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Thread Number: 45367
KDS-16 help |
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Post# 664524 3/8/2013 at 08:45 (4,066 days old) by Kenmore71  (Minneapolis, MN) |
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Some of you may recall that a few weeks back that there was a KDS-16 in Minneapolis posted on here. I have come into possession of this machine and am seeking some advice. Mechanically the machine seems to be quite sound--in that it doesn't leak, the wash arm seems good and the water valve & drain solenoid all seem to operate properly. Most of the time. After an evening of "playing" with the marvelous and frustrating beast I am 90% certain that the troubles I am experiencing lie in a badly worn/failing cycle selector switch.
This is an early KDS-16 without the Soak cycle. Can anyone help me in locating the PART number for this switch or better yet offer one up that they know is good? I really think that the timer on this machine is good but the switch is sticky and only seems to select an operating cycle about 20% of the time after significant fiddling. Once a cycle is actually selected it completes just fine...unless you open the door and then all bets are off on getting it to start again. The ONLY button that seems to work faithfully is "Cancel" :) A vast array of photos will follow after I am properly caffeinated... | ||
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Post# 664525 , Reply# 1 3/8/2013 at 08:46 (4,066 days old) by swestoyz (Cedar Falls, IA) |
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Post# 664528 , Reply# 2 3/8/2013 at 09:06 (4,066 days old) by Kenmore71 (Minneapolis, MN) |
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I think they COULD be interchanged. They are a different switch but the only difference that I can see in studying the schematics is that on the pre-soak machines the Sani-cycle uses the Heavy Wash program and the the Soak machines use the Normal program. Off the top of my head I think it could create odd cycle behavior if you actually chose the Sani-Cycle. If you knew to avoid that I think it would work just fine. And, really, WHO uses the Sani-cycle???
So, trade ya a functioning Maytag 740C for a KDS-16 switch? :) | ||
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Post# 664531 , Reply# 3 3/8/2013 at 09:34 (4,066 days old) by Kenmore71 (Minneapolis, MN) |
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Post# 664532 , Reply# 4 3/8/2013 at 09:35 (4,066 days old) by Kenmore71 (Minneapolis, MN) |
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Post# 664537 , Reply# 5 3/8/2013 at 09:51 (4,066 days old) by Kenmore71 (Minneapolis, MN) |
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Post# 664538 , Reply# 6 3/8/2013 at 09:51 (4,066 days old) by Kenmore71 (Minneapolis, MN) |
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Post# 664539 , Reply# 7 3/8/2013 at 09:52 (4,066 days old) by Kenmore71 (Minneapolis, MN) |
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Post# 664540 , Reply# 8 3/8/2013 at 09:53 (4,066 days old) by Kenmore71 (Minneapolis, MN) |
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Post# 664541 , Reply# 9 3/8/2013 at 09:54 (4,066 days old) by Kenmore71 (Minneapolis, MN) |
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Post# 664542 , Reply# 10 3/8/2013 at 09:55 (4,066 days old) by Kenmore71 (Minneapolis, MN) |
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Post# 664544 , Reply# 11 3/8/2013 at 09:57 (4,066 days old) by Kenmore71 (Minneapolis, MN) |
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Post# 664545 , Reply# 12 3/8/2013 at 09:57 (4,066 days old) by Kenmore71 (Minneapolis, MN) |
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Post# 664546 , Reply# 13 3/8/2013 at 09:58 (4,066 days old) by Kenmore71 (Minneapolis, MN) |
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Post# 664571 , Reply# 14 3/8/2013 at 12:35 (4,065 days old) by Kenmore71 (Minneapolis, MN) |
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My suspicions | ||
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Post# 664573 , Reply# 15 3/8/2013 at 12:48 (4,065 days old) by swestoyz (Cedar Falls, IA) |
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| Post# 664950 , Reply# 16 3/10/2013 at 17:52 (4,063 days old) by stevet (West Melbourne, FL) | ||
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part number on timer I don't know if you have found a switch yet, but if you can give me the part number on the back of the switch, I will see if I have one. I have I think 2 new in the bag switch assemblies so maybe you will be in luck. Just let me or all of us here know. | ||
| Post# 664956 , Reply# 17 3/10/2013 at 18:43 (4,063 days old) by varicyclevoice (Davenport, Iowa) | ||
cycle selector switch
I have encountered sticky selector switches on KitchenAid diswashers before and I have used WD-40 and squirted it in the switch with the power disconnected of course. I then gently move the switch in and out repeatedly until it works more smoothly. This has been a successful repair if the buttons are stiff or if the buttons won't stay in, etc.
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Post# 664984 , Reply# 18 3/10/2013 at 21:29 (4,063 days old) by Kenmore71 (Minneapolis, MN) |
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Just a quick update...the machine is working well and I appreciate all of the advice and offers for the needed parts from the wonderful community here! Those who have offered help have all been contacted privately. I have decided to keep the machine and think I'm going to install it as a second "chef's dishwasher" in my kitchen. I do a lot of canning and baking and it would be nice to have a short-cycle machine that scrubs the h**l out of things in short order. I may even remove the upper rack so that I have a machine that I can get big baking sheets, racks and pots in. Right now I have been playing with it in the basement and have been hardwiring it for the various cycles as I test it out. A new toy is always great fun!
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Post# 666782 , Reply# 19 3/18/2013 at 14:31 (4,055 days old) by Kenmore71 (Minneapolis, MN) |
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Updates...
I have been continuing to make progress with the KDS-16.
Here are a few pics of the "field repairs" that have allowed me to continue working in the absence of replacement parts. These parts are coming but it may be a few more weeks... Here's the control center! That's a SPDT toggle switch. When in one position it activates the rapid advance timer reset. When in the other it is in the "run" position for the Heavy Soil cycle. Not elegant, but functional for now! 
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Post# 666784 , Reply# 20 3/18/2013 at 14:32 (4,055 days old) by Kenmore71 (Minneapolis, MN) |
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Post# 666790 , Reply# 21 3/18/2013 at 14:41 (4,055 days old) by Kenmore71 (Minneapolis, MN) |
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And from the back
I have a 3 relays that I need to pick up at Grainger later today that will allow me to remove the water heating elements, drying element and the pump motor from the timer. I'm hoping that this SHOULD extend the life of the timer almost indefinitely to not have any heavy loads running through it. As part of this I will also couple the 2 700 watt water heating elements to BOTH operate whenever the timer calls for a single element. This will require running that power through a relay and making sure that main service to the dishwasher is a FULL 20 amps and wired with 12 gauge wiring. In tests that I have run, this has resulted in 140-145 degree water for the final rinse of the Heavy cycle with the water heater set at 130 degrees! And It's done washing and rinsing in 28 minutes!!! I also plan to install a toggle switch on the lower righthand side of the machine that will turn the drying heating element off for use in the summer when I don't need 30 minutes of steamy air from a 1000 watt heater pouring into my kitchen!. 
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Post# 667654 , Reply# 23 3/22/2013 at 14:11 (4,051 days old) by Kenmore71 (Minneapolis, MN) |
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Up and running!
I have spent the last few days slaving away on the KDS-16 and yesterday brought it up into the kitchen and semi-installed it. Here's how it looks! I know some of you will be chuckling...
As you can see, it matches my sink and countertops beautifully! And, yes, that is a glass of bourbon on the countertop to help celebrate a job completed (for today, at least). 
This post was last edited 03/22/2013 at 14:26 | ||
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Post# 667657 , Reply# 24 3/22/2013 at 14:16 (4,051 days old) by Kenmore71 (Minneapolis, MN) |
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A little closer...
I have a couple of leads on a butcher block top. For right now this top was made from scraps found in the basement. Also, relays have been installed on the water heater and the motor. I have disconnected the heater in the drying duct for now and am only using the fan to "air-dry" the dishes. So far it seems to be working pretty well. Perhaps when I find a slightly newer aluminum (as opposed to galvanized metal) duct I'll play around with heater drying again. Quite honestly in my little galley kitchen that drying element may throw out more heat than I want! 
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Post# 667658 , Reply# 25 3/22/2013 at 14:22 (4,051 days old) by Kenmore71 (Minneapolis, MN) |
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And the improvised "control system"
Again, I have a lead on a switch for this machine but it may be a month or two before that comes to fruition. In the meantime I wired up a little temporary job with off the shelf toggle switches that were already in my toolbox. The left switch is a DPDT switch and is wired to provide "Heavy Soil", "Off", & "Light Soil". The right switch is a SPDT switch that resets the rapid advance timer at the end of the cycle just like opening the door would. If I had wanted to get even fancier, I could have added a 3rd SPST switch that would have turned the "Sani-heat" delay for the final rinse on or off. 
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Post# 667671 , Reply# 26 3/22/2013 at 15:11 (4,051 days old) by Kenmore71 (Minneapolis, MN) |
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Post# 667674 , Reply# 27 3/22/2013 at 15:15 (4,051 days old) by Kenmore71 (Minneapolis, MN) |
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And Heavy Soil which uses 16 gallons.
These were not terribly eco-friendly machines in that regard. This was not the thirstiest of the KA machines, though, the KDS-17 would use 18.9 gallons in it's Soak/Scrub Cycle! Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the nearly 19 gallons that the KDS-17 used was the record for a home dishwasher cycle. Were the GE PotScrubbers that thirsty? 
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Post# 667757 , Reply# 28 3/22/2013 at 22:16 (4,051 days old) by Kenmore71 (Minneapolis, MN) |
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Post# 667825 , Reply# 29 3/23/2013 at 07:25 (4,051 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md) |
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KDS-16 Mark I do love the added switches where the push-button switch used to be, I especially like the little bit of wood-grain around them.
This reminds me of the frist Kenmore BD washer I got when I was 14 that I wanted to fix, it was a 1959 LKM that one of my Mothers friends had given up on and it had timer problems. My Aunt Margret had just replaced her 1955 MOL KM washer and I went over to their house before the Sears guys hulled it away and took about every electrical part off the old washer including the complete wiring harness. I then took the complete PB-Timer assembly out of the 59 LKM installed a piece of 1/4" wood paneling and installed the timer and water temperature controls through the paneling, it worked fine and our family used it that way for a while, so your clever conversion really brings back memories.
I will try to round up the parts you need this weekend and get them shipped, John. | ||
| Post# 667871 , Reply# 30 3/23/2013 at 10:59 (4,051 days old) by mitch (Atlanta) | ||
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Awesome! I love the way you improvised this machine to work! I wish I had the intelligence to come up with what you accomplished with the switches while you are waiting on the parts to surface! Good job and thanks for posting! Mitch | ||
| Post# 667885 , Reply# 31 3/23/2013 at 12:09 (4,051 days old) by barcoboy (Canada) | ||
So what is the difference between the "Heavy Soil" program and "Full Cycle"? The Heavy Soil program looks similar to my KDS-58's Normal Cycle program: 3 pre-rinses, 1 wash, 3 after rinses, and dry. I'd be curious to see the chart for the Full Cycle program Kenmore71 if you wouldn't mind posting it.
Interesting too that the rinse agent dispenser is called on twice in the Heavy Soil program timer chart, for both rinse #2 and rinse #3... were there other KA's that did that as well? | ||
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Post# 667917 , Reply# 32 3/23/2013 at 13:40 (4,050 days old) by Kenmore71 (Minneapolis, MN) |
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As requested...
Here is the cycle sequence for the Full Cycle.
The full cycle on this model only used 2 pre-rinses and 2 after-rinses for a total of 5 fills of water. The Heavy Soil cycle technically did 3 pre-rinses and 3 after-rinses. BUT if you look closely you will notice that the first AND last rinses are only partial-fill rinses. The first pre-rinse only fills for one minute and then immediately drains. It's a purge that to my thinking also serves the double function of something similar to the famous Kelvinator "Magic Minute" by wetting the dishes with what amounts to a double strength detergent solution for about a minute. Then the final rinse is also a partial fill that then goes into 2 minutes of water heating before a minute of final rinsing with nice and hot water. 
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Post# 667968 , Reply# 33 3/23/2013 at 19:55 (4,050 days old) by appnut (TX) |
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Heavy Soil vs. Full Cycle
The difference is the two fills. And both of those are only one timer increment and thus partial fills. that first pre-rinse/wash with the partial fill pretty much wastes the detergent from the open dispenser cup as far as I"m concerned. Heavy soil doesn't buy you any added time during main wash. According to Tomturbomatic, those partial fills pretty much only reach effectively the bottom rack, not much water gets to the top rack. that's why he'd add about another gallon of water on his KAs when using the Sani cycle that used that partial fill so it owuldn't have to heat up a full fill of water. Full Cycle is a better choice in my opinion. Just beig honest. I"m very impressed with your accumen to come up with a working solution until parts arrive. Thus ya get to use and play with the machine.
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Post# 667971 , Reply# 34 3/23/2013 at 20:04 (4,050 days old) by DADoES (TX, U.S. of A.) |
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Post# 674246 , Reply# 35 4/20/2013 at 19:38 (4,022 days old) by Kenmore71 (Minneapolis, MN) |
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Further work on the KDS-16 | ||
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Post# 674247 , Reply# 36 4/20/2013 at 19:40 (4,022 days old) by Kenmore71 (Minneapolis, MN) |
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Post# 674248 , Reply# 37 4/20/2013 at 19:41 (4,022 days old) by Kenmore71 (Minneapolis, MN) |
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Post# 674249 , Reply# 38 4/20/2013 at 19:46 (4,022 days old) by Kenmore71 (Minneapolis, MN) |
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After discovering the INSANE amount of heat this machine produces during the DRY portion of the cycle, I decided that I wanted to be able to control whether or not I got a heated dry, especially in the summer.
SO, I recycled the DPDT toggle switch from above and installed it such that I can have HEATED dry, AIR dry or PASSIVE dry (that would be OFF). Since I didn't want to mar the appearance of the machine from the front, I decided to mount the switch on the underside of the lower access panel. 
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| Post# 674253 , Reply# 39 4/20/2013 at 20:34 (4,022 days old) by rockland1 () | ||
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KDS=16 This was my parents 1st dishwasher. It was great! | ||
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