Thread Number: 51162
Retro automatic washer
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Post# 735279   2/14/2014 at 20:16 (3,695 days old) by brucelucenta ()        

I am just waiting for someone to design and manufacture a retro solid tub washer of some type that has all the appeal and style of the ones from the 50's. Perhaps with a washing action like the Apex or Kelvinator. It would seem to me that one like the Apex would be easier to manufacture, since the tub itself is what is used to agitate the clothes. Someone is bound to do it at some point and with the material we now have to use, it would cost less to manufacture and hold up better I think.




Post# 735312 , Reply# 1   2/14/2014 at 22:25 (3,695 days old) by norgeway (mocksville n c )        
The problem is!

They dont WANT anything to last, in the 50s the motto was, Lets build it to be the very best, now its, Lets see how cheap we can get away with building things, lets out sourse them to china and mexico for cheap labor,an example of this is, you can not buy a washer or a range today that has a flourescent light on it, no chrome trim or brightwork of any kind, and most cabinets are just painted steel, ranges too, used to be no one would have considered a range that was not all porcelain..I wish someone would build a solid tub machine, they are more efficent with water, and I think wash better.A Kelvinator would be fantastic!

Post# 735339 , Reply# 2   2/15/2014 at 00:19 (3,695 days old) by tolivac (greenville nc)        

Remember the TL designs described are now restricted by the water use regulations.If such a machine were made-the tub would only fill with just enough water to dampen the items washed.And the PRICE of such a machine built to the desired standards-would be EXPENSIVE-but very nice.A person wanting a QUALITY machine may be interested-others out there would not.So the best bet on such a washer-try to find a vintage one by hunting the swap shops,thrift places,trade in piles and so on.

Post# 735341 , Reply# 3   2/15/2014 at 00:21 (3,695 days old) by tolivac (greenville nc)        

New "Retro" washer-the Speed Queen TL ones are the closest things you are going to find to meet your standards.No bouncing drum,but how bout settling for an agitator.

Post# 735353 , Reply# 4   2/15/2014 at 01:47 (3,695 days old) by norgeway (mocksville n c )        
I may be wrong,

But a solid tub would theoretically use less water , especially a tub like in the old Frigidaires.

Post# 735400 , Reply# 5   2/15/2014 at 10:09 (3,694 days old) by cornutt (Huntsville, AL USA)        

It's worth reviewing the reasons that manufacturers got away from solid-tub designs:

* Measuring the water level is difficult. Most solid-tubs used timed fill, which causes a variety of problems.

* Spinning a tub full of water puts more of a strain in the motor and the mechanism. There weren't that many large-capacity solid tub machines; most of them had smaller capacities than users are accustomed to today.

* There's the sock-over-the-side problem. Not that perforated tubs are totally immune from this, but it was more of a problem with solid tubs.

* Solid tubs weren't very good at getting rid of insoluable sediments that settle to the bottom of the tub during wash. We all know about the sediment-ejector tubes that always got clogged up.

In addition, there are modern features that I think would be harder to implement on a solid-tub machine, such as automatic load measuring and water heating.

Having said all that, modern technology could probably overcome all of these problems. For instance, optical load measuring and water level sensing, possibly using a sensor built into the cabinet rim. Lots of modern machines have the top of the inner tub sealed to the outer tub; a tub drain could be incorporated into that such that it would be impossible for an item of any size to escape into the outer tub. Large stepper motors, a la the GE Harmony, have gobs of torque and could spin a large tub full of water with no problem, without a clutch. The sediment problem could potentially be solved by magnetically operated sediment drain valves in the bottom of the tub, using modern high-power magnets; that would not require a physical connection between the tub and the stationary mechanism.

It does seem like a solid-tub machine could be a water saver if it was implemented properly with modern technology. Old solid-tub machines often didn't save water because they couldn't control their fill levels. (And because they did overflow rinses...) Obviously, if you don't have to fill the space between the inner and outer tubs, that should save some water, especially with today's large-capacity tubs.


Post# 735448 , Reply# 6   2/15/2014 at 14:11 (3,694 days old) by norgeway (mocksville n c )        
I Would!

Still take a brand new Unimatic over anything built today, about all that ever broke was the torque spring, and that not often, and I never heard of one of those Delco motors going out!LOL

Post# 735451 , Reply# 7   2/15/2014 at 14:19 (3,694 days old) by kitty ()        
Just wondering about Frigidaire Unimatics...

How many horsepower is the motor? it must be really hard to turn the tub with all that water. For a motor, a wide rotor one could also have large amounts of torque...
About Delco motors, is the company still in business or not?


Post# 735452 , Reply# 8   2/15/2014 at 14:21 (3,694 days old) by kitty ()        
Just wondering about Frigidaire Unimatics...

How many horsepower is the motor? it must be really hard to turn the tub with all that water. For a motor, a wide rotor one could also have large amounts of torque...
About Delco motors, is the company still in business or not?
Also, keep in mind that there are like only 2 Apex wash-a-matics still around.


Post# 735460 , Reply# 9   2/15/2014 at 14:49 (3,694 days old) by washman (o)        
Yes but............

Norgeway: No one would pay the price for such a good machine. Americans are sheeple by and large and have been inculcated with the erroneous attitude that cheaper is better.

Kitty: No, Delco motors was actually Packard Electric based in Warren OH which GM bought in 1932 and would for the next 47 years provide power to a great multitude of Frigidaire appliances.


Post# 735463 , Reply# 10   2/15/2014 at 15:06 (3,694 days old) by kitty ()        
THX for your reply!

I was wondering about Delco motors. Does anyone know how many HP those are?

Post# 735470 , Reply# 11   2/15/2014 at 16:18 (3,694 days old) by swestoyz (Cedar Falls, IA)        

swestoyz's profile picture

1956 Unimatic motor model tag.  1/3 HP.

 

I agree with the idea that a solid tub wouldn't be practical for most user's expectations of using a washing machine these days.  Honestly, the art of doing laundry has just about died.  Today, most people lead lives that don't leave much time to do honest household chores.  For laundry, it's stuff, fill, wash, and dry. 

 

I've helped many friends fix or diagnosis a broken appliance.  To them, all they want is a machine that cleans clothes.  They don't really care how it is done, just as long as they believe what they pull out is clean.

 

Ben


Post# 735489 , Reply# 12   2/15/2014 at 17:59 (3,694 days old) by hippiedoll ( arizona )        
"all they want is a machine that cleans clothes,

hippiedoll's profile picture
They don't really care how it is done. For laundry, it's stuff, fill, wash, and dry":

SO SAD, BUT TRUE!!!
:o(


Post# 735491 , Reply# 13   2/15/2014 at 18:15 (3,694 days old) by cornutt (Huntsville, AL USA)        

"No one would pay the price for such a good machine. "

I wonder about that... it's not like the crummy machines are cheap. These days you can easily pay $2000 for a third-rate set that won't clean well and will be kaput in five years. I'd be curious about how many people are actually shelling out $$$ for "semi-pro" machines like the Miele Little Giants, or even the smaller Wascomats, but the marketing isn't accounting for them because they are buying through non-traditional sources. I've got to believe that as makers continue to crank out machines that don't clean, have mold problems, and break down frequently, eventually there's going to be day of reckoning with the customers. A company that has a traditional-based design, quality built and augmented with modern technology, might find itself way ahead of the game at that point.


Post# 735493 , Reply# 14   2/15/2014 at 18:37 (3,694 days old) by norgeway (mocksville n c )        
Youre correct!

A Unimatic today would cost 5000.00 to build I bet, and I can hear the complaints now.." It tangeles up my clothes!". Its too small...Never mind you can pack it full and it still washes great...it gets out of balance..etc.Same with something like a Kelvinator...it splases water when I open the lid!!!! So I realize im dreaming...of course I also dream of Ike in the white house, a balanced budget,and the US making 2/3 of all goods produced..which we did!!!And I dream of a new DeSoto in my driveway...a 59 Adventurer with a 383 and 2 four barrell carbs..with gas at 27 cents a gallon for 100 octane, who cares if it got 15 miles to the gallon!!! A new Geneva Kitchen, A pink tiled Crane bathroom..A Sylvania Halo Lite tv, a phone where when you wanted to make a long distance call, you diled 0 and a nice lady said, yes sir ,number please!A grocery store with all the old products that are now gone or changed..Golden Fluffo, Spry or Crisco in a metal can, Aunt Jemima pancake mix that had 4 flours in it,Thompsons Fireside corn bread mix...Tide and Cheer and Dash and All that would clean...a new Electrolux model Ae or AF ....ON and on !!!and best of all, everything still done on paper, NO COMPUTER!!!!!!!!

Post# 735557 , Reply# 15   2/15/2014 at 22:32 (3,694 days old) by danemodsandy (The Bramford, Apt. 7-E)        
Chuckle!

danemodsandy's profile picture
"best of all, everything still done on paper, NO COMPUTER!!!!!!!!"

Hans, I'd be willing to bet that Robert thinks he has enough AW.org problems without having to run the group on postcards.... ;-)


Post# 735576 , Reply# 16   2/16/2014 at 00:20 (3,694 days old) by norgeway (mocksville n c )        
LOL!!! You are right!!

But I do love dealing with our local furniture store, the owner will not allow a computer on the premesis...when you buy something they fill out a card and put it in the filing cabinet...it drives his son NUTS!!LOL

Post# 735642 , Reply# 17   2/16/2014 at 12:10 (3,693 days old) by frontloaderfan (Merrimac valley, MA)        

frontloaderfan's profile picture
"no computer"

You're both right, but without the computer, we wouldn't know that the rest of us exist. I mean, when I was a kid, I used to be mortified when my mother would tell her friends "he loves washing machines". That was so embarrassing because I thought I was the only one on earth who was into that stuff. Turns out it's not quite as rare as I thought.


Post# 735645 , Reply# 18   2/16/2014 at 12:32 (3,693 days old) by countryford (Phoenix, AZ)        

countryford's profile picture
On a couple other sites that are into "Vintage" and "Retro", it appears that they forget about the washer and dryer. Some have the vintage stove and refrigerator or the new ones that look retro, but the washer and dryer are typically in a seperate room, so they don't focus on them. A vintage set to them would not be effecient and difficult to find parts for. And since they are in a seperate room, they wouldn't want to spend the extra money to keep the retro look in the laundry room.

Just my two cents, and of course doesn't apply to here.


Post# 735667 , Reply# 19   2/16/2014 at 15:55 (3,693 days old) by terryT ()        
computers and solid tubs

Regarding the computer, I see it as a value neutral technology that is and will be used and misused! The internet and computers just expand on life's strange paradoxes. A big plus as noted above, is that we can find each other. The downside is the tendency of adolescent younger people to use social media to create a "virtual self" with virtual "friends" but can't look a real person in the eye and will be devastated by being "unfriended."

Another plus is the vast information on odd-ball equipment, yet if it's NOT in the computer somewhere, then that thing or thought is assumed to not exist. And worse yet, a piece of misinformation tends to propagate and never go away.

A computer as a washing machine control has always made me react with a cringe since it's been used to make a cheap replacement for an expensive mechanical timer. And computers have been used to automate simple processes like washing cloths in such a way to give me fewer choices rather than more. I tend to wash clothes in such a way that puts me in a battle with automatic controls. I guess that's why using a wringer washer is not something I find disagreeable.

But it comes down to the intent of the engineers and bean counters. Computer controls can be made bulletproof and flexible, more so than a mechanical one, but a great electronic control will cost as much to make as a great mechanical one. If the engineers decide to be patronizing and dumb down the software and lock out the desires of the user, then I blow a gasket because their attitude infects my "user experience." My inner anti-authoritarian bristles at electronic controls that won't let ME make decisions! If the bean counters decide to cheapify the controls so that they are unreliable and short lived then I'm really pissed. And if the MBA's in management decide to use future replacement of unreliable electronic controls as a revenue stream, then I'm angry enough to have the unit crushed and delivered to their front door.

But I typically don't have these problems. I won't buy in to the mindless consumerist role as a citizen. I doubt any one here does either! We really are statistical outliers which, of course, doesn't bode well for seeing a retro solid tub washer coming to market.
===
Regarding the thought of an HE solid tub TL, the Apex wash-a-matic really does seem the ideal design since the whole tub creates turnover, even dry. Looking at consumer complaints about HE TL machines, the lack of turnover and ability to wet all the cloths is the biggest issue. I swear the Apex could wet clothes and turn them over without having to use one tablespoon more water than is necessary to fully saturate the clothing. It could be monitored with an excellent computer/sensor arrangement. Would more water be better? Sure. But I dare say it would be a leap ahead of current HE TL technology.

Just my 2 bits (inflation, you know).



Post# 735695 , Reply# 20   2/16/2014 at 18:48 (3,693 days old) by norgeway (mocksville n c )        
The REASON..

Behind my computer rant..is that, before computers, old appliances in general were very affordable, now lots of times, people look at restored stuff and think what they have must be worth at least half as much...they have no comprehension of the work and expense that goes into a restoration, used to be a old washer could be bought at a thrift store for 25.00 a range was the same 25 to 50.00, now they will have a printout from Jowers or some other restoration shop showing a restored model for 5000 to 10000 dollars..same with vacuums, I used to canvass the vac shops, I have bought tons of old machines for 10 to 15 dollars, now they are astronomically priced, years ago we had a set price at the VCCC convention, 15.00 was the maximum anyone could charge for an old machine, we then had truly affordable hobbies, now its different, also, what concerns me most is, everything in our country depends on computers...defense systems, banking, the electrical grid, all it would take is a pulse from a good sized nuke, and we would be helpless, not likely, but possible.I think they are fine as entertainment, but I dont do ANY business on line, except for paypal on ebay, I pay my bills by check, and will continue just as long as I can.

Post# 735699 , Reply# 21   2/16/2014 at 19:14 (3,693 days old) by DADoES (TX, U.S. of A.)        

dadoes's profile picture
 
I pay my bills by check, and will continue just as long as I can.
The receiving payee may process the check electronically, as does their bank and yours.  :-)


Post# 735701 , Reply# 22   2/16/2014 at 19:19 (3,693 days old) by kitty ()        
@swestoyz:

1/3 HP?! I would think it would be in upwards of 1 1/2 to 2 HP. Do you think a 1/2 HP would directly spin a full tub of water? My WP DD is a 20" machine. THX for your reply.

@cornutt:what is a "large stepper motor"? I've never heard of that.


Post# 735706 , Reply# 23   2/16/2014 at 19:25 (3,693 days old) by washman (o)        
I've ranted on this many times before

I'm sure some just roll their eyes, but I get you 100% terryT. The wrong application of technology is just plain idiotic, no matter what the motive. In the case of laundry, particularly with consumer units, complaints are legion. And simply stated, those machines just don't last as long as the oldies.

Post# 735711 , Reply# 24   2/16/2014 at 19:43 (3,693 days old) by DADoES (TX, U.S. of A.)        

dadoes's profile picture
 
@cornutt:what is a "large stepper motor"? I've never heard of that.
Example, disassembled.

The piece on the right (with multiple copper-wound poles) is the stator. The gray disk on the left is the rotor.  It has magnets around the periphery and rotates in response to a the field generated by the stator.  The drive shaft mounts into the rotor.  The white piece mounted on the stator is a rotor position sensor by which the control board monitors the rotational speed and position of the rotor, and can precisely control the RPM and arc of movement.


Post# 735712 , Reply# 25   2/16/2014 at 19:44 (3,693 days old) by cornutt (Huntsville, AL USA)        

Kitty, a "stepper motor" is a particular type of motor that can be made to move in very small increments. Basically, it has a whole bunch of pole pieces around the circumfrence of the motor. The poles are connected to one of three circuits, called A, B, and C, in a repeating sequence: A B C A B C etc. If the motor is currently on an A pole, you can make it move a small amount in one direction by applying power to the B circuit. It then moves to the B pole. Now you can make it move further in that direction by applying power to the C circuit. Or make it go back in the other direction by applying power to the A circuit. If you have a computer controlling all of this, you can make the motor run in either direction as fast or as slow as you want, or you can make it go back and forth in alternate directions, or stop very rapidly.

A stepper motor that is big enough can really move a heavy, high-inertia object like a tub full of water and laundry. The GE Harmony washer uses a large stepper motor to move its wash plate and tub. The Harmony has a part of its wash cycle called the "infusion", in which it spins the full tub of water first one way and then the other. The cleaning value of the infusion is debatable, but the fact that the motor does it with ease is impressive. It also does the agitation by rapidly alternating directions, and it spins the tub at 1000 RPM. And it's direct drive; there is no transmission, and no clutch except for the mechanism that locks and unlocks the tub.

I brought up the stepper in regard to the common problem with any washer that does spin drain of how to get the full tub of water moving at the start of the spin. Water is heavy, and most washers with spin drain need a mechanism that allows a known, controlled amount of slip to occur so that the motor doesn't stall and overheat trying to get started. But such mechanisms are often problematic and require regular maintenance. The stepper motor would make a great alternative for a modern solid-tub machine, since it wouldn't need a slip mechanism. It could drive the tub directly and provide an almost infinite choice of spin speed.


Post# 735716 , Reply# 26   2/16/2014 at 19:58 (3,693 days old) by kitty ()        
Also,

@cornutt again for modern solid tub washers: There could be an optical load level sensor and a metered fill. Or manually selectable fill... whatever.

They should take something, such as a Maytag J2L wringer washer and take off the wringer and replace it with an inner tub (solid) and an agitate and spin lever with a fluid clutch for accelerating spin drum. It should be direct connect with the motor, for a better spin speed: 1,725 RPM. The clutch would be the brake, the transmission has a brake which instantly stops it so the clutch silently stops it. When the lever is move from SPIN to AGITATE, the trans will stop for fluid clutch to stop spinning tub. Pump will be always on, so you could do overflow rinse. It could have a turnable spout, firm fan spray for optimum spray rinse. For agitation mode, there could be a trans. brake so the tub won't index. Suspension could be the motor mounted on 4 springs and could have locking wheels for feet so it could roll around. The pump could be a centrifugal on bottom end of motor shaft, so optimum drain speed. On the top need, the transmission for efficient operation. I would think there could be an optional clear outer tub, for viewing purposes if you want. There could also be a square outer tub, like E2L or J2L. Agitator would be the same, like in the wringer washers. The inner tub would have a basket-weave top so clothes won't come out into outer tub. There wouldn't be any top trim on inner tub, so the water could dump out as quick as possible. Now that would be a COOL thing, if it all worked flawlessly.


Post# 735719 , Reply# 27   2/16/2014 at 20:00 (3,693 days old) by kitty ()        
How is speed regulated/controlled?

Is it variable frequency or volts?

Post# 735810 , Reply# 28   2/17/2014 at 09:42 (3,692 days old) by cornutt (Huntsville, AL USA)        

Kitty: A stepper motor needs a processor to control it. The processor has to apply power in bursts to the A, B, & C circuits in sequence to make the motor keep turning. Speed is controlled by how much power is applied in each burst, and it needs a position sensor that the controller can read to figure out when the motor has moved far enough to apply power to the next circiut. They sell dedicated IC's that can do all this -- you tell the controller how fast you want the motor to run and in which direction, and it does all the work of managing the A/B/C circuits to make the motor do what you want.

I like the idea of an Apex tub mechanism, where the entire tub agitates, attached to a direct-drive stepper motor. Mechanically it would be extremely simple. There would be only one shaft seal, where the shaft goes through the outer tub.


Post# 735856 , Reply# 29   2/17/2014 at 13:41 (3,692 days old) by kitty ()        
ok... Im thinking of Samsung and Lg.

I think those have the large external rotor motor. Do you think you like the modified Mayg wringer washer ?

Post# 735861 , Reply# 30   2/17/2014 at 14:04 (3,692 days old) by DADoES (TX, U.S. of A.)        

dadoes's profile picture
 
Kitty,

If I'm properly aware of the history, Fisher & Paykel pioneered the use of stepper motors in washing machines circa 1990/1992 with their SmartDrive toploader.  Whirlpool used the SmartDrive motor and design for introduction of the Kenmore Oasis, Whirlpool Cabrio, and Maytag Bravos.  Some Cabrio and Bravos toploaders still use it ... as do frontloaders from Whirlpool and others that you have mentioned.


Post# 735867 , Reply# 31   2/17/2014 at 14:33 (3,692 days old) by Yogitunes (New Jersey)        

yogitunes's profile picture
todays solid tub.....well, not exactly today, but is it possible to convert a GE FilterFlo back to a solid tub design?.....

granted it would not be fool proof......and most likely wash full loads....but in reality, didn't GE just add a perforated tub to their machine to change it over?....I mean the outter tub never changed, and most of the mechanism should be the same.....

all you would need to find or create would be to make the perforated tub solid again.....

you would need a MiniBasket water level machine.....once the machine filled, and enough water overflowed into the outter tub, to trigger the pressure switch and allow for the filter flo to function.....

it would still be able to operate at two speeds, if available, and the plus side is the pump operates at full speed at all times...

would this actually be possible?....or is it to farfetched?...


Post# 735871 , Reply# 32   2/17/2014 at 14:39 (3,692 days old) by norgeway (mocksville n c )        
GE..

The mechanism actually did have oe change, the solid tub machines dont have the latch slide brake, they coast to a stop.


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