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Thread Number: 39994
Glimpses of the future or gimmicks that'll fade into obscurity? |
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Post# 592144 4/25/2012 at 19:51 (4,376 days old) by joeekaitis  (Rialto, California, USA) |
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 I'm posting this here because it's as much about vintage as modern dishwashers. Wash tubes, spinning racks, "water blades" and other self-styled "dishwasher of the future" designs have come and gone, but the good ol' spray arm soldiers on. Kenmore and Frigidaire aren't abandoning it but two modifications of the lower spray arm in their Elite and Gallery dishwashers respectively have an air of gimmickry, given that most Consumer Reports "Best Buy" rated models earn their blue check-marks without 'em. Kenmore calls theirs target=new>360 PowerWash Technology and your humble observer can already see a potential point-of-failure. That exposed gear drive is just waiting to be jammed by, say, an overlooked pinto bean, stopping the magic motion and resulting in a load you have to wash again. Not to be out-gimmicked, er, uh, outdone, Frigidaire offers target=new> Orbit Clean. The blue spinner sprayer appears to be pressure-driven, but that means it would be the first part to feel the effect of a pressure drop due to motor aging or impeller wear. Both designs overlook the fact that water, like sound, ricochets all around. Load any dishwasher properly and every load comes out sparkling. They're solutions in search of a problem. Like the designs mentioned in the first paragraph, wait 10 years and see if any become commonplace through reverse engineering or as patents expire. My prediction: they'll all have been replaced by something else in top-o'-the-line models and they still won't clean any better. | ||
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| Post# 592219 , Reply# 1 4/26/2012 at 01:47 (4,376 days old) by qualin (Canada) | ||
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Part of me loves to watch gimmickry like this... I agree that the powerwash system looks kind of like a dumb idea. | ||
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Post# 592220 , Reply# 2 4/26/2012 at 01:49 (4,376 days old) by tolivac (greenville nc) |
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Both of those could be jammed by a fallen utensil!They are interesting to watch.Again the doors on the machines should be transparent so you could be entertained.and you would be able to see if the sprayers were jammed by a pinto bean or untensil. | ||
| Post# 592246 , Reply# 4 4/26/2012 at 05:15 (4,376 days old) by DishwasherRules (Italy) | ||
A gimmick returns
Frigidaire's Orbit Clean is just the same gimmick featured by the European Electrolux and Zanussi's dishwasher range and is named FlexiSpray: I know that Electrolux own Frigidaire in the US, but according to me Orbit Clean/FlexiSpray is just a redisign of the washing technology of the "dynamic" dishwashers produced by Zanussi in the 60s (I have something on that, I'll try to post some scans here later). If I lived in the US and had to buy a new dishwasher, I'd go for a Kenmore 360 PowerWash!! Ivan | ||
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Post# 592260 , Reply# 7 4/26/2012 at 06:12 (4,376 days old) by vacbear58 (Sutton In Ashfield, East Midlands, UK) |
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A gimmick returns | ||
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Post# 592287 , Reply# 9 4/26/2012 at 08:07 (4,376 days old) by Kenmore71 (Minneapolis, MN) |
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I was particularly struck by the language used in the video. It "blasts" dishes with water? The video showed what looked to be a very gentle rain shower! Now, a blast of water would be the single spray arm of a KDS-16. Heck, even the WP/KM Power Clean/Ultra Wash was a blast compared to what I saw in that video.
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| Post# 592330 , Reply# 10 4/26/2012 at 11:55 (4,376 days old) by dj-gabriele () | ||
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Yeah, more pissing than anything else indeed :) | ||
| Post# 592332 , Reply# 11 4/26/2012 at 12:05 (4,376 days old) by jaxsunst () | ||
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than again, people said that about dual-action agitators........... | ||
| Post# 592336 , Reply# 12 4/26/2012 at 12:13 (4,376 days old) by william637 (Damp pants? Not a chance. ) | ||
I'm with kenmore71
It is an interesting concept - didn't Frigidaire have a similar system in the 70's?
In the video demonstrations I have seen, there are two problems with the 360 power wash. A) there is not enough pressure/velocity to scour dishes (all it will do is mist and soak them). B) the entire spray arm moves far too quickly (a moving spray arm on yet another moving spray arm means the weak spray never has period where it is "scrubbing" a surface). These machines are about as effective as getting your fingertips wet and flinging water at your dishes. Sure, if the water is hot enough and you flick long enough, you will be able to rinse some residues away - but you aren't going to clean really dirty things that way. | ||
| Post# 592359 , Reply# 13 4/26/2012 at 14:30 (4,376 days old) by brummybear (Birmingham uk) | ||
Asking for it ! | ||
| Post# 592431 , Reply# 14 4/27/2012 at 00:11 (4,375 days old) by qualin (Canada) | ||
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I'm suddenly reminded of an Episode of "Home Improvement" where Tim Allen tries to soup up his dishwasher and fails miserably at it. These systems would work so much better if they moved so much more water. | ||
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Post# 592617 , Reply# 19 4/28/2012 at 07:43 (4,374 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md) |
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Multi-Orbit Wash Arms Etc. These are very sound ways of helping move water around inside a DW and past uses of this technolgy caused almost no service problems.
F&P dish drawers like all DWs ever made have sumps where the water collects as it renters the pump. And yes F&P DWs [ like all DWs ever made can do a good job cleaning dishes ] But they have one of the worst sump traps of any DW currently made in that they collect almost all of the food particles and hold it in the machine for you to clean out. And of coerce all the water your dishes are rinsed with is pulled through this garbage.
I know of almost no DW made in the last 10 years that still fills with at least two gallons of water per fill. as a result manufacturers have had to slow down the pumps power because so much water would be in the air that the pump would surge and starve for water.
MT RR DWs actually moved very little water compared to almost all other US machines of the same time period. They used very fine hi pressure jets with good filtering to achieve great cleaning. But if your ever saw one running next to a KA or WP there was no comparison in over all water movement.
To me the biggest gimmick today is the WP built DW with the dedicated Turbo-Zone area in the back of the lower rack or the dedicated silver-ware shower. The last thing I want to worry about when loading a DW is trying to put ONE very dirty item in a particular spot. I want to be able to load the machine in the most sensible way and get every thing clean, NOT just one really dirty item. When I make a large meal I often have at least a half dozen very dirty utensils from the cook-top or oven to deal with. | ||
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Post# 592731 , Reply# 22 4/28/2012 at 19:50 (4,373 days old) by petek (Ontari ari ari O ) |
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Post# 593087 , Reply# 27 4/30/2012 at 09:28 (4,372 days old) by logixx (Germany) |
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Post# 593110 , Reply# 30 4/30/2012 at 11:27 (4,372 days old) by rapunzel (Sydney) |
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N.B. Most appliance and kitchen retailers offer Insinkerators as part of their appliance line up. They are not hard to find and readily available. | ||
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Post# 593205 , Reply# 35 4/30/2012 at 18:51 (4,371 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md) |
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Disposers and plumbing Disposers are good for plumbing systems as they help keep the drains clean with all the ground matter. Here in Washington DC Disposers are REQUIRED in all home kitchens and commercial food establishments. If waste water is properly treated disposers are GOOD for the environment as the collected materiel decomposes quickly and is returned to use as fertilizer. Disposers are also a good thing for septic systems as it adds greatly to the amount of beneficial material that goes into the septic tank.
Disposers are similar to the back-flush self-cleaning lint filters that WP-KM used on their washers for over 25 years in that they actually helped keep laundry drains clean with the scrubbing effect of lint being flushed down all at once. | ||
| Post# 593342 , Reply# 38 5/1/2012 at 09:44 (4,371 days old) by dj-gabriele () | ||
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Here's the relevant English page. You can scroll the manual and read it in English if you want! The "tappo convogliatore" is just a conveyor to help press the stuff in the disposer. CLICK HERE TO GO TO dj-gabriele's LINK | ||
| Post# 593372 , Reply# 39 5/1/2012 at 11:33 (4,371 days old) by firedome (Binghamton NY & Lake Champlain VT) | ||
Garbage disposals and Trash compactors... | ||
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Post# 593532 , Reply# 40 5/2/2012 at 00:56 (4,370 days old) by tolivac (greenville nc) |
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Better to have the food waste go down the disposer than go into the solid waste stream. | ||
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Post# 593751 , Reply# 43 5/2/2012 at 19:07 (4,369 days old) by logixx (Germany) |
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"So How do self cleaning filters work? Do they use 4L of water to flush away dirt at the end of wash, 1st rinse, 2nd rinse etc?"
As you can see from my very professional drawing [insert dramatic pause here], self-cleaning filters use two streams of water. During washing and rinsing, water flows through the filter - shown by the darker blue lines. Soil collects on the filter's surface. During draining, the wash/rinse water is flushed along the surface of the filter, carrying the soil away and down the drain. 
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Post# 593775 , Reply# 44 5/2/2012 at 22:14 (4,369 days old) by wayupnorth (On a lake between Bangor and Bar Harbor, Maine) |
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I get the plastic bags (yes) when I buy groceries and save them for either recycling glass and cans or garbage and throw them all into our weekly collection bins. I have an uphill septic pump and would never put a disposal that could cause problems with the pump or system and was advised to only use one ply white toilet paper. So far, almost 18 years and no problems, knock on wood. I would like to work out a way to drain the Maytag's 40 gallons of water every load into the woods around me.
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Post# 594028 , Reply# 49 5/3/2012 at 19:33 (4,368 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md) |
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GEs DW Self Cleaning Filter GE was actually ahead of it time as Barry mentioned, most other DWs went to a filter that does not filter all the water constantly. During that 45 minute wash GE used you can be sure all the wash water is filtered many many times. And as I mentioned in another post the problem with the old KAs and the original MT RR DWs is that the filter can clog and block all most all wash action. The WP PC design and KA KD-23s was the first really effective filter system that could not clog and slow down the wash action. And to this day was the most effective, powerful pump and filtering and food disposing system EVER installed in a home DW. | ||
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Post# 594138 , Reply# 51 5/4/2012 at 10:39 (4,368 days old) by joeekaitis (Rialto, California, USA) |
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Post# 594140 , Reply# 52 5/4/2012 at 11:13 (4,368 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md) |
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Early MT DWs | ||
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Post# 594356 , Reply# 55 5/5/2012 at 06:06 (4,367 days old) by jamiel (Detroit, Michigan and Palm Springs, CA) |
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bwoods, thanks for that explanation...we had a 980? (one step down from a 1200) for years (replaced a 1978 Kitchenaid in 1988 or so which never turned out to be very satisfactory). The GE worked very nicely all the years my parents had it. I'd never really understood the filtering process in the GE (other than it was clearly a step-up feature in the line) but the passive design makes perfect sense. They have a rubber collection chamber/sump under the tub. It was a very clever design which made them a lot of $$ over the years...it was both a relatively easy adaptation of the plastic-tub design (one of the real benefits of their moving to the plastic tub was the ease with which they could make these types of changes) and provided a good washing performance. Thanks for the clear explanation!
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Post# 594442 , Reply# 57 5/5/2012 at 17:42 (4,366 days old) by logixx (Germany) |
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washer111, fast-forward to about 7:30. This educational video from a German children's TV show shows a Miele dishwasher draining (and cleaning) the filter system.
CLICK HERE TO GO TO logixx's LINK | ||
| Post# 594454 , Reply# 59 5/5/2012 at 18:55 (4,366 days old) by Rolls_rapide (.) | ||
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It is not a Miele... It is a Siemens. | ||
| Post# 594457 , Reply# 60 5/5/2012 at 18:59 (4,366 days old) by Rolls_rapide (.) | ||
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OOOPS... ...spoke far too soon! I should have watched the whole video. My apologies. (red faced, slinks away into a corner). | ||
| Post# 596226 , Reply# 61 5/13/2012 at 17:43 (4,358 days old) by AutoWasherFreak () | ||
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Again the doors on the machines should be transparent so you If my washer, dryer, and dishwasher all had transparent door, I would get any work done, I would be to busy watching everything wash and dry, LOL. | ||
| Post# 596237 , Reply# 62 5/13/2012 at 18:43 (4,358 days old) by nmassman44 (Brooksville Florida) | ||
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Post# 597022 , Reply# 63 5/17/2012 at 09:37 (4,355 days old) by logixx (Germany) |
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Post# 597116 , Reply# 64 5/17/2012 at 18:00 (4,354 days old) by rapunzel (Sydney) |
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'Another one of the ProClean dishwashers: ' Interesting and strange how the bottom wash arm turns by increments. That orbital red doobimagic doesn't seem to fully cover the cutlery basket with its spray either. | ||
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Post# 824516 , Reply# 66 5/21/2015 at 15:31 (3,256 days old) by GELaundry4ever (Nacogdoches, TX, USA) |
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I'm referring to... I'm referring to today's dishwashers. | ||
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Post# 824517 , Reply# 67 5/21/2015 at 15:34 (3,256 days old) by GELaundry4ever (Nacogdoches, TX, USA) |
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high-temp wash The so-called high-temp wash on most of today's dishwashers is a joke! It doesn't go up to 140 degrees F at all! Oh, by the way, you will be forced to used this option if you want dishes remotely clean! | ||
| Post# 824541 , Reply# 68 5/21/2015 at 18:36 (3,255 days old) by washer111 () | ||
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Yikes.... This thread was started not long after I became a member here... Low power pumps does not equal poor cleaning. DishDrawers have a pump that is only about 50-80w from my recollection, and still clean awesomely, IMO. | ||
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Post# 824553 , Reply# 69 5/21/2015 at 19:52 (3,255 days old) by cuffs054 (MONTICELLO, GA) |
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I donon know. The blue tooth feature in the new Frig models seems like a keeper to me... | ||
| Post# 824556 , Reply# 70 5/21/2015 at 20:29 (3,255 days old) by murando531 (Augusta, Georgia - US) | ||
It's not necessarily the low power pumps that are the problem, it's more the saturation of gimmicks and marketing towards things that don't make a big difference, and less attention to the details that matter. If a manufacturer can design a motor and pump that outputs the power needed but only uses the energy in an hour that a previous motor used in a minute, I'd be all over it.
It seems that here lately, brands like Whirlpool have improved their current machines to the point that they would actually be desirable. As far as I know, the motors used in the first generation of the "resource saver" design were ~100W, give or take. Upon looking at parts diagrams for the updated models now, the motor is 55W, but is a little more powerful with a modified impeller and chamber. They're apparently better at backwashing the filter to drain out the collected particles, as the manual now states to clean it every few months if you don't prerinse, rather than the previous "after every load" instructions. This is just from what I've heard and read though, so I may be wrong. End point, they have been doing better, it's just taken time to work out the kinks. Remember when people hated the Voyager design when it first launched? | ||
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