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Thread Number: 44010
120v/220v vs Straight "220v,208v etc.." |
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Post# 646780 12/15/2012 at 23:09 (4,142 days old) by Launderess  (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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| Post# 646784 , Reply# 1 12/15/2012 at 23:55 (4,142 days old) by arbilab (Ft Worth TX (Ridglea)) | ||
3 prong was the former US standard. 2 hots and neutral but no "ground". *I believe* the current US standard is 4 prong, neutral PLUS ground. Much as the former US 120V standard was hot and neutral but long since has been hot/neutral/ground when applicable to much more than lighting.
Does this make sense? I can't cite the code prescribing it. | ||
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Post# 646791 , Reply# 2 12/16/2012 at 01:08 (4,142 days old) by sudsmaster (SF Bay Area, California) |
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That sounds correct, Arbi. The four prong outlet/plug adds a separate ground.
A Miele can be wired to run on the three prong system. I know because I run three of them (two W1065's and one W1918) and they run just fine that way. Adding a ground wire will of course enhance safety (mainly, it protects the machine) but... three wires will work, functionally. I won't comment on code. A licensed electrician would have to follow local code which likely requires a four wire grounded setup. | ||
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Post# 646794 , Reply# 3 12/16/2012 at 01:20 (4,142 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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I know because I run three of them | ||
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Post# 646799 , Reply# 4 12/16/2012 at 04:37 (4,141 days old) by mrboilwash (Munich,Germany) |
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| Post# 646821 , Reply# 5 12/16/2012 at 09:44 (4,141 days old) by gr81nknox () | ||
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3 prong on 220V Neutral and ground shared the third(center) prong. Around 1998 or so is when the code switched to 4 prongs which gives you a separate ground and neutral. I'm not an electrician so I can't tell you what the advantage of the 4 prong set-up is. | ||
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Post# 646958 , Reply# 6 12/16/2012 at 18:03 (4,141 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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| Post# 647030 , Reply# 8 12/16/2012 at 23:16 (4,141 days old) by arbilab (Ft Worth TX (Ridglea)) | ||
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Present code specifies "ground" as not carrying current in normal operation. In an old US 240V dryer, "neutral/ground" carried tub/fan motor, timer, and lamp current as these were 120V components.
In almost all circumstances, the voltage present at 'neutral' cannot be dangerous when touched at the same time as "actual" ground. But codes try to anticipate the worst possible situation. | ||
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Post# 647034 , Reply# 9 12/16/2012 at 23:36 (4,141 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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NEMA On Wikipedia
Thanks for the great explination!
Saw Wikipedia's entry awhile back when doing research on the subject and they too state that NEMA 14-30 plugs (IIRC that is the number) are for appliances that pull both 120v and 220v. My question then and now was how can appliances use both and isn't that a rather odd arrangement as compared to pure 208v,220v, etc power. For instance years ago when Miele just discontinued the 19XX series and floor models could be had at discount,inquired from Miele could the units run on a "regular" 220v outlet instead of their "special" plug. Miele customer tech said "no" because "some internal parts require 120v power and others 220v). To complicate matters further Miele washers of the 700 and 10XX series sold in the USA though states 120v/220v on the plate, could be wired to run on 120v only. So what happened to the components that required 220v power? The motor one knows runs on 120v because have tried to source one from various places in the UK and EU but they all are 208v/50hz. There was an early Miele condenser dryer on eBay while back that was wired to run on 220v with a standard "American" three prong plug. Again the plate stated 120v/220v power required but obviously the thing ran. Then there is this: some Miele appliances such as ironers were happy to run on either "American" or "EU" 208v-220v power. Miele seems to be the only European washer maker that has this sort of electrical arrangent. Bosch, Asko, Blomberg, Fagor all use 220v power without the 120v bit. Mind you some want a 20amp or 30 amp circut but that is another matter. | ||
| Post# 647047 , Reply# 10 12/17/2012 at 02:17 (4,141 days old) by ronhic (Canberra, Australia) | ||
some want a 20amp or 30 amp circut
I can't understand why when, for example:
- British plugs are 13amp fused - Australian sockets are maximum 10amp. In Australia, it is possible to get more powerful sockets for airconditioners etc - we have one here...but it is very unusual, this being the first time I've ever seen a socket greater than 15amp in a house. Basically, Miele supply Australia with 240V appliances that draw a maximum of 10amp or less.... | ||
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Post# 647053 , Reply# 11 12/17/2012 at 03:03 (4,141 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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Post# 647054 , Reply# 12 12/17/2012 at 03:04 (4,141 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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Post# 647055 , Reply# 13 12/17/2012 at 03:10 (4,141 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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| Post# 647064 , Reply# 14 12/17/2012 at 06:21 (4,140 days old) by ronhic (Canberra, Australia) | ||
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Oh, I'm not doubting what is supplied to the US market - I'm questioning why the great variation in the first instance within that market.
Here, the domestic standard is 240V/10amp... Major items that need installing, such as heating systems or ducted airconditioning or very large split systems may need more amps than 240V/10amp. But then, they're not the sort of thing you just 'replace'. However, the power requirement was one of several reasons that Fisher and Paykels top-loading electric dryer flopped here - insufficient space in laundrys not used to 2 appliances that size to start with, but also because it was an oddity in a market of conformity - Very very few people were prepared to upgrade their laundry power and household fuse boxes to cope with its need for more amps. In a country that many hold as 'world leader', the US doesn't appear to have a SINGLE domestic standard for power - different voltage/amps are supplied at different points in the house. You can't just plug anything into any socket and it'll work. Here and in the UK, you can. I can plug a washer or dryer into the socket I have my bedside light plugged into or where the toaster is in the kitchen should the desire be there and it'll work correctly. It makes no sense why a market would allow itself to develop this way and even less so that it was allowed to without intervention. | ||
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Post# 647074 , Reply# 15 12/17/2012 at 07:28 (4,140 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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"US doesn't appear to have a SINGLE domestic standar
Actually we do and it tis what causes EU/UK laundry appliance makers fits.
120v/15amps 60hz for most normal circuts. 120v/20amps 50hz for appliances requiring more power such as air conditioners. 220v/30amps 60hz for most applications requiring high power draw such as electric ranges, ovens, certian air conditioners (IIRC >10,000 watts), large clothes dryers, etc... Just because an appliance is only rated for 10amps or 15amps at 220v does not mean one cannot use the 30amp circut. It just provides a larger wiggle room. What Blomberg, Fagor, Asko, Bosch, and Miele (when they offered 220v washers) is that homes would have an electric "dryer" circut in the laundry area (again usually 220v at 30amps) so the washer and dryer could both be run off the same and not cause problems. Washing machines with heaters are still rather new to Americans coming from top loaders and the offerings by domestic brands such as Whirlpool generally have heaters that draw 1000 watts or less. This keeps them below the requirements for a 120v/15amp circut. Of course things would be much eaiser if the USA adopted 208s/220v power for everything like the UK, EU and other countries, but that isn't going to happen. All the EU manufactuers have to face the same problems that caused Miele grief, not every home has nor wishes to install 220v power just to run a washing machine. | ||
| Post# 647103 , Reply# 16 12/17/2012 at 09:32 (4,140 days old) by MikeKLondon (London) | ||
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IT sounds to complex Most washers and dryers are rated at 2800- 3000 watts and up to that you can just plug in to any power point. High rating than that and you just have a 20- 45 amp point put in and the machine is wired in to that point directly. | ||
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Post# 647121 , Reply# 17 12/17/2012 at 10:50 (4,140 days old) by DADoES (TX, U.S. of A.) |
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 As has been discussed in previous threads, U.S residential power now is 120v and 240v. People refer to it as 110 and 220 out of (old) habit. These readings are taken on the spare dryer circuit in my garage. 120v across one leg to ground/neutral, 240v across L1 & L2. Being that standard residential circuits are 120v, heavy-duty appliances and equipment that takes 240v needs a dedicated circuit installed. A given 240v circuit is sized for the equipment it will service, thus the reason for a range of 240v amperage circuits and outlets. 
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Post# 647122 , Reply# 18 12/17/2012 at 10:54 (4,140 days old) by DADoES (TX, U.S. of A.) |
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Post# 647217 , Reply# 19 12/17/2012 at 20:21 (4,140 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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Most washers and dryers are rated at 2800- 3000
IIRC Miele's 19XX and maybe 12XX series had the most powerful heaters of EU washing machines sold on these shores (3000 watts). Fagor, Asko, Bosch, Blomberg, etc range anywhere from the low 2000watts to around 2800 watts.
Think Fagor has ceased importing 220v washers into the USA and now only has the W&D combo which makes one think the powerful heating elements are more for the dryer than heating water. Blomberg units actually have gotten good reviews from owners and others here. Pity their distribution/service network isn't that strong yet. Remember hearing and or reading somewhere that heating water is actually rather hard on washing machines, cannot imagine why. | ||
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Post# 647270 , Reply# 20 12/18/2012 at 02:05 (4,140 days old) by sudsmaster (SF Bay Area, California) |
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So where does the "120v" part come in then?
The basic US 220 volt circuit has two "hot" wires and one "cold" neutral wire. Either hot wire will give 120 volts when connected across a load (light bulb, heater, mixer, whatever) to the neutral wire. When the two hot wires are connected across a load to each other, then that load will see 220 volts. That's because the hot wires are 180 degrees out of phase with each other.
The four prong US 220 volt has an extra measure of safety in the form of a separate ground wire. Theoretically (and in most practice) the neutral wire in a 3 prong setup is at the same electrical potential as ground. But because it is connected to 120 volt components of the appliance, it also carries current. The danger COULD come if there is a break in the neutral circuit, as in the wall or breaker panel, and then the neutral wire becomes "hot" with respect to ground. A separate ground wire adds a measure of security in the event that the chassis of the appliance is bonded to the neutral circuit and the neutral circuit fails. Of course if both the ground wire and the neutral wire circuits fail, then that measure of safety is gone. As far as I know, the Miele 1918 uses 120 volts for the control panel, the drain pump, and things like the door locks and water valves. I don't know about the motors, but the heater elements are PROBABLY running of 220. I say probably because I have monitored the rate of heating of the 1918 to the 1065. The 1065 is MUCH faster at coming up to temp. Of course, that could be because the 1918 interrupts the heating circuit in order to slow down the rate of heating, better to enable a "profile" wash to allow the enzymes to do their thing for a longer period of time. | ||
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Post# 647419 , Reply# 22 12/18/2012 at 14:52 (4,139 days old) by DADoES (TX, U.S. of A.) |
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Post# 647497 , Reply# 24 12/18/2012 at 19:46 (4,139 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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Miele 220v Machines
At least the older models of washing machines had parts which ran on 120v and others which required 220v. For instance the 10XX series of washers could be run on 120v/220 or pure 120v. Know at least the motor is 120v because one has tried findind similar in the EU as a back-up replacement and none will work because they are 220v/50hz.
Early dryers are an other story. There was a *vintage* Miele condenser dryer up for grabs awhile ago which clearly had a sticker on the front stating it required 220v/240v for operation. However the electrical plate read the same standard requirement all Miele appliances have "120v/220v". The plug on the unit was a standard three prong 220v plug similar to what one has on the Pfaff ironer. So if there were any 120v parts inside that dryer they were not bothered by running on 220v and or the machine was designed to cope. | ||
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Post# 648411 , Reply# 25 12/22/2012 at 16:29 (4,135 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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Found the schematics for my Miele
Whilst had the thing opened a few days ago looking about as to the condition of the suspension system. Mind you several Miele techs have trooped in and out of my home and having had the machine open claimed they couldn't find the "paper". Soon as one opened and peered inside the unit they were clear as day. Right in front corner in a sealed plastic bag.
Anyway not that one is great at reading such documents, but can clearly see that both heating elements are 120v, as is the pump and motor. Indeed next to model name/numbers on the papers say "120v/60hz". | ||
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Post# 648511 , Reply# 26 12/23/2012 at 01:27 (4,135 days old) by sudsmaster (SF Bay Area, California) |
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Voltage doesn't tell the whole story.
Each wire to the motor could be labeled 110 volts. But if they are 180 degrees out of phase, then the load across the motor would be 220 volts. Same for the heating elements. It would be much easier for Miele to run 220/split phase across the heating elements - which don't care about frequency or the fact that the two hot leads are out of phase, so the same heating elements could be used for US spec and Euro spec machines. Motors can be more picky about things like line frequency, and there are special safety/insulation considerations for US spec 220, in which both leads are hot and there is no neutral circuit (typically). | ||
| Post# 648514 , Reply# 27 12/23/2012 at 03:43 (4,135 days old) by PhilR (Quebec Canada) | ||
I think most older dryers can be easily converted to 4 prong/separate ground wires.
Here in Canada, we never had shared ground/neutral on our dryers and we can't get the wall outlets for these... I got two 240V dryers in the US and both could be easily converted to separate neutral/ground just by removing a ground wire attached to the chassis and neutral terminal in the dryer and replacing the power cord with a grounded one (and add the green wire to the chassis where the jumper was previously connected). | ||
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Post# 649393 , Reply# 28 12/27/2012 at 18:30 (4,130 days old) by Toggleswitch (New York City, NY) |
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Here is my question.
Is there a 4-wire 4-prong NORTH AMERICAN 220v socket and plug for LESS than 30 amps? I can not think of a configuration for a 110v/220v-15a or 110v/220v-20a circuit. The outlets that I can think of have only a ground and two hots, but not a neutral. I also can not think of why a European-made machine would need a neutral, which with our system, would only serve to deliver 120v to the machine. I just switched-out a 1987 Miele washer and condenser dryer with newer Miele washer and vented dryer for a friend. I had to take the 4-wire/prong "dryer" cords off the new machines, and go back to use the 4-wire cords that were used on the old machines. You see, the plug itself had 3-prongs. Within the plug itself the neutral and the ground were combined (by the electrician years ago who did the job). The wall outlet and circuit had three prongs only, no neutral. It is obvious that Miele at that time had NO IDEA what our wiring color-codes were. And the scheme they used in their appliance junction boxes made ZERO intuitive sense (from USA viewpoint). ORANGE (Machine) => RED(cord) BLACK (Machine) => BLACK(cord) BLUE (Machine) => WHITE (cord) GREEN (Machine) => GREEN (cord) BLUE is NEVER used here as a neutral (coded white here) BLUE here is a hot; usually 3-phase. There was no documentation anywhere on the machine, or on the web, [the older one from 1987]to figure this out. It turns out there were tiny markings on the terminal block as to 1-2-N-G (i.e Line 1 Line 2, neutral, ground). The NEWER Miele machines had the customary/appropriate color coding BLACK-WHITE-RED-GREEN. [ H-N-H-G] Please note also that this order (of colors) is the traditional way found in wiring blocks in electric stoves/cookers and dryers. That machine made total sense to me when connecting it. | ||
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Post# 649454 , Reply# 29 12/27/2012 at 23:12 (4,130 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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I also can not think of why a European-made machine would ne
It is a puzzlement a Moi aussi, but that is what Miele claims it's 120v/220v machines require.
However being as that may as you've and other have found/pointed out many have used the old "three prong" 220v pulgs and simply used the matching outlet. If one's limited knowledge of electrical works holds then the machine isn't getting an isolated 120v line, but two 120v lines out of phase to make 220v. Reading through various materials persons were kind enough to send in my efforts to sort out my vintage machine, one finds other interesting things as well. Apparently Miele offered lower wattage heating elements for certain models of older washers. One could swap out the 3kW for a 2kW for the given reason that if the latter was causing too much of a power drain on a circut (tripping fuses). | ||
| Post# 649627 , Reply# 31 12/28/2012 at 18:45 (4,129 days old) by ronhic (Canberra, Australia) | ||
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only has 2 wires and an earth | ||
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Post# 649633 , Reply# 32 12/28/2012 at 19:12 (4,129 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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The United States Will Switch To 220V Power Shortly Before I
Or just barely afterwards! *LOL*
Unlike much of the UK and EU that were in ruins post WWII and thus required rebuilding (a perfect time to make such decisions), the USA has built out and up an electrical power gird system that relies mainly upon 120v power for most (non large and or heating appliance) usage and that is all there is to it. It would cost billions and take years to change things around not to mention cause untold numbers of consumers grief as they would have to update appliances. Again much of the reasons UK/EU homes require 220v (or even 400v in some areas) power just do not exsist here. Hot water comes from central boilers which are most often gas or oil heated. Those two types of fuel are usually cheaper than electric in many areas of the country and that is usually the largest influence on appliance purchases. Being as all that may one does not doubt the value of washing machines that can heat water. However one does not have to go all out to 220v power. A 120v/20 amp circut would provide enough power to run a 1300w or 1500w heater which is more than enough, especially for the puny amounts of water most modern front loaders use. | ||
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Post# 649850 , Reply# 33 12/30/2012 at 00:04 (4,128 days old) by sudsmaster (SF Bay Area, California) |
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Again, it is my recollection that when I replaced the door lock relay on one of my 1065 washers, the circuitry was running off 110 volts, not 220.
I believe this to be the case for safety reasons: if everything on the washer ran at 220 volt split phase, then every circuit would have to be isolated from the frame, since both legs of 220 split phase are hot. By running only 110 volts to some parts, these circuits could be polarized and use frame ground, which would be the same as neutral. And even if they didn't use frame ground, the neutral circuit would not pose the same level of danger that a hot leg would. Just a thought. Pretty sure that relay was rated at 110 volts. Can't remember if I put a voltmeter on it during the repair, though. | ||
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Post# 649852 , Reply# 34 12/30/2012 at 00:14 (4,128 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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Well Just Peeped Through Service Manual For W 11XX and 12XX | ||
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Post# 650108 , Reply# 35 12/31/2012 at 02:09 (4,127 days old) by sudsmaster (SF Bay Area, California) |
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OK, when I get around to it I'll crack open one of the W1065's again and test the door lock relay, which sends voltage/current to the door lock as needed. It makes sense that it would be 110, since it's mounted on the frame and having a neutral as one of the wires could cut down on shock potential issues. I'll also see if I can fish out the wiring diagram - as I recall they're in a plastic bag right up front inside the front panel on these washers. I just need to remember how to open the darn panels.
Keeping everything at 220 could make it easier to transform a Euro model into a US model, excepting of course the 50 hz vs. the 60 hz thing, which could be an issue for motors and computer controls. | ||
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Post# 650195 , Reply# 36 12/31/2012 at 13:08 (4,126 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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OK, Our Miele Serviceman Just Left
While he was working on our unit asked about the 120v/220v thing and was told it was so various parts can work simultaneously. By that it was expalined drain pump and motor and so forth. The door lock for instance on such machines is 220v because it would be the only thing drawing current at that time (you cannot open the door whilst the motor and so forth are running), so there you are then.
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Post# 651260 , Reply# 38 1/5/2013 at 15:51 (4,121 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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120v/220v Requirement Is Why American Dryers
Along with one assumes others with similar electrical requirements cannot be run from step-up converters. OTHO long as the converter is within rating limits and the outlet/electrical wiring can supply European units with straight "220v" power requirements have no problem.
Often persons with say power tools or some such that are only used now and then don't want to or cannot run a "220v" line and resort to step-up converters, however again if the thing requires 120v as well there goes that option. Perhaps the best would be one of those "Quick 220" devices but then you need to find two outlets out of phase with each other. In some older homes/apartments were only one cable/wire brings in power to the fuse or breaker box (often split between two branches) even this option won't work. | ||
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Post# 651341 , Reply# 39 1/5/2013 at 20:40 (4,121 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md) |
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240 Volt and 208 Volt Power Supply It is not one bit cheaper or more efficient to run motors on three phase 208 volt power, it is however cheaper to make a 3 phase motor of a given HP power and cheaper to wire it in to the power system.
There is NO 220 power in this country and it makes one appear very uninformed to even discuss such. | ||
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Post# 651364 , Reply# 40 1/5/2013 at 23:08 (4,121 days old) by kb0nes (Burnsville, MN) |
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Variable Frequency Inverters
Three-phase induction motors have several advantages but energy conversion efficiency isn't one of them. The biggest advantage is starting torque and lack of extra required start components. They also tend to be smaller for a given horsepower as compared to single phase motors and have smoother torque curves over a wider frequency range.
The big game changer is that of variable frequency inverters. One of these coupled to a 3 phase motor allows for amazing control of speed, torque and direction. The use of a VFI can in many cases replace change gears and transmissions. We recently bought a new mid size CNC lathe at work, there is no variable gearing in the spindle drive at all. Just a 25 HP 3-phase motor and a variable frequency inverter drive. The lathe can run in either direction from 300-4000 RPM with almost no change in torque. It even ramps speed dynamically with changes in diameter and can reverse almost instantly for cutting with left-hand tooling! One added advantage of the variable frequency inverter is that they can supply 3 phases from a single phase power. This can make for a economical way to run 3 phase motors in a home shop environment and additionally you can get some degree of speed control to boot! | ||
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Post# 654353 , Reply# 42 1/18/2013 at 22:25 (4,108 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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When You Guys Are Right, You Are Right
Did some research and apparently at one time Miele has sold several flavors of those "splitter" boxes over the years.
One version fitted the standard four prong plug from the washer and dryer into it's outlets, however the plug on the splitter's cord was a *three* pronged 220v/60hz commonly found in some older homes, there was also a green wire with a terminal end leading out of the cable but not part of the plug. What one did was plug the thing into the 220v outlet and attached the terminal end via a screw to the outside of the outlet. The whole thing is similar to those old adapters sold to use things with three prong plugs (120v) with two pronged outlets. Miele no longer stocks these sort of splitter boxes (I checked) but it confirms what many here have said. it is totally possible to wire and use a three pronged 220v plug and that the fourth doesn't "do" much related to the functioning of the machine other than ground and is tied off inside the machine somewhere. CLICK HERE TO GO TO Launderess's LINK | ||
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Post# 654355 , Reply# 43 1/18/2013 at 22:28 (4,108 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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Oh And Another Thing
At least by the last incarnations of 220v powered washers (the 11XX and 12XX series) Miele used heaters with only 2100watts of power. While pushing things close to the windows edge you can eek out 2000 watts or so of power from a 120v/20amp circut IIRC providing the wiring can handle it and it does not go on for hours on end. Am wondering if it would then be possible to use a step-up converter to run a Miele washer off of. I mean if one doesn't plan on doing boil washes from ice cold tap water the other biggest draw would be the motor and on the series in question that only pulls 35watts.
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| Post# 654387 , Reply# 44 1/19/2013 at 01:03 (4,108 days old) by SeamusUK (Dover Kent UK) | ||
Europe is standardised @230V?
In a word is it Heck.......
Was chatting to a guy from UK power networks a while back and mentioned our flat was getting 250v according to my voltmeter- he said the supply voltage is still 240-250v but the acceptable range has been altered on paper- whereas it was 240V-10/+5% its now 230+10/-5%. He said if you think about it how would you change every transformer in such a short space of time for a 10v drop lol? Seamus P.S He also said another factor that makes a difference is how far you are from the substation that serves your building- as ours it literally over the road we are always going to get the high end of acceptable apparently...... | ||
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