4   3/9/2012 at 22:34 (4,401 days old) by Tomturbomatic (Beltsville, MD)        

You might want to use the search function for Blomberg. I asked about it a few months back and there was a lot of information given about it in this forum.

Post# 581478 , Reply# 5   3/9/2012 at 22:50 (4,401 days old) by neptunebob (Pittsburgh, PA)        

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Pete, it could be a loose connection at the junction box underneath the machine where it is hardwired into the house wiring.  How do I know?, it has happened to us twice after my mother bought a new KA.  Seems that the wire from the dishwasher to the copper house wiring becomes separated even though I used a wire nut.  So now I am going to have to find some kind of better wire nut so this does not separate again (possibly from the large current draw?).  Hobart KA units had a wiring block where one screwed the house wiring on, this one does not.


Post# 581493 , Reply# 6   3/10/2012 at 04:17 (4,400 days old) by qualin (Canada)        

Pete,

I bought my Miele dishwasher from Coast Appliances here in Calgary.

They treated me right.

Good luck on your search.


Post# 581506 , Reply# 7   3/10/2012 at 07:40 (4,400 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md)        
2005 KA DW Fix ?

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I would consider fixing the KA, as suggested it may just be a thermal cutout above the control board or a bad connection in the junction box where the house wiring connects to the DW. { Hobart has not had an actual screw type connection for the power since the 17 models ]

 

I would not recommend a Bosch DW to anyone,

 

1. They are MUCH harder to install and work on.

 

2. They have a poor long term relibility and some are under recall for fire potental.

 

3. They are MUCH smaller inside, if you like to wash lots of large items it gets full very quickly.

 

4. They have a messy filter so your final rinse water is strained over any left over food chunks.

 

5. They are not Union Built by employees that get domestic partner benefits.

 

 

This past Thursday I removed a 6 year old Bosch DW from a customers house [ it is a TOL all SS inside and out, buttons from one side to the other, impressive looking machine ] The customer got tired of having it repaired and bought a high end SS KA from us that I installed. When it was installed and I opened the door and pulled out the lower rack he and his wife could not believe how much larger it was inside.

 

PS If anyone wants a nice Bosch let me know I think it may just need a new fill inlet valve this time.


Post# 581515 , Reply# 8   3/10/2012 at 08:58 (4,400 days old) by estesguy (kansas)        
Loose connection fixed !

Bob, I just had to fix that same problem on my inlaws dishwasher that I installed a year ago. She was complaining of a "hot electrical smell", and the wires had melted because of increased resistance, from them separating in the junction box. The house wiring was thick stranded copper, creating a problem of keeping them secured together. I cleaned up the ends and SOLDERED them together, then put a larger wire nut cap back on. Yes, they will have to be cut off someday when the machine is replaced, but until then, that problem won't re-occur, I guarantee it.

Post# 581543 , Reply# 9   3/10/2012 at 13:47 (4,400 days old) by petek (Ontari ari ari O )        

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I checked the connection and it's fine. So I spent a couple of hours perusing Sears, Lowes and the small independent dealer we bought our freezer from who will price match all comers. Sears had a Sears Elite (Bosch) TOL model on clearance for $1299 +tax and the independent store (whom I like btw) said he could get me a
KitchenAid KUDE40FXWH in white (which I want) for $943 , which is a very very good price for in Canada. I just checked on Amazon (US website) where it's selling for slightly more . 46db sound level seems pretty good too.

One thing I noted on the Bosch was that in order to get better drying results it says to use rinse aid AND choose the sanitize option which leads me to thinking it's not the best dryer. (read some complaints on that online as well) I don't want to have to run the sanitize option and I don't use rinse aid anymore since that's already included in the tabs.


So I'm thinking of biting the bullet and gambling on another KA


CLICK HERE TO GO TO petek's LINK


Post# 581544 , Reply# 10   3/10/2012 at 13:48 (4,400 days old) by petek (Ontari ari ari O )        

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I noticed the newer Kitchenaids no longer have the 4 arm washarm,, just the same WP type.



Post# 581583 , Reply# 11   3/10/2012 at 16:48 (4,400 days old) by peterlondon (london uk)        
999.99 I'd have a stroke!

A dishwasher washer here (the "B" brand) only around £250.00

I think I would be shipping one over and just hooking it up onto the stove line.

I was also wondering do you have insurance cover plans over there? Not that I want to do a plug,but for example british gas do appliance care for around £13.50 per month covering 3 appliances....unlimited call out too! (enuff of the plugging already, I really don't work for BG.)

Changing to subject a bit,I have always wondered if the outlets on your ranges is 220 or 110? I am still holding onto the dream that one day I will be able to ship one of them over the pond.
pete


Post# 581585 , Reply# 12   3/10/2012 at 17:02 (4,400 days old) by petek (Ontari ari ari O )        

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Actually Bosch dw's start at around $600 here but with rebates/sales etc you can often get them cheaper. They range up to around $1900 for the TOL model full price without any discounts.. They've got so many models to choose from it's very confusing.
I was just yapping with my sister on the phone who has a Kenmore Elite (Bosch) and she tells me she's had servicing 3 times in about 2 years and right now the detergent dispenser won't open automatically. So I think I'm going to pass on Bosch.

Dishwashers are 110v, Stoves and dryers are 220 v.


Post# 581590 , Reply# 13   3/10/2012 at 17:14 (4,400 days old) by peterlondon (london uk)        
outlets

petek,my question about the outlets on ranges was because I wanted to know if companies had to make a 220 range of small appliances to would run from the 220 outlets provided on the ranges.

While I was living in spain,I bought a hamilton beach mixer that had an american plug.On closer inspection I saw the rating plate stated 110-220,so bought it.

Now living back in the uk and still using my HB.
pete


Post# 581652 , Reply# 14   3/11/2012 at 04:47 (4,400 days old) by foraloysius (Leeuwarden, Friesland, the Netherlands)        

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Overhere in Europe Bosch are quite reliable dishwashers. For many years Bosch dishwashers were the best sold in the Netherlands. I wonder if there is a quality difference between Bosch in North America and Bosch in Europe.

BTW, this KitchenAid has filters too that need maintenance, so I don't see what John's rant is about.


Post# 581683 , Reply# 15   3/11/2012 at 09:18 (4,399 days old) by firedome (Binghamton NY & Lake Champlain VT)        
Bosch...

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Our son's wife's parents bought a Bosch about 6 years ago and have had serivce calls 3 times already, they are fed up and looking for a different one now.

Post# 581691 , Reply# 16   3/11/2012 at 10:14 (4,399 days old) by petek (Ontari ari ari O )        

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Pete,, the outlet(s) on the stoves themselves are 110v. Someone more stove knowledgable could probably chime in here but I don't think they're available on US model stoves anymore for some reason. They still are on some Canadian models. I recollect something about a requirement they be fused? which all the Cdn models always had. If it wasn't that there was also something about identical US models did not meet Canadian electrical requirements and that if you had a US model stove your house insurance wouldn't cover any damage, aka fire etc attributed to have been caused by the stove.

Post# 581695 , Reply# 17   3/11/2012 at 10:23 (4,399 days old) by petek (Ontari ari ari O )        

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Louis. Hard to say about the quality, you have to wonder if perhpas they've been cheapened over the last few years like a lot of things, or is it the addition of all these electronic controls. Cutting back on the quality to bring them down to a more competitive price point over here? One thing I did notice about them when I was looking at a fairly new one that was at the Habitat store awhile back, the whole bottom frame appeared to be made of molded plastic, some of the new ones I saw yesterday, the bottom of the tub was plastic, not stainless steel.

Post# 581721 , Reply# 18   3/11/2012 at 13:48 (4,399 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md)        
Bosch DW relibility

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Bosch DWs may be the most reliable brand of what is sold in Europe, I don;t have any way of knowing. I do know that North American appliances from stoves to refrigerators, washers, dryers and DWs have been the most durable and long lived here. Bosch DWs have been much better the last few years, I hope they continue to be relibile over the longer term, time will tell. When Asko DWs hit here 10-15 years ago they set new records for trouble prone DWs and the brand is virtually nonexistent now.

 

It has always been interesting working here in Washington D C as I have a lot of customers that have lived all over the world and used lots of different appliances. I constantly have people who are amazed that we have so many major that are 20-30 years old still working well who have lived in Europe and else where. They either think we are cheap to keep them so long or are amazed that they still work. Just this week I had a women say she only has Miele appliances but they never keep them more than 10 years, she couldn't understand why the owner of the house they were renting were having me fix a 21 year old WP DW, she did say it worked great but was noisy LOL.

 

New KA DWs with filters, I would avoid the machines that do not have the food disposer, the filter machines usually cost more and don't work any better.


Post# 581736 , Reply# 19   3/11/2012 at 15:34 (4,399 days old) by petek (Ontari ari ari O )        

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Well I bought the KA KUDE40FXWH, the price was right and included free delivery and no tax as well so I figure it was as good a deal as I'm going to get. Plus I'm getting it from a local independent dealer and I'm hoping the machine is at least built in the US or Canada. One day of appliance shopping and googling was enough for me this time which isn't normal because normally I enjoy looking at all the stuff out there. I don't think my hearts in it right now and I just wanted to get it over with quick. Just hope I don't get a lemon. I didn't even realize this one has those extra power scrub nozzles on the back wall for pots and pans, hope they work as intended. It does have the filter and the S shaped spray arm. I'm not too concerned about the filter aspect. We had that in our previous Miele and seldom was the time it ever needed cleaning, only took a second to do. I'd rather the machine have the filter and be quieter than not. One thing I'm not as thrilled about is that it's the model with the crossbar handle and hidden controls so you can't see the remaining cycle times. I'd rather see the controls.
Now I have to wait until thurs or Fri until it gets delivered, bummer.


Post# 583769 , Reply# 20   3/19/2012 at 23:05 (4,391 days old) by petek (Ontari ari ari O )        

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Happily my new KA was delivered today and I set about removing the old to make room for the new. It's only the second time I've ever installed a dishwasher and overall it went quite smoothly. For one thing I was able to use the old drain hose. Not too much cursing, mainly when I disconnected the drain hose from the old machine and way more water came pouring out than I expected. As well trying to tighten up the tiny tiny screws underneath the door handle with the supplied tiny thin allen key.. Allen Keys are the work of the devil. I was sweating by that time because I'd turned the power off including thhe a/c and it was warm and humid in the house..
Ran a small load on the Pro Wash with the Pro Scrub feature activated. That's those 4 jets on the backwall like on the Sears Elite or Pro..to see how well they scrubbed my baking pans. I won't know till the morning when I get back to the house because I had to head over to moms to momsit her for the night.

It's pretty darned quiet though it is not silent as our old Miele which was dead silent. I don't think it's actually any quieter than the 6 year old KA it's replacing with the hydrosweep 4 arms. This one has a two arm spray. The only insulation difference I noticed is that they have attached some sort of rubber matting on the sides and backwall then the very same white fiber blanket just rests over the top and sides. This rubber stuff doesn't even cover all of the sides or the back, maybe 2 square feet on each panel.
Oh one other thing.. I had to go buy a new L connector that doesn't come with the machine, to hook up the water line,,why they changed to needing that I wonder.

I took some pics but there back at the house.. I'll post em tomorrowl


Post# 583964 , Reply# 21   3/20/2012 at 15:30 (4,390 days old) by petek (Ontari ari ari O )        

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The old KA removed



Post# 583967 , Reply# 22   3/20/2012 at 15:31 (4,390 days old) by petek (Ontari ari ari O )        

petek's profile picture
The new one getting ready to be wired up



Post# 583969 , Reply# 23   3/20/2012 at 15:32 (4,390 days old) by petek (Ontari ari ari O )        

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in place


Post# 583970 , Reply# 24   3/20/2012 at 15:33 (4,390 days old) by petek (Ontari ari ari O )        

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Inside


Post# 583973 , Reply# 25   3/20/2012 at 15:37 (4,390 days old) by petek (Ontari ari ari O )        

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the lights
I didn't realize when I bought this one that it lacked a Rinse & Hold feature.. which is kind of annoying especially at this price point. 95% of the time we just use the normal wash cycle on a dw but I did use the Rinse & Hold occasionally.

It has a One Hour wash cycle button which according to the instrx book uses more power and about twice the amount of water. One hour doesn't include an optional dry setting though, just wash and rinse.


Post# 583982 , Reply# 26   3/20/2012 at 16:28 (4,390 days old) by lebron (Minnesota)        

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I see this Kitchen aid comes w/out the 4 way washarm and has a removable filter. Does anyone know how this mechanism compares to the older Whirlpool it replaced?

Post# 584095 , Reply# 27   3/21/2012 at 07:41 (4,389 days old) by countryguy (Astorville, ON, Canada)        

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Pete,

How about a pic of the control panel?

Gary


Post# 584122 , Reply# 28   3/21/2012 at 10:15 (4,389 days old) by PassatDoc (Orange County, California)        
@Louis and Petek

Bosch in USA are made in a plant in either Georgia or South Carolina. One would think that the pump and other mechanicals are the same on both sides of the Atlantic. The features and design of the controls differs, however, as I've seen Bosch in European stores that do not resemble what they sell here in terms of controls (but racks appear similar). I should add that Bosch is by far the most common European DW brand sold here. Some large stores like Lowes (which are everywhere) sell them, which means that even people in smaller towns and rural America can buy them (as opposed to only large cities like Atlanta or Chicago or Grand Rapids*). It's also easier to find service and parts for Bosch versus what to us are more exotic brands like Asko or Miele. Miele is not uncommon, but there are more service companies here that repair Bosch than Miele. I think one of the selling points for Bosch is that you supposedly get European design and quality, but a brand that is widespread enough that it is easy to find servicing and parts (I don't know about rural America, however).

My middle-of-the-line model is from 2001 and has never needed a repair or adjustment. One of my patients owns the local appliance store in town (no, I do not enjoy special discounts....) and he advised keeping my old machine going for as long as possible, by that he meant if it needs a $150-200 repair, then repair it and avoid having to buy a new one for as long as possible, because the newer Bosch models that he sells do not seem to have the same durability as the older models. In addition, he said that final rinse temps have been dumbed down so that at end of cycle, dishes/glasses are still not fully dry, and his customers with new machines find they have to open the door and air dry the contents for an hour or so before they are ready to be put away. In my Bosch, as soon as the cycle is over, the dishes are dry, though of course the steel interior sides are wet. He said the cleaning ability is about the same, though cycles take even longer now to accomplish the same task (because they are using even less water than models a decade old).

*Louis, that is a joke for you. There ARE people in Netherlands who consider Grand Rapids, Michigan to be a "major" city of the USA. And let's not forget Hope College (Dutch Reformed Church college) in Holland, Michigan, which is not surprisingly a center for tulip bulb production in USA. In the 1980s, I remember that a friend of yours (Trixi) visited Los Angeles and urged Californians to buy and plant more imported flower bulbs. Apparently the Princess of Orange did not know much about California gardening: tulip bulbs must be kept in the refrigerator for eight weeks to simulate winter, then you plant in December, and you get them only one year. They don't come back a second year, unless you dig them up and store them in sawdust over the summer. Sounds like fun, no? I'd like to see her do that at Soestdijk or Huis ten Bosch. Ha! However, narcissus and freesia will survive year after year here, and freesia for us is an OUTDOOR plant. Not something in a pot on a Dutch coffee table in February that you look at while stirring your coffee and complaining about the weather. ;) (the national sport).

For the uninitiated, the women in the photo below are:

Left: then-Crown Princess Beatrix, today Queen of the Netherlands and owner of what has to be the largest hat collection in the country

Right: her mother, Queen Juliana, now deceased. Compared to her somewhat-regal (but popular) daughter, she had a very informal style in spite of being (at the time) the wealthiest woman in the world (Shell Oil and all that stuff). Unlike Queen Elizabeth, most of whose "wealth" is held in trust for the nation and cannot be sold (and is not her personal property), the Dutch royal family has very large stock and real estate portfolios which are "private" and "can" be sold or liquidated


Post# 584130 , Reply# 29   3/21/2012 at 10:46 (4,389 days old) by william637 (Damp pants? Not a chance. )        
Steam Vent Discharge

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As you use this machine, you will want to keep an eye on the finish of your cabinets. I have two of these newer model kitchenaids in my kitchen and they are screwing up my cabinet finish. During the wash cycle (I generally do the 1 hour wash), they pour so much steam out of these vents that my cabinet fronts have copius amounts condensate collected on them. I have thought about pulling the dishwasher forward to stop this, but that would mean that I would see the side of the unit (the insulation) sticking out in front of the face frame of my cabinets.

You would think with all the steam they putout during the wash that they might dry the dishes, but I am going to tell you oh nay-nay. Unless I open the door at least once (if not twice) during the dry cycle to let all the steam out, the dishes are not dry.

I will say though, that the units do clean somewhat decently.


Post# 584133 , Reply# 30   3/21/2012 at 10:49 (4,389 days old) by petek (Ontari ari ari O )        

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Here's the control panel



Post# 584134 , Reply# 31   3/21/2012 at 10:49 (4,389 days old) by westie2 ()        

Pete

 

We like our 7 year old kenmore Elite with the power wash in the back it does a great job.  Never a problem with it.  It replaced a 1986 Whirlpool that got so loud you could hear it outside the house.

 

 Bob/appnut has one and really like his too.

 

 


Post# 584138 , Reply# 32   3/21/2012 at 10:58 (4,389 days old) by petek (Ontari ari ari O )        

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And the potscrubber jets on the back. They did a good job on my loaf pans which had that sticky PAM residue, like glue. Haven't had a chance yet to try them with the burnt on remains from scalloped potatoes in the Corningware etc. While it was running you could hear the metal pans getting sprayed intermittently, not continually, so not sure whether they run continually or sort of cycle during the wash.
On the front to the right of the handle is a tiny light which is blue when washing and rinsing, then goes red for drying and I think it goes green if you're using the sanitizing cycle.


Post# 584141 , Reply# 33   3/21/2012 at 11:11 (4,389 days old) by countryguy (Astorville, ON, Canada)        

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Thanks for the control panel pic. My KA has the rinse/hold but not the 1 hr wash...otherwise all the cycles/options are the same. I believe the pro scrub jets alternate with the lower wash arm - it's as if there is not enough power to the pump to supply water to both.

Gary


Post# 584299 , Reply# 34   3/21/2012 at 21:04 (4,389 days old) by tgm8000 (New York)        
Rinse & Hold

all you have to do is start a cycle after it fills and washes a few times , hit the cancel drain button. Now you can rinse & hold!

Post# 584307 , Reply# 35   3/21/2012 at 22:14 (4,389 days old) by petek (Ontari ari ari O )        

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Yikes, I just did a full load of dishes that to be truthful were not very dirty, the dirtiest dish is the one in the picture above with some leftover spaghetti sauce on it. The rest were not much at all thanks to Pip always doing a little prewash, as well some "new" old Corningware I'd bought I wanted to wash.
On the ProWash cycle, the one they recommend, it took 2 hours and 10 minutes to get to the dry cycle.. yikes. That's way too long. I'd like to try it with a load of real dirty dishes and see if it takes the same amount of time,, in which case the whole "sensor thing" about adjusting time etc.. would be a bunch of..

we'll see.



Post# 584318 , Reply# 36   3/21/2012 at 22:56 (4,389 days old) by jerrod6 (Southeastern Pennsylvania)        

Does the prowash cycle use the soil sensor?  I ask because on my USA configured  2006 Miele DW the cycle labeled NORMAL...the one you would expect to use all the time.... does not use the soil sensor.  No soil sensor, no load size sensor...So even if you wash one clean plate the machine will go through an almost 2 hr cycle using a maximum water fill level, with a water temperature no higher than 120F.  That was 2006...don't know how NORMAL works in 2012.

 

On the other hand the cycles that use the soil sensor will adjust the wash time, the wash temperature and the number of water changes to the size of the load and the amount of soiling.   The cycle time for these can be 2 hrs 10 minutes  for very heavily soiled dishes especially if the load contains  many dishes covered with starch or oil, but the cycle times can be as short at 1 hour 25 minutes for lightly soiled loads. Consequently the Normal cycle is one I NEVER use.  

 

So just because they recommend a cycle may not mean it is the best  for your conditions.


Post# 584321 , Reply# 37   3/21/2012 at 23:05 (4,389 days old) by jerrod6 (Southeastern Pennsylvania)        
Another Thought

I think I read somewhere that Whrilpool/KA DW calibrate the soil sensor on the first few washes, so if the Prowash cycle is using the sensor perhaps it was doing the calibration during this first run and following cycles will be shorter.

 

I don't know what is going on during this calibration but I think I read that you are NOT supposed to open the door or interrupt the cycle.  Not sure if this applies to your model and I can't really tell you where I read this info but I know I read it..No way I could have dreamed this up. 


Post# 584322 , Reply# 38   3/21/2012 at 23:08 (4,389 days old) by jerrod6 (Southeastern Pennsylvania)        
Country guy said:

"I believe the pro scrub jets alternate with the lower wash arm - it's as if there is not enough power to the pump to supply water to both."

Did you have the plate with pasta sauce placed in the back of the machine so that the jets would hit it?


Post# 584325 , Reply# 39   3/21/2012 at 23:22 (4,389 days old) by petek (Ontari ari ari O )        

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It's somewhat confusing, so I've scanned the charts,, although the Pro Wash cycle is the only one that shows it adjusts for time, soil level etc and the chart shows different times for soil levels etc.. so does the normal wash..
And if you look at the times for the Pro Wash it says for "light to medium" 110-150 minutes.. I would figure that what I had in there was very lightly soiled
There's really not much difference at all between it and the Normal cycle.

Unless I'm missing something



Post# 584330 , Reply# 40   3/22/2012 at 01:44 (4,389 days old) by tolivac (greenville nc)        

Is there a Bosch factory in South Carolina too?There is one here in Eastern North Carolina-New Bern-used to be a former Bosch power tool factory.Now they build Bosch appliances there.This NC Bosch factory is about 20miles south of Greenville NC.

Post# 584394 , Reply# 41   3/22/2012 at 10:46 (4,388 days old) by A440 ()        

Nice Dishwasher!
It is so nice to see that they give you the option to have a 1 hour wash and use a little more water! I bet this cycle would do just fine for cleaning a regular load.
Have you figured out how many final rinses it has?
Thanks for the scans and pictures.
Brent


Post# 584396 , Reply# 42   3/22/2012 at 10:58 (4,388 days old) by william637 (Damp pants? Not a chance. )        
Use the 1 hour wash

william637's profile picture
I pulled out the electrical diagram and cycle logic chart when I was installing mine, and found a little nugget of information. The cycle with the hottest water is the 1 hour wash (I do not have the sani option on mine, so I can't speak to how that will change water temps throughout the cycle). It keeps it up at around 145 after the second fill. I have found that this wash actually does better than the heavy wash with the hi-temp scrub option (takes over 2 hours and only heats the water to about 130 - 135 if I remember correctly).

Hope this helps.


Post# 584397 , Reply# 43   3/22/2012 at 11:10 (4,388 days old) by william637 (Damp pants? Not a chance. )        
Are they serious?

william637's profile picture
I was just looking at the scan of your owner's manual. The normal wash temp is only 105 degrees unless you opt to have a high temp scrub of 120? Since when is 120 a high temp scrub? Now I am going to have to go back and look at my cycle logic chart as well. Since I only use the 1 hour wash, I have forgotten what the parameters of the other cycles are.

What are the engineers thinking? You might as well pee on your dishes - it's going to be about the same temp and you may even get a better flow. 105 degree water isn't going to acheive any hygienic standard, I don't care how long you leave them in there. I hand wash in water hotter than that.


Post# 584461 , Reply# 44   3/22/2012 at 16:08 (4,388 days old) by jerrod6 (Southeastern Pennsylvania)        

The engineers are thinking ENERGY STAR  rating so that the company can get a discount on their Federal taxes....that's all.  I think this year the normal cycle must be the one used to get the ENERGY STAR rating, so a wash temp of 105F will certainly help reduce electricity use.  Of course it may not really clean  much but then it may take 150 minutes too.... but  hey you can use the energy boost which is excluded from the ENERGY STAR ratings criteria and then the performance may improve.

 

Nothing is done for the consumer...everything is done for the corporation.

 

 


Post# 584470 , Reply# 45   3/22/2012 at 17:19 (4,388 days old) by petek (Ontari ari ari O )        

petek's profile picture
I think you're seeing 105 minutes, not degrees LOL . It's all geared towards using 120 deg water.

It looks to me like the soil sensor must work on all cycles except the 1 hr wash. since they all give varying degrees of time depending on how dirty the dishes are. So I'm still stumped as to what exactly extra the PRO WASH cycle does that the others don't.


Post# 584477 , Reply# 46   3/22/2012 at 18:13 (4,388 days old) by william637 (Damp pants? Not a chance. )        
Nope - 105 water

william637's profile picture
Nope - I just double checked. Look at the description of the hi-temp scrub option. It says it increases the water temp from 105 to 120.



Post# 584494 , Reply# 47   3/22/2012 at 19:56 (4,388 days old) by petek (Ontari ari ari O )        

petek's profile picture
See what you mean.. odd still though because it's supposed to heat the water in all cycles at least up to 120, so why do they just mention it there and if the other cycles are also heated up to 120,, then what's the point of the high temp scrub in the first place.. lol

Post# 584502 , Reply# 48   3/22/2012 at 21:14 (4,388 days old) by neptunebob (Pittsburgh, PA)        

neptunebob's profile picture

Pete, we have at my mother's house the exact same machine, bought last year, only in stainless steel.  Is yours the "Architect series"?  One tip is that is nothing is caked on, the china crystal cycle is enough and it does not take as long.  Our stickers on the door are different, they recommend Finish powerballs.   That Cascade we would buy at Sams Club is awful.


Post# 584511 , Reply# 49   3/22/2012 at 23:29 (4,388 days old) by MattL (Flushing, MI)        

Dumb question perhaps, but does the machine somehow cool your water to 105?  Seems to me the determining factor is the water inlet temp, not the machine.  I keep my water in the 150 range all the time, so my DW gets close to that and it cleans spotless every time.


Post# 584554 , Reply# 50   3/23/2012 at 07:21 (4,387 days old) by william637 (Damp pants? Not a chance. )        
Cooling Water

william637's profile picture
Mattl

Dishwashers do not cool the water as an intended part of the cycle, but unless the water is being heated inside the machine during the cycle, it will never be as hot as what is in your water heater.

First, there is the issue of clearing the cold water out of your pipes when the machine fills. Then, the thermal mass you have to heat (the dishes and the dishwasher itself), is relatively high compared to the amount of water that comes in for each fill, so that cools the water off considerably. Finally, you have the thermal losses from conduction (dishwasher to surroundings - generally small now that they are well insulated), and water evaporating and exiting through the vent.

This was probably more information than you wanted to know, sorry about that. My favorite engineering courses in college were by far heat transfer and thermodynamics, so even simple things like thinking about the energy transfers in a dishwasher fascinate me.

As a side note, you are like me - my water heater is as hot as it will go - my tap water is about 155 - 160. When I remodeled the kitchen two years ago, I put in two top of the line frigidaire gallery professional series dishwashers. I was very excited about getting those two dishwashers - I have a previous professional series with the precision wash that is about 14 years old now. It may be the most kick-ass plastic tub dishwasher ever. In fact, I will put it up against many older machines. I digress..

I always purge the hot water lines before starting the dishwasher. One of numerous problems that I had with these new dishwashers is that if I selected "sanitize", I would never get the "sanitized" light to come on at the end of the two hour cycle. The repairman came and worked on it three times, replaced temeprature sensors and the circuit board. We talked to Frigidaire about it. Their answer (I can't make this up): "The water in your house is too hot. It confuses the dishwasher". That, coupled with several other problems, made me rip them out and put the kitchenaids in.





Post# 584574 , Reply# 51   3/23/2012 at 09:36 (4,387 days old) by petek (Ontari ari ari O )        

petek's profile picture
Hey Bob... yes it is. I'll give that a go soon as I build up enough dirty dishes.. It usually takes us 2-3 days around here.


I did try the 1 hr. wash last night (without the dry cycle added). It cleaned well though at the beginning the machine seemed to be filling and purging, then running a minute, then draining a little,then adding a tiny amount of water, then running again etc. in a most odd manner I couldn't quite figure out. Why it doesn't just fill, pre rinse, drain, then wash, I dunno. I probably wouldn't have noticed had I been upstairs, but my pc is literally right underneath the thing in the basement and I'm sitting surfing etc and it's like what the hell is that machine doing up there.


Post# 584589 , Reply# 52   3/23/2012 at 10:57 (4,387 days old) by william637 (Damp pants? Not a chance. )        
Cycle logic

william637's profile picture
Yeah, I know what you are talking about. Mine doesn't purge the water during fills, but EVERY fill sequence is like this:

Fill (approx 15-20 seconds, motor off)
Fill with motor on (approx 5 seconds)
Fill off and motor off (approx 10-15 seconds)
Fill with motor on (approx 10-15 seconds)
Fill off and motor off (approx 10-15 seconds)
Fill (until float switch engaged) with motor on (approx 15-20 seconds)
Fill off and motor off (approx 5-10 seconds)
One more motor off sequence and then it goes into the cycle.

If you open the door to pause the cycle, and then restart, as it restarts it goes through the same type of deal. 3 or 4 times the motor turns on and off before it resumes the cycle.

I would love someone to explain the rationale behind this. I can only come up with the following:

Turbidity sensors are generally engaged to check water clarity when the water is stationary. Perhaps even though turbidity is only monitored a few times in the cycle, they only wrote one fill sequence.

If anybody knows why the cycle logic is so crazy in these machines, I am all ears. I have been trying to figure it out.


Post# 584645 , Reply# 53   3/23/2012 at 16:35 (4,387 days old) by jerrod6 (Southeastern Pennsylvania)        

So the motor keeps turning on and off during the fill. Does it spray the water during the times when the motor is running?   Does the water continue to run in the entire time this is happening or does it stop and start like the motor?


Post# 584660 , Reply# 54   3/23/2012 at 17:55 (4,387 days old) by william637 (Damp pants? Not a chance. )        
Off periods

william637's profile picture
During the off periods, everything stops - the fill and the motor.

About the 3rd time it restarts, you hear the water valve opening and closing as the water level is sloshing at the float switch max level.


Post# 584678 , Reply# 55   3/23/2012 at 19:09 (4,387 days old) by petek (Ontari ari ari O )        

petek's profile picture
That sounds very much like what mine was doing. Won't know till I run it again on the cycle to confirm if it was also draining a little.. sounded like it was.

Post# 584694 , Reply# 56   3/23/2012 at 21:09 (4,387 days old) by A440 ()        

How many final rinses?

Post# 584700 , Reply# 57   3/23/2012 at 22:51 (4,387 days old) by westie2 ()        

Pete and Mark this what our Kenmore Elite does we had the Sears guy out after we heard this and it is the sensing going on.   We use the Smart Wash cycle the most on ours and it does a good job.  In our water we have found that Finish Quantum is the best for us.

 

 


Post# 584703 , Reply# 58   3/23/2012 at 23:30 (4,387 days old) by petek (Ontari ari ari O )        

petek's profile picture
Brent; not sure how many final rinses it did. I wasn't in the kitchen all the time and it's also hard to tell when it's actually rinsing because there is no rinse indicator or even a countdown timer like on the other one which is sort of annoying.. That little light on the front door stays blue throughout the wash and rinse cycles before turning green when it's done.

Post# 584710 , Reply# 59   3/24/2012 at 00:50 (4,387 days old) by MattL (Flushing, MI)        

william637  I was being a bit facetious  with my "cooling" comment.  I too purge the water line before running the DW so I get the hottest water possible.  I just struck me odd talking about 105 degree water, I could not function with water that cold.


Post# 584721 , Reply# 60   3/24/2012 at 03:20 (4,387 days old) by Frigilux (The Minnesota Prairie)        

frigilux's profile picture
I realize that dishwasher detergents, like laundry detergents, are being reformulated to work better at lower temperatures, but I'd certainly be pressing the SANI RINSE option for every cycle on the new KA.

The light wash cycle on my LG uses 105-110 degree water, but I never choose that cycle. It doesn't incorporate the sensor, so I find light loads are washed just as quickly (and with less water using the sensor-driven normal cycle) which also heats the wash water to 140. The sensor on my machine opts for fewer fills quite often.


Post# 584783 , Reply# 61   3/24/2012 at 11:18 (4,386 days old) by 58limited (Port Arthur, Texas)        

58limited's profile picture

I've been reading this thread with interest. My KitchenAid, model KUDL02IRWHO, purchased in Feb. 2005, has never given my any problems. I'm quite happy with this dishwasher and hope it lasts for another 7 years but I appreciate the critiques given in this thread of the other brands in case I end up needing a new one in the near future. My KA is a mid-line model and does not have the scrub jets but usually cleans even burned on cheese off of my Corningware. Rarely do I have to hand scrub or rewash something. I use either Cascade or store brand detergent from HEB.

 

The owner's manual recommends using 120 degree water and the sanitizer cycle, which I always use, heats the water to 155.

 

Good luck with your new KA, Petek. I can't wait to hear a report on how it handles really dirty dishes.


Post# 584811 , Reply# 62   3/24/2012 at 14:00 (4,386 days old) by petek (Ontari ari ari O )        

petek's profile picture
Re the KitchenAid model #'s. I' guessing that the KUDS prefixes still incorporate the traditional 4 arm sprayer, from what I've seen the KUDE's like mine are the newer S arm filter machines so what are the KUDL's etc.. anyone know?

Post# 584814 , Reply# 63   3/24/2012 at 14:29 (4,386 days old) by 58limited (Port Arthur, Texas)        

58limited's profile picture

My KUDLxxxx has the four arm sprayer and the food grinder. Here's a picture:


Post# 584821 , Reply# 64   3/24/2012 at 15:28 (4,386 days old) by petek (Ontari ari ari O )        

petek's profile picture
That looks pretty much the same as the one I just replaced KUDS01IL with the 4 arm sprayer.

Post# 584824 , Reply# 65   3/24/2012 at 15:56 (4,386 days old) by norgeway (mocksville n c )        
Two Hours and Ten minutes!!

I would DIE!!! Im getting ready to instal a KDS15 that was built in Dec 65...3 months after I came along, and even on Sani Cycle, it dosent run quite an hour!!How on earth do they claim that is Energy Star???? 8 to 10 gallons of water is bound to be cheaper than over an hour of electricity.

Post# 584833 , Reply# 66   3/24/2012 at 18:36 (4,386 days old) by 58limited (Port Arthur, Texas)        

58limited's profile picture

I've never actually timed mine, but it goes well over an hour - I use sani-wash and sani-rinse.


Post# 584852 , Reply# 67   3/24/2012 at 21:48 (4,386 days old) by lebron (Minnesota)        
My KUDLxxxx has the four arm sprayer and the food grinder

lebron's profile picture
This is the machine I was referring to (or similar Whilrpool model). I would like to compare the performance of this machine to the new one in the original thread.

Post# 584905 , Reply# 68   3/25/2012 at 07:11 (4,385 days old) by mrb627 (Buford, GA)        
Detergent and Time

mrb627's profile picture
Seems the same with washing machines and dishwashers. The high temp options are being reduced while the detergents seem to get more concentrated and more notably, more expensive. So, anything you are saving by washing in a lower temperature, you are forking over for more expensive detergents.

Just saying....


Malcolm


Post# 584916 , Reply# 69   3/25/2012 at 09:11 (4,385 days old) by pierreandreply4 (St-Bruno de montarville (province of quebec) canada)        

pierreandreply4's profile picture
or another option is to raise the water heater temp for when using the dishwasher me what i use my kenmore dishwasher to wash dishes i use the smart wash cycle turbo zone option and i have the hi temp option active and if i need i activate the sani rinse option but its rare that i use the sani rinse option

Post# 585401 , Reply# 70   3/27/2012 at 22:53 (4,383 days old) by petek (Ontari ari ari O )        

petek's profile picture
I've barely had any time to play with my dishwasher since I've been mom-sitting at her house this past week or so. (She has altzheimers and we're preparing to get her moved out)
I did a "light/china" cycle the other day with a fairly full load but didn't get to stay until the end.

Tonight I did another "One hour" cycle paying a little more attention although I probably should have wrote it down.

During the first 4 minutes the machine did about 6 minor fills (4-5 sec) each followed immediately by a minor (4-5 sec) drain. At the 5 minute mark it drained completely it sounded like and refilled and repeated the above for about another approx 15 minutes. All in all there must have been a good 12-14 minor fills and drains. Odd.. I wonder what the purpose of that is

Then it drained and filled for the first wash which only lasted 20 minutes before it drained.
It refilled and did two final rinses as far as I could figure before it shut down on the 60 min mark.
It spends a helluva lot more time pre rinsing and final rinsing that it does actually washing.

Another thing is it sounds like it speeds up and slows down at points throughout all the cycles..

Anyways, happy with the results of the one hour wash, just cracked the door open a little and they're dry in about 25 minutes.


Post# 585519 , Reply# 71   3/28/2012 at 15:07 (4,382 days old) by jerrod6 (Southeastern Pennsylvania)        

So many fills, so many drains before it really gets to doing anything.  I would also like to know the purpose of this fill/drain routine...sounds a bit annoying.


Post# 585521 , Reply# 72   3/28/2012 at 15:20 (4,382 days old) by jerrod6 (Southeastern Pennsylvania)        

This post has been removed by the member who posted it.



Post# 585530 , Reply# 73   3/28/2012 at 16:03 (4,382 days old) by joefuss1984 (Little Rock, AR)        
perhaps

joefuss1984's profile picture

Perhaps it is tempering the water?  Since it is only a 1 hour wash, does it want to have only the hottest water available for best results?  I know nothing about this but the idea just popped in my head so I am throwing it out. haha!


Post# 585618 , Reply# 74   3/28/2012 at 21:49 (4,382 days old) by jerrod6 (Southeastern Pennsylvania)        

Joe...Well that's a thought.  However in the cycles that my parents 1971 KA wanted hot water for the first fill, it just let the water run in and pumped it out for about 45 seconds as soon as you started it.  It was a continuous process,water coming in, running out. After 45 seconds the drain valve closed and then in about 20 seconds the Dw would begin spraying the dishes.  I think I read that this draining has something to do with determining the soil level, but I don't understand why this would be happening  in units with a turbidity sensor.


Post# 585887 , Reply# 75   3/30/2012 at 09:10 (4,380 days old) by Jetcone (Schenectady-Home of Calrods,Monitor Tops,Toroid Transformers)        
OMG

jetcone's profile picture
Love that quote!
"What are the engineers thinking? You might as well pee on your dishes - it's going to be about the same temp and you may even get a better flow. 105 degree water isn't going to acheive any hygienic standard, I don't care how long you leave them in there. I hand wash in water hotter than that."

HOW TRUE!

Love my 10 year old KA with garberator!!



Post# 585889 , Reply# 76   3/30/2012 at 09:11 (4,380 days old) by Jetcone (Schenectady-Home of Calrods,Monitor Tops,Toroid Transformers)        
has hydrosweep cleaning

jetcone's profile picture
my hot water is around 145-155.

The only thing I've ever had to do with this machine is every year or two the pump cover bolts work themselves loose under the spray arm and water shoots out under the door all over the floor. Just a quick tweak and she is good for another year or so.






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