Thread Number: 41003
The evolution of "Rinse and Hold", Rinse Only on dishwashers
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Post# 606452   6/26/2012 at 15:12 (4,293 days old) by verizonbear (Glen Burnie )        

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Question for all of you experts

Was the term "rinse and hold" trademarked by Hobart ?


Also, historically Rinse and Hold, Rinse Only, was only one rinse and then a drain, modern dishwashers do 2 rinses, to me that seems counter intuitive with the emphasis on water savings





Post# 606459 , Reply# 1   6/26/2012 at 15:25 (4,293 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        
Two Rinses For "Rinse & Hold"

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If they used the proper amount of water in the first place only one would be required IMHO.

Post# 606471 , Reply# 2   6/26/2012 at 15:43 (4,293 days old) by jerrod6 (Southeastern Pennsylvania)        

My  Miele DW from 2006 when using the Sensor or Ecomony cycles  may do three rinses(but not that often)for a heavily soiled load containing grease, pasta, starch, or if the second rinse contains too much suds; but that was 2006...not today's modern appliances.


Post# 606496 , Reply# 3   6/26/2012 at 16:54 (4,293 days old) by washer111 ()        
Rinse & Hold

This cycle was supposed to be for bad soiled dishes you wanted to get some strains off whilst they were still moist - or, you could call it pre-rinsing the dishes with LESS water than if each was manually pre-rinsed.

The "Hold" part I think meant that the dishes were being "held" for a full cycle at a later time, but if you kept the door shut/latched, then the dishes would remain "moist" and so heavier stains would be easier to remove come the full wash time.

Our DD (and our old Dishlex) do one Rinse for this cycle. Machines such as the GE Potscrubber 1200 and 2800 do 2 rinses - possibly to do with the self-clean filter or "flushing" away the dirty 100%. That, or the machine does a "purge fill" to bring some warm water to the machine before actually "rinsing"


Post# 606580 , Reply# 4   6/27/2012 at 00:46 (4,293 days old) by arbilab (Ft Worth TX (Ridglea))        

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My ~1985 GE is 2 fills. It says "rinse only" rather than "rinse hold". It also says to switch heated dry off.

Post# 606597 , Reply# 5   6/27/2012 at 04:39 (4,292 days old) by Frigilux (The Minnesota Prairie)        

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I've only used it once or twice, but I'm pretty sure my LG's rinse/hold has only one water fill. It's about 15 minutes long, as each rack gets about 6 minutes of spray action.

Post# 606599 , Reply# 6   6/27/2012 at 05:08 (4,292 days old) by mark_wpduet (Lexington KY)        
Good Question

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I personally never used that cycle, but I assumed that it was for dishes that were badly soiled, but not yet ready to be washed, so it just runs a rinse cycle with no detergent and then you can run the full cycle later. But in my case, it's always three days later, since it takes about three days for my dishwasher have a full load, so I've never used it. On my WP tall tub, I think it's called "rinse only" and it is about 15 minutes long and one fill of water. I did use it once to see what it would do a long time ago.

Post# 606629 , Reply# 7   6/27/2012 at 08:21 (4,292 days old) by countryguy (Astorville, ON, Canada)        

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Since I live alone, I only run the dishwasher every 2, 3 or 4 days depending on how much I've been cooking.  When I have a casserole dish that has baked on crud, but I'm not going to run the dishwasher on a full cycle that day, I use rinse & hold - it kind of acts like a soak cycle.

 

Gary


Post# 606636 , Reply# 8   6/27/2012 at 08:53 (4,292 days old) by Maytagbear (N.E. Ohio)        
Most of my dishwashers

have been portable/convertibles, so to me, "rinse and hold" has just struck me as being rather nonsensical--pushing the machine to the sink, running the cycle, pushing it back to storage, and then pushing it back to the sink. However, it can be very useful for a 3 or 4 person family, when two meals are eaten at home.


Instead of rinse and hold, I just run the longest, hottest cycle- seems to come out even that way.


Lawrence/Maytagbear


Post# 606637 , Reply# 9   6/27/2012 at 08:54 (4,292 days old) by PhilR (Quebec Canada)        

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I tried the RINSE & HOLD cycle on my 1974 Frigidaire Custom Deluxe dishwasher and I think the only thing the switch does is to stop the heating element from working.

The instructions say to advance the timer to rinse (so it does only one rinse) it can be also used for "PRE-WASH & HOLD", just by adding detergent in the dispenser #1 (which has no door).

It's possible to operate the dishwasher a full cycle on RINSE & HOLD but I'm guessing it's not recommended because the heater is off during the wash cycles too...



Post# 606655 , Reply# 10   6/27/2012 at 10:50 (4,292 days old) by PassatDoc (Orange County, California)        

Our 1961 Kitchen Aid KDS Superba DW had three cycles:

Rinse and Hold (white button-right)
Normal (green button-center)
Utility/Pots-Pans (yellow button-left)

(image courtesy of fan-0-quality's 5/2011 thread)

From ads I've seen on this site, KA offered two lower end models that did not have the three cycles, only the Superba had three cycles (and thus Rinse and Hold). I do not know if Rinse And Hold was offered prior to the debut of the Superba. We never used Utility cycle because my mom lost the owner manual and we didn't know what would happen if the button were pressed (World War 3??). From ads I've seen on this site, Utility was an intensive wash system followed by NO heated drying. Not exactly the same as Pots/Pans today, though Bosch's PowerScrubPlus does more or less the same thing and there is no heated drying (my Bosch has no heated drying on any cycle). The KA did not have a steel tub, it was porcelain, so the current system whereby water evaporates off dishes and utensils and condenses on the tub sides (after a high temp final rinse) did not exist then in the porcelain tub era.

As a family of four, we would usually fill the DW in a 24 hour period, but sometimes the DW was full before dinner and ran during dinner. After dinner, the DW was unloaded (the chore for my sister and me, starting from the age of six) and then loaded with the dinner dishes. Since we didn't fill the DW with the dishes from that meal, the DW would not be run until the next day, so we'd use Rinse and Hold. Our basic rule of thumb was: if the DW would be run later the same day, no Rinse and Hold. If DW was to be run the next day or later, then we'd use Rinse and Hold.

Note: all of the DWs I owned prior to my 2001 Bosch were POS and Rinse/Hold was imperative, otherwise dishes would not come clean if DW was not run daily. When I purchased the Bosch, the particular model (Integra Design, with door edge controls) had been introduced only the week before. THere were no floor models, and I had to order from a dealer catalog. The salesman made a mistake: there were TWO BOL models, both with PowerScrubPlus and Normal cycles, but the third cycle differed. One had Rinse and Hold, the other had Quick Wash. I "thought" I was ordering the DW with Rinse and Hold, but the model with Quick Wash was delivered. I called the dealer and said there was a mistake, they checked the specs and agreed that they didn't realize that there were two BOL models with one difference in the third cycle. He suggested I try the machine, and if I didn't like it, he would exchange it for the other BOL model.

Turns out I was better off with the Quick Wash. The Bosch cleans so well that there is no need for Rinse/Hold. I can have a week's collection of dishes and glasses and they still come out clean on Normal cycle. The poor performance of prior DWs had conditioned me to use Rinse/Hold on a daily basis if I didn't have a full DW. The Quick Wash cycle, now sold by many companies as a "Party" cycle, can wash lightly soiled dishes (say, if you have people over for coffee and cake) in half an hour. It can't handle dried-on or baked-on food, but is ok on light soil. Since the Bosch does such a great job on Normal cycle, Rinse/Hold is more or less obsolete.


Post# 606665 , Reply# 11   6/27/2012 at 11:41 (4,292 days old) by DADoES (TX, U.S. of A.)        

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We used Rinse/Hold at first on our KDI-17a, because having a dishwasher was a new experience and using the array of cycles as intended was necessary.  We learned soon enough to avoid it because Rinse/Hold caused more odor from standing/wet dirty dishes than if it was NOT used.

IIRC, the KDI-17 sequence was:
1 min half-fill (line purge)
1 min drain
2 mins fill with circulation
1 min circulation
2 mins pause (which is where the soak period would be on the Soak Cycle but the pulse-delay timer did not engage on Rinse/Hold)
1 min drain
Remainder of timer sequences ran out at normal time with no further washing/rinsing/drying action, or the timer could be advanced manually to Off.

I have not used rinse/hold on any of my dishwashers since that initial experience.


Post# 606690 , Reply# 12   6/27/2012 at 14:03 (4,292 days old) by jerrod6 (Southeastern Pennsylvania)        

Agree with Dadoes.  My Dw does have a rinse only cycle.  It is designed to rinse current dishes you have when you don't have enough for a full load.  My guess it that the thought was that you had breakfast and lunch, did the rinse/hold, then did the full cycle after dinner.  Of course that was 1960's thinking about typical family life.

 

I've tried the rinse only cycle(named Prewash on my machine because I have the language set to UK English) but found that while it does leave the dishes wet, it also leaves the inside of the machine smelly and slimy especially since I only run the DW every other day.  Beyond that without using rinse/hold the dishes get just as clean when I wash them so why waste 1.06 gallons of water doing this rinse/hold thing.

 

 


Post# 606761 , Reply# 13   6/27/2012 at 19:47 (4,292 days old) by Rolls_rapide (.)        
Instead of rinse and hold, I just run the longest, hottest c

Snap!

I found that "Rinse & Hold", or "Pre-rinse", simply causes a smelly stagnant soup to develop, with particulates sprayed everywhere. So I just load the machine as I go and when full, run the "Auto Superwash". Less hassle all round.


Post# 606805 , Reply# 14   6/28/2012 at 02:34 (4,291 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        
Have Never Bothered With "Rinse & Hold"

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Find even several day old dishes that have been sat sitting in the DW come clean with proper dosage of modern detergents. Not the STPP free stuff on the shelves today as one is still using old formula Cascade powder which has enough of the stuff to do the job.

Why on earth would anyone wish to spray a mixture of water and food oils/soils/goo around a dw then allow it to sit for several hours has always been beyond me. If something is that badly soiled and or one is worried about allowing it to sit for whatever period of time it takes to fill up the dw, go ahead and pre-rinse the thing in sink.


Post# 611298 , Reply# 15   7/20/2012 at 06:52 (4,269 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md)        
Rinse and Hold

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I also have seldom used the R&H cycle on my DWs for many of the a fore mentioned reasons.
1 Even if not rinsed the dishes come perfectly clean anyway when the full cycle is run.

2 Kitchenaid always had a terrible R&H cycle as it was just one quick rinse and as mentioned by others it made the whole machine smell worse in a days time if used.
My WP DW on the other hand does two full water changes for its R&H cycle and does such a good job that everyone in the household thinks the dishes in the machine are clean and they start using them, LOL.


Post# 611312 , Reply# 16   7/20/2012 at 08:25 (4,269 days old) by bajaespuma (Connecticut)        

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I'm still interested in your original question, who first came up with it and when? Was it even patent-able? 

 

Our TOL 1961 GE dishwasher didn't have it in its 4 cycle line-up and I remember first seeing it on my Aunt Grace's KDS-12 in the early sixties. Since my Mother was one of those who hand washed everything BEFORE putting it in the machine, she wouldn't have bothered. I don't use it that much except when I'm baking; I can throw all of the pieces, some of which aren't safe for long periods in the machine at high water temps and get everything acceptably clean. With two fills I can put a little detergent in and pretend I'm using my high-temp fast warewasher at work. I find it useful and I suspect people with families that fed everyone for breakfast, lunch and dinner and had a fairly consistent daily dishwasher run after all the daily dishes were in, would have used this feature.

 

You know me, the more buttons to push, the better.

 

 

 


Post# 611319 , Reply# 17   7/20/2012 at 09:45 (4,269 days old) by mrcleanjeans (milwaukee wi)        

The Utility-Utensil Cycle on the KD-14 series was a regular wash cycle,followed by a 5 minute heated dry cycle. Any crust left in the pots and pans,it was said,were at least softened so you could wipe the pots clean with a paper towel instead of hand scrubbing them. The 5 minute dry was just enough to dry the pots and pans without drying on the leftover soils on them.

Post# 611322 , Reply# 18   7/20/2012 at 10:10 (4,269 days old) by passatdoc (Orange County, California)        

Thanks for the explanation. I guess then that it was not a high powered "potscrubber" cycle as they exist today.

For reasons mentioned above (Mom misplaced the user guide) we never used Utility, only Normal cycle and---if there was not a full load to run after dinner---Rinse/Hold. If there wasn't room for pots and pans, they were washed in the sink. If there was room, they were prerinsed/scraped (but not washed) and Normal cycle got them clean. If something was really baked on, we didn't even try to put it in the DW and just washed by hand in the sink.

What I recall for our family of four was that we could fill the DW daily with just dishes/glasses/utensils and that there often wasn't room for pots and pans. On weekends, when we might not eat three meals at home (sports activitie for the kids, running errands and thus eating on the go like at a coffee shop), then there was more room for pots/pans because we didn't have three full meals worth of plates and glasses. This was still only the 1960s but my sister and I were pretty much "scheduled" all weekend: sports, cultural stuff, Boy Scouts/Girl Scouts, Sunday School, you name it. So compared to weekdays, we often were not home for three meals per day on weekends.


Post# 611353 , Reply# 19   7/20/2012 at 13:52 (4,269 days old) by joe_in_philly (Philadelphia, PA, USA)        

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I have noticed that many modern dishwashers don't have a rinse only cycle. I have a couple of theories as to why. :-)

I think that a rinsed load may cause a dishwasher to miscalculate the soil of the load, so it may use a shorter or cooler wash, resulting in tougher soils not being properly removed. I also think it is probably not necessary with today's longer wash cycles.

We rarely pre-rinse, yet even baked on foods that have sat days are removed with the regular wash cycle. While my dishwasher does have a rinse cycle, I can't remember the last time I used it. Perhaps it would come in handy for things that will smell if left unwashed (plates used for uncooked fish/chicken comes to mind), but with such things, I prefer to either rinse those particular items off in the sink, or run a cycle even though the dishwasher is not completely full. The idea that the germs have been distributed all over the dishwasher and now will have a wet environment to fester grosses me out.


Post# 611354 , Reply# 20   7/20/2012 at 13:53 (4,269 days old) by joe_in_philly (Philadelphia, PA, USA)        

This post has been removed by the member who posted it.



Post# 611362 , Reply# 21   7/20/2012 at 14:39 (4,269 days old) by franksdad (Greenville, South Carolina)        
My very first dishwasher

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was an avacado  1974 Whirlpool middle of the line built-in with the new fangled much talked about rinse and hold cycle they were advertising on the television!   I was 19 at the time, living at home with my parents,  and I wanted a dishwasher like all my friends Mamas had when I was in high school   Mama insisted she did not want or need a dishwasher but I told her it didn't matter she was getting one for Mother's Day - so she insisted she wanted one with the new rinse and hold cycle and the potscrubber cycle.   I honestly don't remember if we ever used this cycle or not.  Come to think of it, that 1974 Whirlpool did such a great job on regular cycle I think we only used the post and pans cycle one time just to check it out.  Years passed.  I moved out but I did not have a dishwasher for many years when I began housekeeping and when I married the first dishwasher my wife and I bought was a Kenmore Ultra Wash with R&H.  We've had several dishwashers with R&H since.  My wife can't stand anything on the cabinet so when the dishwasher ends it's cycle it is emptied and all dirty dishes from that point on are placed in the dishwasher.  After a few dirty cereal bowls, empty milk glasses, snack plates, etc. it gets kinda funky in the dishwasher.  That is when R&H comes to the rescue to rinse those foul odors and food residues away.  Could not imagine a dishwasher without R&H!   I have to say that the 2007 TOL Whirlpool Gold dishwasher we currently have can't hold a candle to that 1974 MOL Whirlpool.   


Post# 611411 , Reply# 22   7/21/2012 at 02:00 (4,268 days old) by washer111 ()        
Use of Rinse/Hold

We are also the kind who very rarely (if at all) use rinse/hold or rinse only on our DishDrawer.

I've found that the Normal or Heavy cycle are more than capable of washing off the knurr from our plates, cups and bowls. Come to think of it, Heavy uses the same pressure as Regular but with 10 minutes extra wash time and at around 15º-20º hotter than the Regular cycle.

When have we used Rinse-only? On one or two occasions we've used it to get rid of extra soils or bad stuff to cycle the dishwasher the next morning.

The other, well, thats been when I've tried bob-loading or when demonstrating the machine with a heavy load here on AW.org. Why? Well, I thought I'd run hot water @ the Kithcen tap, then run the Prewash to heat up the D/W's tub so that we'd "save energy" for the main cycle.
Considering I used an extra 10L or so to accomplish this, we probably ending up wasting Softened water, and thus the water softener regenerated sooner than it probably would've needed to. (wasting water + salt!)

On a side note, the Aussie version of the DD doesn't prewash anyway, so you wash in "Dirty" water. Most particulate matter is filtered though. By no means is our Dishwasher "lacking" in the performance department (it can move everyday stains in the 50º, Low Pressure, 90 minute Delicate cycle, and probably in the Eco version too, so we may start using this to help save some electricity!)


Post# 611425 , Reply# 23   7/21/2012 at 05:52 (4,268 days old) by alr2903 (TN)        

The new dishwashers use such a small amout of water, why bother with R&H?  We just add the detergent and wash what we have in the machine.  Leaving dirty dishes overnight "waiting" for a full load is a welcome mat for ants and roaches, especially in this awful summer heat. alr


Post# 611553 , Reply# 24   7/22/2012 at 10:02 (4,267 days old) by PassatDoc (Orange County, California)        

My previous two dishwashers were:

1. A BOL Hotpoint in an apartment 1982-88.

2. A MOL GE Potscrubber in my current home, which was built new in 1988, and the DW was supplied by the builder. I had this DW 1988-2001.

Neither machine could do a good job on loads that were several days old (i.e. took several days to a week to fill the DW), though the GE did a decent job on "fresh loads" if the potscrubber cycle was used. The GE had energy saver dry, which didn't work well with a plastic tub (water needs to evaporate off the dishes to a steel liner). In this case, I think "energy saver" meant no heated drying. Generally I'd have to open the door and just let the dishes air dry for a few hours before putting them away, like a large two-tier dish drying rack.

Both machines had Rinse/Hold, and I assume it was better to at least wet/rinse the dishes if you didn't have a full load, vs. letting the soil cake on.

With my current Bosch (2001) the two entry level Integra models had three cycles: one had Quick Wash, the other had Rinse/Hold. Because I placed an order only a few weeks after the models were introduced, the dealer made an error and delivered the model with Quick Wash rather than with Rinse/Hold. I called the dealer and they said to try the model I got, if I wasn't happy they would replace it with a Rinse/Hold model. What they knew, and I did not, was that the Bosch could get caked on soiled dishes clean, and no Rinse/Hold needed. Instead, the Quick Wash is way more useful for lightly soiled loads. I use it occasionally. In retrospect I realize I would have had no use for Rinse/Hold on this DW, though Rinse/Hold did play a useful role on the Hotpoint and GE.

Oddly enough, I stayed in NYC in May in a hotel that is leased condos, that is, owners of the apartments lease them as hotel space when they are not using their unit. I don't remember the model of DW but there was no R/H. I basically prepared breakfast only there, would have one or two plates and cups in the DW, and the housekeeper would run a full cycle anyway, every day. I think it was part of their cleaning protocol. It would have made more sense to just let the DW fill over 4-5 days and then run the DW, or at least use R/H if available.


Post# 611606 , Reply# 25   7/22/2012 at 18:36 (4,267 days old) by washer111 ()        
@PassatDoc

Do you recall what model # your GE dishwasher was?

I'm pretty sure they were supposed to have worked really well, judging by comments made by various other members of this forum. Even the BOL Canadian "rip-offs" were still pretty good (probably due to the fact they had 3 prewash/rinses then a heated wash, then 3 rinses....)


Post# 611624 , Reply# 26   7/22/2012 at 19:56 (4,267 days old) by Kenmoreguy64 (Charlotte, NC)        

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My parents had a 1987 GE Potscrubber 900 that did stellar service from 1987 to 2004. When the door spring broke, the machine was replaced. It was used daily to about four times per week for all 17 years. When my sister and I lived at home it may have even been more than once daily. I'd consider this machine a MOL GE. Similar traits to my two Potscrubber 1200s in some ways, different in others. We never had any complaints but dishwasher performance in some ways depends on water quality. A water softener has been in place since the late 1980s, so the 900 had soft water for most of its life.

Gordon


Post# 611716 , Reply# 27   7/23/2012 at 10:01 (4,266 days old) by PassatDoc (Orange County, California)        
@washer 111 and kenmoreguy111

The house was completed in January 1988, so my guess is that the DW was a 1987 model. The model number was either in the 500 or 600 range. I remember seeing GE models with higher numbers and more features in appliance stores. I don't have any surviving photos of it. There were several buttons, I think to select heating drying vs. energy saver drying. I believe there was a cycle dial and you set it for either Normal, Potscrubber, or Rinse/Hold. (Not sure here: I can't remember if the selection between Normal and Potscrubber cycles was made by buttons or by dial placement--I think it was by button and that there may have been four buttons altogether: Normal, Potscrubber, Heated Drying, Energy Saver dry). After setting the dial to the desired cycle, you moved the latch arm to locked position and it would start. If you could point me to a list of model numbers, I could probably identify it for you.

The DW had a power tower in lieu of a wash arm between the upper and lower racks, and there was no third wash arm on top of the tub. I know some GE's had the third arm because I saw them on display in stores.

The main issue for me was not cleaning ability, but the tendency of the pump to stick in our hard water. If the DW had not been used for several weeks, the pump would stick. I had to remove the kick plate and manually loosen/rotate the pump to free it so it would run. This problem began within two years of purchase. Then the pump began to leak and had to be replaced. The second pump to my knowledge did not stick, and there were no more leaks. However, it seems that perhaps the original pump was defective from the start, but I did not recognize the problem until two years, after warranty had expired. It was replaced in 2001 by a Bosch Integra which has never been serviced and gives excellent results. The racks are not very flexible in terms of loading, and the tines are spaced perhaps too widely apart, so as to limit capacity, but it does an excellent job of cleaning.

To save energy, I nearly always selected Energy Saver, but with the plastic tub, I'd have to open the DW and let everything air dry for a few hours before putting things away. Even then, I'd have to take a dish towel and blot dry the tops of mugs and glasses if there was an indent on the bottom. With the Bosch's steel interior and higher final rinse temps, the water condenses on the sides of the tub (evaporating off the plates/glasses), usually making it unnecessary to blot off any mugs or glasses.


Post# 612735 , Reply# 28   7/27/2012 at 10:17 (4,262 days old) by PassatDoc (Orange County, California)        
review re: Miele Quick Wash cycle

Yesterday I ran the DW on Quick Wash cycle. Due to a bizarre string of evening meetings/social events/jaunts out of town, I'd only eaten supper at home once in a week (very unusual for me). The result was I was running out of coffee mugs/glasses/breakfast plates, and the machine was 2/3 full. To fill the load, I tossed in the grates from my range (porcelain-coated and DW-safe per the manufacturer) and ran it on Quick Wash, since nothing was heavily soiled. Mostly toast crumbs and coffee stains. There were two bowls with dried-on oatmeal. I would never expect a thirty-minute Quick cycle to get those bowls clean, so I soaked in hot soapy water for ten minutes and scrubbed off most of the residue.

Load was ready in 33 minutes, at which point I opened the door to allow air drying. The final rinse on Quick cycle is down around 120 F, not 150-165 F as on the heavier cycles, and the hotter the rinse, the better the evaporation from utensils onto the walls (i.e. better drying)...and the drying is worst on Quick Wash, though most of the items were dry to touch (plastic was not). I'd never use it for a daily driver cycle, but Quick Wash was adequate for a lightly soiled load.

Bear in mind, my model is from 2001, I don't know how well (or poorly) the Quick cycle works on today's models.



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