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Thread Number: 43975
STPP |
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Post# 646423 12/14/2012 at 13:54 (4,144 days old) by ozzie908  (Lincoln UK) |
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| Post# 646449 , Reply# 1 12/14/2012 at 15:39 (4,144 days old) by danemodsandy (The Bramford, Apt. 7-E) | ||
STPP Is: | ||
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Post# 646580 , Reply# 2 12/15/2012 at 02:01 (4,144 days old) by sudsmaster (SF Bay Area, California) |
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Post# 646583 , Reply# 3 12/15/2012 at 02:53 (4,143 days old) by donprohel (I live in Munich - Germany, but I am Italian) |
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Yes, it's available in the UK Just click the link CLICK HERE TO GO TO donprohel's LINK | ||
| Post# 647243 , Reply# 4 12/17/2012 at 21:25 (4,141 days old) by wascomat_kid () | ||
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Is S. T. P. P. still available here in the USA too? A few yrs ago, it used to be in carpet extraction detegent; not sure about nowadays. | ||
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Post# 647330 , Reply# 7 12/18/2012 at 08:13 (4,140 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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Think You'll Find That Is TSP | ||
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Post# 647332 , Reply# 8 12/18/2012 at 08:20 (4,140 days old) by sudsmaster (SF Bay Area, California) |
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Laundress is correct. TSP can still be found in many hardware stores, although one must be careful to note that there is a phosphate free product, called "T.S.P: Totally Superior Product" which is not the same thing.
And TSP is not the same as STPP. It is basically not very suitable for laundry, as it will create a precipitate like washing soda does. You want STPP instead for laundry. | ||
| Post# 647340 , Reply# 9 12/18/2012 at 08:52 (4,140 days old) by JeffG () | ||
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Now if Kelloggs would only stop putting TSP in their cereals... I cringe every time I read the labels. "Hey kids, breakfast is ready. Come and eat your paint remover." | ||
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Post# 647529 , Reply# 10 12/18/2012 at 22:09 (4,140 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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Phosphates In Food Can Actually Be A Good Thing | ||
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Post# 647567 , Reply# 11 12/19/2012 at 02:07 (4,140 days old) by sudsmaster (SF Bay Area, California) |
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TSP in their cereals...
That would probably be STPP, which is perfectly safe (as long as it's food grade). It's used in a wide variety of foods as a humectant - it's probably in cereals to help keep the dried fruit softer and more appealing.
Phosphate is a vital nutrient for people, animals, and most plants. Without phosphate your DNA would fall apart and your muscles couldn't move. Humans excrete more phosphate than the average washer or dishwasher. | ||
| Post# 647578 , Reply# 12 12/19/2012 at 04:33 (4,139 days old) by JeffG () | ||
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It's not STPP It's trisodium phosphate. Read the labels on a box of Cheerios of other Kelloggs cereal. Less of a vital nutrient and more of a paint stripper. :) | ||
| Post# 648663 , Reply# 14 12/23/2012 at 20:20 (4,135 days old) by DigAPony () | ||
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I was in a discount/clearance type store today. The had a big stack of Ace powered and liquid detergent, they look like the Tide boxes as mentioned but all in spanish. However, both specifically stated: Does Not Contain Phosphates. | ||
| Post# 648713 , Reply# 15 12/23/2012 at 23:56 (4,135 days old) by whirlcool (Just North Of Houston, Texas) | ||
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I have seen where you can use STTP as a preservative to pack fish in too. We ran out and will have to order more. Clothes seem to come out cleaner and as mentioned earlier rinse much better with STTP in the load. | ||
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Post# 648714 , Reply# 16 12/23/2012 at 23:57 (4,135 days old) by sudsmaster (SF Bay Area, California) |
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Linked below is a very good explanation of STPP | ||
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Post# 648715 , Reply# 17 12/24/2012 at 00:02 (4,135 days old) by sudsmaster (SF Bay Area, California) |
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And since I wrote it ... I don't have a problem reposting it here:
"STPP" is a term you may see mentioned in threads here on THS. It stands for Sodium Tripolyphosphate, one of the group of compounds known as complex phosphates. Why is STPP important? Well, after WWII, synthetic detergents gradually replaced natural soap products for use in washing machines. The detergents had the advantage of using surfactants, or sudsing agents, that were not as liable to being inactivated by hard water mineral ions as soaps were. However, surfactants are only a fraction of the mixture we call a laundry detergent. To replace other actions of a natural soap, compounds known as "builders" are added to detergent formulations. These builders function in several ways. They increase the alkalinity of the wash solution, which helps the surfactant activity and also helps to emulsify fats and oils in the soiled fabrics. They also help to "break" clay-types of dirt from the fabrics, and combine with it to help prevent it from redepositing on the fabrics. They also function to combine with hard water mineral ions, thus "softening" the water. As with many things, some compounds are better at "breaking" function than others. A common builder is sodium carbonate. It has high alkalinity and also is good for breaking soil from fabric. However, it will form an insoluble compound with the hard water mineral ions, and also with mineral ions in the soil they release from fabrics. This insoluble compound gets redeposited on fabrics and washer parts. On fabrics it can look like white lint or powder. On washer parts, it can form a rock-like scale which can be harmful to the washer mechanisms. Here is where complex phosphates come in. These are cool because not only do they have all the virtues of water softening and breaking of precipiting breakers like sodium carbonate, but they also do not form a precipitate with mineral ions. Rather, they form what is known as a "complex" with them, which stays in solution and is easily rinsed away. Complex phosphates can occur in several different types of compounds. The most common used in powdered detergent formulations has been STPP or sodium tripolyphosphate. This compound works well to lift minerals like calcium, magnesium, and iron from fabrics as well as soften water, without forming a precipitate. STPP has one weakness, and that is that over time, with exposure to water, it will decompose into a mono-phosphate, or "orthophosphate", called trisodiumphosphate, or TSP. TSP is often used for cleaning hard surfaces where a precipitate is not a problem, but due to its precipitate formation is not favored for laundry use. Many dishwashing detergents contain complex phosphates; for this reason the boxes usually are tightly sealed in foil faced packages, and have advice printed on them to store them in a cool dry place. This is intended to help prevent moisture from getting in and converting the complex phosphates to monophosphates. After WWII, detergent manufactures started adding complex phosphates to laundry detergents. However, several environmental issues raised their heads in the 60's and 70's regarding detergents. One problem was the use of non-biodegradable surfactants. These would cause the appearance of persistant suds on streams, rivers, and lakes, which was a graphic indication of man-made pollution. It was relatively easy, however, for the detergent industry to switch to biodegradable surfactants that worked just as well as the non-biodegradable surfactants. Another problem was the eutrophication of some lakes by excess algae growth. Phosphate is one of the three major essential plant nutrients. Since it does not migrate out of soil very easily, it is generally the most limited nutrient in fresh water bodies. In other words, nitrogen and potassium, the two other major essential plant nutrients, can be in water in abundance, but if phosphate levels are limited, then algae growth will be suppressed. With untreated municipal sewage entering lakes, the phosphate concentrations can go up and enable algae growth to the point where oxygen in the water is depleted and fish die. Now, the situation is more complex, if you will, that a simple link between phosphates in laundry detergents and eutrophication. That's because phosphates are also an essential nutrient for humans, and a large part of the phosphates that enter the waste stream are from human bodily functions. Additionally, phosphates are still allowed in dishwasher detergents, and overfertilizing of gardens, lawns, and agricultural fields can add more to the fresh water ecosystem. There is also some opinion that focusing solely on phosphates as a solution to pollution ignores the deleterious effects of high amounts of nitrogen and other contaminants in waste waters. Additionally, tertiary sewage treatment plants can remove phosphates from waste waters, and the recovered phosphates can be used in animal feeds or as fertilizers. In any case, the upshot has been that about half the states in the USA, and much of Europe, have limited or banned the use of phosphates in laundry detergents. In the US at least, however, in most areas phosphates are still allowed in laundry detergents for institutional or commercial laundries - a testiment to the clear cleaning value that complex phosphates add to the laundry process. And of course phosphates are still allowed in dishwasher detergents throughout the USA, another recognition that their function is difficult to replace with other compounds. In Europe and increasingly in the USA, compounds such as zeolites (aluminum silicates) and phosphonates (a form of phosphate not thought to aid algae growth) are being used as subsitutes for complex phosphates in laundry detergents. However many powdered detergents simply use sodium carbonate as the main builder, with some sodium silicate to help protect washer parts, and some modified paper pulp, known as CMC or carboxymethylcellulose, to help prevent the redeposition of soil back onto fabrics. Also, more sophisticated laundry detergents have newer and patented chemicals to help address the functions once served by complex phosphates. Some of these newer chemicals are much more toxic than the phosphates they replace, and in one case, an attempted subsititution resulted in holes being eaten in some fabrics! Which brings us to another widespread use of complex phosphates. Being an essential nutrient to both plant and animal life, complex phosphates have very low toxicity. In fact, STPP is often added to meat and fish products to maintain a soft yet firm, appealing texture. It's even in most toothpastes. Without phosphates in your diet, your DNA would disintegrate, and your muscles would be unable to move. So, despite the bad name that phosphates have gotten over the years, they are in fact essential to all life. For those living in areas where phosphates are not banned in consumer laundry detergents, they can be found in some detergents, like Ariel made in Mexico. They can also be found in some laundry water softeners, such as White King. And, STPP can be purchased from local chemical supply houses, or through the internet from various hobby/craft sites. Please note that I am not advocating use of phosphates in home laundry where their usage is banned by local laws. I am fortunate enough to live in an area where phosphates are still legal. However, I became aware of the value of phosphates when I noticed that white clothing suddenly became much harder to clean after my favorite laundry detergent, "Clout", removed phosphates from its formulation in the mid-1990's. After some investigation I figured out that STPP was the missing ingredient. I have found that STPP makes a big difference in cleaning heavy clay soil from my gardening clothes, as well as keeping whites cleaner and brighter. I use STPP in a 1:2 mix of STPP:HE detergent for use in my front loader. I also use about 1/4 to 1/2 the recommended amount of detergent, which helps keep total phosphate use to a minimum. I have found that in addition to helping cleaning, STPP does not fade colors and seems to rinse away easily. It is also somewhat milder than sodium carbonate (it buffers at a lower pH), which means it can be more gentle on clothes while being a superior cleaning agent. So, in a nutshell, that's my take on "STPP": a non-toxic, superior laundry cleaning compound. Where permitted, STPP can be the laundryman's - and laundrywoman's - best friend. | ||
| Post# 1041754 , Reply# 18 8/14/2019 at 16:18 (1,710 days old) by bladeandstone (Austin, TX) | ||
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Thank you sudsmaster Such a well written and digestible summary, Thank you so much for sharing. | ||
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Post# 1041788 , Reply# 19 8/14/2019 at 22:30 (1,710 days old) by SudsMaster (SF Bay Area, California) |
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Post# 1041922 , Reply# 20 8/16/2019 at 17:13 (1,708 days old) by jamiel (Detroit, Michigan and Palm Springs, CA) |
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Excellent summary. My grandfather worked for Monsanto/Detergents, Inc when they developed All back in the late 40s. They lived in Chicagoland later in life where phosphates were banned early (in 1969 or so)...my grandmother used the 10 lb pail detergent from Jewel which was full of soda ash and her Maytag was encrusted badly. Using a phosphate detergent...that wouldn't have occurred.
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Post# 1041924 , Reply# 21 8/16/2019 at 17:44 (1,708 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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Phosphates, phosphates, phosphates
Love em, luuuv them!
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| Post# 1041929 , Reply# 22 8/16/2019 at 20:12 (1,708 days old) by Kate1 (PNW) | ||
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Can this be added to all modern machines without problems? I’m very curious about this. What other restrictions or suggestions for use are there? Can you use it with any detergent? | ||
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Post# 1041930 , Reply# 23 8/16/2019 at 20:17 (1,708 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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Long answer short is, yes
You can use phosphates with any modern detergent, and no it won't harm your washing machine.
That being said, and know will take some heat from certain quarters, but find the addition of STPP with TOL modern offerings of detergents like Persil (German and American versions), Ariel (European) not really necessary. Even current offerings of Tide liquid seem to give excellent results on their own. | ||
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Post# 1041946 , Reply# 24 8/17/2019 at 00:07 (1,708 days old) by SudsMaster (SF Bay Area, California) |
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To tell the truth, I stopped adding STPP to laundry a few years ago when the Persil Perls in a jug became available. To my dismay this year, however, I discovered that the Persil Perls in a jug are no longer available. So I switched to the Persil Original Liquid, which does reasonably well.
I still have plenty of STPP, which should come in handy when I start working under my cars again... | ||
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Post# 1041981 , Reply# 25 8/17/2019 at 06:21 (1,707 days old) by foraloysius (Leeuwarden, Friesland, the Netherlands) |
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Post# 1042039 , Reply# 26 8/17/2019 at 16:22 (1,707 days old) by SudsMaster (SF Bay Area, California) |
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STPP and Bleach
Louis says you can't use STPP with chlorine bleach. As a one-time chemist, I don't understand why there would be an issue. STPP is not an acid, it does not contain ammonia, and AFAIK it doesn't react or deactivate chlorine bleach. That said, I don't use chlorine bleach in my washer anyway. I did some cursory Googling about the two but found nothing of concern if they were mixed.
Decades ago, many powdered laundry detergents contained STPP, and chlorine bleach was also used heavily for such things as diapers. If there was some incompatibility I would have thought this would not have been the case. Louis, do you have anything to support the concern about mixing STPP and Chlorine bleach? | ||
| Post# 1042051 , Reply# 27 8/17/2019 at 17:56 (1,707 days old) by Kate1 (PNW) | ||
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Are there any problems using STPP with certain fabrics? 99% of what I own is cotton, which would be fine but what about other things like polyester or even wool or silk? | ||
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Post# 1042070 , Reply# 28 8/17/2019 at 21:04 (1,707 days old) by lakewebsterkid (Dayton, Ohio) |
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STPP STPP and bleach shouldn’t be an issue. I have never had issues with STPP interacting with specific fabrics. I see a FAR greater benefit of using it in the dishwasher versus the washer though. | ||
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Post# 1042072 , Reply# 29 8/17/2019 at 21:21 (1,707 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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While milder than washing soda, lye or caustic soda
Phosphates are still alkaline and thus shouldn't be used on protein fibers such as wool or silk. This is why for most part one shouldn't use all but the mildest soap on woolens or silks either.
It also explains why soon as light duty detergents like Dreft, Fewa and others came on market, soap for doing "fine laundry" got the push. If one had very hard water and no other choice but to use soap, it was/is possible to use STPP for washing silks or woolens, but one had to know what one was doing to prevent damage. Very basically protein fibers are not harmed by (mild) acids, but cellulose textiles such as cotton and linen are susceptible. OTOH cellulose fibers can withstand alkaline pH (within reason), but again protein fibers like woolens and silks cannot. For those who permanently color, curl or straighten their hair, same pH rules apply. Hair is made from protein; alkaline pH substances break down the hair, cause it to swell and thus allow alteration of color, curl pattern, etc... When the process is completed an acidic solution is used to "neutralize" previously used chemicals and thus make whatever change permanent (hopefully). Drain cleaners based on lye basically because the high pH will attack and eat protein based clogs (hair), and the Saponification reaction between a base substance and fats found in drain (clog) turn it into soap which is more easily flushed down drains. | ||
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Post# 1042074 , Reply# 30 8/17/2019 at 22:18 (1,707 days old) by foraloysius (Leeuwarden, Friesland, the Netherlands) |
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Post# 1042083 , Reply# 31 8/18/2019 at 03:04 (1,707 days old) by SudsMaster (SF Bay Area, California) |
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Post# 1042093 , Reply# 32 8/18/2019 at 10:25 (1,706 days old) by mrboilwash (Munich,Germany) |
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IIRC back in their days powdered detergents for wool and silk were full of phosphates but also buffered with an acid to achieve a milder but still slightly alkaline pH.
Just checked some of today`s wool wash products (Coral Wolle und Seide, Perwoll Wolle und Feines, Sanso, Woolite) and can confirm all of them, the powders as well as liquids have a pH range of 8 - 8.5 Not exactly neutral but still very mild alkaline, some inferior bar soaps can be more aggressive in pH. Contemporary Sanso powder is even loaded with washing soda but also buffered to a milder pH of course. I remember that liquid Perwoll used to be slightly acidic according to the msds at some time ago, but for some mysterious reason this isn`t the case anymore. So if someone desperately wants to play chemist on washday, yes it is possible to use harsh chemicals like STPP or washing soda even for the most delicate things like wool and silk as long as the pH is properly buffered with an acid. I wouldn`t dare doing this myself because I have no way to check the pH of the finished product accurately. I don`t think litmus paper would do in this case. This post was last edited 08/18/2019 at 13:02 | ||
| Post# 1042206 , Reply# 33 8/19/2019 at 10:25 (1,705 days old) by bladeandstone (Austin, TX) | ||
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STPP with Borax and/or Sod Carb? Are there occasions where one would recommend including STPP along with either Borax or Washing Soda or both? | ||
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Post# 1042228 , Reply# 34 8/19/2019 at 13:39 (1,705 days old) by DADoES (TX, U.S. of A.) |
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 I've added STPP to every wash load for 10+ years, with any/all other additives ... chlorine bleach, oxygen bleach, or Biz powder. Have never used borax, or washing soda (sodium carbonate) directly other than whatever amount it may be present as a "filler" in other products. If I understand correctly, sodium carbonate is primarily used as a water softener for laundry ... but it generates a precipitate. STPP does not (it's non-precipitating) so is a better choice, and washing soda shouldn't be needed with it. | ||
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Post# 1042237 , Reply# 35 8/19/2019 at 14:51 (1,705 days old) by mrboilwash (Munich,Germany) |
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Not a chemist here but if you add a weaker base substance like STPP to a stronger base like a heavy duty washing powder it would add up the total pH, wouldn`t it?
And aren`t aluminum washer parts susceptible to strong bases? And don`t detergent manufacturers therefor add silicates like water glass, another strong base but it also forms a protective coating on metal washer parts thus acting as corrosion inhibitors. I wonder if there really are no negative effects on washer parts to expect in the long run if STPP is added to any detergent but the silicates to other alkali ratio is not altered accordingly. I mean if detergent is mixed with STPP you end up with a higher pH and at the same time you weaken the corrosion inhibitors of the detergent. Not an ideal combination. Or have I missed something? | ||
| Post# 1042271 , Reply# 36 8/19/2019 at 22:51 (1,705 days old) by Ultralux88 (Denver) | ||
Interestingly, I’ve just recently started using Bubble Bandit... we have hard water and have yet to install a softener, so it’s been challenging. The dishwasher was getting coated in deposits and scale, and the washer was also. Both were also just full of dinge, and it was frustrating and kind of disgusting. My thinking here was, if the machine is coated in this nastiness, I just have the feeling the dishes and clothes were too. I had the chance to add some TSP that was being used to clean a cement floor to a load of white ‘just I see’, and they care out the cleanest and whitest I’ve ever seen! So I decided that detergent with STPP in it would be good, and so far it has actually cleaned the clothes, the washer, the dishes and the inside of the dishwasher is completely clean and new looking again. I also notice that I can just load the plates into the dishwasher with absolutely no rinsing or even scraping, and they come out completely clean, dry, and spot free. Although the first couple weeks of dishes were very spotty, this stopped as soon as the dishwasher was cleaned inside.
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Post# 1042280 , Reply# 37 8/20/2019 at 00:43 (1,705 days old) by SudsMaster (SF Bay Area, California) |
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add a weaker base substance like STPP to a stronger base
No, adding STPP to a stronger base like washing soda would not increase the pH (make it even more basic). That's because these chemicals have a pH point about which they like to sit. STPP's pH point is lower than washing soda's, so it might well reduce the pH of the resulting mixture, albeit probably only slightly. In more technical terms, STPP will try to buffer the solution to a lower pH.
One time a while ago I tried taking a warm bath with STPP as a sort of bath salt. The water felt wonderful and I came out feeling quite refreshed. | ||
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Post# 1042303 , Reply# 38 8/20/2019 at 09:13 (1,704 days old) by mrboilwash (Munich,Germany) |
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