Thread Number: 42482
To pre-rinse dishes or not to pre-rinse...
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Post# 624948   9/14/2012 at 15:46 (4,213 days old) by joefuss1984 (Little Rock, AR)        

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Here is the official answer from Bosch!



CLICK HERE TO GO TO joefuss1984's LINK




Post# 624949 , Reply# 1   9/14/2012 at 15:47 (4,213 days old) by joefuss1984 (Little Rock, AR)        
whoopsy!

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Post# 624964 , Reply# 2   9/14/2012 at 16:37 (4,213 days old) by logixx (Germany)        
No leather pants?! Oh nein!

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Well, at least he’s got that 'German dude trying to speak English' accent down. Not sure if I find this funny or embarrassing. Cultural stereotypes aside, Hans, no, Manfred is right, of course. I just bought a Bosch dishwasher that draws just .6 gal per fill yet, residual water in cups is always clear. With out pre-rinsing.

Isch liebe meine Bosch dischwascher.


Post# 625029 , Reply# 3   9/14/2012 at 21:27 (4,213 days old) by Maytagbear (N.E. Ohio)        
There's a few things I'd LIKE

to Ask Manfred, but unfortunately, not many of them are about appliances.


Woooooooooof! Just what I LIKE!! Pity Bosch doesn't offer a portable dishwasher (at least as of the last time I looked....)



Lawrence/Maytagbear


Post# 625076 , Reply# 4   9/15/2012 at 04:09 (4,213 days old) by donprohel (I live in Munich - Germany, but I am Italian)        
Manfred must be a bit confused...

"If the enzymes in the detergent don't have food particles to feed on, they will eat away at your dishes and make them dull and ugly."

Enzymes digesting dishes? What sort of enzymes does Manfred have in his detergent? Maybe he smoked those enzymes...


Post# 625084 , Reply# 5   9/15/2012 at 06:12 (4,213 days old) by Frigilux (The Minnesota Prairie)        

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I don't buy the "enzymes will eat away at your dishes" explanation, either. The longest wash is the second, main wash which has detergent in it. Most of the surface soils have been flushed away by the pre-rinse or pre-wash.

Post# 625157 , Reply# 6   9/15/2012 at 11:20 (4,212 days old) by jerrod6 (Southeastern Pennsylvania)        

The enzymes combined with hot water may damage your glasses.  On my DW the prewash lasts between 8(for small loads) to 13(for normal or large loads) minutes and while it knocks the big stuff off, the small stuck on fine stuff will still be on the dishes. 

 

In general when I use a cycle that is going to heat the water to 170F combined with detgerent, I will wash the glasses separately in the quick cycle which uses a way lower temperature for the wash.


Post# 625180 , Reply# 7   9/15/2012 at 13:26 (4,212 days old) by donprohel (I live in Munich - Germany, but I am Italian)        
Enzymes and glass

jerrod6: "The enzymes combined with hot water may damage your glasses".

I am not sure at all that enzymes can damage glass.

If I remember correctly, what damages glass in a dishwasher is the so-called "glass corrosion" caused by too soft hot water in the last rinse (which is sometimes even hotter than the main wash)



Post# 625188 , Reply# 8   9/15/2012 at 14:20 (4,212 days old) by Maytagbear (N.E. Ohio)        
Am I the only one

Who thinks Manfred is ein heiss papa?


Lawrence/Maytagbear


Post# 625206 , Reply# 9   9/15/2012 at 16:36 (4,212 days old) by jerrod6 (Southeastern Pennsylvania)        

I dunno I thought it was hot water combined with detergent that caused glass etching.  Reason I am thinking this is that in my Miele Dw with water softener it will mix hard water with soft water during the wash phase in programs where the wash  temp could go over 131F.  Of course it might also do that in the rinses too.

 

 So in the automatic cycle(Sensor), pots and pans, cheese, starch, china crystal.... all of these get mixed water,  and all of these except china crystal(113F)  can be over 131, but energy save(or economy) around 121F and normal about 118F,  get no mix of water. 

 

When I use pots and pans, cheese, or starch I usually omit any type of glasses because these programs have a set temp of 170F during the wash.

 

One other thing I noticed is that I don't remember  having glass etching problems until enzymes where introduced into DW detergents.  My parents had a 1971 KA Superba and it was using hot water heated by our heating system which kept the water at 180F in order to heat the house.   Never an etched glass.......UNTIL detergents with enzymes where introduced.


Post# 625315 , Reply# 10   9/16/2012 at 05:02 (4,212 days old) by Logixx (Germany)        

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When washing glasses in the dishwasher, it is important to select a fast and cool cycle. Too much detergent, long exposure to water and chemicals, too soft water (I think 4 gpg is best says Miele), drastic changes in temp... Many things can cause etching. That being said, I have washed expensive glasses on the 175F cycle without a problem, while cheap ones etch...

Alex


Post# 625500 , Reply# 11   9/16/2012 at 20:05 (4,211 days old) by mayguy (Minnesota)        

I don't pre-rinse, and my glasses looks like new, where someone else I know who pretty much pre-wash before putting them into the DW, and they are all etched up big time on the glasses.



Post# 625553 , Reply# 12   9/16/2012 at 23:54 (4,211 days old) by volsboy1 (East Tenn Smoky mountains )        

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From the Patents I have read which is a lot I know that food activates enzyme detergents at certain temps and it does say that it can damage things if there is nothing in there for the enzyme to attack..I don't even scrape let alone rinse I shake it the sink if that and in

it goes.... I have no problems my L.G. cleans great


Post# 625564 , Reply# 13   9/17/2012 at 02:24 (4,211 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        
How Long Have I Said That? *LOL*

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If DW detergents do not find something to attack in dishwater/on dishes they will go to work on some of the machine's interior parts. The caustic chemicals and or enzymes *need* foods, oils, fats, grease, etc to keep themselves busy and in some cases alter themselves into less dangerous compounds.

Washing soda (sodium carbonate) is a large part of most powdered DW detergents. When it comes into contact with fats/oils it makes a type of soap. Without those oils you've got all that washing soda flinging around with nothing to keep it in check. So it will find something such as dish, glass surfaces or whatever.

There is no sane reason to pre-rinse dishes going into an automatic dishwasher today. *Maybe* pre-soak or scrub very badly burnt up pots and pans if one isn't going run that cycle, but otherwise scrape, load and let the machine get on.


Post# 625578 , Reply# 14   9/17/2012 at 05:18 (4,211 days old) by washer111 ()        
Too Right Launderess!

Pre-Rinsing Causes Glasses/Dishes to Etch:

Fair Dinkum! OR:

 

No Shit Sherlock (Sorry for the use of a profanity!)

 

Launderess, you have advocated the whole no-prerinsing to avoid etching thing for at least as long as I've been a member. Who here really does pre-rinse without knowing the effects?


Post# 625594 , Reply# 15   9/17/2012 at 08:07 (4,211 days old) by mrx ()        

It depends on how good your dishwasher's filter design is!

In the United States, the traditional approach to dealing with scraps of food in dishwasher was to include a grinder. This resulted in a reasonable outcome, but it could also result in ground food being deposited back on your dishes and also food particles pounding the dishes which can cause glass damage as it's almost like sandblasting, especially if something like ground popcorn kernels or seeds get into the water.

The European approach (at least on well-designed machines) is different. You have a coarse filter and a self-cleaning cone filter.

The usual design (like Bosch/Siemens/Electrolux/AEG etc) has a tube-shaped multi-layer filter with a coarse grill at the top.

Large items of food will sit on the top of the filter and shouldn't block it.
Smaller items (like say for example a pea, a bit of salad, or piece of pasta) will get sucked down into the tubular filter. This is usually two layered with a very fine filter at the outer edge.

The wash pump sucks water horizontally from the sides of the filter forcing the water through all the layers. So, water recirculating in the dishwasher is kept relatively free of particles of food.

The drain pump is connected to the bottom of the filter. When the machine empties, water is sucked downwards, and fine particles are washed out of the filter meshes and sucked down the drain.

The drain pump can comfortably pump away anything that is small enough to pass through the coarse filters.

Typically, all you should need to do is remove any items sitting on top of the filter at the bottom of the machine and clean the filter out once in a while (not every wash!!)
Overall, unless you're just putting in dishes with a whole meal still on them, you shouldn't have that much filter-maintenance to worry about.



Post# 625597 , Reply# 16   9/17/2012 at 08:10 (4,211 days old) by mrx ()        

Explains how to clean the filters

CLICK HERE TO GO TO mrx's LINK


Post# 625629 , Reply# 17   9/17/2012 at 11:11 (4,210 days old) by mrboilwash (Munich,Germany)        

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Living on my own I have to pre rinse sometimes, because I don`t want to have smelly dishes sitting for 2-3 days in the DW !

No more problems with etching in years. I use a little less salt than needed for my water conditions and all in one tabs of good quality.

I remember back in the 1990s when chlorinated detergents were still on the maket here, I had much more problems with etched glasses and even the enameled pots had a nasty rough surface.

Didn`t chlorinated detergents contain the even more caustic water glass instead of washing soda?
I`m surprised Manfred blames the enzymes I always thought it`s the caustics ?!?





Post# 625676 , Reply# 18   9/17/2012 at 14:30 (4,210 days old) by jerrod6 (Southeastern Pennsylvania)        

Problem might be today's world economy and the proliferation of cheaply constructed glass.  I had glasses from the Crate and Barrel store that etched like crazy within 6 months.   Thing is that they were washed in the same cycles along with other glasses that I have had for 15 years..... and no etching on them, and they are still being used with no etching. 

 

Now I just take precaution and don't include glasses in any cycle that it going to get to 170F degrees in the wash. 

 

The one glass I do rinse off and scrape with my fingers under running water  is the one that has been used to consume fiber supplements because the fiber gets into the machine, mixes with hot water and then turns into a thick slime that covers the filter and the drain pump is not strong enough to deal with it.   Wash pump can handle it,  drain pump no.


Post# 625694 , Reply# 19   9/17/2012 at 15:28 (4,210 days old) by washer111 ()        
@mrx

Interesting description of the filter. 

 

I know for a FACT that a DishDrawer CAN be used without the Drain Filter (effectively ceasing the filter plate's functionalility). Its actually amazing what a plastic impeller can do, although, it looks pretty serious. Most nasties were gobbled up, so there was no issue there. I did notice an extreme build up in the corners, until the Rinse-Aid dispensed, then everything just sat in the water. Using the Heavy Cycle, or another cycle with 3 Rinses (Delicates) was practical. 

 

We haven't experienced etching, and I use the Heavy cycle quite often now, to sanitise our dishes (and because there are 3 post-wash rinses! Maybe similar to "Cool-Down," or to get rid of the extra detergent)


Post# 625848 , Reply# 20   9/18/2012 at 07:03 (4,210 days old) by whirlcool (Just North Of Houston, Texas)        

I had glasses from the Crate and Barrel store that etched like crazy within 6 months.

We had the same thing happen to us with some drink glasses bought at C&B. They only lasted about 2 years before they went opaque. And those glasses weren't cheap either.


Post# 625963 , Reply# 21   9/18/2012 at 17:15 (4,209 days old) by jerrod6 (Southeastern Pennsylvania)        
3 post rinses? Where can I find this in the USA

Any new DW washer in the USA have 3 full after rinses?  My Miele can do this if the soil sensor detects excess soil or suds in the first after rinse but it was made in 2004 and sold to the USA in 2006.  Anyone know of a DW sold in the USA that will do three full after rinses?  If so tell me,  I might want to buy it and stash it away for future use.


Post# 625980 , Reply# 22   9/18/2012 at 18:25 (4,209 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        
Glassware Etching In Dishwasher

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Post# 625981 , Reply# 23   9/18/2012 at 18:28 (4,209 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        
And Furthermore

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Post# 625988 , Reply# 24   9/18/2012 at 19:27 (4,209 days old) by DirectDriveDave ()        

I have never had a problem with etched glassware.

Probably the only thing that I have done that doesn't go with the above article is I use heated drying and the incoming water temperature is 120. But this dishwasher is from 2002 so I have no idea if it heats it any further (Normal Wash cycle)


Post# 626046 , Reply# 25   9/19/2012 at 01:46 (4,209 days old) by washer111 ()        
@jerrod6

One word: DishDrawer.

 

I believe the newer models actually post these "secret" rinses, so you really known which cycle is which. 


Post# 1057827 , Reply# 26   1/16/2020 at 19:39 (1,533 days old) by GELaundry4ever (Nacogdoches, TX, USA)        
don't!

Don't prerinse anything! I recommend Cascade everything! I have been using Cascade since September 5, 2007 and I never prerinsed from then on when I started using it! It was Cascade and Dawn 2 in 1 action packs!

Post# 1057893 , Reply# 27   1/17/2020 at 10:49 (1,532 days old) by vacerator (Macomb, Michigan)        
dishwahers used to have a

pre-rinse cycle, or "rinse and hold", for when you didn't have a full load, and didn't want to wash them yet. I pre-rinse for the same reason.

Post# 1057902 , Reply# 28   1/17/2020 at 12:21 (1,532 days old) by Iheartmaytag (Wichita, Kansas)        

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Well since this thread is almost seven  years old, to prevent discussion into perpetuity I will only state.  Pre-wash?  Why?  I have a dog, sometimes they are so clean I don't even bother putting them in the dishwasher.

 


Post# 1057903 , Reply# 29   1/17/2020 at 12:51 (1,532 days old) by DADoES (TX, U.S. of A.)        

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I haven't used Rinse Hold since the late 1970s.  Found it causes more odor due to residual dirty water left in the sump and on the dishware.


Post# 1057906 , Reply# 30   1/17/2020 at 13:22 (1,532 days old) by IowaBear (Cedar Rapids, IA)        

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I'm guilty of pre-rinsing because I only run my dishwasher about once-a-week.

 

Except for the occasional spider or centipede my home is blissfully pest-free and that's how I like it.  I may be excessively paranoid but "better safe than sorry" is my policy when it comes to bugs.


Post# 1058725 , Reply# 31   1/24/2020 at 23:11 (1,525 days old) by Ultralux88 (Denver)        

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I definitely never rinse anything, the dishwasher was made to wash all of this off!

Post# 1058737 , Reply# 32   1/25/2020 at 00:34 (1,525 days old) by tolivac (greenville nc)        

When I had a dishwasher-had NO choice-had to rinse the food off the dishes-or like the scene in Creepshow--Roaches "cleaning" the dishes for me!Used to run it a few times per week.

Post# 1058738 , Reply# 33   1/25/2020 at 00:41 (1,525 days old) by Awooff (Peoria, Illinois)        
Glass etching

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Ive had issues with etching years ago when detergents were stronger but found using less detergent stopped this. Scraper, non-rinser here and soft water im sure didnt help either.

Step mom was a pre-washer with soap and the whole bit. She would rinse, wash and sometimes rinse again before placing in the dishwasher. -the dishwasher bottom rack is almost completly rusted through from this practice. -the detergents having nothing to work on but the machine parts. All her glasses were etched with that familiar rainbow hue on them..


Post# 1058822 , Reply# 34   1/26/2020 at 01:15 (1,524 days old) by DaveAMKrayoGuy (Oak Park, MI)        

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If you have any good dishwasher, then "DON'T!"...



-- Dave


Post# 1058843 , Reply# 35   1/26/2020 at 08:01 (1,524 days old) by Turbowash (USA)        

I own Bosh dishwasher and never rinse dishes before loading it. I just scrape food leftovers. But I see my glasses have discoloration.

Post# 1058857 , Reply# 36   1/26/2020 at 13:08 (1,523 days old) by ozzie908 (Lincoln UK)        
Reply 25 @washer111

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I wish I had kept my dish drawer it made life so much easier and I believe there is a way to fix it in when you have Quartz work surfaces?
Its the only dishwasher to be as good as the Miele I use now.


Post# 1180934 , Reply# 37   5/19/2023 at 06:32 (315 days old) by GELaundry4ever (Nacogdoches, TX, USA)        
prerinsing

QUIT! You'll ruin your racks!

Post# 1180938 , Reply# 38   5/19/2023 at 09:42 (314 days old) by wayupnorth (On a lake between Bangor and Bar Harbor, Maine)        

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I will not quit pre rinsing. My water is very hard and my dishes come out fine after they are just run under the faucet. My 28 year old Whirlpool's racks are still fine too.

Post# 1180939 , Reply# 39   5/19/2023 at 10:38 (314 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md)        
Pre-rinsing dishes because of hard water

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Many food, soils, including sugars and acids actually will improve the performance in hard water.

But it’s a free world if you have all that time to waste rinsing dishes and you want to ruin your Plumbing and your dishwasher and your dishes go for it.

We have some customers that have two identical dishwashers, and we’ve been able to prove by putting in identical loads, one rinsed and one not that the dishes actually come out cleaner when they went in dirtier.




John


Post# 1180944 , Reply# 40   5/19/2023 at 12:19 (314 days old) by Awooff (Peoria, Illinois)        
Reply 38

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Can understand the desire/need to rinse silver as "on the door" basket is tricky - for best results load plates in front and be sure no nesting of silver with up and down, mismatched loading.

As far as the rest of the load - powercleans are my fav, unless the mesh filter is plugged with calcium/gel detergent buildup - cannot imagine prerinsing w a powerclean wash system. They handle plenty of soil amazingly well if loaded correctly.


Post# 1180982 , Reply# 41   5/19/2023 at 19:16 (314 days old) by JoeEkaitis (Rialto, California, USA)        
Let the dishwasher do it

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The high-temp wash option on our previous Whirlpool-built Kenmore and our current Whirlpool overrides the soil sensor during the pre-rinses (2 for Normal, 3 for Heavy).  It then fills with fresh water for the wash instead of reusing the pre-rinse water.

 

Possibly other brands do the same.

 

Your dishes get a pre-rinse and your hands stay dry.

 


Post# 1181006 , Reply# 42   5/20/2023 at 04:20 (314 days old) by GELaundry4ever (Nacogdoches, TX, USA)        
dishwasher doing the prerinse

I completely agree. I let the dishwasher be the dishwasher. Besides, it already does a prerinse anyway.

Post# 1181020 , Reply# 43   5/20/2023 at 12:25 (313 days old) by wayupnorth (On a lake between Bangor and Bar Harbor, Maine)        

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My 1995 Whirlpool owners manual does say I do not have to pre-rinse dishes, BUT if the dishwasher is not used for an extended length of time, which I do only when it is fully loaded, usually about once a week, Whirlpool recommended to either run rinse and hold cycle or pre-rinse under a faucet to keep odors down. I wouldnt pre-rinse if I had a full load all the time but since it is just me, the dishwasher will only be run with a full load.

Post# 1181024 , Reply# 44   5/20/2023 at 14:05 (313 days old) by DADoES (TX, U.S. of A.)        

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I found wayyy back with the KDI-17a that running Rinse/Hold caused much more odor (in no more time than one evening to the next) than not running it.  Quit using R/H then, items were barely scraped, rarely had cleaning failures even considering the one-armed wonder-ness of it.


Post# 1181026 , Reply# 45   5/20/2023 at 15:24 (313 days old) by mark_wpduet (Lexington KY)        

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I remember that rinse/hold from the past and I never ever used it... I always remember wondering what "hold" meant... I understand that it's a rinse only cycle...but after it's done what's it holding for? The main cycle? I mean, if it's rinse only why not just say "rinse only"



Post# 1181028 , Reply# 46   5/20/2023 at 15:39 (313 days old) by foraloysius (Leeuwarden, Friesland, the Netherlands)        

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I run the dishwasher only two or three times per week. I leave the door ajar to prevent the dirty dishes to get smelly. Better dried on food than a stinky machine.

Post# 1181029 , Reply# 47   5/20/2023 at 15:42 (313 days old) by GELaundry4ever (Nacogdoches, TX, USA)        
ruined racks

I have seen ruined racks all because of prerinsing. Today's detergents are caustic and very harsh. Take Cascade Platinum Plus for example. I leave dishes all crusty and food stuck smeared, stuck on or even burnt on and it cuts through the worst messes. My racks are still intact because I refuse to prerinse the dishes when the dishwasher already does it. Also, mine also has sensors that calculate how dirty the dishes are. It's better to use the dishwasher to its full potential.

Post# 1181030 , Reply# 48   5/20/2023 at 15:52 (313 days old) by DADoES (TX, U.S. of A.)        

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Hold refers to leaving the unwashed load wet and waiting for addition of more dirty dishware to run a full wash-rinse-dry cycle.  Some dishwashers had a Rinse-Dry cycle for freshening seldom-used items that may be dusty from storage.


Post# 1181050 , Reply# 49   5/20/2023 at 21:24 (313 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        
Rinse and Hold

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In days before enzyme containing automatic dishwasher detergents certain soils proved difficult. Notably protein based things such as egg, milk and so on. This was more true if things were allowed to sit and such soils dried onto dishware.

Rinse and hold allowed a housewife or anyone else to say load breakfast dishes let machine "rinse", then allow dishes to sit until full load would be run later in day or whenever.

Idea was to release Madame or whoever from manually rinsing dishes before they went into machine.

As for modern dishwasher detergents being "caustic", well yes they are, but far less than previous years.

Back in day much like commercial/industrial automatic dishwasher detergents still sold today that for home use was a powerful mix of highly caustic chemicals and chlorine bleach. Things had to be that way since only thing going for you was hot (to scalding) water, force of spray and very high pH to break down and remove soils.

With enzyme based dishwasher detergents pH can come down as they do the heavy work of breaking apart soils. You still need a moderately high pH if for nothing else to saponify grease and oil based soils commonly found on dishes, pots and pans.

Furthermore older dishwashers ran very short cycles. That high pH and very hot water didn't need long to work, especially when machines used copious amounts of water that was basically blasted at dishes. My vintage GE Mobile Maid actually moves about slightly from force of water jets. You can hear dish and glass wear being beaten about which likely explains why so much as become marked.

Modern dishwasher run normal cycles that take several hours, more than enough time to get things clean using lower pH levels and reduced spraying action.




This post was last edited 05/20/2023 at 23:46
Post# 1181053 , Reply# 50   5/20/2023 at 21:38 (313 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        
Adding My Voice To Others

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Since this thread has been reactivated...

Studies have shown consistently through years pre-rinsing dishes before going into dishwasher not only wastes water, but also can be harmful to machine.

It's like washing one's hair with whole "lather, rinse and repeat". Notice with second application of shamppoo one usually gets tons more froth. Well that's all excess to requirements surfactant having nothing to work upon because hair is already clean.

Anyone who needs to pre-rinse their dishes before they go into dishwasher needs to get another machine. That or maybe change detergents.




















This post was last edited 05/20/2023 at 23:42
Post# 1181411 , Reply# 51   5/28/2023 at 14:10 (305 days old) by maytaga806 (Howell, Michigan)        

This is what I tell people. It’s no different than washing clothes. You wouldn’t take a typical dirty shirt in the laundry and take it to the sink to run it under water before tossing it into a washer would you? No, same should be for your dishes. Scrape, load, done. Check filter every week or few weeks depending on usage. I recently got this new portable full sized GE dishwasher made by Haier, and it has both a manual filter and a food chopper and since it has the help from the food chopper the filter keeps itself very clean, I rarely need to wash it. But where alot of consumers fail when following this method is they don’t clean their dishwashers. They don’t even guess it would need that. I run a monthly sanitization cycle w/ Cascade cleaner after washing the filter and the entire floor of the tub by hand and around door and gaskets. I’ve followed this method for ten years now and I’ve had nothing but the cleanest dishware in town!

Post# 1181423 , Reply# 52   5/28/2023 at 18:08 (305 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md)        
New Haier built GE dishwasher

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Interesting, I am unaware of any chopper in that pump assembly, the drain impeller will and macerate a little bit of food waste as it goes down the drain, but it doesn’t have a chopper as such that grinds up food to help it get filtered out.

John


Post# 1181438 , Reply# 53   5/29/2023 at 02:54 (305 days old) by chetlaham (United States)        
Blame the appliance manufacturers

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Most dishwashers sold were merely a gimmick. IMO pre-rinsing comes from normal healthy able minded people using GE, D&M, Westinghouse, Durawash, any machine that lacked an actual fine filter. Followed by poor spray patterns, short prewahses, too short main washes, excessive pump water carry over, and inadequate or no water heating in the main wash. 90% of all DWs installed in homes merely fountain-ed unfiltered water, and still those that didn't had other performance marring flaws.

 

I come to this conclusion from my own mother whom I convinced to start using the GE DW in our new place. At the time I knew nothing about appliances and we were all happy we'd never have to wash another utensil. We were wrong. We loaded everything as is but after a few loads with particles on everything, even trying various DW detergents like Cascade,  she started prewashing everything spotless. Called maintenance and then a repair tech who both said nothing was wrong with the machine and that it was essentially normal to pre-rinse dishes beforehand. The next load she told me "DWs are a gimmick" with the rest of the rest of us disappointed saying we had a feeling it was to good to be true.

 

 

Thinking about it the whole experience makes me very angry. A simple pull out fine filter in the sump would have solved the problem, but for some reason manufacturers thought it better to take large food particulates and redistribute them as thousands of smaller ones.

 

 

Despite having a Whirlpool built Maytag, my mother still pre-washes everything. I keep having to remind her but she says she doesn't want to chance it. I now understand the saying "you never get a second chance at making a first impression" 

 

Truth is unless a DWs can't take scraped dishes that haven't seen a single drop of water post meal with several days of dried on food into spotless residue free, particle free surfaces then its a gimmick. 

 

Outside of the WP Power Clean Filter Module, WP Point Voyagers, most Maytag JetCleans, some back filter orbital GEs and some modern machines the rest are simply expensive decoys. 

 

If you want energy efficiency laws to work, don't regulate how much water or electricity an appliances uses but rather its performance. Performance dictates energy use. Not the other way around. 


Post# 1181462 , Reply# 54   5/29/2023 at 14:05 (304 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md)        
Dishwashers were never gimmicks

combo52's profile picture
Hi Chet oh, dishwashers have been highly useful work, saving appliances, almost since they were introduced, yes, some of the early machines were not nearly as effective as dishwashers today, but they still saved a great deal of labor.

You did not mention what age or approximate model your GE dishwasher was that you felt works so poorly.

It’s true GE never made a really good dishwasher until the multi orbit wash models of the early 80s but earlier models were also quite useful and would produce clean dishes without rinsing.

I find it interesting that you as an appliance and technical expert can’t convince your own mother to use a new dishwasher properly , I hope you have a good relationship. Otherwise that’s pretty interesting. My parents always respected the opinions of their kids and generally follow advice as we follow their advice when it was good.

John.


Post# 1181465 , Reply# 55   5/29/2023 at 14:39 (304 days old) by chetlaham (United States)        

chetlaham's profile picture

Dishwashers have often resulted in more water and energy being wasted pre-washing than that used through hand washing alone.

 

I can not agree that a dishwasher without a fine filter can produce particle free dishes simply because it just does not happen. Even with the best detergent, rinse aid and sheeting action you'll still find particles in the concave recesses of cups and saucers.

 

The age of the GE DW wouldn't matter, we both know that up until 2007 BOL and most MOL models did not have a fine filter of any kind. 

 

Once a habit is set, it is hard to break. This is not only true for my mother, but millions of Americans. Hence why this debate exists in the first place.

 

Unless a DW passes the coffee ground test where 2-3 table spoons of average grounds sprinkled inside at the start of the cycle can not be found at the end of the cycle than the machine will eventually condition users into pre-washing dishes. When you find a redeposited particle has essentially melted and fused to the plate in the heated dry cycle you'll make sure it never happens again.

 

 

 


Post# 1181471 , Reply# 56   5/29/2023 at 15:55 (304 days old) by IIIJohnnyMacIII (North Carolina)        

iiijohnnymaciii's profile picture
I purchased a new BOL 3 rack Kitchenaid 2nd generation manual filter machine in 2021. I use 2 tbs cascade in main wash and 1 tbs in prewash. I completely fill my machine with dishes. After the wash is done, I never have particles left on top of my cups, ect. If water is left on cups, the water is always crystal clear. I never pre-rinse either. The machine uses 9-10 gallons on my prowash (sensor wash) cycle. Filing both sides of my sink with water and replacing at least once (which would be the case if I manually washed all the dishes my dishwasher accommodates for) would account for 8 gallons anyway.

Post# 1181472 , Reply# 57   5/29/2023 at 15:57 (304 days old) by appnut (TX)        

appnut's profile picture
John, my mom was the queen of her castle. I'm sure I was a source of embarassment to her at times. My dad told me as I got to early teen years and their friends began discovering my unusual hobby and knowlege I had, I'd be contacteed to help them solve what was wrrong with their appliance/how to use it and also when replacements were needed. My dad beamed with pride. My mom began sabotaging my dishasher loads after she discovered I wasn't fully rinsing. While we still had WK #1, she iscovered there were remnants of scrambled egg on the filter after a Full Cycle following Saturday morning breakfast. She went ballistic and told me in no uncertain terms was I to evr o taht again. After cleaning the filter, she ran the whole load again. Her sabotaging was placing a cookie sheet on top of the dishware in the top rack and if there was food remnants, it would all collect on top of the cookie sheet. She'd slyly do this after I'd left the kitchen area. I didn't usually unload the dishasher and it took me a few times to figure out what she'd been doing the few times I did unload the DW and discovered the cookie sheet on top. Several times a year they'd have 4-12 couples over to play Duplicate Bridge (dinner included) and she became the envey of alll her friends because I'd stay up late after evryone went home and ran the 2 or so loads of dishes after those parties. Sometime after I bought the GSD1200, my parents were visiting. Mom saw me put really dirty stuff in the ishwashre after dinner. She commented, that won't get clean. I replied just wait. She was bowled over. Soon after, they ecided to replace the original cooktop & wall oven as well as replace the 1973/74 Rotorack. But she only used Rinse & Hold, Energy Saver Wash, or China Crystal cycles. I doubt no other cycles were used from that time until they sold the house in May 2001/2002.

Post# 1181473 , Reply# 58   5/29/2023 at 16:03 (304 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        

launderess's profile picture
My vintage GE Mobile Maid dishwasher leaves things yibble free. Just scrape and into the machine things go.

Then again normal cycle is W-R-W-R-R-D with copious amounts of hot water, and spray jet pressure that could scrub paint off walls.


Post# 1181474 , Reply# 59   5/29/2023 at 16:15 (304 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md)        
Dishwasher effectiveness

combo52's profile picture
Hi Bob, that’s quite a story, but sounds like your mother learned in the end, it’s too bad you had to endure her abusive sabotaging as a child, however.

No, dishwasher will leave particles of food on dishes that are properly loaded, I’ve never seen a dishwasher leave particles on a plate that was working properly for example.

Chet dishwashers are not necessarily made to save water. Their main goal is to save work and save time, the dishwasher saves me nearly 1 hour of work a day because we do a lot of cooking at home. Everything goes in the dishwasher.

If you ask me to put a cost on the dishwasher I would have to pay at least $20,000 for the amount of work it saves me, the idea of washing dishes or even rinsing them by hand it’s just not something I want to spend my time on.

John


Post# 1181497 , Reply# 60   5/29/2023 at 21:44 (304 days old) by GELaundry4ever (Nacogdoches, TX, USA)        
dishwasher usage

Appnut, it seems to me that your mom didn't use normal or pots and pans, depending on what she was washing. I also doubt that she used high temp wash or heat dry if options were available, or even use Cascade detergent or rinse agent. It was probably how she loaded it.

Post# 1181498 , Reply# 61   5/29/2023 at 22:03 (304 days old) by maytaga806 (Howell, Michigan)        

John, my model does claim to have a food chopper. The “Piranha Hard food disposer” they call it. Do most manual cleaning filter machines have these or this exclusive? I’ve never had a machine of this variety before so I assumed that’s why the filter stays so clean considering how much I run it. Maybe this is something new they did for the GE model.

CLICK HERE TO GO TO maytaga806's LINK


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Post# 1181511 , Reply# 62   5/30/2023 at 10:16 (303 days old) by GELaundry4ever (Nacogdoches, TX, USA)        
to maytaga806

I am curious about that too. It seems that most have either one or the other, except for GE who has both.

Post# 1181525 , Reply# 63   5/30/2023 at 13:15 (303 days old) by chetlaham (United States)        

chetlaham's profile picture

John, I hate to make a conditional statements, but I'll go outside my lines and say Whirlpool, Maytag and others would have never gone to the trouble of adding fine filters to their machines if a plain old pump and macerater was enough.  You must have never used a BOL GE DW. Your dish loads are always in WP power clean machines, which are in a class of their own. Nothing can come close in terms of water filtration, particle disposal, self cleaning, and dish clean-ability. I also take it you've never seen a BOL GE DW drain with the door open which I've done... The water drains faster than the particles suspended in the water can keep up.  

 

Any reputable appliance sales man will tell you if you want spotless dishes to stay clear of BOL and some MOL models.


Post# 1181545 , Reply# 64   5/30/2023 at 18:21 (303 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md)        
Reply number 61

combo52's profile picture
I can’t imagine any purpose that that played does as the water has already gone through the ultrafine filter before it goes into the main wash pump, so I’m afraid I’m gonna call it a gimmick.

Reply number 63 hi Chet , I have used and worked on and assisted people with more of those basic GE dishwashers than you have ever seen, as I said, they’re not the best design, but they will get rid of particles and they will get dishes clean if they’re loaded properly GE literally sold millions of those dishwashers and while probably half the people rinse before they put dishes in the dishwasher about half do not, and we’re quite satisfied with the performance, it’s too bad you and your mother did not learn to use the dishwasher properly.

John.



Post# 1181556 , Reply# 65   5/30/2023 at 21:29 (303 days old) by GELaundry4ever (Nacogdoches, TX, USA)        
my bosch built kenmore

My Bosch-built Kenmore does an amazing job cleaning dishes. If you open the door quickly, you will get sprayed in the face. That is how powerful it is, even at normal speed. Even with the Cascade packs which do suds, it barely even slows down. The filthiest dishes I've put in it so far was a mixing bowl full of blueberry pancake batter. I mainly use smart wash and turbo clean. I can also tell that the dishes barely have anything on them after the first rinse, yet the water is filthy. I will have to continue to play with it some more just to see how else I can challenge this machine. I did use normal once and it did just as good.

Post# 1181567 , Reply# 66   5/31/2023 at 03:01 (303 days old) by chetlaham (United States)        
Selling Millions

chetlaham's profile picture

Of course! GE was aimed at builders and landlords, which there are many. Its not how well the machine works, its about securing a sale in an cost conscious buyer. Those who tried their first DW in an apartment, builders home, or had cost driven buying learned to pre-wash.

 

 

But its becoming a moot point thankfully, manufacturers have finally started adding a fine filter on even their BOL machines. Something that should have occurred in the 70s. They even had the room to do so in the sump (think 70s plastisol GE DWs).


Post# 1181571 , Reply# 67   5/31/2023 at 06:36 (303 days old) by GELaundry4ever (Nacogdoches, TX, USA)        
apartment dishwasher

My dishwasher is in my apartment and it's not like any builder grade model.

Post# 1181573 , Reply# 68   5/31/2023 at 07:04 (303 days old) by chetlaham (United States)        

chetlaham's profile picture

Lucky!

 

I wish they made a builder's grade WP power clean module. Same pump and tub but a single none delay start knob labelled heavy/normal/light (or PotsnPans/Heavy/Normal) with a heated dry on/off rocker.  4.5 gallons of water for the Light (Normal) cycle for clean-ability that even the modern tall tubs can't offer. This is really this is what the market as a whole has always craved.

 

Its so ironic though. BOL Whirlpools in the 80s had a vertical pump design, and so did Hotpoints/GEs up until the late 1960s. All they had to do was wrap a stainless steal fine filter on the upper part of the pump body. Clean dishes, 1/4 the water used and a happier user. But sadly someone somewhere along the line lost their mind.


Post# 1181578 , Reply# 69   5/31/2023 at 11:01 (302 days old) by GELaundry4ever (Nacogdoches, TX, USA)        
pumps on my Kenmore dishwasher

I believe the pumps on my Kenmore are horizontal. They do pack a punch because you can hear water flying everywhere. If there's a con about this dishwasher, it's that there's no real heated dry. I do however use the dry assist option which raises the temp of the final rinse and extends the dry time. It's basically a quasi heated dry. Back to the pumps, they sound like a bldc driven dual pump system. It's the quietest I've ever heard.

Post# 1181581 , Reply# 70   5/31/2023 at 12:25 (302 days old) by chetlaham (United States)        

chetlaham's profile picture

IMO, the best dishwasher pump is vertical in nature. The drain impeller in power cleans and Jet Cleans is absolutely the lowest point of the pump body and whole machine itself water wise. Literally below that you have the water seal. There is not even 1 cup of carry over. Add a purge and you've got a totally clean pump with no meaningful amount of dirty water. All other pumps will have some degree of carry over, even those with a separate aux drain pump. There will always be residual water below a horizontal impeller and in the sump housing. 

 

Further, the same winding that starts the motor in wash can be revered to set the pump in drain mode. One asset maximized for two functions, actually 3 when you take food grinding into account. And no weak sauce shaded pole or 35 watt permanent magnet torque, you've got 2-4 times more torque before the start winding drops out than the listed 1/3 HP. 

 

IMO the Power Clean and Jet Clean is by far the best water saving mechanism ever produced exceeding even modern tall tubs in efficiency.

 

I'm not a fan of machines without a heated dry, but then again if Power Cleans with their 150*F final rinse had a blower like Kitchen Aids and older Maytags it could be pulled off with less energy in whole than a heated dry.

 

Power Cleans were not that loud either, Kenmores came with a harmonic motor ball, glued on sound dampening panels on the tub and door liner and IIRC chunky insulation around the motor/toe kick area. 

 

Modern tall tubs are more quite though, but I don't like them for many other reasons.

 

I'm glad your Bosch Kenmore is working out for you. Do you have pictures of it?

 

 

 

 

 


Post# 1181588 , Reply# 71   5/31/2023 at 14:10 (302 days old) by GELaundry4ever (Nacogdoches, TX, USA)        
pictures

I wish I had pictures, but I don't. It does, however, have a turbo clean option.

Post# 1181593 , Reply# 72   5/31/2023 at 14:47 (302 days old) by GELaundry4ever (Nacogdoches, TX, USA)        
model#

The model# is 630.13902011. I'm sure there are pictures online.

Post# 1181652 , Reply# 73   6/1/2023 at 14:24 (301 days old) by chetlaham (United States)        

chetlaham's profile picture

I found the parts diagram. Bosch is really respectable, but, the horizontal pump is not my cup tea.

 

 

Anyway from the other thread, a GE plastisol. A pull out fine filter basket would have been a perfect fit in these. Big enough to hold food soils without plugging up after one cycle. Instructions in the door like "clean sump filter periodically" would have been a perfect compliment.

 

 

 

 

 


Post# 1181662 , Reply# 74   6/1/2023 at 15:06 (301 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md)        
Filters in Dishwashers

combo52's profile picture
You could not place a filter in the sump of an older, GE dishwasher that all the water went through without having the most disgusting unsanitary dishwasher probably ever built.

So much food and garbage would accumulate in just one load that it would stink to high heaven if not cleaned immediately the rents water would be filled with dissolved solids, and the glasses would not be sparkling, etc.

Chet i’m sure somebody at GE thought of your idea and tried it was rejected immediately for these reasons.


All dishwashers that have a filter attempt to self clean the filter the majority of The stuff rinses down the drain every time the machine drains you can’t keep the food in a dishwasher and expect to have clean dishes.

In any dishwasher if you have food particles left behind in the bottoms of classes, etc. you’re not loading the machine correctly or the machine is not functioning correctly many companies, GE D&M Frigidaire, waste king, Thermidor, and many others did not have any type of filter, and they performed satisfactorily. Yes, having a filter does reduce water usage somewhat because the particles can be trapped and flushed away reducing the volume of water needed. However, dishwashers with filters usually worked a little better, but they didn’t use any less water.

John.


Post# 1181664 , Reply# 75   6/1/2023 at 15:27 (301 days old) by chetlaham (United States)        

chetlaham's profile picture

If it is as bad as you claim, then design a dual port sump like on modern machines- course filter in the center of the pull out for the drain pump, fine filter on the outside of the pull out cylinder for the wash pump. Anything would have been better than forcing people to pre-wash.  


Post# 1181665 , Reply# 76   6/1/2023 at 15:33 (301 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md)        

combo52's profile picture
Chet don’t be ridiculous, nobody was ever forced to pre-rinse Consumer Reports never pre-rinsed dishes for the hundreds of tests. They did a Dishwashers, and they generally came out quite clean.

Self flushing filter could’ve been used, there’s certainly no reason for me to design one they’re already use.

A lot of consumers don’t like modern dishwashers like Bosch because of the stinky filters.

That’s why premium dishwashers today do not have the filter that Hass to be removed and cleaned.

John


Post# 1181666 , Reply# 77   6/1/2023 at 15:40 (301 days old) by chetlaham (United States)        

chetlaham's profile picture

Have a look at the title. Not everyone was blessed with a power clean. I'll take stinky filters any day over labor and wasted water.  


Post# 1181669 , Reply# 78   6/1/2023 at 17:11 (301 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        

launderess's profile picture
The Freedom Maker!






Post# 1181672 , Reply# 79   6/1/2023 at 17:31 (301 days old) by wayupnorth (On a lake between Bangor and Bar Harbor, Maine)        

wayupnorth's profile picture
I had that exact model in Harvest Gold too. It did clean everything perfectly. Pros- cleaning ability, roto rack blasted everything clean, Cons-12 or 22 minute heated dry which was not needed as no air dry was offered. After 22 minutes, hit cancel-drain, timer would reset, open door, spin roto rack and once dishes were not too hot, put them away. Screws on the bottom of the door wore holes through the porcelain and it leaked.

Post# 1181673 , Reply# 80   6/1/2023 at 17:37 (301 days old) by JoeEkaitis (Rialto, California, USA)        

joeekaitis's profile picture

 

Nice phony version of "Happy Birthday to You" which was still under copyright at the time.


Post# 1181684 , Reply# 81   6/1/2023 at 20:01 (301 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        

launderess's profile picture
Who knew "Happy Birthday To You" had such a complex legal history.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Happy_Birt...


Post# 1193332 , Reply# 82   11/10/2023 at 14:51 by GELaundry4ever (Nacogdoches, TX, USA)        

I have put food-caked dishes in my Bosch-Built Kenmore with Cascade Platinum Plus, and they don't foam as long as there's something for them to work with. The last thing I need is a dishwasher - a really nice one at that in my apartment to just fall apart due to pre-washing. All it does is contribute to rusting of racks. I wonder which product is more harsh. Cascade Platinum Plus or Finish Ultimate clean and shine? Either way, I want them both to work immaculately. I believe Bosch Recommends Finish which I plan on trying, although I've had great success with Cascade products. They do foam, but they get the job done despite this, and that's all I ask. And yes without pre-rinsing. All I do is scrape and load. I could even leave it for a week without pre-washing.

Post# 1193336 , Reply# 83   11/10/2023 at 15:29 by wayupnorth (On a lake between Bangor and Bar Harbor, Maine)        

wayupnorth's profile picture
I usually run my 30 year old Whirlpool dishwasher once a week. I always run them under the faucet before loading them as my owners manual recommends it if it is not run frequently and my racks still look like new and no rust on any of them. I'll do it my way, you do it yours. I wish they still made Palmolove Eco liquid as that worked the best for me at about $2 a bottle. I refuse to spend $10+ for name brand pods and other fancy crap.

Post# 1193374 , Reply# 84   11/11/2023 at 06:01 by DaveAMKrayoGuy (Oak Park, MI)        

daveamkrayoguy's profile picture
Most dishwashers other than the very BOL do boast a rinse and hold feature, I'm guessing those who don't pre-rinse in the sink may use...

Or perhaps if it qualifies as an unnecessary use of water when the normal washing cycle upon the dishwasher finally getting full finally gets used...

I'd learned it was best to have used my pre-rinse dishwasher cycle when I had a few really smelly items put in the dishwasher's cavity and during then was rather slow to finally conjure up a full dishwasher load which did get fully fresh and clean...



-- Dave


Post# 1193397 , Reply# 85   11/11/2023 at 12:13 by Logixx (Germany)        

logixx's profile picture
No need to manually pre-rinse, when the first minute of the pre-rinse washes off much of the residue already:

CLICK HERE TO GO TO Logixx's LINK


Post# 1193399 , Reply# 86   11/11/2023 at 12:22 by wayupnorth (On a lake between Bangor and Bar Harbor, Maine)        

wayupnorth's profile picture
But the residue from garbage sitting 7-10 days before running stinks every time you open the door to add something, so I rinse off and I am not changing. I only run mine when I cant cram another thing in it and then only on Light Wash.

Post# 1193443 , Reply# 87   11/11/2023 at 23:40 by tolivac (greenville nc)        

Long ago when I used my dishwasher-tried putting the dishes in after tilting off te large peices.When I loaded the washer again-it was full of ROACHES!!!So I put in the detergent and ran the hot cycle.After it was done found chopped up roaches on the dishes.Then ran again-was OK.Since the washer has died haven't bothered with another.Just do what most others here don't like-wash the dishes ny hand.I don't want to wait for the machine to take 2-3 hrs to complete its cycle.Have to go to work or bed.Don't want the washer running while not home or asleep.Bad things can happen!

Post# 1193452 , Reply# 88   11/12/2023 at 02:25 by foraloysius (Leeuwarden, Friesland, the Netherlands)        

foraloysius's profile picture
If you don’t have such problems like roaches or a bad cleaning dishwasher, it’s best to leave the dishwasher door a bit ajar so it can air out. Even after four days mine doesn’t smell. The food dries up and the inside of the dishwasher stays dry. No need to use rinse hold every time either.

Post# 1193453 , Reply# 89   11/12/2023 at 02:31 by appnut (TX)        

appnut's profile picture
Toggles called it Rinse & Mold.

Post# 1193491 , Reply# 90   11/12/2023 at 16:18 by GELaundry4ever (Nacogdoches, TX, USA)        
strictly prohibited

Pre-rinsing dishes before they go into the dishwasher at my apartment is strictly prohibited. This is what I tell friends and they get the message. Maybe I should post it on my fridge. I've never had ruined racks as a result of not pre-rinsing, as others have seen. I leave dishes quite dirty all the while with the dishes scraped. It is a Bosch under the name Kenmore. It has given me immaculate dishes every time whether I use Cascade or Finish products. And if the dishwasher smells, that is what the detergent smell is for. It not only cleans your dishes, but freshens your dishwasher while doing so. That is what I experienced.

Post# 1193497 , Reply# 91   11/12/2023 at 16:53 by wayupnorth (On a lake between Bangor and Bar Harbor, Maine)        

wayupnorth's profile picture
Pre-rinsing is mandatory in my house as it will usually sit for a week. It is only run when packed full and only on Light Wash and all the dishes are clean after a week of sitting in there and almost 30 years later my racks are still fine.

Post# 1193514 , Reply# 92   11/13/2023 at 00:38 by DaveAMKrayoGuy (Oak Park, MI)        

daveamkrayoguy's profile picture
Divided issue alright, and just when I wanted to see if Boshe is right or full of cr-p... (the video is gone)

Just did a load, I didn't use my Sani-Rinse, which if my dishwasher has, then if the wet dishes aren't gonna sit around another day soaked why not?, and in the morning I'll see how they turn out--my Kroger Brand equivalent to the latest Finish/Cascade surely blasts away the stinky scum and makes everything, well, CLEAN ENOUGH TO EAT OFF OF...!



-- Dave


Post# 1193550 , Reply# 93   11/13/2023 at 15:14 by panasonicvac (Northern Utah)        

panasonicvac's profile picture
The last apartment I've lived at, the Crossly dishwasher got clogged two or three times I believe as my roommates didn't pre-rinse out the dishes other than scrapping them in the trash. My aunt bought an LG a couple years ago for her new house, it doesn't do a very job like the Maytag from her old house. I recall that our KitchenAid missed some spots a few times when the dishes didn't get pre-rinsed or just barely rinsed out by hand. Anyways the point though is that I think some dishwashers you can get away without having to pre-rinse them out but not all of them. I'll wash and scrub some dishes out by hand if they can't go into the dishwasher but only rinse out if they can go into the dishwasher. I agree with Tim as the dishes in my sink can smell if they're not pre-rinsed out after sitting for a while, I'd rather not have that stink in the dishwasher either. Not to mention I don't like the idea of having to reach down and pull out the filter trap on some models to clean out.

Post# 1193670 , Reply# 94   11/15/2023 at 16:09 by beehiveboy (Northamptonshire, England )        

beehiveboy's profile picture
Everyone should do what suits them best, after all, it’s not harming anyone else is it! But my experience of being in sole charge of the dishwasher for about 35 years, and being a light scraper, never a rinser, is about 13 775 clean loads, no clogged machine and a filter that gets a cursory rinse every quarter.


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