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Thread Number: 42118
Neutral Drain Top Loaders - A Query |
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Post# 620167 8/25/2012 at 20:10 (4,255 days old) by Launderess  (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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Many of my vintage laundry manuals and things one has read elsewhere warned housewives and others doing laundry against (top loading) washing machines that drained water through the wash, what we would call neutral draining on modern machines). Their main gripe was that it would lead to resoiling of the wash as the dirty water was filtered through textiles on it's way out of the wash tub.
While early H-axis washers did exsist in both commercial and domestic settings, the most common for the latter would have been some sort of wringer or mangle to be used for extraction, whilst the former had large spin dryers. Using a wringer means the laundry is lifted up and out of the dirty water and the filty water removed (it goes back into the tub) taking with it much of the gunk. Bring this up because last week hauled out the small Whirlpool to do a bit of washing and the neutral draining of that machine just *bugs* me. As it tis one always does two deep rinses but the idea of wash water being pulled down through what should be "clean" laundry just isn't my cup of tea. From what one has read here in the group there were older top loaders that started to spin nearly soon as the water began to drain. This shoved soapy/dirty water out of the tub instead of through the wash, or no? | ||
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| Post# 620170 , Reply# 1 8/25/2012 at 20:17 (4,255 days old) by qsd-dan (West) | ||
Uh-Oh | ||
| Post# 620175 , Reply# 2 8/25/2012 at 20:31 (4,255 days old) by StrongEnough78 (California) | ||
Well all I can say is I have never had an issue with my clothes getting resoiled when using a neutral drain washer. But when wash water is dirty, isn't it ALL dirty? I wouldn't think that the water below the surface is completely clean. I mean, it's sitting in dirty water anyway to which the dirty water gets pulled through anyway if by neutral drain or spin drain.
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| Post# 620188 , Reply# 3 8/25/2012 at 21:05 (4,255 days old) by mickeyd (Hamburg NY) | ||
Tis all moot now anyway--they all neutral drain now, except  Given that the filthy laundry is saved for last, most of the washing liquors are relatively clean. One always shudders when our esteemed Launderess refers to lifting the clothes from the tub to the wringer, leaving the filthy water behind. One notices that her esteemed self does this regularly, i.e. the filthy water reference. Only very dirty work clothes from every sort of dirty work, poopy nappies, and manly unmentionables leave the water filthy.
So can we all at least agree that whatever is drained, spun, or spin-drained away isn't all that nasty to begin with, most of the time ?
Then, no matter how the water leaves the machine, it passes through the clothes. Meditate on this. The Maytags have an outer tub and while the washer is spinning the water out it must pass through the clothes; in WP/KM's, same deal, close inner tub, only nothing is spinning; in solid tubs, the water is hurled through openings around the tub, but alas it must of course pass through the load of laundry.
It always seemed to me that the condemnation of neutral draining machines was an advertising gimmick, an invented sales pitch.
It is also worth mentioning, that all top-loaders are now perforated, and most of them neutral drain. Now that's a lot of filthy water passing laundry gas, LOL.
On a personal note. Since the demise of my WP Convertible, one has keenly envied your mint Harvest Gold version, so perfectly maintained. If you would like to sell it to me for Winter kitchen use, I would love to buy it. Would also pay a fee for all your shipping expertise, and would be at your service in perpetuity. Then you'd have premium space for something else. | ||
| Post# 620196 , Reply# 5 8/25/2012 at 21:37 (4,255 days old) by qsd-dan (West) | ||
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The Maytags have an outer tub and while the washer is spinning the water out it must pass through the clothes
My concern it the top layer of water where oils and greases float and accumulate. This top layer of water usually goes directly out to the outer tub without touching the clothes at the beginning of a spin. What I like most about spin drains is that it plasters the clothes evenly up against the entire width of the tub. This extracts water better from clothes and provides MUCH better extraction of water/soap/nasty crap from the clothes during a spin spray rinse. With a neutral drain, the clothes bunch up at the bottom of the tub and won't be rinsed out nearly as well during a spin spray rinse. | ||
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Post# 620197 , Reply# 6 8/25/2012 at 21:42 (4,255 days old) by DADoES (TX, U.S. of A.) |
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 For all the nearly 50 years that my clothes have been run through a belt-drive Whirlpool, then a neutral-drain, direct-drive KitchenAid, then two neutral-drain Fisher & Paykel machines, then a Calypso that literally "filters" all the water through the clothes throughout the entire cycle ... I've never had an issue with smutz left behind. | ||
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Post# 620198 , Reply# 7 8/25/2012 at 21:51 (4,255 days old) by akronman (Akron/Cleveland Ohio) |
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No difference to me I have WP's and KM's with neutral drain, and Filter Flo's, Maytag, 1-18, and Norge with spin drain. The spinning ones send lots of dirty water up around the top rim that then sprays dirtily back through the clothes at it ramps up and the pump eventually catches up with all that water in the tub. I just can't see that being any different than a neutral drain, not a bit. Any washer will occasionally have a very bad load that needs a second rinse. Maytags always do, the agitation time on rinse is too darn quick. Also, old belt drive WP/KM go immediately from agitate to neutral drain, no waiting, the water is still pretty decently mixed, whereas the spin ones always have that 30 to 50 second pause, allowing dirt to settle on the clothes. For the life of me, I cannot tell the difference in draining operations. If you used enough detergent and have an operating filter, my laundry can't tell the differrence at all. | ||
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Post# 620208 , Reply# 9 8/25/2012 at 22:21 (4,255 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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@MickeyD
You know I love you more than my luggage so we can always have a healthy debate. Long as in the end you agree with my view things are fine! *LOL* You see as with all good friendships it is a matter of give and take. I give my friends advice and they take it. *LOL*
Regarding the WP portable, don't know how "perfectly maintained" it is. Rarely use the thing and when one does run a quick "rinse" to clear out any detergent/FS residue in the pump area, lower the drain hose into a pail to get out as much excess water as possible, the roll the thing back into it's spot. The lint filter is cleaned, tub and inside the lid wiped down with paper towels, then the lid left open for a day or two for the thing to air dry. Once all that is done lid is closed, a tablecloth cover goes over and the washer sits as a "table" once again until called for use. Maybe soon will consider moving the unit on, so will keep you in mind if you like. Am really starting to consider another Miele or if one could find an older Asko, Bosch or Wascator front loader to take some of the work off the Miele W1070. Modern FLer's leave me feeling cold, even the Miele W3XXX series. | ||
| Post# 620211 , Reply# 10 8/25/2012 at 22:47 (4,255 days old) by aldspinboy (Philadelphia, Pa) | ||
Ahh Been away for awhile lol.
I never had dirty laundry out of a washer period. Yes the scum could sit on the top but according to whirlpool water goes out the holes and down the drian. That stuff thats left is rinsed off at a low pile distrabution. And makes great art in the basket and that is there style. I like them both Spin drain and neutral draining. The tags and GE..does have a spin wash quility and makes the clothes rise higher. Giving a well distabution ...but I cant say any of them gives a better spin. What 560 Whirlpool Maytags 620..RPM's I have to wait 45 mins or longer in the dryer even the last orbital drives there is lots of moister left. Dan I do love Maytags. But today washing in vintage washers I will spin them in my fronts. For more water extaction. Vintage & Modern the way I wash. But its funny Maytag went with neutral draing as well as GE in there line up. In the later years. I dont think its a real huge problem in ether I just liked them both when they where around. Now It seems like the Kenmore it goes right to wash and then drain fast. No pause...so one can argue for the top of the clothes but it will be sprayed off. Maytags and GE Sits claming that the soil is setteling.. now is that going thru the clothes as well and then stir up some exsiting soil as it's spin draining.. I do agree with Dan that it can give better distrbution. But since Im with my washer all the time I have no problems I am a baby sitter. And love the whole process when I am washing. Greg said once not long ago ...We like to play in water. This post was last edited 08/25/2012 at 23:19 | ||
| Post# 620214 , Reply# 11 8/25/2012 at 22:59 (4,255 days old) by aldspinboy (Philadelphia, Pa) | ||
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| Post# 620266 , Reply# 12 8/26/2012 at 01:02 (4,255 days old) by stan (Napa CA) | ||
Darrin | ||
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Post# 620312 , Reply# 14 8/26/2012 at 10:04 (4,254 days old) by gansky1 (Omaha, The Home of the TV Dinner!) |
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| Post# 620313 , Reply# 15 8/26/2012 at 10:06 (4,254 days old) by rickr (.) | ||
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Post# 620316 , Reply# 16 8/26/2012 at 10:11 (4,254 days old) by foraloysius (Leeuwarden, Friesland, the Netherlands) |
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"The reason why should be obvious." | ||
| Post# 620320 , Reply# 17 8/26/2012 at 10:32 (4,254 days old) by DirectDriveDave () | ||
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No differences here. Between the most neutral drain machines I have used (WP/KM), and the most spin drain machines I have used (MT & SQ) I always have the same results, nice and clean with nothing left on it. | ||
| Post# 620321 , Reply# 18 8/26/2012 at 10:32 (4,254 days old) by rickr (.) | ||
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Sure! Unless you have a solid tub get rid of the water, over the top and into the outer tub, away from the clothes, all a spin drain does is stir the dirty water up. Then, as a perf tub spins, it spin drains the stirred up dirty water out through the clothes. I have three solid tub machines, and four perf tub machines, including two with neutral drain. If one observes, and thinks about it, it should become easy to understand why there is no advantage to a spin drain on a perf tub machine.
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Post# 620327 , Reply# 20 8/26/2012 at 10:49 (4,254 days old) by akronman (Akron/Cleveland Ohio) |
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Pause before spin I never thought that pause was built in for any aspect of cleanliness or rinsing, I thought it was simply mechanically needed on a reversing motor, one click of the timer pause between motor turning one way and then the other. If the marketing folks want to claim it lets solids settle, fine, but it's just for electro/mech purposes of reversing the motor. | ||
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Post# 620328 , Reply# 21 8/26/2012 at 10:50 (4,254 days old) by foraloysius (Leeuwarden, Friesland, the Netherlands) |
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I beg to differ then
Assuming that scum is floating on top of the water, with a neutral drain it sinks onto the clothes. With a spin drain, it goes through the holes in the tub. The clothes stay under water during the spin drain as you can see in the movie with the Maytag. So the floating dirt is not being spun through the clothes.
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Post# 620335 , Reply# 23 8/26/2012 at 11:16 (4,254 days old) by foraloysius (Leeuwarden, Friesland, the Netherlands) |
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Considering that there is dirt and dirt, I would think that dirt that is heavy, like sand, would reach the bottom long before the end of the wash. Sand is probably waiting there to be pumped out long before the pause.
If you have a bucket of water that you used for cleaning something, there is always a lot of dirt on the bottom. I guess neutral drain or spin drain doesn't make much of a difference. Then there is the dirt that was dissolved by the detergent and perhaps some that has the same specific gravity. I guess it doesn't make much of a difference either. Most of it will be drained through the clothes either way since it is all through the wash water. But looking again at those videos here, made me realise there is also dirt that is lighter than water. I guess a neutral drain lets that dirt sit on top of the laundry, while a spin drain might spin that out over the laundry. | ||
| Post# 620336 , Reply# 24 8/26/2012 at 11:27 (4,254 days old) by bwoods () | ||
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Very heavy particles, like sand and grit, will be disturbed. and help in temporary suspension, by agitation and the movement of the clothes, and water currents. When water velocity drops to zero during the pause, they quiet down and settle out. | ||
| Post# 620337 , Reply# 25 8/26/2012 at 11:32 (4,254 days old) by mrb627 (Buford, GA) | ||
Modern ND Machines | ||
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Post# 620364 , Reply# 26 8/26/2012 at 13:15 (4,254 days old) by Jetcone (Schenectady-Home of Calrods,Monitor Tops,Toroid Transformers) |
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Barry -
from doctrine: your theory about sand held in suspension doesn't hold water I'm afraid. Frigidiare states in their 1-18 service manual for the early S & T models that the holes in the tub at the bottom are placed so ( around the jet cone ) that they will allow all the solids -sand dirt etc to actually "drop out" at the moment the JetCone is at its top dead center or its bottom dead center. At both points F says the water in the tub being incompressible is completely paused with the JetCone and this allows the sand to drop out immediately.
Then the swooshing of the jetcone creates a wall of water currrent that brushes the sand across the holes in the tub, the bottom of the tub is designed for this , and the sand falls down the holes to the outer tub. Ofcourse as we all know, F then moved the holes around 1972-3 to the outer bottom so all the sand trapped at the bottom would be swooshed out by the spin drain. Wether there is any truth to this I can't say. I have never observed the bottom of a 1-18 tub in full action!! Gansky1 love your reveal there!! However -qsd-dan is correct Launderess has opened a nice can of worms for a Sunday afternoon! | ||
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Post# 620381 , Reply# 28 8/26/2012 at 14:24 (4,254 days old) by Yogitunes (New Jersey) |
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WOW....you guys are going in and on about this.....and it appears simple, as for a solid tub, outside of sediment falling to the bottom and ejected, overflo rinsing allows the floating scum to do just tha, float over the edge to the outter tub, and away from the laundry.....
perforated tubs, makes no difference, spin or neutral, ALL strain the water thru the clothes, one way or another.....nuff said..... the only difference a neutral drain can cause, is soap/scum/grease remains at the top of the outter tub/splash guard during drain, and never gets flushed away.....potential for a smelly disgusting washer.....hats not to say that a spin drain doesn't pick up speed enough the throw the water from the outter tub back over ones laundry...... BUT THE BOTTOM LINE.....is that you are using proper washing techniques.....water temp and a good detergent...THAT should keep all soil suspended in the wash water....there should not be a problem for anyone, or any machine!....PERIOD | ||
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Post# 620449 , Reply# 30 8/26/2012 at 19:09 (4,254 days old) by Jetcone (Schenectady-Home of Calrods,Monitor Tops,Toroid Transformers) |
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Xlent Barry | ||
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Post# 620640 , Reply# 33 8/27/2012 at 13:50 (4,253 days old) by Jetcone (Schenectady-Home of Calrods,Monitor Tops,Toroid Transformers) |
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1956 GE Filter Flo | ||
| Post# 621422 , Reply# 35 8/30/2012 at 21:03 (4,250 days old) by ingliscanada () | ||
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I also don't believe that a neutral drain is a bad thing, only because WP were successful and popular washers for 50-plus years, and they always had neutral drain. Gary | ||
| Post# 621474 , Reply# 36 8/31/2012 at 01:59 (4,249 days old) by MikeKLondon (London) | ||
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Balance It looks to me that a machine with a spin drain balances the load better ? | ||
| Post# 621479 , Reply# 37 8/31/2012 at 03:29 (4,249 days old) by qsd-dan (West) | ||
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It looks to me that a machine with a spin drain balances the
Not really.
Good balancing has more to go with the suspension design than spin/neutral drains. Actually, if one were to use the same identical suspension setup (remember, we're dealing with theory here), a neutral drain would probably balance a bit better because the clothes are clumped and spun at the bottom of the tub. Dealing with clumped clothing in higher portions of the tub wreak more havoc on the suspensions of top the loaders, due to physics. Maytag used a good suspension design by 1966. The older design wasn't horrible, but it wasn't great either. GE Filter Flo's......well, not as good, and they lacked an out of balance switch, so they'd literally bash themselves to smithereens if a badly out of balance situation occurred. My 1963 Frigidaire WCI-63 that I use to have would bash the inner tub into the outer tub once out of every 4 spins while ramping up to speed. Not a good suspension design there either, IMO. | ||
| Post# 621559 , Reply# 38 8/31/2012 at 09:53 (4,249 days old) by beekeyknee (Columbia, MO) | ||
My Goodness, What A Thread.
Here is my take on the whole thing. In the 80's I used to have an old 60's Speed Queen set (solid tub of course) and I believe SQ and Frigidaire (and some others) had a good idea with the overflow rinse. It seemed to work a little better on the SQ's because the fins on the agitator seemed to push the suds toward the o/f better than the chaser ring. Can't say that for sure because I didn't ever have one, but from what I've read on here over the years, SQ seemed to do a better job of pushing away the suds.
When I had my SQ, by the time the spin started all the suds were gone and the water was clear, but that was before I had a w/s, which would make a difference in the amount of suds; always does. One uses less soap in soft water. As far as sand, we didn't work on a farm. The most we did was work in the yard; mostly mowing. By the end of the cycle the clothes were very clean and soap free, as far as we could tell. Very smooth and soft and not much smell at all. We had a gay girl living with us at the time and sometimes she would come in very dirty. Her clothes always came out clean too. That SQ didn't have a very big capacity, but sometimes I really miss it. It was such a cool machine. What did it in was when the solenoid would bang up to engage the drive block, the block would slip in and out and the machine would have intermittent agitation. Unfortunately I didn't try to fix the problem and just threw out the machine, which I really regret now. I had a business to run and other things on my mind and I thought there would be other machines out there to purchase that would be just a good. I was in for a big disappointment. In my current Maytag experiences, the results are about the same, except if I put too much soap in the wash the rinsing isn't as good, as we have soft water now. Launderess is correct that rinsing seems better in harder water, but according to tests done on this site by other members, that can be deceiving. The hard water seems like it's rinsing better because it suppresses sudsing action, but the suds may still be there. Even in the sink when I try to rinse dish liquid out of the dish cloth and down the drain, it takes much longer to rinse the suds away. In hard water I think it may still be there but doesn't show itself. I don't know how else to justify this phenomenon. Anyway, this summer when our w/h was a complete disaster, I had purchased and 80's BOL Maytag to steal the trans and agitator out of for a rebuild of an older series 0. Since It was on the patio and I had hoses for hot and cold water, I manually filled the machine and washed outside. I felt like a woman on wash day 50 years ago. When it came time for the spray rinse I would turn the cold water hose up on full blast and spray the clothes for nearly the whole spin cycle. By the time it was over the water coming out of the drain hose was completely clear. If the Maytag would spray a large volume of water for the whole wash spin, I believe the results would be better. But this might run up a water bill quite a bit. It certainly gave good results. Back to the solid tub machines. I have never had a problem with them and I was always please with the results. I was always amazed at how dry the clothes would come out with no perforations in the tub and sand was never a problem for us. I guess it depends on ones living situations. | ||
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