Thread Number: 39806
Modern Energy Efficiency 		[Down to Last]

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Post# 589436   4/14/2012 at 19:10 (4,386 days old) by washer111 ()        

I was recently reading a thread about a 78 GE Potscrubber II for sale, and the ramblings about energy efficiency there.

I think, that saving water and energy these days is completely over-rated! We're constantly being told that old refrigerators use too much energy, can destroy the ozone layer (not if they are working) and might cost us more to run. But what about replacing a TOL model every 5 years or so? There goes $1200, plus the associated running costs - French door and Side by Side models today STILL suck on the cord, and in some cases produce poor cooling results.

The same goes for dishwashers. Why use half the water you did with that 92 Asko, when you can have a new Frigidaire that uses half, and will require a trip Walmart, Lowes etc (Hey, I'm Australian, please excuse this bit) every 6 months to ask the salesman how to get good results, or to see what he will try to sell you now?

Doesn't anyone feel a little pressured about this? If we are saving so much by having the latest and greatest, are we really saving by having products ending up in landfill, since its just "cheaper to buy a new one?" I think what manufacturers need to do is create decent quality machines, simple for the technophobes (as in people who absolutely HATE computers) and then have the computerised up-rate models. Then, release bigger and better machines.

How come manufacturers made money back then? The answer is simple. People who want the biggest and best will upgrade every 3-8 year(s), purchasing the best models again and again. The older stuff was sold on, or people trash-picked it, and voila! PROFIT. That's what they need to rely on. People are better off today (generalisation) than they were, so more will have this attitude.

Our 99' pigeon pair of fridge and freezer were only "supposed" to last 8-10 years, but they are going on 12 years, and still run like new. Sure, a shelve or two has cracked, and the freezer may only ever cycle off for defrost, but that's better than modern constant start and stop!




Post# 589455 , Reply# 1   4/14/2012 at 20:24 (4,386 days old) by thomasortega (El Pueblo de Nuestra Señora de Los Angeles de Porciúncula)        

That's exactly what Mueller is doing not that they finally entered the premium market in Brazil and soon in other countries.

Cheaper machines, made simple and built to last. A light by the end of the tunnel.

The english version will be working before the end of this month.

CLICK HERE TO GO TO thomasortega's LINK
Post# 589459 , Reply# 2   4/14/2012 at 20:27 (4,386 days old) by thomasortega (El Pueblo de Nuestra Señora de Los Angeles de Porciúncula)        
errata!

 above, where it's written "...is doing, not that they..." please read "is doing NOW that they..."

Post# 589536 , Reply# 3   4/15/2012 at 04:12 (4,386 days old) by dj-gabriele ()        

I'm with the idea that old isn't necessarily better, in fact most of the time new is better.
But old appliances should be kept till they're running or can be easily repaired.
There's absolutely no necessity of changing a washing machine/fridge/whatever if it's working properly for a new model, the cost of the change isn't almost ever worth the increased running expense (there are some exceptions to this!).

But on the other hand I must say that (take this as an example) the dishwasher at my Aunt is almost 30 years old, that's a REX (Zanussi made) machine before the Electrolux take over, premium brand for the time.
It still works but dishes must be pre-rinsed/srubbed, something that never ever happened at my place or at my mother's where the machine is able to clean even baked on crud ad they do so using one half to one third of the water and energy compared to the one at my Aunt.
Will you please picture using 1 kWh of energy VS. using 3 and using 12 litres of water VS. using 30? At our prices that's a saving of 0,50€ PER WASH!
Of course if the machine lasts barely out of the warranty I will be disappointed but if I choose wisely at buying time avoiding "el cheapo" brands and look for something at least mid-range (I don't believe in expensive TOL as most of it is gimmick) I'll be fine, with a compromise and getting 10 years out of an appliance is fine for me.
Consider that things aren't built to last 25 years anymore and construction reflects this so there are also less resources employed so environmental impact is less too.

Post# 589701 , Reply# 4   4/15/2012 at 16:53 (4,385 days old) by arbilab (Ft Worth TX (Ridglea))        

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Oh yeah. Save $5 a year on utilities and bury $1500 in the landfill every OTHER year. Now THAT'S economy. [rolleyes]

Post# 589708 , Reply# 5   4/15/2012 at 17:11 (4,385 days old) by washer111 ()        

Replying to dj-gabriele:

Making things cheaper built etc isn't necessarily better for the environment. Its ok now, since it saves so many resources ending up in the landfill (due to cheap quality etc), but saving the environment a little on the production line is nothing compared to replacing something frequently.

Like I said before, the well-heeled who must have the latest and greatest can keep companies running, and the companies might be able to run factory refurbished products - for people who might keep their dishwashers for 15 years or so ("till the bitter end"). That would save plenty of landfill. Or, they could recycle their rubbish products better.

At the moment, we are at the point where saving any more water is practically impossible for a dishwasher, unless we are willing to wait 6 hours for clean dishes... No thanks! So really, anything made within the last 20 years even is pretty good. Remembering that the Asko 1302/1402 series can use equivalent amounts of water to today's machines (16.5L without prewash), so really, no point in upgrading unless you hate noise!

Post# 589791 , Reply# 6   4/15/2012 at 21:26 (4,385 days old) by logixx (Germany)        

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I keep reading about "the crusher" and "landfills" here a lot. What is the American's attitude towards recycling?

Post# 589828 , Reply# 7   4/15/2012 at 23:05 (4,385 days old) by arbilab (Ft Worth TX (Ridglea))        

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What is Americans' attitude toward recycling? From fanatical to calculated indifference. Even certain recycling businesses refuse certain recyclables because they are not "convenient" to process. It varies by municipality and servicer. Austin would take newspaper but not phone books, and only HDPE plastics. Dallas will take phonebooks and shipping cardboard but not food or beverage cardboard, food glass but not window glass. This apartment complex puts discarded appliances out and calls a steel guy who comes if he feels like it. If he doesn't come in a week it goes in the dumpster/landfill.

There is no consistency at all.

Post# 589829 , Reply# 8   4/15/2012 at 23:22 (4,385 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        
The United States Has Really No National Policy On Recycling

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So its left to state and or local level government.

At the moment due to high prices for metals and a poor economy demand for scrap is very high. Put any appliance out on the curb around here, and within <3 hours it is gone. Certianly by the next morning it would have been hacked to bits for anything that can be recycled.

Various times of the year NYC hosts appliance recycle days where one can bring old appliances/electronics,but who has the space to store things for several months.

IMHO the USA should take a page from EU countries and mandate appliance/electronics makers provide some sort of recycling at time of purchase. Much the same as bottles carry a deposit here in NYC. To their credit companies such as Dell will send one a shipping label that allows free transport of an old computer to a recycling center when a new unit is purchased, but that sort of thing is few and far between.

Being as that may at least in NYC there is a lively private recycle effort. Starting late afternoon and on through the evening you'll see persons on foot, car, truck (even if it is rented) driving around looking for scrap metal and paper. They pick up the boxes and paper put out by businesses for rubbish, and even though such collections of domestic rubbish are illegal, they will take that as well.

Post# 589851 , Reply# 9   4/16/2012 at 02:10 (4,385 days old) by dj-Gabriele ()        

Perhaps you didn't read my post thoroughly or I didn't explain well enough.

I meant using less resources in building, not building crappier machines. That's different.
Plus I'm not saying that we can go much further in the reduction of water and energy use, our current technology is fine but I was simply comparing, with real life examples "old" and "new". Plus @Arbilab, it's not 5$ a year but, as I use both washing machine and dishwasher everyday and more it's some 150-250€ per year, you recoup the cost in a very short time frame.

As for landfilling as was said, all over Europe was introduced compulsory appliances recycling and each consumer pays a (called "RAAE" here in Italy) tax on each piece bought that goes from 0,20 for lamps to 15€ for A/C equipment for their dismantling in an environmental responsible way.

Post# 590001 , Reply# 10   4/16/2012 at 17:45 (4,384 days old) by washer111 ()        

@dj-gabriele

I'm very glad that the EU requires appliance recycling, Hopefully, they actually do something about older refrigerators, unlike Australian systems which just leave the units out to release toxic gas. Disposing of gas is also expensive here, and many serviceman will simply release the gas of an air-conditioner to avoid having to lug huge 20kg gas tanks from the roof of a large building (etc).

By the way, if we replaced some of our appliances today (pigeon pair refrigerator and freezer) with a fancy french door machine, we'd only save around $20 per year from not having a refrigerator running. Its really only worth replacing something if it costs huge amounts to run, and the replacement is guaranteed to last a long time, and be repaid within 5-10 years of purchase. That is where our Solar hot water heating systems fall over!

They only last around 12 years, and the high initial cost, plus installation then all the days you must run gas or electric boost in the winter (yes, it is necessary! Especially in Melbourne), then really, "Solarhart" starts becoming more and more of a money pit than anything else.

Here is my own opinion, probably quite clear by now:
I guess if we build garbage with less resources, then its not as bad for Earth. But still, building bad quality stuff that has a limited service life is poor attitude from the manufacturers! Why, some front loader machines here cannot have their bearings serviced, and are therefore relegated to the scrap pile very young in the lives.
I have seen videos of people who visit these scrap yards, pull in LG's, Bosch, Siemens etc who have failed in one way, or another, then do "Spin cycle of Death" videos!

Like I said before. Manufacturers need to build good quality stuff for the middle class and rich(er) people, who might remodel their kitchens/homes every few years. That way, their fairly new stuff ends up going down the chain, which is what I see fit for a manufacturer.

Here is my question. How come all the "big brands" survived the years of high quality, well built laundry and kitchen appliances? From Pre WW2 and the post WW2?

Certainly food for thought.

Post# 590093 , Reply# 11   4/16/2012 at 23:28 (4,384 days old) by arbilab (Ft Worth TX (Ridglea))        

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It's not "economical" for the earth OR for the customer, to build junk appliances that fall apart in 3yrs average use. No matter what "energy sticker" they have on them. Not even if they put out more energy than they consume (an impossibility of course, but just to make the point).

The US does have fairly strict federal laws for freon. Anyone buying it has to be licensed and a provision of the license is that freon is never deliberately released but must be evacuated and captured. Individual appliance owners can still take their fridge in the yard and use it as a shotgun target (except cities where shotguns are prohibited). But licensed repairers cannot release the gas or their license can be revoked. I don't know if that law applies to recyclers, like say, crushing the appliance for the steel.

Post# 590130 , Reply# 12   4/17/2012 at 03:00 (4,384 days old) by dj-Gabriele ()        
Solarhart

 It's the brand of our solar system too! :)
It lasted from 1994 to 2008 when the boiler corroded badly and we shut the system off!
Now we're on methane for hot water and we're waiting till the current combi-boiler dies to get a new combi-solar system!
(Not now because they're expensive!)

Post# 590348 , Reply# 13   4/17/2012 at 17:31 (4,383 days old) by washer111 ()        

Solar hot water systems currently cost far too much for it to be a practical to install one of those here. It costs approximately $4000 for the unit big enough for a family of 4, then you add removal of the old one, installation, testing etc + the electrician to hook up the electric boost to it (in areas where gas supplies are via bottles).

If they were so serious about getting us to be "green" then honestly, they'd make the "green" products cheaper, and long lasting. Solarhart claims that with REGULAR sacrificial anode changing, the systems will last 20 Years +. For many people, the max life was only 12 years on city water, where there was no corrosion, and the system simply "died."

Post# 590410 , Reply# 14   4/17/2012 at 20:29 (4,383 days old) by brisnat81 (Brisbane Australia)        

Hi Washer1111

We had to replace our electric system with solar about 18 months ago. The total cost for a 2 panel 420L system was about $3500 after rebates. In Queensland (Obviously hotter than Melbourne) our powerbill has gone from $400 per quarter to $200 with no other changes.

So we're saving $800 per year which means that it'll have paid for itself in about 2.5 years. ($3500 SHW cost - $1500 electric storage cost =$2000 difference)

To me whilst the upfront cost is high, it'll have paid for itself by this time next year and I should get at least another 10 years of hotwater before there is any additional outlay. That seems to be good value to me.

The system on Mum's house is a Solahart installed in 1978, we're expecting it to fail soon, but so far its had almost no maintenance.

The unit at Michaels mums was installed in 1976, the Panels are still original, but the first tank only lasted until 1999. The second tank is still going without issues for now. Her only maintenance has been a new pump impellor every 8 years or so.


Post# 590423 , Reply# 15   4/17/2012 at 21:37 (4,383 days old) by washer111 ()        

Interesting. Since we don't have an electric system to get the rebate (believe, we thought of finding on old electric system and putting it on the roof to get a rebate), the cost is far higher.

I really think the rebates make it more expensive for everyone else. But really, depending on where you are, the savings will differ. In Queensland, Northern NSW, NT, WA etc, you shouldn't need electric. Gas or Solar is fine.But in Vic and SA, I'd assume that you'd be using the booster at least for 1/4 of each year, especially with Melbourne being a cloudy place.

But if the government wants to encourage the use of Solar hot water, why not give everyone grants to replace older, inefficient solar heaters (if they are so), and help everyone? That would work. Maybe not so popular with tax payers though!

I think Solahart are running a bit of a "rip-off" business. According to some reviews, the installers are clueless about plumbing, and have left people with terrible leaks and without hot water for weeks. They also don't come as standard with cutout thermostats to stop them boiling water during Summer (which I'm sure happens in the Sunny locations of this country routinely), causing scalds and burns!

So they should rethink their strategy. Instead of "We'll charge $4000 because people pay to be green, and then we make more money." To, "We'll charge $1500, around the same as Electric and Gas systems, to encourage switchers and keep our customers for the future."

Post# 590464 , Reply# 16   4/18/2012 at 02:12 (4,383 days old) by dj-Gabriele ()        

Our next choice would be a SIME (Italian made and Italian company) system.

It'd be a drain-back flat type solar collector (evacuated tubes gets way too hot here and are too expensive) with a storage tank of 250L.
The boiler gets primary heat from the solar collectors and if the temperature goes below 40°C the combi-boiler kicks in, it also gets turned on if in the past month water temperature never reached at least 60°C to prevent legionellosis.

The drain-back system is something we like because it removes any risk of frozen liquid in the panels in winter and at the same times prevents over-heating (stagnation) in the summer as the collectors are empty when the recirculation pump doesn't run. This method also allows to have hotter water in the winter as there isn't any cooling loss and water flows only if there is a differential of temperature between tank and collectors.

The down-side is that a complete system costs around 6000€ (around 7800AUD) that's why we have to postpone the expense! (BTW: yesterday arrived the gas bill: from august to march it was 790 Nm^3, quite a huge amount for a well insulated house as ours! Not only you can't buy something that will make you save on utilities because of the price but also you're going to pay more because of that!)

Post# 590969 , Reply# 17   4/20/2012 at 05:57 (4,380 days old) by volsboy1 (East Tenn Smoky mountains )        

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I have to agree with Arbliab when it comes to this green thing that everybody so wrapped up in it because, if you look at it close it don't wash well.The dishwasher's that you get seem to last about 4 years 5 if your lucky.There used to be dishwasher's that could wash your dishes and dry them is less than an hour.They had larger motors and pushed 64 gallons a min through there arms and used about 13/15 gallons of water but the machine would last 20+ years.Now we have dishwasher's that have these 100 watt motors and will run for 7 hours. Whirlpool resource saver the normal cycle is about 3.5 hours of running but, they have a button on there that says hour wash but they warn you that it uses more power and is not efficient .That overnite cycle it says it's to save on energy but, if you used that wash cycle you would be putting years of more wear on the machine and be buying a new one.I don't get why they put such small motors on them them.The Maytag tall tub the last real Maytag had a 1/3H.P. motor on it but it drew 2.2 Amps that is not bad at all for a 1/3 H.P. induction motor.I have a T.O.L. G.E. out on the porch that is less than 2 years old could never clean right.I now have a new  L.G. dishwasher and so far it's great, cleans everything but, the reviews worry me.I also have that new L.G. 31 Cubic foot fridge with the french doors and I love it but,it has a linear compressor and it makes strange noises like a car engine knocking.Is it helping having machines going to the landfill twice as often compared a older machine that uses more water and not a aquarium pump motor on it?I have had emails from smug folks in here because, I wanted a nice old Kitchenaid dishwasher. He was fussing about the water and power use the machine used and then went in to a tantrum because, my family owns a huge farm and our huge trucks use to much gas.I can't say what I said back to him in this section but, most of the words were four letters.We grow soybean and make milk on that farm that is what a farm does,I have no clue why he was so mad about that he eats everything comes from some farm.
Post# 591129 , Reply# 18   4/21/2012 at 00:22 (4,380 days old) by arbilab (Ft Worth TX (Ridglea))        

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One thing is pretty clear, that marketing has co-opted and corrupted "green" because as always, marketing counts on buyers doing what they're told rather than what makes quantifiable sense.

Post# 591152 , Reply# 19   4/21/2012 at 01:37 (4,380 days old) by washer111 ()        

When our current refrigerator and freezer pair were bought in 1999, we were told they would only last around 7-10 years. 13 years later, the Fisher and Paykel units bought back then are still running like champions! We are very pleased with that. F&P now make more modern versions of the exact units we bought back then too.

There are also reports of the oldest DishDrawers still running perfectly (DD601 etc after 13 years). The first ones (as many found out) were very troublesome, and had issues with roach eggs being laid in the old inflatable door seal (now just a lowering lid) - which would eventually be eaten through. You get a flooded dishwasher plus a cocky infestation!

Fisher and Paykel here have won various awards these past few months - their fridges have the Choice Award in 2012 for best refrigerator (temperature, reliability, features etc). Their CoolDrawers have won Women's Weekly awards for convenience (I believe).

So really, I think the Kiwi's have made the perfect balance. I know of people with 2003/2004 dish drawers still running like champs with little repairs (repairs mainly due to lack of bottom drawer use or F1 error caused by lid not closing correctly).

But yes, machines certainly don't last as long anymore...


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