Thread Number: 49252
Talk to me about quality
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Post# 712757   11/2/2013 at 10:41 (3,799 days old) by pulltostart (Mobile, AL)        

pulltostart's profile picture

Looking for all opinions here.  I'm just curious about the issue of quality of this version of GE washers.  I know that in general these post-filter flo models are routinely trashed here, but what are the real quality issues?  Too much plastic?  Bad transmission/suspension design?  Overall lack of durability?  I did purchase a pair of these new in 1998 and used them for about 2 years without any problems (not a very difficut "test") then moved and sold them.

 

Opinions and/or experiences anyone?

 

lawrence





Post# 712758 , Reply# 1   11/2/2013 at 10:43 (3,799 days old) by DirectDriveDave ()        

No experience from me, but the most common I have heard are leaks or transmission failures. 


Post# 712780 , Reply# 2   11/2/2013 at 13:29 (3,799 days old) by YoGiTuNeS (New Jersey)        

yogitunes's profile picture
tranny failures, and a real tinny feel to the metal....as cheap as they could get..


but at the same time, there are people who have luck with them.....my preference would be the Hydrowave...


Post# 712785 , Reply# 3   11/2/2013 at 14:05 (3,799 days old) by Lightedcontrols ()        
The dryer

The dryer has the newer (more expensive) mica heaters in it. They are more expensive to replace and I've been replacing LOTS of them. The washers suffer mostly from transmission problems and burnt contacts at the motor.

Post# 712791 , Reply# 4   11/2/2013 at 14:39 (3,799 days old) by cfz2882 (Belle Fourche,SD)        
hydrowave

I have a 2009 3.2(fluted plastic tub,larger versions have SS tub)hydrowave and it has been good so far,though I hear the motor inverter is known to fail sometimes.On the plus side this washer does wash well,is quiet while agitating,holds a lot of laundry even though it is the "small"version and handles imbalanced loads better than most of my "vintage"machines.The drain pump,a "wet rotor"magnetic type"is quite loud.

Post# 712802 , Reply# 5   11/2/2013 at 15:50 (3,799 days old) by golittlesport (California)        
washer tranny a weak spot

golittlesport's profile picture
My mom got a matched set of these when that design first came out, about 15 years ago. She only does about three loads of laundry a week and takes very good care of her stuff. The washer transmission went out after about six years of light use. It was too expensive to replace and the repair guy recommended she just junk it and get a new machine. She got a new Kenmore Direct Drive top load washer to replace it that is still running. The GE dryer she still has. She replaced the motor on it last year.

Post# 712813 , Reply# 6   11/2/2013 at 16:44 (3,799 days old) by Washman (o)        
directdrivedave nailed it

and that is precisely what happened to me. Tub seal gave up the ghost, allowed water to leak into the tranny and voila! Bad tranny. Cost to replace put me with spittin' distance of a new SQ top loader

In fact, your TL is/was the twin to mine. I got mine at Ward's when I moved to my present domicile in April of 1999. I was the only user and for 14 years, washing approximately 2 loads a week, it ran like a champ albeit noisily. It cleaned well and was easy to use. It had a dumbed down slightly warm wash (all with cold rinse) but it did the job.

That being said, I have my doubts it would have lasted as long if used in the so-called normal family setup, ie mommy, daddy, and 3-4 snot nosed kids in tow.

What is scary is this:
Warranty on my 1999 made unit: 2 years whole machine, lifetime on the plastic inner/outer tub, 10 year warranty on the steel drive tranny.

Today: 1 year. Period. No matter if you buy the Algore sanctioned HE or FL or sorta kinda old school TL, you get 1 year. If warranty length reflects any sort of confidence, then GE must not have much.

In summary, someone would have to PAY me to use one of these five star piles of junk. That includes Whiltag, anything made my WCI aka Electrolux, Samsung, LG, Kennmore.


CLICK HERE TO GO TO Washman's LINK


Post# 712823 , Reply# 7   11/2/2013 at 18:07 (3,799 days old) by chetlaham (United States)        
The WORST...

chetlaham's profile picture

Washers ever built hands down no exceptions. Criminally crappy bar none. WCI and frigidaires were better than these. And that was of course my opinion before the fact one of these actually half way exploded on me.

 

The newer ones are slightly better, but the ones between 1997 and 2005 were the worst offenders. Ive used a few of theses and had to fix many. The agitation is crazy fast with very short strokes along with sharp slanted agitator vanes, the result would be clothes would sit and not move while those right next to the agitator would get torn up. Clothes always came out partially clean and in a twisted ball. In agitation the whole inner and outer tub shakes back and forth which would cause the the suspension rod sockets to screech. On a big enough load the whole cabinet would try and twist with it. First time I saw it I thought the whole washer was about to implode. The frequent twisting would often cause the tubs straps to brake on these (never experienced it personally though) and thus in spin the basket would hit the sides of the cabinet. The plastic inner basket had rectangular meshed reinforcements on the other side which would trap water and dirt. Even with lots of soap and care I would often find black pieces of mildew floating in the water, it would just collect on the reinforcements and break off in the wash. Till then I had never seen nor expected such micro biological growth machine. Of the wash baskets Ive pulled out of them and looked at most had scum build up that was far more than any other top loader Ive ever seen, I would only see such build up years latter on improperly used front loads and low water top loads. Even then those machines didn't have those mesh reinforcements.

 

That aside everything else is cheap and poorly thought out. The pump started to seize up on mine only after a year, and it was then I learned these are as far away as spin drain friendly as one can get. The pressure switch on theses prevents the machine from spinning on a full tub full of water but at the half way point when it resets the machine will spin. In my case when it did reset the water was pushed up and over the overflow tube. Something like 6 gallons got pushed out, on a second floor laundry room. And since we are on the subject if the pump doesn't give you trouble the connection from it to the back of the cabinet transitions to a narrow rectangular square which is prone to plugging up. The timer also runs with the lid open as well as the drain pump, kept rediscovering that gift when trying to soak clothes.

 

I was lucky in the fact that an apartment complex nearby at the time had over 1000 units all with these types of washers. The dumping area  was full of them as the maintenance would just replace them when they would act up, some only a years old. Most were about 3 to 4 years old. Often the transmissions on the were seize up, not a surprise considering how small and over worked it is. The timers were all plastic and if they made a conductive plastic I swear it would be used in them too. On the older models those were usually ok but Ive found on the later versions of them the timers would actually break somewhere be it the shaft, seems, contacts ect. Ive seen nearly all failure modes on these machines, leaking seals, seized pumps, broken clutches, stripped drive blocks, seized brakes, weak breaks (tub partially spins in agitation), corroded bearings, snapped straps, balance rings cracking, timer contacts burning up, foul smells from mildew growth... the list goes on and these are only one 3 to 5 year old machines. About the only part I could say held up in them and functioned like it should was the water valve and drive belt. Everything else was engineered into oblivion to being cheap and thin as physics would allow.  

 

 My opinion was sealed when I was washing pillows in one of them. Apparently certain load unbalances can reach a type of resonant frequency or something... thinking about it Im not kidding. Not the brightest move washing pillows in a top load , but Ive done it many times in other washers without issue. One of the pillows drifted to the other side with the other so it turned into 2 against one out of 3. Come spin I thought the house was caving into the basement. It was the worst sound I heard a washer make. After killing power to it I find the front panel blown off the side ones warped with the outer plastic tub full of cracks from bashing itself into the cabinet. I wish I took pics but that was 9 years ago. A similar thing took place in a filter flo before that but the machine handle it well just nudging itself forward.  

 

These machines in a nut shell are nothing more than disposable cigarette lighters. Long rant I know, but being a Maytag and Unimatic Frigidaire fan; when one uses a GE washer like these you see everything that a washer should not be. Only reason I would up as one of these as a daily driver was a tight budget at the time but you live and learn I guess.       


Post# 712827 , Reply# 8   11/2/2013 at 18:51 (3,799 days old) by Washman (o)        
There's a youtube vid

out there somewhere where a guy shows how one of the new HE units apparently spun out of control and bent the front suspension support arm. He shows the machine with the front panel off and the whole front suspension is sagging allowing the two tabs on the motor assembly to drop and hit the bottom support. It would squeak like a mouse each time the mode shifter kicked in. You can also see a good look at the ungodly cheap innards of the unit.

It was pretty sad to see mighty GE, the maker of the GE90, foist such poorly made junk on the market. One can only hope with their "investment" in USA based manufacturing, that they can offer up better quality.

Like I stated before, they also backslid to a one year warranty. I supposed from a beancounter perspective, it makes sense. But does it add value to the customer experience? I think not.


Post# 712829 , Reply# 9   11/2/2013 at 18:56 (3,799 days old) by DirectDriveDave ()        

Here is said video



CLICK HERE TO GO TO DirectDriveDave's LINK

Post# 712831 , Reply# 10   11/2/2013 at 18:59 (3,799 days old) by Washman (o)        
That's it DDD

I feel for the guy, I really do.

Post# 712849 , Reply# 11   11/2/2013 at 20:11 (3,799 days old) by mrb627 (Buford, GA)        
You Know...

mrb627's profile picture

As bad as we all proclaim that these machines are, there are thousands out there that will run for years without so much as a hiccup.  Look at some of the most trouble prone machines of the 70's and 80's that can still be found on Craigslist or eBay.

 

Malcolm


Post# 712851 , Reply# 12   11/2/2013 at 20:17 (3,799 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md)        
GE Top Loading Post Filter-Flow Models

combo52's profile picture

Are great performers, they wash very well handle out-of -balance loads very well and drain and RINSE much better, BUT they do have serious durability issues, main problem areas are main seals and transmission problems.

 

All that said I would consider having one of these GEs in my home laundry because of their great performance and I would not have a GE FF in my home laundry, those will stay in the museum for all to enjoy when visiting.

 

GE dryers are likewise Great performers since 1995 [ I am talking about the big Canadian built dryers not the Frigidaire built junk ] BUT they to have SERIOUS durability issues for heavy users, and life spans approximately 1/2 of WP built dryers.


Post# 712936 , Reply# 13   11/3/2013 at 09:02 (3,798 days old) by sambootoo (Moody, AL)        

We bought one of these new in 2004 (wife's choice) and have never had any repairs. Washed for a family of 4 at the time, (has FINALLY dwindled to just wife and me!!!!) It gets the job done, but you are right, it does look, feel, and sound cheap. The timer motor is almost as loud as the washer is. There is a clunking sound during agitation that is worse than the Whirlpools. There is rust starting to form underneath the top panel (you can see little flakes on top of the tub ring.) We seldom use bleach and always leave the top open after use. I secretly can't wait for something to happen to this washer as I have a true Maytag and a Speed Queen waiting to be put into service! Sister and niece both had one that the bearings went out In the motors. For a while, they continued to work although quite noisily. Eventually, the motor would just hum. Have seen 1 that the whole side of the transmission broke off. Another that the (LGS??) spring broke, allowing it to spin during wash and flood the room. I have one now that was given to me because it's leaking oil into the wash, found that there's lots of play in the agitator shaft.

Post# 712955 , Reply# 14   11/3/2013 at 11:16 (3,798 days old) by LLMaytag (Southern California)        
GE Topload

llmaytag's profile picture
A few days ago I was in a Home Depot purchasing a sink for my new home, and despite having made the decision to get a SQ washer/dryer, I took a few moments before leaving to browse the washers/dryers and dishwashers. I saw a GE top loader that looked somewhat traditional. However, looking at the the price, and the "power rinse option" on the console which was noted as "use only with liquid fabric softener," I thought, "why would I consider this over the SQ?" It's nearly the same price as the AWN542, no 2nd rinse option, and apparently you the only way to get a full deep rinse is to select the "power rinse" option! Silly!

Next, I looked at the dishwashers. I currently have what is probably the last non-talltub Whirlpool model and it works great, and when you have a high-temp wash, or Pots & Pan, it still gives two full rinses instead of a "purge" and one rinse. If I could I'd get another for the new place, but the new Whirlpools look so cheap! Toy-like wash arms! Has anyone used one of these yet?


Post# 712964 , Reply# 15   11/3/2013 at 11:39 (3,798 days old) by frontloaderfan (Merrimac valley, MA)        
Not sure if this is what you're asking..

frontloaderfan's profile picture
but I just purchased a new portable Whirlpool DW in July. It has an all-plastic interior, which I am not a fan of, but it seems to do very well on pots & pans as well as my stainless steel bakeware, glassware and Kitchenaid mixer bowls. Not sure what a "tall tub" is (forgive my ignorance) but it looks the same dimensionally on the inside as any other DW. It's relatively quiet and I would be lost without it. Hope this helps...

Post# 712978 , Reply# 16   11/3/2013 at 13:55 (3,798 days old) by thefixer ()        

I have an 02 model and have replaced the lower bearing in the transmission and repaired a fautly motor switch, but other than that, it has been fine. The bearing was $10 and switch repair didn't cost anything.

A broken LGS cannot cause spin during wash. In fact, a broken LGS will not allow spin at all. You can remove the spring and it will agitate just fine but will never spin. With broken spring or without the spring, it will agitate in both agitate or spin modes.


Post# 712986 , Reply# 17   11/3/2013 at 14:57 (3,798 days old) by pierreandreply4 (St-Bruno de montarville (province of quebec) canada)        
anything good about this model?

pierreandreply4's profile picture
anything good about this model because this is the model i am considering as my next daily driver with power rinse with matching electric dryer white of course

Post# 712992 , Reply# 18   11/3/2013 at 15:35 (3,798 days old) by Washman (o)        
pierreandreply4 Those are the same GE

pretty much discussed in this thread. You pay your money, you take your chances.

CLICK HERE TO GO TO Washman's LINK


Post# 713111 , Reply# 19   11/4/2013 at 10:59 (3,797 days old) by pulltostart (Mobile, AL)        
All,

pulltostart's profile picture

Thanks for the information, experiences and opinions.  While none of this surprises me, I guess, it is very disappointing to hear of the general (lack of ) quality in GE's products.  So much for "durable goods"?  It is interesting to hear of examples of long life and no problems vs. total disaster stories and short lifes.  I think that only reinforces the non-quality of the product; how long a particular product lasts has nothing to do with how well it was manufactured, it's just a crap shoot.

 

lawrence


Post# 713193 , Reply# 20   11/4/2013 at 16:55 (3,797 days old) by chetlaham (United States)        
GE Quality

chetlaham's profile picture

GE made very durable machines back in the past that rivaled Whirlpool. In the 70s and 80s their washers and dryers peaked in longevity and durability. Their dishwashers were never good at cleaning, however I don't think anyone can argue they were not  built like tanks, especially the porcelain steel coated ones dishwasher tubs. But come the late 80s GE's appliance business started going gradually down hill in quality. Around 1995 when the filter flos were being phased out my jaw hit the floor on the sales floor; I knew GE would never be the same after that. Granted today Whirlpool is getting closer to GE in terms of build quality, but I still hear Whirlpool has better performing machines than GE. Same with longevity, but still anything today will not last as long as say 15 years ago.

 

If you are looking for a new washer go with Speed Queen over anything else. They are the only washer left on the market that uses durable long proven technology, No strings attached. A bit pricier yes, but Id rather spend 750 on a Speed Queen that will last 15, 20 even 25 years than a LG front loader that will only go 5 years on average. Maybe 7 if  you are lucky, but not worth it IMO.


Post# 713376 , Reply# 21   11/5/2013 at 15:22 (3,796 days old) by lotsosudz (Sacramento, CA)        
No Problems Here!

lotsosudz's profile picture
I own a 2001 Profile Washer and Dryer. There are three of us in the house, one being a 12 year old. I bought it used from a guy I worked with, who had three boys, and his wife and himself. I bought it in 2004, and it has certainly been put through it's paces. I average 5-7 loads weekly, and 10-12 bi-monthly. It has never faltered once, and never has had a single repair. I think a lot of luck with these units, has to do with individuals that own them. Lets face it, no brand will last, if regularly abused. The video of the hydrowave unit, was washing 3 blankets at once. Depending on size of these blankets, could be grossly overloaded. Again, I think most of us, on this site, use a lot more savvy, when washing, then the general public. Just Say'in !
Hugs,
David


Post# 713417 , Reply# 22   11/5/2013 at 18:28 (3,796 days old) by paulg (My sweet home... Chicago)        
Tranny failed here

paulg's profile picture
My Mom bought that unit. Unit was still under trans warranty when she passed too.
I was doing laundry at the house when the trans failed.
The GE repairman came out, diagnosed a bad trans but wouldn't honor the warranty unless I could pony up the bill-of-sale.
As Mom had just passed and I had the WHOLE estate to deal with and totally frustrated, I went to the local Maytag dealer and said "if you can deliver a new washer on Monday I will buy it NOW!" And he said, "I WILL deliver a washer on Monday".
And I bought a Maytag.
The washer went with the house.
The deliverymen could not believe that the unit was junk. He thought the unit was new... and it virtually was.


Post# 713452 , Reply# 23   11/5/2013 at 22:33 (3,796 days old) by KenmoreBD (Mass, usa )        
GE, Quality

Well My family is new to Ge Washers, my mother got one in 2010, I got one last November. They are both hydrowave. It seems Ge tried to fix the issues in quality control. They boast that the hydrowaves washers being simple are more reliable.
My 2cents

1.They do clean, as do the older post filter flows In fact when you trick it to do a full fill it chugs away at the load.
2.Never goes off balance even with odd loads.
3.Wicked quiet, you cant tell its running at some points.
4.Everything comes out clean.

Quality?????
1.It feels cheap, the knobs will click in in -between settings.
2.Mode Shifter( the thing that locks the tub and auger together for spin is cheap and prone to break)
also makes a loud pop that although normal sound alarming.
3.The tub will try to index with big load makes a thumping noise(not good for the cheap mode shifter???????)
4. Who knows how cheap the control board is, or who makes it for ge.





Post# 713516 , Reply# 24   11/6/2013 at 09:56 (3,795 days old) by Iheartmaytag (Wichita, Kansas)        

iheartmaytag's profile picture
GE used to be the best. There was a time when my mother would not own anything that did not have GE written on it.

My brother, sister-in-law and two small children in diapers lived with us at one time the Filter-flo was doing 8-10 loads of clothes a day. Yes I said day. That machine ran for 18 years never a repair, we sold it to some friends after we moved to a new house and they continued to use that machine for another 10 years until they decided they wanted, not needed new machines.

I still beg the differ on GE's dishwashers. In the 70s and 80s the top rated machines on the market were GE. They were noisy, but they could move the water, never had a problem with them cleaning.

In the 90s GE lost interest in their home appliance division and they began being referred to as builder grade. If you could get two to three years out of a dishwasher you were doing well, but they were cheap so apartment complexes and house flippers loved them.

Now I do believe GE is trying to remember where their roots were and are improving their quality. As I have said in previous posts, I just purchased a GE range and have been very happy with the performance. I can't attest to durability as it is only eight months old.

If GE does as they are promising in the press, and brings their manufacturing back home (meaning not in China); I think they will still be contenders in the home appliance arena.






Post# 872004 , Reply# 25   3/12/2016 at 05:23 (2,938 days old) by GELaundry4ever (Nacogdoches, TX, USA)        
I still have mine.

I have a matching set of these and they're 16 years old without any problems.

Post# 872938 , Reply# 26   3/16/2016 at 22:02 (2,934 days old) by mark_wpduet (Lexington KY)        
It was April 1997

mark_wpduet's profile picture
and we needed a new washer and we ALMOST got one of these but ended up getting a Whirlpool made Kenmore instead. So glad we did. I remember liking the looks of them at the time. But a friend who was with me said, do not get a GE.

Post# 872942 , Reply# 27   3/16/2016 at 22:15 (2,934 days old) by mark_wpduet (Lexington KY)        
Sorry for the double post but I forgot

mark_wpduet's profile picture
to ask something. I know back last year the DOJ halted the sell of GE to Electrolux. Whatever happened with that? I just tried to Google it and browsing around all I can find is old news. The latest thing I could find is they are closing a deal on a sell this year to Haier from China.

Post# 872946 , Reply# 28   3/16/2016 at 23:15 (2,934 days old) by Johnb300m (Chicago)        
GE to Haier

johnb300m's profile picture
Yup Mark. As far as I know, that deal is still in the works. :/

Post# 872947 , Reply# 29   3/16/2016 at 23:18 (2,934 days old) by stricklybojack (South Hams Devon UK)        

stricklybojack's profile picture
.
GE Appliance was sold to Haier.


CLICK HERE TO GO TO stricklybojack's LINK


Post# 872954 , Reply# 30   3/17/2016 at 00:32 (2,934 days old) by chetlaham (United States)        

chetlaham's profile picture
So wait, what will happen to GE's new appliances? Will Heir now make Heir badged appliances with GE's design or will Monogram, Cafe, Hotpoint ect now contain Heir parts? I dont like this one bit.

Post# 872963 , Reply# 31   3/17/2016 at 05:41 (2,933 days old) by vacerator (Macomb, Michigan)        
I guess roll

with the punches then, and keep old appliances working as long as possible.

Post# 873012 , Reply# 32   3/17/2016 at 12:35 (2,933 days old) by johnb300m (Chicago)        

johnb300m's profile picture
From personal experiences of mergers, though none this large...I have to imagine GEA in Louisville will be untouched for at least a year.
They have a large, formidable staff of engineers, marketers, salesfolk, test/QA technicians and a slew of manufacturing personnel at their FIVE plants.
I imagine Haier will leverage those resources.
However, I think we all know that there will be "synergies" and "streamlining" realized over time....as what these deals are usually all about. :/


Post# 873022 , Reply# 33   3/17/2016 at 15:21 (2,933 days old) by chetlaham (United States)        

chetlaham's profile picture
Id rather see Haier keep the GE designs rather then having their own design take over. Though IMO it will be a little of both.

Post# 873047 , Reply# 34   3/17/2016 at 17:18 (2,933 days old) by joeypete (Concord, NH)        

joeypete's profile picture
GE has a huge market share in North America. Haier would be stupid to do anything to change that, aside from making the products better.

But the acquisition hasn't been finalized nor approved by the DOJ yet, so the jury is still out.


Post# 873095 , Reply# 35   3/18/2016 at 00:52 (2,933 days old) by mark_wpduet (Lexington KY)        
I just realized

mark_wpduet's profile picture
I typed sell instead of sale. LOL

anyway, if they halted the sale of the lux buyout, due to it causes less competition and higher prices, why would this by any different? One is allowed and the other isn't? Perhaps because Haier is smaller? I dunno


Post# 873104 , Reply# 36   3/18/2016 at 06:04 (2,932 days old) by vacerator (Macomb, Michigan)        
GE has been

trying to sell for several years now.
Are they rebuilding the burned down parts warehouse at Appliance Park?
If not, this may be a sign of things to come. From Haier, and or China?
Maybe not, because Haier is known for low end models.
They'd be smart to keep GE designs for the higher end market share.
Esepcially the cooking products, and dishwashers. They are well made and good performers.
Just as China now owns Volvo, they have not closed the Goteberg Sweden plants, nor cheapened the vehicles. They are even looking for a US plant location.


Post# 873108 , Reply# 37   3/18/2016 at 06:46 (2,932 days old) by mrb627 (Buford, GA)        
Off Topic: China now owns Volvo

mrb627's profile picture
I actually believe the Volvo's have gotten better since the China acquisition.
The updated XC90 is amazing!

Malcolm


Post# 873113 , Reply# 38   3/18/2016 at 07:06 (2,932 days old) by vacerator (Macomb, Michigan)        
Yes Malcom!

I also like the XC90, but it's out of my budget. I drive less than 12,000 miles per year now. All I need is a Focus or something.
I do know that Volvo parts and service are expensive also.


Post# 873231 , Reply# 39   3/18/2016 at 20:26 (2,932 days old) by jp10558 (Southern Tier, NY, USA)        

You know, made in China doesn't always have to mean crap anymore. I think it's the same as Japan was 30-40 years ago, starting to transition to decent products. Lenovo is an example, they've mostly kept the Think branded lines intact and high quality. I'm hoping like hell they do the same with the IBM System X stuff they just bought.

I've also noticed some compelling tablets and phones from Chinese brands, they just don't fly because there's no payment plans, you have to pay up front vs the buy on installments from the cell phone company here. The phones that is, the tablets can be quite nice if you know what you're doing buying them.


Post# 873302 , Reply# 40   3/19/2016 at 07:17 (2,931 days old) by askolover (South of Nash Vegas, TN)        
I read

askolover's profile picture

The new Buick Envision that's coming will be built in China too.  They may be ok cars, but they will have to be out for a few years to show me quality and reliability first.  The Buick Encore (and Chevy Trax) is made in Korea by GM Daewoo.   


Post# 873454 , Reply# 41   3/20/2016 at 08:11 (2,930 days old) by vacerator (Macomb, Michigan)        
Yes, Greg,

and the Chevy Sonic assembled in Lake Orion Mi. is the same Daewoo platform as well.


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