Thread Number: 40454
CLOUDY GLASSES 		[Down to Last]

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Post# 598633   5/24/2012 at 07:37 (4,348 days old) by mieleforever (SOUTH AFRICA)        

HI all, maybe somebody out there can help me. We have a Siemens dishwasher and use it all the time. What bothers me most about the machine is that our glasses is becoming more and more cloudy. We use finish tabs together with rinse aid and salt in salt dispenser. But still we get cloudy glasses, we live in a area with relatively soft water.

What I did notice after filling the salt dispenser is that the glasses look better, but then eventually it will start again.

Is there any advise on the matter?

Regards




Post# 598649 , Reply# 1   5/24/2012 at 08:50 (4,348 days old) by cphifer5115 (Jackson, TN)        

cphifer5115's profile picture
you should get some of that finish power booster that's been advertised in commercials about cloudy glasses. only about 6 bucks at walmart.

Post# 598654 , Reply# 2   5/24/2012 at 08:58 (4,348 days old) by Unimatic1140 (Minneapolis)        

unimatic1140's profile picture

I'm assuming this is a dishwasher that is less than 20 years old?  Let me know if it is a vintage machine and I will move it back to Imperial.
Post# 598686 , Reply# 3   5/24/2012 at 12:11 (4,347 days old) by rp2813 (Sannazay)        

rp2813's profile picture

Are they cloudy or are they starting to etch?  If it's just clouding, Lemishine or Finish Glass Magic (perhaps Glass Magic has been replaced by Power Up) should help.  If it's etching, that can be caused by not enough soil in the load for the detergent to work on, and so it ends up etching glassware.
Post# 598692 , Reply# 4   5/24/2012 at 12:47 (4,347 days old) by donprohel (I live in Munich - Germany, but I am Italian)        
Glass corrosion

 If I remember correctly (other members will tell) too soft water in the last rinse (drying rinse) can cause the glass to corrode and become cloudy.

Maybe you should determine whether the cloudiness is some sort of deposit (either grime or limescale) or if instead it is glass corrosion.

Try washing a glass with vinegar: if the cloudiness disappear, then it is not corrosion and the glasses can be saved.

I have read (again, I am not sure) that a very mild abrasive as toothpaste can restore corroded glasses if used as a polisher and with a fair amount of elbow grease. I am not sure I believe this...

Post# 598739 , Reply# 5   5/24/2012 at 17:17 (4,347 days old) by SeamusUK (Dover Kent UK)        
Soft Water....

 seamusuk's profile picture
Donprohel is spot on- your water is too soft, try adjusting your water softener ;)

Seamus

Post# 598839 , Reply# 6   5/25/2012 at 06:08 (4,347 days old) by chris74 ()        
In Germany...

 ...we have Calgonit ("finish") Protector. This shall prevent glasses and overglazes from corrosion/etching. It is a kind of a stone or a small glass pebble in a plastic container which remains attached to a rack... Maybe you can get it via eBay Germany...

Post# 598955 , Reply# 7   5/25/2012 at 21:47 (4,346 days old) by bwoods ()        

From what I understand, there are two reasons glasses can become cloudy. Hard water deposits (calcium carbonate or "lime") or etching.

If your water is "hard" and your frequently run out of salt in the dishwashers softening mechanism, you may be getting hard water deposit. Run a rinse concentrated with white vinegar. If the glasses clear up, as DonProhel says, then yes it is a lime build up.

If the vinegar does nothing, then you have etched glasses. Etched glassware is permanent and occurs when dishwasher detergents pull the metal ions out of the glass itself. You might as well throw them away.

People blame the soft water, but it is actually the alkali detergent's fault. If the water is soft, then etching is more likely to occur. If the water is hard, the detergent binds with the calcium ions in the water and prevents it from reacting chemically with the glassware. But detergent performance is reduced in hard water for that very reason.

In years past, Consumer Reports tested DW detergents and, within the ratings, indicated which ones were more likely to etch glassware.


Water softness, Contact time with the detergent and improper rinsing seem to increase etching, and most of all, using too much detergent for a given water softness. Soft water does not require as much detergent as does hard water.

Someone mentioned lack of food wastes in the water could cause the detergent to be more aggressive in etching. I have never seen any information on this, but it makes perfect sense, as food waste would tie up free detergent molecules as the detergent tries to hold the food waste in suspension.

It seems that a lot of the newer dishwashers do everyone wrong, with respect to reducing etching.

Time is a big factor. The longer the detergent solution is in contact with the dishes the greater the etching that will occur.

Most newer model U.S. dishwasher have anemic "energy saving" motors that don't have enough power to blast off a lot of food wastes, so manufacturers have upped wash time to compensate. Two or three hours of exposing detergents to glassware is naturally going to promote etching. And even worse, many U.S. dishwashers have only one final rinse, which can leave residual detergent chemicals on the dishes.

So to reduce etching, I wouldn't reduce the softness of water. It should be zero grains per gallon (or as close as you can get) hardness. Otherwise you are just trading one problem for another. Detergent cleans best in soft water and dishes rinse better, and deposits on dishware as well as the machine/tub/racks is reduced or virtually eliminated.

I would recommend:

1.) Not pre-rinsing the dishes.

2.) Use a detergent rated low in etching, if you can find such.Cut down on the amount of detergent if your water is "soft"! If you use a powdered detergent that is easy. If you use a tablet, break it in half. If you use a packet, there is not to much you can do from the reduction of detergent standpoint.

3.) Give the dishes an extra rinse at the end of the cycle. Easy if you have a dial timer. If it is electronic, you'll have to put it on rinse&hold after the cycle.

4.) Don't overload, as smaller loads allow for better rinsing.



Post# 598966 , Reply# 8   5/25/2012 at 22:49 (4,346 days old) by washer111 ()        

You mention that you use tablets.

I would only use tablets if your water is hard, or you have exceptionally dirty pots/pans. Otherwise, I believe powder is the best solution. If the machine has optional prewash cycles, turn that off, especially if you pre-rinse, but leave it on if you want some pre washing and the dishes are fairly dirty.

Next of all, with soft water, reduce your detergent usage till you see the etching stop. If it continues and you can get rid of the etching with vinegar, set the rinse-aid higher and use the recommended dosage for detergent (this indicates hard water).

Otherwise, try to investigate if you can run a cycle with "extra rinse" engaged. Such as a dishwasher like the newest DD's which include a 3rd rinse on "Heavy" or its Eco selection now (on all models).
Otherwise, you may have to wait till the drying cycle, return the timer to the 2nd rinse (or, with computer models) select "Rinse/Hold" to rinse off extra stuff. Your manual should include some sort of cycle progression chart, so you could look at this to see what cycle to use, or download one off the internet - either way, if there is a way to get another rinse cycle, then the manual should state it.

Would it be possible to include a make & model for us? That would be beneficial, as member's who'd possibly had the same or similar machine might be able to help you.

Best of luck!
Washer111
P.S.
@Mielelover
It sounds like you are using TOO MUCH detergent, especially if you are using the built-on water softener. Remember, that the Salt is used to regenerate the "ion-exchange resins" contained within the machine, which softens incoming water to a "rain-water like" state.
If the detergent use chart has different amounts for different hardness, then use the recommended for the softest water (lowest Mg/L/GPG or dhº of hardness), which is usually 1/3 less than with hard water.
I wouldn't bother with tablets in soft water, as mentioned above. Use a good quality powder such as "Finish Double Concentrate" in a 1.5KG plastic box or appropriate equivalent.

P.P.S.
@bwoods
Looking at my cycle progression chart for the older GE Potscrubbers (namely the 1200M/V/L series later on) on the "Light Wash," "Energy Saver" and "China/Crystal" cycles, there was only 1 rinse after the main wash (according the user guide). Therefore, if the OP was "unlucky enough" to own the particular machine, he might wish to run "Normal Wash" or "Potscrubber" to gain the extra rinse, and use lots of rinse-aid to stop hardness issues, since I believe Africa generally has hard-water

Post# 600052 , Reply# 9   5/31/2012 at 07:44 (4,341 days old) by chris74 ()        
I ordered Finish Power Up...

 ...on amazon.com. Hope it works well on glassware... There is another product from them called "Glass Magic". What is this?

Post# 600063 , Reply# 10   5/31/2012 at 09:10 (4,341 days old) by mieleforever (SOUTH AFRICA)        
Well it seems better

 when I refill the saltdispencer. I dont know is a ph level of between 7 & 6,5 considered hard water? We dont really get a build up of that white powder on the kettle's element, only a kind of brownish discolouration.

So that makes me wonder why after I have refilled the salt, that the cloudiness on the glasses tend to be better.

By the way we have a Siemens but have no idea what model number it is.

regards



Post# 600073 , Reply# 11   5/31/2012 at 10:21 (4,340 days old) by chris74 ()        
pH level

 Has nothing to do with hard water...

Post# 600247 , Reply# 12   6/1/2012 at 07:16 (4,340 days old) by chris74 ()        
Had to cancel the order...

 ...due to outrageous shipping costs with myus.com... My wife freaked out when she heard about the prices!


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