Thread Number: 45222
worth upgrading to "little giants" from w1966/t1576? 		[Down to Last]

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Post# 662652   2/26/2013 at 20:56 (4,075 days old) by candoo ()        

Hi all:

We currently have 9 year old miele w1966 washer and t1576 dryer. They have been working ok, but with our two kids getting older, laundry day is getting to be more a chore than we'd like.

I really like the 240v washer because of the high wash temps it can easily generate, but like you all know, this type of washer is almost impossible to get new now. What I want is a compact laundry system, as it fits our laundry area, and that has a higher throughput than our current system. The only one I can see that fits the bill is the miele "little giant" professional pair (pw5065/t5136).

I've researched the little giants about as much as I can online and talking to miele professional. However, what I cannot seem to find out is the wash time to do an average load (ex. full load of cottons, underwear, jeans, etc). our w1966 does a wash (cottons 40-50 deg c) in about 40 mins (more if extra rinse or prewash selected). the t1576 dryer takes more than an hour to dry the load.

The little giant washer and dryer put approx. 3800 watts out of thier heaters (considerably more than our w1966/t1576 pair; 2600w each). Does this translate into a commensurate reduction in cycle time? I was frustrated at the miele people because neither professional nor residential reps could compare because they only seem to know thier line, and not the other.

Also, the miele rep told me both washer and dryer need 240 to 208 v transformers. however, some people here have said thier's are running ok on the regular 240v dryer receptacles. I've found different online literature saying both as well.

Does any one have any knowledge that could help me here?

Thanks





Post# 662879 , Reply# 1   2/27/2013 at 17:12 (4,074 days old) by glenfieldmathk1 (Glenfield-Leicester-UK)        

Usual Wasdh Times for these can vary from a 50minute wash, as used in Laundrettes, washsalons (laundromat's), to longer wash cycles for businesses hotels etc (use the settings menu adjustment thing).
It could be worth upgrading, but have you checked the newer Miele's in your area (not professional ones), as the professional ranges are around 2x more expensive new.
If you want a larger capacity Miele, then check the Octoplus range (Miele Professional) they hold 8KG instead of the 5.5, 6.5KG Little giants.

Post# 662924 , Reply# 2   2/27/2013 at 20:50 (4,074 days old) by candoo ()        

Thanks glenfieldmathk1.

Unlike you people overseas who have 220volts at your receptacles, we are stuck with our low 120volts/15 amps at ours. This of course means that, at most, we have only 1875 watts available from a receptacle. So, manufacturers of appliances have to keep that as the upper limit of power available to operate with. As for washing machine heaters, it means that there is only about 1000 or so watts to devote to the task - the rest of the watts are going to the drive motor and control circuits. This is certainly considerably less heater power than you guys over there, have in your washers - I typically see on the european washer websites, that 2000 plus watt heaters are installed in those machines, and is what I have in my 10 year old w1966 Miele (2 x 1300w).

However, Miele over here has knuckeled under, in their latest residential machines, to the north american voltages that most people plug thier washers into. As a result, the Miele w3033 and w1612 residential washers only have 1000 watt heaters.

The Octoplus machines are too large and likely way too expensive to consider.

A pair of residential machines (w3033/t8003) are about cdn $4000 here. The little giants (PW5065/PT5136) are about cdn $5000 plus $1500 for the 2 transformers, if needed. So, although pricey (approx. 50% more), if I can find out that they'll perform for me, then I'll consider them.

As an aside, just curious; what is the ampacity of a typical washer/dryer receptacle in the UK?

candoo



Post# 662958 , Reply# 3   2/28/2013 at 00:49 (4,074 days old) by dj-Gabriele ()        
As an aside, just curious; what is the ampacity of a typical

 There's no such thing as a washer/dryer receptacle in the UK, nor the rest of Europe.
The power plugs are just the same as other appliances and fused at max 13A. (That means around 3000W of power available).
Elsewhere in Europe plugs are rated at 16A, some countries like Italy on the other hand have receptacles up to 20A in the same form factor and can accept all the plugs (10A, 16A, 20A) those are usually called "bipasso" (double passage) or "universale" (universal) as they can accept all the plugs used in Europe.

The only other exception to this is Switzerland where they have a really odd standard, antiquate if you ask me, of 10A plugs only!

Post# 662967 , Reply# 4   2/28/2013 at 01:44 (4,074 days old) by ronhic (Canberra, Australia)        
really odd standard, antiquate if you ask me, of 10A plugs o

 ronhic's profile picture
Oi!

We've only got 10amp plugs too - 230V @ 10amps is the standard for our powerpoints.

Post# 662975 , Reply# 5   2/28/2013 at 02:53 (4,074 days old) by ozzie908 (Lincoln UK)        
Miele PW6065

 ozzie908's profile picture
my Miele has 2 heaters in it which enable it to run really quick wash cycles, 1 of the heaters is disconnected so I can plug it into a wall socket however if I needed it to be 2x as fast at heating I would need to connect it to a 30 amp supply.
I can use the shower circuit but fast turn around is not needed I don't use it enough.
I have extended the wash times as you can choose how long you want it to wash once temperature has been attained, mine is set to 20 mins and if intensive and water plus are selected it takes 2hrs to do a 40, 60 and 95 the count down stops while its heating. If you want it can do a complete cycle in 40 mins.
I found an online instruction manual at www.miele.co.uk... if I can be any more use please ask.

Austin

Post# 663004 , Reply# 6   2/28/2013 at 07:12 (4,073 days old) by dj-Gabriele ()        
Australian plugs

 At least they're nice as they look like rabbits ahahha :D

That feels strange as there are so many appliances needing much more than 10A!
Like the Kenwood Cooking Chef, it's rated at 2600W or my electric grill at 2500W or many vacuum cleaners, up to 2800W, kettle 3kW too, but so far the most power hungry thing I've seen is my sister's hair dryer rated at a whopping 3kW!

Post# 663263 , Reply# 7   3/1/2013 at 12:05 (4,072 days old) by candoo ()        

thanks ozzie908,

I take it then that you have disabled some of the heating capacity of your little giant washer, because you aren't on an electrical feed that can supply it's capacity. So, if you enabled the washer to be at it's full capacity, would you say that it would be significantly faster for a given cycle than a standard household/residential washer?

dj-Gabriele, ronhic

About the electric provisions in european houses; It's not like our's here in North America, so it's difficult to compare. We have dedicated single 120v/15a circiuts for our larger 120v appliances (washer, refrigerator, microwave oven, dish washer). The rest of the 120v/15a circuits are for low power items (lights, receptacles), that are paralleled together on the same circuit, and each circuit has it's own breaker in the load centre. Also, there are dedicated 240v receptacles for the dryer (30 amp) and range oven (40 amp).

I guess that you guys just plug your washer/dryer into any receptacle that is fused/breakered large enough for the load?

candoo


Post# 663270 , Reply# 8   3/1/2013 at 12:48 (4,072 days old) by dj-gabriele ()        
just plug your washer/dryer into any receptacle that is fuse

 You said it right! And I must add that all the receptacles are made "large enough", at least in buildings made in the last 40 years ehhehe ;)

As an example (and take this as a restrictive one as Italy has "small" electric circuits because current is so much expensive compared to the rest of the world) in my home I have 7 16A circuits: one for the oven, one for the microwave and countertop appliances, one for the dishwasher and other built-in appliances, one for the living spaces, one for the bedrooms, one for the toilets and the last one for HVAC, so whenever in the house I am I could plug a new pyrolitic oven or a dryer (which in fact is what most people do as vented dryers aren't popular over here and everybody has heat pump or condensing ones) or other hi-current appliances.

But don't get fooled by the circuits, the house is on a 30A contract ;) so no more than 6,6kW can be continuously drawn from the grid without tripping the meter! And the standard feed is only 3,3 kW (with a grace period of 3 hours where you can use up to 4 kW)! (So you can use your big appliances everywhere in the house but just use one at a time!)

Post# 663324 , Reply# 9   3/1/2013 at 18:37 (4,072 days old) by candoo ()        

dj-gabriele

Sorry about your high electric rates, and restrictive electrical ampacity. It makes me wonder why most of the european washers have only a cold water supply; if a hot water connection was included ,like here in NA, then it would give the option of doing warm washes cheaper. That is, if natural gas heaters were used.

candoo

Post# 663331 , Reply# 10   3/1/2013 at 19:00 (4,072 days old) by dj-gabriele ()        

In fact you can buy a double fill machine of any brand you wish: Candy, SMEG, Hoover, Hotpoint, etc... they simply went out of market as there's no point in doing that because by the time the washer has done filling the water in the machine is still cold because the pipes haven't purged themselves and because of thermal inertia. (so you spend twice the energy to heat things up!)
You could avoid that with recirculation pumps like at my place or purging the line first but with both methods you end up using more energy (and water in the second case!) than having the machine heat its own water! Plus is lowers the cleaning ability because you deny the capability of doing a "profile" wash activating the different components of the detergents at different temperatures.
It made sense when machines used 15-20 litres of water per kg of clothes but now with consumptions of 6-8 litres per kg, the only situation in which a double fill machine is useful in my opinion is IF one has totally free hot water like with solar collectors in summer! But if heat has to be supplemented in any kind of way all the savings are vanished!

I attached you a link of a double fill machine just to let you see one. (My favourite one actually) ;)

CLICK HERE TO GO TO dj-gabriele's LINK
Post# 663336 , Reply# 11   3/1/2013 at 19:30 (4,072 days old) by logixx (Germany)        

logixx's profile picture
Oh, I loved the hot/old fill on my washer. It would fill with some cold and then alternate hot and cold to achieve a starting temp of 40C and heat up from there. We has a recirculation pump at that place. Now, it's just filling from cold water... and it's even rock-hard well water. :(

40 minutes for a normal wash? Don't think the Professionals are any faster... The Pro dryer is probably faster and about .7 cu.ft larger.

Post# 663362 , Reply# 12   3/1/2013 at 20:38 (4,072 days old) by ozzie908 (Lincoln UK)        
Candoo.......

 ozzie908's profile picture
your spot on if I wanted to use the machine with both heaters running it would get upto temp twice as fast as normal domestic washer, but speed is not required so its fine taking its time, it does have a hot water inlet but its connected to cold only due to our water heater being so far away.

Austin

Post# 663401 , Reply# 13   3/2/2013 at 03:14 (4,072 days old) by candoo ()        

dj-gabriele

Yes, you're right about the warm initial fill ruining the profile wash action, but if you only want a hot wash, then it might save time/energy. Nice SMEG washer! Those sorts of powerful heater washers are commonplace there, wheras here, they are as rare as hen's teeth. Most north americans haven't heard of a "profile wash". The big washers sold here have bleach dispensers to deal with staining (which gradually rots your clothes out).

logixx

Your 40 min wash is likely due to the more powerful heater in your washers than here. Remember, here, we only get 1000 watts from a residential washer heater.

ozzie908

Thanks for that info. This means that it'll be way faster than the weak-heater machines here.

candoo

Post# 663402 , Reply# 14   3/2/2013 at 03:30 (4,072 days old) by dj-gabriele ()        

Think that SMEG is even launching a 5,6 kW powered dishwasher that does a pots and pans cycle in 16 minutes... that is big heating power heheheeh!

Anyway hot water filling shaves just under ten minutes in a wash that is 2 hours or more long so the total difference isn't worth in time savings.

If you were skillful enough, you could do like a friend of mine, programming a PLC for your washer (any washer) with your own programs and give it as much heating power as you wished, using the full 30A of the dryer receptacle and custom heater! :D

Post# 663403 , Reply# 15   3/2/2013 at 03:39 (4,072 days old) by Logixx (Germany)        

logixx's profile picture
My 40 minunte wash? No, I was referring to your statement about your Miele doing a Cotton wash in 40 minutes (without options). That is pretty fast, I think. The Little Giants at our Laundromat aren't any faster. My washer, the German Duet you can see in my profile pic, can't wash that fast because of the cold-water connection. It has a Normal cycle of 60 minutes but unless you wash a small load, like 4 kilos, it'll fail to bring the temp up to 40C within the 30 minutes given for the main wash - despite its 2.100 watts heater. I really wish I still had the hot water connection available as I never had issues with cleaning.

Post# 663478 , Reply# 16   3/2/2013 at 13:05 (4,071 days old) by candoo ()        

dj-gabriele

Wow! Those new SMEG machines certainly sound like beauties, but they, and the PLC thing are way beyond reason for my use. I'm just a guy trying to find a decent laundry system to tackle the coming washing needs for a himself, wife and two growing boys.

Logixx

Sorry, I thought you were talking about your duet machine there. What you said about your like for a hot water connection is informative for me. I've grown up with washers that have hot and cold connections on them - its a North American thing I guess, stemming from our history of generally cheaper energy costs. Anyway, from what you said, it told me that it is a valuable feature to have on a washer, and that I should appreciate it. In fact, I've gone to the German Miele website, and have noticed that they are now coming out with "ECO" washer models that incorporate the hot water input - Very Intersting! - just like us North Americans. Although, the German machines still have the more powerful heaters to go along with it - the best of both worlds. These are just like my 10 year old Miele W1966 washer, that is no longer available -AARRGG!.

To All:

I just wanted to thank the responders here for their time. I'm not sure sure if I got my exact question answered precisely, but the exchange was still informative and helpful.

candoo

Post# 663497 , Reply# 17   3/2/2013 at 13:51 (4,071 days old) by logixx (Germany)        

logixx's profile picture
Yes, many manufacturers are now pushing hot/cold fill for both washers and dishwashers - if one uses solar heat or any other green heat source.

RE: your question. I don't think you'll save much time going to a Little Giant washer. Even the commercial Speed Queen washers have cycle times of 35 minutes, roughly. As I said, the Little Giant at our local laundromat run for slightly over 40 minutes, 45 I think. Washers that run considerably faster are really only supposed to refresh laundry and can only be loaded loosely - given the tub size of the Miele you are looking at at really small load, I think.

The vented dryer, on the other hand, has a deeper drum (the dryer is deeper overall) and more power - so it'll be faster. How much faster depends also on your venting etc. of course.

Alex

Post# 663584 , Reply# 18   3/3/2013 at 08:23 (4,070 days old) by candoo ()        

logixx

"if one uses solar heat or any other green heat source" Does this mean that to use the hot fill facility on the washer, the source has to be "green". Can the source be say, natural gas hot water?

Yes, what you said; the little giant washer probably wouldn't be much faster than my W1966 (2600 watt heater) for loads that don't require very hot temps, however it would probably be faster than the currently available 1000 watt heater machines. The dryer, on the other hand, I think would be noticably faster (3800 watt heater, versus 2600)

Dan

Post# 663589 , Reply# 19   3/3/2013 at 10:27 (4,070 days old) by dj-gabriele ()        
Can the source be say, natural gas hot water?

 Of course, but you won't have any kind of saving and are actually using more energy in a considerable number of situations like I previously explained.

Post# 663776 , Reply# 20   3/4/2013 at 09:23 (4,069 days old) by candoo ()        

dj-gabriele

I was asking the question from the standpoint of wheather or not it was allowed to feed a washer with other than "green" hot water in Germany - I didn't know what the laws are there, because I've heard that "green" and "eco" things are very important to Germans/Germany these days.

I realize that coslty energy would be consumed if you didn't use solar heat for the washer - regardless of it's form. However, in the interest of expediency, hot water input to the washer would decrease cycle time.

Post# 663782 , Reply# 21   3/4/2013 at 10:26 (4,069 days old) by logixx (Germany)        

logixx's profile picture
Here's a YT video I found of a Little Giant. Doesn't say what the power rating on it is, though. Normal cycles are just under 50 minutes and high-temp washes (75C and more) are just over one hour.






Post# 663946 , Reply# 22   3/5/2013 at 08:49 (4,068 days old) by candoo ()        

logixx

Thanks, that was good video. It really went through the cycle times. I'm starting to see that the little giant machines are the ones I'll be seriously considering at for replacing mine.

candoo


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