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Thread Number: 49769
Powder vs. liquid detergent |
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| Post# 719013 12/3/2013 at 13:41 (3,788 days old) by frontloaderfan (Merrimac valley, MA) | ||
In the thread about the failed LG spider, someone raised a very interesting question which I myself know little to nothing about. Since I do not want to make myself guilty of threadjacking, I'm starting a new thread:
What are the arguments against liquid detergent as far as how they can adversely affect corrosion? I have been using Tide HE liquid in my front loader since I've had it, since I'm not a fan of the el cheapo store brands. When I lived in Germany, I always used either Persil or Frosch powder detergent and never had any complaints at all. I would again use Persil here but have never really seen it anywhere for sale and don't want to pay $ 50.00 a box for it. I should also add that I wash my whites in (truly) hot water thanks to a modification that our own Martin told me about. I use a small amount of Oxyclean and bleach with the whites and also Downy FS...I run a clean cycle about once a month with either Affresh or bleach. | ||
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| Post# 719068 , Reply# 2 12/3/2013 at 18:22 (3,788 days old) by pierreandreply4 (St-Bruno de montarville (province of quebec) canada) | ||
wrong liquid detergent is the same as powder detergent and in my opinion powerder detergent are not made for fl washer all new washers of today requires the use of a good low suds detergent and i saw the lg thread with the correded sipder it strengethen my toughs of going back to a good old fashion topload washer
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| Post# 719083 , Reply# 3 12/3/2013 at 20:14 (3,788 days old) by Mich (Hells Kitchen - New York) | ||
Sodium Hypochlorite & Sodium Percabonate DO NOT MIX. I repeat, Clorox Bleach & Oxyclean. Should not be mixed under any circumstances. I read somewhere, that there is a possibility of Mustard Gas (very toxic) forming, when mixed.
The reasoning, is Oxy-Clean, breaks down into a form of Hydrogen Peroxide, and Clorox breaks down into Chlorine. When mixed, the oxygen attempts to kill off the chlorine, but the chlorine is much stronger, and they just collide, and useually the Chlorine dies off and the Oxygen is wasted. However, in some circumstances, during the attempt by oxygen to kill off chlorine, an acid is produced causing a dangerous gas to form.
In other words when mixed, you get no whitening effect, whatsoever, and you put yourself at risk, with harmful fumes.
Be safe out there,
Mich | ||
| Post# 719136 , Reply# 4 12/4/2013 at 00:47 (3,788 days old) by arbilab (Ft Worth TX (Ridglea)) | ||
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| Post# 719142 , Reply# 5 12/4/2013 at 02:24 (3,788 days old) by mark_wpduet (Lexington KY) | ||
Back in early 2005
when I first got my Duet front load washer, I did a lot of reading on Gardenweb forum. I remember reading several times that powder was better, so pretty much since day 1, I've used Either Sears HE powder, Tide HE, and most of all Gain HE powder, with HOT water and chlorine bleach used in whites. Doing 4 loads per weak, I always do the whites LAST (not sure why, I just always have). Washer still works great but who knows?? So many people probably use liquids and do not have problems either.
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| Post# 719157 , Reply# 7 12/4/2013 at 04:13 (3,788 days old) by AquaCycle (West Yorkshire, UK) | ||
It's a little different in Europe.
I know in the US, one would buy a detergent plus additional stain removers/bleaching agents to add in to loads that require it. Over here, all you need is a good detergent. Biological and non-biological washing powders (excluding colour detergent) both contain oxygen based bleaching agents for hygiene reasons, stain removal and to keep whites looking bright. There are NO washing liquids over here that contain oxygen based bleaching agents as these are unstable in liquid form. A good biological powder containing enzymes and oxygen based bleaching agents is all you would ever really need to remove stains. In my experience, liquids are fine for lightly soiled clothes, but for anything that's stained or anything where hygiene is a more important factor (such as towels, kitchen cloths, bedding or white items), a good powder is a better option. I've never once had to go out and buy additional stain removers (oxi-clean, vanish etc). I've heard many times that liquds are bad for your machine and can lead to a build up of residue on internal parts, but I've not had any experience of this and can't really explain how/why this happens. I know that machines where liquid is exclusively used tend to smell quite mouldy due to the lack of bacteria-killing bleaching agents, even more so where the user washes in cool or cold water. I've seen many machines where the drum seal has gone black with mould and there's been a bottle of some sort of liquid stood next to the machine. | ||
| Post# 719158 , Reply# 8 12/4/2013 at 04:18 (3,788 days old) by AquaCycle (West Yorkshire, UK) | ||
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powerder detergent are not made for fl washer
Sorry, but that's rubbish.
As I'm sure you're aware, front loading machines have always been more popular in the UK and Europe. Infact, I don't think there is a top-loader on sale in he UK at all at the moment. Despite heavy advertising from all the major detergent manufacturers, powders STILL remain more popular. When dosed correctly, there are little to no suds in the drum and they wash better due to additional ingredients not used in liquid detergents (as above). | ||
| Post# 719227 , Reply# 9 12/4/2013 at 12:45 (3,787 days old) by frontloaderfan (Merrimac valley, MA) | ||
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I see....
I had no idea I was making such a stupid mistake with mixing the two bleaching agents, although I have to say that the bleach is always added in the first rinse, whereas the Oxyclean is added to the wash water. I'm sure there is always a residual amount of Oxyclean in the clothes after the first spin, but I never noticed anything out of the ordinary...All the same, just to be safe, I'll use the CLB with my whites and the Oxyclean on colors. I saw Persil for sale online here in the US directly from Henkel (at least I think it was them). Not exactly cheap, though. About $1 US per load. | ||
Post# 719230 , Reply# 10 12/4/2013 at 12:56 (3,787 days old) by Frigilux  (The Minnesota Prairie) |
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I've used Amyway's version of Oxi-Clean called "Tri-Zyme" along with liquid chlorine bleach many, many times and I'm still standing.
My go-to detergent for stained loads is Tide With Bleach, and I'm sure that has oxygen-based bleach in it. I add liquid chlorine bleach to all of those loads. Have I been playing with dynamite all this time? Yikes! | ||
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Post# 719281 , Reply# 11 12/4/2013 at 18:55 (3,787 days old) by logixx (Germany) |
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| Post# 719341 , Reply# 12 12/5/2013 at 02:43 (3,787 days old) by arbilab (Ft Worth TX (Ridglea)) | ||
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| Post# 719345 , Reply# 13 12/5/2013 at 02:51 (3,787 days old) by mark_wpduet (Lexington KY) | ||
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I wasn't aware of the | ||
| Post# 719413 , Reply# 14 12/5/2013 at 12:24 (3,786 days old) by pierreandreply4 (St-Bruno de montarville (province of quebec) canada) | ||
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me i never use bleach
me i never use bleach i seem to have read a long time ago that liquid bleach is bad for clothes and not all clothing can handle bleach i have some nice bed sheets but the type of bed sheets i have do not handle bleach me i much rather stick to liquid detergent witch in my book clean better than any type of powder detergent and disolve better
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| Post# 719433 , Reply# 15 12/5/2013 at 13:30 (3,786 days old) by frontloaderfan (Merrimac valley, MA) | ||
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If it were only the comparatively worse wash results, I could live with liquids, but when I hear stuff like they coat the insides of the washer, that is enough to make me want to switch. I have no problems with powder detergents at all, but with the pitiful amount of water most modern North American FL's use, it didn't seem like powders were the right choice. Now that my washer actually uses a decent amount of (hot!) water, I am going to try powder again. I ordered a box of Persil online. I remember how good it is. Can't wait to try it out here!
I'm a firm believer in bleach when there's no onboard heater to disinfect the clothes. It's no wonder some people have problems with build-up in their machines when they use only cold water and no bleach... | ||
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Post# 719434 , Reply# 16 12/5/2013 at 13:32 (3,786 days old) by DADoES (TX, U.S. of A.) |
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| Post# 719442 , Reply# 18 12/5/2013 at 13:58 (3,786 days old) by frontloaderfan (Merrimac valley, MA) | ||
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Just to underline that, I recalled reading something in the owner's manual of my washer. It only said not to mix chlorine bleach with any other household cleaning agents, such as ammonia, as poisonous gases could be generated. I knew this already, of course, but the Oxyclean-bleach combo threw me a curve. The owner's manual also recommends using an agent such as Oxyclean in the wash. Since the machine adds bleach in the first rinse, there is no harm done.
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| Post# 719448 , Reply# 21 12/5/2013 at 14:29 (3,786 days old) by mark_wpduet (Lexington KY) | ||
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Bleach
For FL washers, (at least mine) the bleach dispenser holds a very small amount of bleach...and it is dispensed in the rinse cycle. There is NO WAY I can see never using liquid bleach......but a little of it goes a L O N G way...I think it really helps keep machine clean inside along with other ways to care for your machine.
I use the sanitary cycle, powder, bleach, and vinegar for rinse in all my white's.... | ||
| Post# 719479 , Reply# 23 12/5/2013 at 17:18 (3,786 days old) by miele_ge (Danbury, Connecticut) | ||
Persil is the way to go if you have a front loader (IMHO)... The powder that is....
Ryan,
If you calculate the cost per load using the # of loads on the box, it does seem very expensive. However, in my 5Kg Miele machine, I only use about 1/8 cup for average loads and maybe 1/8 to 1/4 cup (or slightly more) for really dirty loads. Not sure about the cost per load, but we do a lot of laundry, and the Persil seems to last. Also, between the Miele and the Persil, I need no other laundry additives and everything comes out spotless. If you try Persil, you might find you don't need the Oxy since Persil already has it in the Universal formula and you might even be able to ditch the LCB too. Just my 2 cents.
Alan | ||
| Post# 719488 , Reply# 24 12/5/2013 at 17:45 (3,786 days old) by frontloaderfan (Merrimac valley, MA) | ||
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Alan:
I have thought I would not need the Oxyclean (also not cheap) with Persil. When I lived in Germany, I never used LCB either, as it is fairly unknown over there. I remember everything used to come out fresh-smelling and very clean and white. About the only additive I would add other than Persil or Frosch powder is Calgon water softener for the heating element in my Miele. Not sure if that actually helped, but I felt better putting it in. Since my Frigidaire doesn't have a heater, there's no need to add anything else except maybe a little FS once in a while. | ||
| Post# 719679 , Reply# 26 12/6/2013 at 22:08 (3,785 days old) by Mayguy (Minnesota) | ||
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I've been used Norwex Powdered for 3 years, and love it.. It don't have any perfume, and only use 2-3tsp per load.
I use vinegar as my fabric softener, and Oxy along w/ liquid bluing for my whites.
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| Post# 719687 , Reply# 27 12/6/2013 at 23:09 (3,785 days old) by Mich (Hells Kitchen - New York) | ||
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Actually, YES. Hydrogen Peroxide is an Acid. It might be a "weak" acid, but, it is a ACID.
Acids like Vinegar, Ammonia, or any Acid, should never be mixed with Chlorine for one simple reason. Chlorine is a GAS, YES, IT'S A GAS. It's contained in a solution, making it "safer" for us to touch and use, but, when mixed with an ACID, like Ammonia, or in our case, Hydrogen Peroxide, that GAS can be released.
Don't say it can't. IT CAN, and it HAS before. It might take a lot, to make it happen, but is it honestly worth the risk?
Chlorine, in General, is a very nasty chemical. One does have to remember, it's original purpose wasn't to get things White, or Clean, it was used by Hitler to kill Soliders. In just one spray of Chlorine, or Mustard Gas, you could die in minutes. IT WAS EXTREMELY EFFECTIVE AT SUFFOCATING, AND KILLING HUMANS.
If you know me, or have followed me at all. You do know, I'm far from some "Eco-Warrior", "Tree Hugger", or, "Chemicals are Bad" kinda person, but I'm serious about this. This is dangerous, and I'd be very upset if I heard some story, about a fellow member getting sick, or worse from doing some combination. I do care about the people here, and I wouldn't stress this at all, if I didn't care. I've lost people in my life, from similar situations, and I don't wanna go through that again. Just, be careful, don't mix chemicals guys, it's not a good thing.
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| Post# 719728 , Reply# 28 12/7/2013 at 09:01 (3,784 days old) by Iheartmaytag (Wichita, Kansas) | ||
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Post# 719742 , Reply# 30 12/7/2013 at 09:42 (3,784 days old) by aamassther (Hendersonville, NC ) |
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I was curious about those statements as well. Not being a chemist, I wiki'd H2O2, chlorine bleach and chlorine. Without going into lots of detail. Mich is partially correct. H2O2 is a weak acid with a pH of 6.2 and considered a strong oxidiser.
From the info I found, mixing these two substances, at higher and purer concentrations than we use in the home, did indeed result in toxic gases being produced. Though not mustard. Chlorine, from mustard's wiki entry, has been used to neutralise mustard poisoning. From opinions on the web and the wiki entry's, the resulting gases were chlorine or oxygen, most likely chlorine. Neither of which is good for us to breathe in concentration. When you read the chemistry of both, it makes more sense that at the low concentrations we use in the home, they cancel each other out in the wash water, but shouldn't be mixed in purer forms. Much like mixing ammonia and LCB vs. peeing in the toilet when a bleach cleaner is in it. Just thought I would pass along what I found. This post was last edited 12/07/2013 at 10:57 | ||
| Post# 719747 , Reply# 31 12/7/2013 at 10:16 (3,784 days old) by mwb (Missouri) | ||
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Todd you are correct. My apologies to Mich. Hydrogen peroxide is indeed a weak acid. I was typing from memory which is not always the wisest thing to do. Obviously, peroxide solutions would have to be mildly acidic in order to neutralize chlorine. Duh! | ||
| Post# 719783 , Reply# 32 12/7/2013 at 14:15 (3,784 days old) by frontloaderfan (Merrimac valley, MA) | ||
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Okay, so the case of Persil got here today. I just want to be sure I'm dosing it correctly. The chart says for heavy soil and in hard water (which Maine definitely has) I should be using 275 ml of detergent. What?
I learned baking in Germany, where Persil is made, and we had to use the metric system, which I still use for baking, but in my book, milliliters are for liquid measures, grams are for dry measure. So if Persil is a powder, shouldn't it be weighed in grams? There is a conversion chart on the side of the box, which says 155 ml is equal to 95 grams. So, by way of a Dreisatz (sorry, I don't know what this is called in English), I figured: 275*95/155=168.5 or 170 grams rounded off. I got out the kitchen scale and weighed 170 g. of Persil, which was about 1 1/2 cups, which did not even fit in the detergent dispenser. Is this right or am I just a stupid American? Hilfe! This post was last edited 12/07/2013 at 14:40 | ||
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Post# 719785 , Reply# 33 12/7/2013 at 14:27 (3,784 days old) by aamassther (Hendersonville, NC ) |
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Detergent measures on the Persil pkts are volume not weight. I use about 60-120 cc/ml of the powder and 45-65cc/ml of the megaperls. We had mod hard water in Michigan and now very soft mountain water here in NC. I use the same amts here.
When I lived in Portland our water was quite soft, the origin was Sebago Lake. I'm surprised your water up Sanford way is that much harder since you're not that far south from Portland. You on well water? HTH, Todd | ||
| Post# 719787 , Reply# 35 12/7/2013 at 14:29 (3,784 days old) by StrongEnough78 (California) | ||
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| Post# 719789 , Reply# 36 12/7/2013 at 14:37 (3,784 days old) by frontloaderfan (Merrimac valley, MA) | ||
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Water..
Hey Todd, that helps a little. Actually, Sanford has "gravel filled wells" around York county and the water company said we have 7 grains (whatever that is) and upwards. I noticed the faucets scale up fairly quickly as well. So by volume, you mean I just get out my measuring cup and measure out 275 ml on the metric side?
So needless to say, I probably used about three times what I should have...sigh... I guess if I were smart, I would have seen that there are 475g in the box, which says it yields 5 washes, ergo 95g per wash on the average... After having used American laundry detergents for the last 8 years, I must say I am impressed. I had forgotten how clean Persil smells. Not overpowering, just clean. Even though I probably overdosed this time, it rinsed away cleanly too, not like Tide, which sticks around for the next wash, even when I use the tabs. I think I'll skip the FS on the next wash. The smell of Downy is downright gaudy compared with the modest scent of Persil... This post was last edited 12/07/2013 at 15:08 | ||
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Post# 719796 , Reply# 37 12/7/2013 at 15:02 (3,784 days old) by aamassther (Hendersonville, NC ) |
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7 grains is in line with the water I was used to in Michigan.
Yes, you're correct use a common measuring cup. Though 275 ml (approx. 1-1/4c)is a lot of powder for on load one load. I get great results with less than half that for a heavy soiled load in my Frigidaire Affinity. With the European stuff there's a learning curve to get the right amounts. The cost is a big incentive to be frugal. | ||
| Post# 719797 , Reply# 38 12/7/2013 at 15:14 (3,784 days old) by frontloaderfan (Merrimac valley, MA) | ||
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Post# 719801 , Reply# 39 12/7/2013 at 15:29 (3,784 days old) by aamassther (Hendersonville, NC ) |
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| Post# 719809 , Reply# 40 12/7/2013 at 16:23 (3,784 days old) by frontloaderfan (Merrimac valley, MA) | ||
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| Post# 719813 , Reply# 41 12/7/2013 at 16:47 (3,784 days old) by mrboilwash (Munich,Germany) | ||
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| Post# 719818 , Reply# 42 12/7/2013 at 17:10 (3,784 days old) by ronhic (Canberra, Australia) | ||
Ryan
Given the above information and how strong a performer Persil is, I think you should try the dosage for 'soft' water and 'medium' soil level and see if you're happy with the results.
When we lived in the UK, I used to use the lowest dose - soft water/light soiling. This was in London which has hard water, but I used to add Calgon gel to negate the hardness. I never had a problem with stains. | ||
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Post# 719820 , Reply# 43 12/7/2013 at 17:23 (3,784 days old) by aamassther (Hendersonville, NC ) |
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Your set is the one I recommended to a friend, they like them. It's a good, sturdy machine.
Sound advice from Ronhic, I started with soft water, medium and was able to back down, depending on the load. For a lights load of polos and t's 60cc, sturdier, dirtier stuff closer to 100cc, my massage linens 120cc. I use megaperls color for darks. | ||
| Post# 719828 , Reply# 44 12/7/2013 at 17:47 (3,784 days old) by frontloaderfan (Merrimac valley, MA) | ||
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mrboilwash: Danke der Aufklärung! I had forgotten how hard the water is in Germany.
Chris: Thanks for the suggestion! I will definitely try that next time. 270g Persil is a TON for a frontloader. Talk about overkill! It also says that it contains water softener, an added bonus. I recall a news spot in Germany where they were saying most good detergents actually contain water softener anyway and that Calgon was just using their "Washing machines live longer with Calgon" slogan to scare people into buying something they didn't need. Todd: I've had them just over a year now and so far they've been an awesome set! Since I got the government mandated bugs worked out (more water and unplugging the water temp sensor), the washer has been a real performer. I haven't had any of the problems with either of them I had read about online. I think I'd like to get the Color Megaperls next too. I used them from time to time in Germany as well. If you place an order over $90.00 from the Persil store, you don't have to pay for shipping, so maybe next time I'll order both and stock up for a while. | ||
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Post# 719842 , Reply# 46 12/7/2013 at 18:50 (3,784 days old) by aamassther (Hendersonville, NC ) |
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Ryan, with your modifications, your machine sounds like the 2000 era frigidaire I had. Did a good job cleaning with plenty of water and 4 rinses.
Productswithstyle.com or persil store both have single pkts of persil with free shipping, you don't need to spend their minimum that way. I buy my somat powder that way. 20 bucks, no shipping. Loaded with phosphates. | ||
| Post# 720084 , Reply# 48 12/9/2013 at 11:25 (3,782 days old) by frontloaderfan (Merrimac valley, MA) | ||
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I used Ariel Futur a couple of times but I recall I didn't like the scent of it as much. I think my favorite, after Persil Megaperls, was Frosch powder (I probably just like the pretty tin in came in). It seems there are a lot of very "chav scented" (love that term!) detergents here in the US. Things like "floral explosion" (sounds like something Paul Lynde would do during sex) are just too overpowering for my taste.
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