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Thread Number: 48469
New energy star washers - good or bad? |
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| Post# 702195 , Reply# 1 9/9/2013 at 02:12 (3,880 days old) by arbilab (Ft Worth TX (Ridglea)) | ||
Can't say with certainty. The trend is toward disappointing performance and reliability.
Washers are not a big energy sink to start with. An average 1/2hp washer motor uses 0.5kW for a half hour (with motor efficiency loss considered). At 12c/kWh, costs the staggering sum of 3 cents per load. X 3 loads a week x 4 weeks a month = 36 cents a month for the motor. What little cost the washer extracts is in terms of hot water, so most "energy star" washers claim savings by strangling hot water use. Some will not wash above 100F--just barely adequate to liquefy body soil--no matter where they are set. Most prohibit warm rinse. In cold climates, winter tap cold water will resolidify any remaining soil, guaranteeing it remains on the clothes. Almost all will scrimp on all fills, leaving toploaders to beat laundry to death. Whatever water is saved is worth much less than the cost of replacing shredded clothes. Underfilled frontloaders may not tumble, the clothes just ride the drum around. IOW, "energy star" has resulted in a series of very poor compromises made by monomaniacal bureaucrats knowing nothing about laundry. Knowing how well they do everything else, do you want government doing your wash? With a great deal of research effort and a generous budget it is possible to find a suitable compromise, but most off-the-truck washers today don't work worth a dam unless the "energy star" features are circumvented. JMO. | ||
| Post# 702207 , Reply# 4 9/9/2013 at 04:25 (3,879 days old) by glenfieldmathk1 (Glenfield-Leicester-UK) | ||
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On the new Energy label, that's been around for a few years now - Wash Performance is NOT included. This is because all machines have to wash at A rating - Its just like the law that all machines must have 20C. On the old label, yes Wash performance was included on the scale. Only spin performance is now shown. | ||
| Post# 702226 , Reply# 5 9/9/2013 at 07:20 (3,879 days old) by dj-gabriele () | ||
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This is because all machines have to wash at A rating Exactly, they have such a strict rating that all the machines must fall in the "A" or better range. So it's not necessary anymore to put it in the label | ||
| Post# 702232 , Reply# 6 9/9/2013 at 08:13 (3,879 days old) by candoo () | ||
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So then, can I take it that these same "energy star" machines have selectable cycles that can wash the "old way" with enough water and heat to properly wash a load? | ||
| Post# 702253 , Reply# 8 9/9/2013 at 09:44 (3,879 days old) by pierreandreply4 (St-Bruno de montarville (province of quebec) canada) | ||
it depends if you went a frontloader or a toploader | ||
Post# 702277 , Reply# 10 9/9/2013 at 13:24 (3,879 days old) by henene4  (Heidenheim a.d. Brenz (Germany)) |
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I recognized that washers with a spray system mostly give better results on the energysaving cycles in fact of rinsing, while the washperformens is quite good throughout the line, in my opinion... | ||
| Post# 702329 , Reply# 13 9/9/2013 at 17:42 (3,879 days old) by pierreandreply4 (St-Bruno de montarville (province of quebec) canada) | ||
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the only risk is this
no internal water heater like my 2004 whirlpool duet is that hot water wash on normal casual is that the washer will cooldown the water abit and this also means that water temp might be dumb down like for expemple hot will not be water heater temp warm water will be like cool ect unless you can fine a washer from 1990 and earlier but i do not know much front load that are before the energy star rating
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| Post# 702336 , Reply# 14 9/9/2013 at 18:08 (3,879 days old) by frontloaderfan (Merrimac valley, MA) | ||
"in the states, Canada, Aus etc"
I can't speak for Oz, but in the US, most newer washers, with a few exceptions like Speed Queen/Huebsch (top as well as front loading) use a PITIFULLY small amount of water to "wash" the clothes, no matter what cycle you select. My 2012 Frigidaire FL fills to about three-quarters of an inch of water in the empty (!) drum on the "Normal" cycle and maybe up to two inches on the "Bulky" cycle. Like Pierre's Whirlpool FL, it also has no onboard heater. When the "Hot" temp is selected, the initial fill is with hot tap water but if it needs to add additional water during the first few minutes of the wash cycle, it does so with cold water only, thus dumbing down the "hot" temp to what used to be warm.
I solve this annoying problem by having a two gallon watering can filled with hot water on stand-by. Once the machine has all of it's two cups of wash water in the drum, I dump the hot water in the watering can into the machine via the detergent drawer. Sounds like something out of the century before last, but it's the only way to actually get the clothes truly clean. Our pencil pushers in Washington need to come up with something better than prohibiting modern washing machines from using a decent amount of water in order to save the planet. | ||
| Post# 702343 , Reply# 15 9/9/2013 at 18:40 (3,879 days old) by Washman (o) | ||
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There is an option frontloaderfan for now this can be avoided by getting a SQ top loader. You have far more control over the water fill than on any front loader. | ||
| Post# 702404 , Reply# 17 9/10/2013 at 03:48 (3,879 days old) by arbilab (Ft Worth TX (Ridglea)) | ||
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Miele is one of those 'high budget' options that still leave one a modicum of control over temperature and fill.
Noticing a great many replies from UK/EU where standards are entirely different from North America. No native NA brand includes a heater. All are limited to faucet hot temp--120F-140F--minus the loss in filling a cold tub, and many mix the faucet hot down even further because the government told them to. I do not know the extent to which Canadian standards follow US standards, which best I can tell are the most absurd in the entire world. | ||
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Post# 702406 , Reply# 18 9/10/2013 at 04:39 (3,878 days old) by Frigilux (The Minnesota Prairie) |
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Actually, the only "native North American" brand that doesn't offer an internal water heater is Speed Queen. You have to go into the top-end models of other brands, but heaters are available. Look for Steam, Allergy, or Sanitize cycles. If the machine has one of those, it has a heater.
There are any number of excellent front-load washer options on the market from LG, Frigidaire, Maytag, and Whirlpool. I have a new front-loader and have never, ever had to wash a load twice because it didn't come clean the first time. If you've had a good experience with Miele, then buy a new Miele when the time comes. If you want a traditional top-loader, Speed Queen is the obvious choice; but I wouldn't have one of their front-loaders due to lack of cycle flexibility and lack of a water heater. Advice: Buy a front-loader with an internal heater so you have the option to wash in truly hot water (Allergy cycles around 130 degrees; Sanitize cycles around 150-155 degrees) and use the extra rinse option if you feel rinsing is sub-par. This post was last edited 09/10/2013 at 04:55 | ||
| Post# 702444 , Reply# 20 9/10/2013 at 10:38 (3,878 days old) by pierreandreply4 (St-Bruno de montarville (province of quebec) canada) | ||
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if you look at this maytage front load washer it has an allergen cycle so this means that is has an internal water heater, and so do this whirlpool duet but depending on where you buy the price may vary unless there on sale
www.whirlpool.com/laundry-1/laund... CLICK HERE TO GO TO pierreandreply4's LINK | ||
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Post# 702447 , Reply# 21 9/10/2013 at 10:52 (3,878 days old) by henene4 (Heidenheim a.d. Brenz (Germany)) |
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These heaters mostly only come up if you selected "Extra Hot" or "Sanitize" as temprerature. Except Miele, which tells you in the manual the temperatures in degrees, too. But they only go up to 70°C... | ||
| Post# 702470 , Reply# 22 9/10/2013 at 12:55 (3,878 days old) by frontloaderfan (Merrimac valley, MA) | ||
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Candoo: If you are able, the best thing to replace a Miele with is, IMO, another Miele. Having owned one from about the same time as yours and comparing it with what I have now (not that the Affinity FL is a BAD machine), I'd have to say that you most likely wouldn't be happy with anything else. Most of what is offered here in the US, again in my opinion, doesn't come close to the feel and performance of a Miele. I can't speak for SQ because I've only ever used them at laundromats. I think I would probably buy one if I didn't already have a new machine.
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| Post# 702477 , Reply# 23 9/10/2013 at 14:07 (3,878 days old) by pierreandreply4 (St-Bruno de montarville (province of quebec) canada) | ||
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candoo
candoo trhe best option i would suggest is you look but here is the link to the canadien miele website incase you went to look
CLICK HERE TO GO TO pierreandreply4's LINK | ||
| Post# 702633 , Reply# 24 9/11/2013 at 08:10 (3,877 days old) by candoo () | ||
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Thanks people, for reaffirming my thoughts on the matter. candoo | ||
| Post# 702777 , Reply# 27 9/12/2013 at 01:18 (3,877 days old) by pierreandreply4 (St-Bruno de montarville (province of quebec) canada) | ||
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the choice of a washer depends on how many loads per day you
the choice of a washer depends on how many loads you do per day and the number of cycles you need if you are considering vintage here is a video of a white westinghouse washer in action credit to the original poster of the video and as the old saying go you can be sure if its westing house lol and vintage speedqueens are good as well as these older vintage washers do not have the constraint of the energy star rating on todays washers
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Post# 703243 , Reply# 30 9/14/2013 at 10:36 (3,874 days old) by kb0nes (Burnsville, MN) |
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@tolivac
Was the RFI from the LG washer something that occurred when it was running a cycle or while in standby? I would suspect more interference from a poorly filtered inverter since that is high power. Of course a dirty switcher power supply for the rest of the electronics could cause trouble too. The good thing is that at 7 Mhz it would be easily filtered. Its a high enough frequency that ferrites give lots of isolation impedance, but low enough that it needs the power line to be an antenna. A simple common mode choke on the power cord would all but eliminate it. The problems with RFI both to and from electronics isn't a problem with the electronics themselves, its a problem of greed. Both the consumer demanding low cost and the manufacturer demanding high profits lead to the elimination of effective filtering. By and large the manufacturers can get away with this since such a small percentage of consumers are likely to experience problems. Add to this that the FCC is now a paper tiger and enforcement is a bit of a joke (more money and greed issues I'm sure). Personally I like electronics, perhaps to some extent because I understand them and can fix them. I like the features and functionality they give. Yes it is true that mechanical timers have minimal issues with RFI, but I don't really want to return to the olden days. An old wash board and tub don't have issue with RFI either... As for durability of electronics in appliance controls the issue is the same, greed kills it. Properly designed electronic controls should be as reliable as anything mechanical but proper design costs money. Heck in the cost cut world of today I bet the mechanical timers might well be less reliable then vintage ones too. | ||
| Post# 703245 , Reply# 31 9/14/2013 at 10:48 (3,874 days old) by pierreandreply4 (St-Bruno de montarville (province of quebec) canada) | ||
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if you look at my suet set they are 2004 models Post# 702329 , Reply# 13 the controls are semi electronics as i have to rotate the center dial to the cycle i need the only trouble is since they are in the main bathroom on the second floor the humidety of the bathroom or cold air since they are behind an outside wall can lead that the dryer sensor can take a bit more time to detec wet clothes but i can live with this since they are on there 10 year of use
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| Post# 703247 , Reply# 32 9/14/2013 at 11:35 (3,874 days old) by mark_wpduet (Lexington KY) | ||
My duet set is on it's | ||
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Post# 703638 , Reply# 34 9/17/2013 at 03:15 (3,872 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There“s a Lady on Stage) |
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Internal heaters on consumer front loaders sold in the USA all suffer from the same limitations; they run on 120v/15amp service. That limits the total heating power to <1500watts. That is not enough power to bring even the thimble full of water used by these modern front loaders anywhere near very hot to boiling, especially of one wishes to start with tap cold water. Well it probably can happen but with a very long time period. By the time washer reached the temp laundry likely is already clean from being beating about for so long.
Regarding *computer* and or electronic controlled washing machines, one respectfully disagrees with the above posts. Can see with a top loading washing machine having a central beater such things being considered not worth bothering with, however am here to tell you on front loaders it makes a world of difference. For years one swore up and down and refused to budge away from my older mechanical partially electronic controlled Miele washer, then came the AEG and my eyes were opened. The AEG (and one supposes other modern computer controlled front loaders) are simply better machines all way round in many aspects. The ability of these computer controlled machines to monitor various conditions including what is going on inside the drum is truly amazing. No where is this more apparent than in spin cycles. The Miele will only do a set number of balance attempts; if things can be distributed properly well enough, but if they cannot tough cheese as the machine *will* go into spin. This often leads to out of balance loads banging, clanging and in some cases causing machines to leap about. Not so with the AEG. This machine monitors what is going on and if the load isn't balanced it will vary rotation rhythm and such to get the load where it needs to be. If for some reason the AEG cannot and though it hasn't happened to us personally, the machine will drop the spin speed to a level that can be handled with conditions on the ground. The other great thing about computer controlled AEG and other washers is the ability to match what is going on with the pump versus spinning. My Miele will slow down spinning to cope with heavy water extraction (say if one is laundering very absorbent loads such as terry toweling), but if the timer times out before it can ramp up to full spin speed for the proper amount of time, again tough cheese. With the AEG OTOH machine will slow the drum to allow heavy amounts of water to drain, but it also will vary spin speeds and prolong the cycle until the required extraction is completed. | ||
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Post# 703654 , Reply# 35 9/17/2013 at 07:09 (3,871 days old) by Frigilux (The Minnesota Prairie) |
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I agree with your assessment of the value of electronic controls for front-loaders, Launderess.
The pump on my Frigidaire shuts off when it senses little or no water flowing through it. This is great during balancing protocols (which are virtually silent) and the final spin, which is noticeably quieter when the pump shuts off. It kicks back in during deceleration at the end of the final spin to drain any accumulated water. The fill sensor does a great job of matching water level to load size, unlike my older front-loaders, where small loads simply bobbed around in the excessive amount of water, rather than doing the lift / drop. Frankly, I think more of the AW crowd would appreciate electronically-controlled machines if the quality of said electronics was better. Constant reports of frequently-replaced motherboards and flimsy control pads gone bad do nothing to endear them to our savvy members. | ||
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Post# 703657 , Reply# 36 9/17/2013 at 10:09 (3,871 days old) by kb0nes (Burnsville, MN) |
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"frequently-replaced motherboards and flimsy control pads"
Eugene, Indeed the manufacturers are destroying their illusion of quality with problems, especially with the people that pay attention. I think a fair amount of the failures are from the tactile touch pads themselves. These are a pretty low cost and low reliability way to create a keypad. And they don't respond well to environmental issues like moisture and humidity. Unlike the solid state electronics which are quite immune to moisture. Eventually they will move to capacitive touch panels (like on a smart phone), these will be a lot more reliable. The days of high quality discrete mechanical switches are over for appliances due to cost. Even high end industrial machines are moving away from discrete switches to tough screens due to cost, versatility and reliability. The other issue I am suspicious of is that service companies may simply "shotgun" trouble shoot a machine by replacing the main board. Technicians need to be trained enough not to waste their customers time and money by not knowing how to repair a machine properly. Pity we don't have an ODBII communication standard for appliances to aid troubleshooting. Its equally sad that the electronic main boards aren't repaired when they are swapped out. The failures are often either power supply related or one of the interface transistors or relays which are easily fixed. Of course repairing the board could cost as much or more then a new one. The manufacturers and parts retailers are doing well selling the replacement boards :( | ||
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Post# 703680 , Reply# 39 9/17/2013 at 13:44 (3,871 days old) by logixx (Germany) |
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Suds-Saver Bosch dishwashers in Europe already do this, as well as Whirlpool ones. KtchenAid has or will release a model in the US.
www.consumerreports.org/cro/news/... | ||
| Post# 703698 , Reply# 40 9/17/2013 at 16:03 (3,871 days old) by mrb627 (Buford, GA) | ||
Suds Saving Pedestal | ||
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Post# 703700 , Reply# 41 9/17/2013 at 16:20 (3,871 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There“s a Lady on Stage) |
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Or, Simply Follow Commercial Dishwasher's | ||
| Post# 703704 , Reply# 42 9/17/2013 at 16:59 (3,871 days old) by mark_wpduet (Lexington KY) | ||
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110 V limitations
So is the dishwasher..and it gets hot.
At first, I was very surprised how hot my Duet got on sanitary, but the entire outside of the machine feels like a dishwasher that's been running over an hour when it's doing the sanitary cycle......which, incidentally, I've been using a lot lately for all my whites and sheets | ||
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Post# 703803 , Reply# 43 9/18/2013 at 01:26 (3,871 days old) by logixx (Germany) |
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It's actually the final rinse water that is saved.
Pedestals should be used in a different way? Pipe: CLICK HERE TO GO TO logixx's LINK | ||
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Post# 703832 , Reply# 44 9/18/2013 at 07:07 (3,870 days old) by Frigilux (The Minnesota Prairie) |
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PassatDoc-- The change in model numbers you referenced coincided with lengthened wash times for certain cycles, notably the Normal cycle, which is used by Consumer Reports for testing purposes. They test all washers using the heaviest soil option available with the Normal cycle. When choosing the heaviest soil option, wash time is nearly doubled compared to the 2010 machine I have. The length of a complete cycle went from around 50 minutes to 80. That took the Frigidaire's cleaning score from "Good" to "Excellent". Water consumption was not increased. The machine retains its Tier III Energy Star rating, which is the highest Energy Star designation.
Don't get me started on all the flaws with the way Energy Star assesses water and energy use for kitchen and laundry appliances. Their protocols are beginning to improve, mostly due to Consumer Reports' constant (and valid) criticism of their assessment methodology. CR's water/energy-use assessments are grounded in real-world use. I pay no attention to the yellow Energy Star sticker on any appliance I purchase---except to use it for the utility rebate, of course! logixx-- Thanks for the link to Whirlpool's proposed heat pump-coupled washer/dryer pair. I'll bet AW member Jamie (Pulsator), who works for Whirlpool, has all kinds of inside information on what's to come concerning household appliances. Unfortunately, he can't share much of it with us. :( | ||
| Post# 705191 , Reply# 46 9/24/2013 at 21:37 (3,864 days old) by kenmorewasher10 () | ||
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bad they are really bad and it doesn't fill up to where you see the water fill up to the top | ||
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