Thread Number: 51446
I don't understand why manual filter dishwashers are so popular...
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Post# 738083   2/27/2014 at 15:27 (3,682 days old) by murando531 (Augusta, Georgia - US)        

murando531's profile picture
...especially with how lazy society has gotten in general when it comes to "chores" like laundry and dishes; hence the popularity of terrible detergent pods and Auto-Sense cycles. Why is it appealing to get down in the bottom of the machine and unscrew a filter that has to be cleaned after every load (unless you scrub the dishes clean before loading them, again, adding more work and water consumption) if the majority of people "don't want to have to think about it"? Consumer Reports adds to every review "has a manual filter that needs to be cleaned periodically, which you might prefer over the noise of a self-cleaning dishwasher", but upon hearing a true self cleaning automatic and a filtered model side by side, the new ones are actually louder, considering that you hear the mechanism every 10 minutes or so that alternates the flow to each wash arm. The only sound that an older self-cleaning machine (PowerClean or Point Voyager) makes is a quiet hum and the muffled sound of water cascading around the machine. Plus, the difference in the results of the older models is like night and day compared to the shortcomings of these new eco-models.




Post# 738086 , Reply# 1   2/27/2014 at 15:49 (3,682 days old) by Pulsator (Saint Joseph, MI)        

pulsator's profile picture
My dad has had a Bosch dishwasher with a manual filter since 2005, my mom has had the same model since 2006. Neither of them scrub or rinse the dishes, only scrape the chunks off, and we have never ever had to clean the filer. We check the filters every couple of months but the filters are always spotlessly clean just like the dishes that come out of the dishwashers.

Post# 738092 , Reply# 2   2/27/2014 at 16:14 (3,682 days old) by washman (o)        
murando531, any time the word "eco"

is attached to something, we're all suppsoed to geneflect, bow down, and accept it as good no matter what the other remifications are.

I can recall when CR USED to ding dishwashers that required manual filter cleaning. But of course since it supposedly "saves" water, that makes it ok now.


Post# 738093 , Reply# 3   2/27/2014 at 16:17 (3,682 days old) by foraloysius (Leeuwarden, Friesland, the Netherlands)        

foraloysius's profile picture
I have always had dishwashers with "manual filters". But as long as you use a good detergent, those filters don't need cleaning. Dirt will be dissolved and pumped down the drain. The filters are self cleaning. This has nothing to do with eco, in Europe we always had this kind of filter. There are less moving parts, so less can break down.

Post# 738094 , Reply# 4   2/27/2014 at 16:19 (3,682 days old) by petek (Ontari ari ari O )        

petek's profile picture
I barely ever check the filter because after 10 years of owning filter type machines it was exceedingly rare to find anything to rinse out.

Post# 738096 , Reply# 5   2/27/2014 at 16:25 (3,682 days old) by logixx (Germany)        

logixx's profile picture
I suppose the biggest misconception is that people tend to confuse dryer lint filters with dishwasher filters. Lint screens in dryers have to be cleaned after each use - dishwasher filters not.

We made oatmeal cookies a few days ago: a real sticky mess covering several bowls and utensils. The next day, I threw everything in the Bosch and 55 minutes everything was spotless. Water usage was 2.6 gal for a 150F wash, heated rinse, 150F final rinse and ten minutes of drying.

Besides, I'd rather take 20 seconds to remove a piece of broken glass, a bit of paper/sticker or the infamous "fibrous material" from a manual clean filter than to remove the pump assembly because the grinder chocked on it.

Alex


Post# 738099 , Reply# 6   2/27/2014 at 16:41 (3,682 days old) by brisnat81 (Brisbane Australia)        

You'd have to be throwing actual food in the dishwasher to need to clean a manual clean filter.

I scrape the solids into the garbage disposal and load the dishwasher with food bits, sauces and gravy's all over the plate, small bits of broccoli, potato, meat, bread etc all end up in the dishwasher and are all gone by the end of the cycle.

The only thing I find in there every few months might be a bit of plastic or something light that, but otherwise it is self cleaning.


Post# 738100 , Reply# 7   2/27/2014 at 17:22 (3,682 days old) by whirlykenmore78 (Prior Lake MN (GMT-0500 CDT.))        
Manual filter DWs

whirlykenmore78's profile picture
What people forget is, even if the filter flushes clean at the end of the cycle. The final rinse water is still running through it AND THE FOOD IT CAUGHT! There is NO way the dishes can be free of food particulate when the rinse water is RUN THROUGH IT! No screen is that fine.
WK78


Post# 738103 , Reply# 8   2/27/2014 at 17:38 (3,682 days old) by mrb627 (Buford, GA)        
Filters

mrb627's profile picture
I don't pre-rinse dishes and I find far less residue on my dishes than the last dishwasher I had with a grinder in it.

Malcolm


Post# 738104 , Reply# 9   2/27/2014 at 17:40 (3,682 days old) by Frigilux (The Minnesota Prairie)        

frigilux's profile picture
As others have pointed out, a manual-clean filter requires far less attention than one might suspect. I avoided them like the plague until I purchased a GE PDT750 in December. I've never had to clean the large flat filter on the floor of the machine, and the ultra-fine gets a rinse under the faucet once every 10 to 14 days, whether it needs it or not.

I don't do anything more than scrape large chunks off dishes. I have people in for dinner (and breakfast, brunch and lunch) frequently, so the dishwasher runs one to three times a day, and often all day long on weekends, when I spend a significant amount time in the kitchen and tend to have the most company.

Dishwashers without food choppers can be quieter. The PDT750 is nearly silent---several decibels quieter than the LG it replaced. The LG was very quiet, so the whirring sound of the food disposer was actually noticeable. The Maytag, Frigidaire, and KitchenAid dishwashers I had prior to that were a little louder, so the sound of the food disposer was masked. I appreciate a hushed dishwasher since I spend a lot of time in the kitchen. A more assertive machine can get annoying to listen to after a few hours.

Both the LG and GE dishwashers have alternate rack washing, and the sound of the changeovers is virtually unnoticed. On several occasions, I've had people in my kitchen who didn't even realize the GE was running.

Both the LG and GE dishwashers, which use only 3.5-5 gallons per Normal cycle clean dishes and pots/pans better than the other aforementioned models, which used more water. Granted, the cycles are longer these days---the GE's Normal cycle is 1 hour + 15 minutes without a heat boost and 1 hour + 51 minutes with one---but I use the GE's Express (30 minutes) and Light (49 minutes) cycles frequently with loads that don't contain pots/pans and experience excellent results.

If you simply don't want to deal with a manual filter, there are plenty of well-equipped MOL models with food disposers. And if you aren't convinced that low water-use machines can do the job, there are plenty of vintage machines out in the world that use 10-14 gallons per cycle.

Cascade Platinum and Cascade Complete detergent pods do an excellent job of cleaning. I have soft water, so that may make a difference.









This post was last edited 02/27/2014 at 18:22
Post# 738113 , Reply# 10   2/27/2014 at 18:22 (3,682 days old) by washman (o)        
Whoa frig!

You said PODS.

Again!

In all honesty, I have to thumbs up you on this. My new GE does a much better job with the Cascade pod than it does with any kind of powder. Seems the cup is deep and the water just does not really get in there to push out the powder.
In fact the user guide specifically calls for Cascade pods to be used "for best results".

For kicks, I tried the Finish tablets with the red powerball and found the results to be lacking.


Post# 738118 , Reply# 11   2/27/2014 at 18:50 (3,682 days old) by washman (o)        
Here's some shots of the load before

Pancake batter in a bowl.

Sticky Log Cabin syrup on plate

Assorted utensils

Coffee cups.

Cereal bowls.

2 ashtrays.

Been sitting since Monday.

1 Finish power tab, the one with the red ball in the middle.

Apologies for the lame photo stitch, I tried MS Paint and I now know my skill set is not in photo editing.


Post# 738127 , Reply# 12   2/27/2014 at 19:53 (3,682 days old) by washer111 ()        

Personally, I don't mind manual-clean filters, so long as they keep themselves clean. The only thing that good ones can't handle is excessive amounts of meat trimmings or "disposable" food objects that don't disintegrate with the wash.

 

I've said it before, and I'll say it again, provided I don't eat huge amounts of oatmeal (particularly with Physillium Husks), the DishDrawer's kidney drain filter and filter plate stay mostly clean. There is a jet underneath the wash arm that swoops accumlation to what I assume are dead areas around the filter where water cannot flow, due to obstruction. The Drain filter, being broken in half (lost its top) also gets a wash from the jet, and mostly stays clean. The flow of the water into the sump area during the drain period also flushes some debris and captures other.

What the machine doesn't seem to do is gobble up salad... It seems that if any remains on the plate before washing, you'll find it in the shallowest area of the drawer (at the back) after the cycle, and the filter jet doesn't sweep it.

What it will do with its rubber impeller is gobble up rice, spaghetti, pasta and oatmeal. You can certainly hear it during drain periods - little crunching sounds as the force of the objects against the pump wall and impellers beat them into submission. Cool :-)

 

As for detergent choices, I've found that any good detergent dosed correctly will keep the filter mostly clean. I avoid the Fairy tabs, except for burnt on loads, which only happen very occaisionly. Using the Heavy cycles (With or without Eco modifier) guarantee the filter stays clean - so perhaps I should use them more often.

My other comment of detergent: Morning Fresh and "Earth Choice" powders both seem to leave white dust in the bottom of the machine, under the filter. I'm surprised, as the water supplied isn't hard. I'm guessing its the washing soda or Phosphate replacement causing my dilemma.


Post# 738158 , Reply# 13   2/27/2014 at 21:52 (3,682 days old) by rapunzel (Sydney)        

If the manual filters are so wonderful why do so many consumers have problems with stinky dishwashers? And why are they now selling dishwasher cleaners and deodorizers? Such things were not heard of 30 years ago.

Admittedly there are some improvements to manual filters - they don't have as many removable parts for cleaning and if one uses the hottest and strongest cycle regularly they keep pretty clean. I quite like the filters in my F&P drawers. They require very little attention and there are only two removable parts. Though, with older dishwashers I used, filters were made up of numerous parts that were fiddly to take apart and put together; some with sharp edges that could cut your skin and they did need periodic checking and cleaning.

I've never had a smelly dishwasher problem ever, and put that problem down to users primarily opting for the eco programs rather than choosing the longest/hottest cycle regularly. My brother in law is one of these people. He stuffs the dishwasher full to the brim, doesn't scrape nor rinse, and picks the fast cycle with eco option for everything. All that does is rinse stuff into the filter without actually getting it out of the machine and some dishes still feel greasy; but that doesn't phase him. It's been through the machines and, as far as he is concerned, it's clean. With modern dishwashers not using much water to properly flush out everything, I reckon the constant use of short, low-temp eco cycles to be the culprit of malodor.

My personal preference still is and always will be the quintessential American dishwasher with built-in grinder - can't beat that for looks, speed, performance and convenience. In my humble opinion the older machines looked a lot better too. I don't see much of an aesthetic in anything modern - to me it all looks minimalistic (bland), cheap and mass-produced.




This post was last edited 02/28/2014 at 02:45
Post# 738161 , Reply# 14   2/27/2014 at 22:33 (3,682 days old) by nmassman44 (Brooksville Florida)        

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I have to chime in here as well...My Miele dishwasher has the "manual filter" that really is a self cleaning one since after 40 cycles, it will nag me to clean the filters, and when I do there isnt anything in the hopper part where the food collects to be pumped down the drain. My machine uses 6 gallons of water, has the alternating arms and there is a jet aimed at the filter that jets the food particles into the center of the filter. Rarely do I have anything on the filter. And I dont pre wash/rinse anything that goes into it. I have been using the Cascade Complete pacs that do an outstanding job on everything. I have a stash of Finish PowerBalls and Quantum that I use as well.

Post# 738162 , Reply# 15   2/27/2014 at 22:44 (3,682 days old) by thomasortega (El Pueblo de Nuestra Señora de Los Angeles de Porciúncula)        

I have a countertop Electrolux that is very similar to that countertop Haier sold in the US. It has a filter and the second load I ran in it was the "Maytag's Chocolate cake test" on it with 1/4 or a chocolate cake simply thrown over the load.

After the cycle there wasn't even a trace of food or chocolate cake on the dishes, the machine or the filters.  The machine was fully loades with really dirty and greasy items and I used a tablet of Unilever's Sun.

That machine really impressed me a lot. it's really small and it has only one rack but it can handle much more than one would think. The water consumption really surprised me. I installed the machine and ran the first cycle in it, i could barely see the water a few milimeters above the filter plate. It didn't even cover the whole sump and the first thing I thought was that the machine won't clean or rinse properly. The normal cycle takes 2 hours and the Eco cycle takes 3, the same as the pots and pans cycle. Ok, they are long but the water and energy consumption are nothing compared to the two other dishwashers i have. And as I always run the dishwasher at night, before i go to bed, i don't care if it's going to take 2, 3 or 8 hours to finish the cycle. Actualy i've been using the eco-nazi cycle because it saves an insignificant amount of electricity but it cleans very well too.

I never found dirty items after the wash. It's a wonderful machine.

This machine has a few months now (maybe  6 months) and I check the filter monthly. Honestly, i never had to wash it because it looks like the machine was never used before. The only thing i did was rinse it quickly under the tap to get rid of a big slice of champignon that was trapped in the coarse filter. I didn't even have to open the filter and that was only once.

I noted the wash arm has a tiny "fan" hole on the bottom, that sweeps the sump and every time it drains, it also opens the fill valve for 3 or 4 seconds right after it drains but before the pump turns off, before each rinse.

I never pre rinse the dishes, I simply scrape big things and I don't care about small amounts of rice or pasta left behind. After I load, the door is nasty with sauces, remainings in glasses, etc

The machine always drains before it starts the first fill and there's always so many liquids that i can see the mess comming out of the drain hose in the sink. 

Other thing i hoticed, the machine has another jet below the sump filter and there's a tiny pipe in the filter that connects to it when the filter is in position and locked.. When the machine drains, part of the water is pumped back and makes a whirlpool in the filter flushing the fine mesh.
The other two countertop dishwashers (Brastemp) have filters that look like a small basket and that's a PITA. I have to clean them every few loads because even rice gets trapped in there. 


Post# 738201 , Reply# 16   2/28/2014 at 05:39 (3,682 days old) by dj-gabriele ()        

Having never used a dishwasher with a grinder I can't comment on them but having used the "supposed" manual cleaning filters ones I can comment on them a lot.

Me and my sister in law have the same dishwasher: both machines run flawlessly since 2006, obviously both have the same filtering system.
She complained of the smell of her machine while mine was always pristine, what is the difference?
She pre-rinses her dishes and used the ECO cycle and didn't even know that you could remove the filter to clean it if needed, I never use the ECO cycle but just the intensive and normal one according to the load, never pre-rinse anything and check the filter when I top up the salt for the the softener once every 2-3 months.
The filer, even the micro-mesh one is clean 99% of the times except the odd piece like a lemon seed or a little bit of plastic wrapping, not a time where I found rotting food or else.
When I showed my sister in law that she should check (and how to do it) the filters when I removed the thing it was just as clean as mine from debris but it was full of muck because of the low temperature washing!

So that's it, to me it pretty much explains the "smelly" dishwasher problem.

My parents on the other hand have a much more sophisticated dishwasher that has an even lower water use and a similar 3 stage filtration system, and my parents use a lot of olive oil when cooking, so you can imagine how greasy the stuff is when they're done their cooking, plus they almost don't even scrape the plates once finished, the dishwasher is used almost like a bin... and yet the filter needs "cleaning" just once or twice a year as it indeed is self cleaning! No debris at all(even seeds here gets flushed away during the counter-flow draining), the only problem ever is if they use the "bio" low temperature cycle with no prewash by mistake: the filter doesn't clean as well as it stays greasy despite the dishes feeling and looking clean. Anyway this problem is sorted the first time a hi-temperature cycle is run.

And what's a dishwasher cleaner? ;) Never ever used one except for some citric acid for descaling once in a while as a safety measure (dishwashers have built-in softeners as standard)

So all in all, I don't think that the problem resides in the filters but in how the dishwasher is used and as usual ECO doesn't rhyme with clean. (at least to what I consider clean)


Post# 738203 , Reply# 17   2/28/2014 at 06:57 (3,681 days old) by kenmoreguy89 (Valenza Piemonte, Italy- Soon to be US immigrant.)        

kenmoreguy89's profile picture
Gimme a grinder dishwasher machine any day!!! Not the crappy modern euro stuff with those microfilters, ie US new eco:crap and BS like that! Have to agree that while in older models with mamual filter what you may get left could have been no much like today and eventually even no trace for certain foods
like pasta, rice, potatoes or dissolvable fine foods, for others types indeed it was not and of course is not now, to make a few examples, spinach, ground meat from ragú, pieces of scrambled eggs, much of proteic and cellulose stuff... or whatever not easily dissolvable, older models despite being better thsn today still were anyway incomparable to grinding models, and now with todays machines...well don't let me speak please...
i had the luck to use american grinding machines and can confirm here they sure are better cleaning!
But as for everything...they're opinions..
I have changed 6 dishwasher in 5 years, all because of a poor washing, I could use the highest and strongest wash, I could do double washes, i could put three times more the reccomended dose of detergent, I could use the most TOL product available but food both on dishes and filters would be there and would not go away...
I quitted using my 6 months old Bosch and I just leave it there to do mot leave an empty block under the counter, am desperately waiting and seeking to find a real dishwasher possibly with food liquidizer/grinding stuff like a VTG zoppas stovella, i am even thinking of importing an american one as I discovered an italian guy from new jersey that has a business specialized in shipping and that for a thing as big as a washer just ask 500 bucks to ship to Italy ( www.spedizionidagliusa.co...) i would also be happy with an older euro with the removable filter that at least does not leave so much of dirt behind in the machine as todays' ones..
So, if you wanted an experience and opinion, here is mine..
IMO not paragonable at all.... And wondering and not understanding such things the same way, , actually there're many other things i do not understand and i I wonder of today....


Post# 738207 , Reply# 18   2/28/2014 at 07:31 (3,681 days old) by ozzie908 (Lincoln UK)        
Have used many dishwashers over the years but the best by ..

ozzie908's profile picture
far are the F&P dishdrawers I have had for the last 4 years, No matter what is thrown at it it gets everything clean, it uses less water than the sink less electricity than a water heater and even dries plastic items with its drying fan.

I have only on a few occasions taken the filters out to clean and as other have said above you may find an object more than a lump of food I used to rinse everything but now have 2 dogs who do the job nicely.

As for detergent I have always found powder worked better than anything but it is getting harder to find so a quick ebay search found me a 10kg bucket for the cost of £10 including postage this powder turned out to be ground up Finish powerball tabs so even better you often find a unground lump of red powerball in the dispenser but that goes after a couple of cycles but the results are superb glasses shine like they have been polished and stainless steel looks like new so whats not to like?

Austin


Post# 738209 , Reply# 19   2/28/2014 at 07:37 (3,681 days old) by thomasortega (El Pueblo de Nuestra Señora de Los Angeles de Porciúncula)        

Is there so many differences between "Eco" and "Normal" cycles between manufacturers?

My DW does the main wash at 60°C, plus four rinses and the final rinse/drying at 70°C on normal cycle.

On ECO cycle the only difference is that the main wash washes at 65°C. The drying is at 70°C again

There is another cycle, which i think is ridiculous, the "express" cycle. It washes at 40°C, rinses twice and that's all It doesn't have the heated drying rinse. The user manual says it's recommended only for light dirt or for dishes stored for long time. The whole cycle lasts 19 minutes and it's the only timed cycle. (all the others vary according to the water inlet temperature) 


Post# 738230 , Reply# 20   2/28/2014 at 10:31 (3,681 days old) by dj-gabriele ()        
4 rinses?!?

Never seen a dishwasher that does so many.
Even on the most powerful cycle the most I've seen is three, only the last one heated.

Kenmoreguy89, I have no idea what machines you tried but in mine I even wash the removable splash guard covering the oven ceiling and it does come clean and no filter issues whatsoever.

I may suggest you try a semi-professional SMEG machine, you can even it with three phase connection that is by no means A+++ in the pro-cyles and does the pots&pans one in 16 minutes, I'm sure it will suffice your needs.


Post# 738292 , Reply# 21   2/28/2014 at 15:59 (3,681 days old) by mrb627 (Buford, GA)        
Stinky Dishwashers

mrb627's profile picture
Come from the lack of an active vent as most dishwashers use a condensate drying method.

Malcolm


Post# 738297 , Reply# 22   2/28/2014 at 16:16 (3,681 days old) by logixx (Germany)        

logixx's profile picture
I, too, was an uneducated consumer when we got our German-made AEG dishwasher back in 1999. I fell for the A-rated ECO cycle that ran for 150 minutes, could clean practically everything and saved energy. Well, some years after we bough this dishwasher, dishes started to reek - especially glasses. I tried everything: Intensive cycle, chlorine bleach, dishwasher cleaner, different detergents. One day, I was ready to just toss the entire upper rack of stinky (yet visibly clean) dishes out of the window. It eventually got replaced with a more frugal Siemens dishwasher that has practically never been used on Eco and runs on sani-rinse every time (only adds five minutes to the cycle anyway). The Siemens has two sensor cycles for normal and heavy soil and it's all I used except for the occasional fast cycle. The Siemens never developed a funky odor and cleans much better than the AEG.

When I moved, I got another (even more frugal) Siemens off fo eBay. The only time I use the Eco cycle is when I have a light load and even then, I add the speed mode to it, which adds extra water and heat.

Gabriele, my Siemens does three heated rinses when using an Intensive cycle with varioSpeed.


Post# 738408 , Reply# 23   3/1/2014 at 00:36 (3,681 days old) by dj-gabriele ()        

my Siemens does three heated rinses when using an Intensive cycle with varioSpeed.

Wow, what model is that?


Post# 738410 , Reply# 24   3/1/2014 at 00:40 (3,681 days old) by washer111 ()        

Our DishDrawer never gives smelly glasses:

 

I almost religiously use the Delicates 50º (in the Main-Wash) cycle. Final Rinse, after 2 short intermediate rinses is at 60º. As I've stated before, this cycle is identical to Normal, except for the additional rinse. Normal is actually meant to be longer, but some glitch in the machine's programming causes the Main-Wash to cut back almost 15 minutes... So I don't bother with it. 

I never bother with the other cycles that much, since this produces perfectly clean results most of the time, but I do use Heavy (70 or 65 in the Main-Wash) every week or so to help keep the machine clean. Trying not to wear the machine too much, don't want to break it :-)


Post# 738430 , Reply# 25   3/1/2014 at 05:56 (3,681 days old) by logixx (Germany)        

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Gabriele,

it's an A++ model from 2009.


Post# 738587 , Reply# 26   3/1/2014 at 19:02 (3,680 days old) by mielerod69 (Australia)        
Miele PG 8082 SCi

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This is going to be my next dishwasher. The Miele PG 8082 SCi has a 190L/min pump, 20 amp connection and washes at 65°C for the Short and Medium cycles. Short cycle takes 17 mins with hot water connection and uses 17 litres of water.
I currently have a G 5935 SCi and clean the filter after 60 programmes and there is hardly anything in there.

I love the dishwasher cake test they did in the Miele UK showroom. I have actually met the trainer in the video.


CLICK HERE TO GO TO mielerod69's LINK


Post# 738944 , Reply# 27   3/3/2014 at 08:16 (3,678 days old) by dj-gabriele ()        
@logix

And what is the exact model? I'm so curious!

And about the cake test... I did it years ago on the BOL Indesit I have at my rental place (with a full load!) and did the same good results, everybody should try for themselves!


Post# 738952 , Reply# 28   3/3/2014 at 09:24 (3,678 days old) by PassatDoc (Orange County, California)        
ditto what pulsator wrote

I have a 2001 Bosch 300 series with a manual clean filter. Since I descale the machine, as well as my washer once per quarter using citric acid, this task serves as a reminder to check the DW filter as well. Now and then I'll find a stray bit of paper (label came off a jar that was washed). I scrape but do not rinse, and it can take me 5-7 days to fill the machine, so some loads being run are up to a week old. Everything comes out spotless*, and most of the time I find nothing at all in the filter. It's just something to be checked periodically.

 

*I am still using phosphated Finish Powerball tablets. Several years ago, when reports began to surface on this board that phosphates were being removed from DW detergent, I went to Costco and bought/hoarded four of their large canister packages (some packs have 80 tablets, others 100 tablets). In addition, some friends bought a KA with a detergent door that did not easily close over the Powerballs they had purchased at Costco, so I inherited 2 1/2 large canisters from them. Hence I am sitting on what amounts to a five year supply----some of the inherited ones still say "Electrasol" on their wrappers!! Each tab is individually wrapped, and I get good results from the "Electrasol" tabs, which must date from before 2008. I've heard from some that the phosphate-free detergents don't work as well. An appliance store owner advised me to be sure to prime the hot water line at a nearby sink before starting a DW with phosphate-free detergent, because in most machines the first rinse isn't heated by the DW and the temp will equal the temp of your incoming hot water line. 


Post# 738981 , Reply# 29   3/3/2014 at 11:08 (3,678 days old) by appnut (TX)        

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Me? I don't scrape very well. If it's not deemed excessive by me with what's on the plate, directly in it goes. What's left in/on serving dishes gets put into storage containers for the fridge and whatever is left on those, goes right into the dishwasher) Hence what constitutes part of the parameters of a BobLoad. Why should I scrub out the starchy remnants of rice on the bottom of a sauce pan. The dishwasher will take care of it. (I love hearing rice being ground up and purged from the soil collector). That's what I'm used to. As Gansky1 remarked to a salesman at TNFM when these started showing up in U.S. brands as Whirlpool "I have a friend in Texas. These would never do with how he loads a dishwasher." My appliances have to PERFORM for me thank you very much. And most of you would probably deem it abuse. Wes (Volsboy1) and I are cut from the same dish cloth lol.

Post# 738999 , Reply# 30   3/3/2014 at 12:18 (3,678 days old) by logixx (Germany)        

logixx's profile picture
Gabriele, it's a SN58M552DE made in September of 2009.

I have often wondered about this "Cake Test" videos. Are these cakes mostly made of frosting? I have seen a Whirlpool commercial with chocolate cake and its looked like a lot of frosting. How much actual dough do these cakes have?


Post# 739018 , Reply# 31   3/3/2014 at 13:53 (3,678 days old) by henene4 (Heidenheim a.d. Brenz (Germany))        
Next sommer...

... I may try this with our Bosch slimline. And maybe one of my belover choclate cakes will be used. But isn't their a dedicated cake which is used to test the backing abilities of ovens here in Germany? Wouldn't it make sense to use this for such a test....

Post# 739122 , Reply# 32   3/3/2014 at 22:50 (3,678 days old) by volsboy1 (East Tenn Smoky mountains )        

volsboy1's profile picture

They suck bad removable filters I can't stand them.I will not buy a dishwasher that will not pass my 1 quart of hard cat food test.

I dump it in the bottom and if there is anything left I will sell it.My L.G. can barley do it but there is particles everywhere

I did the same with my 1984 Kitchenaid Superba 21 and all of it was gone by the first pre-wash not one particle left anywhere.

I cleaned up that K-Aid there is no rust anywhere that was dirt.The heaters and everything is perfect in that machine

this machine was never used maybe once or twice a year that is it.They make these new dishwasher's and use little 60watt

motors for there main pump now and 5 years ago those were drain motors.They make them run with very little water and make

them run for 4 hours or more to save energy, but this makes no sense in the long run.Dishwasher's used to last 14 years or so I have

been replacing them every 3 or 4 years now.How can that be more efficient throwing away dishwasher's in dumps or having a dishwasher with more power and use a little more water and a 50 min cycle?I tested my K-Aid filled it full with everything

did not rinse nothing threw in a cake and it was all gone in the light cycle everything was.The dishes were spotless and everything

clean and dry in about 40 mins.Yup I am like BOB I wish I could mount my disposer in my dishwasher...LOL


Post# 740894 , Reply# 33   3/10/2014 at 10:54 (3,671 days old) by alineber ()        
Volsboy1 (Wes), appnut (Bob), & washman

You three guys are great! I'm not going to prewash dishes either. If a dishwasher can't cut the mustard or takes 2 to 4 hours, then I don't want it. BTW, I have done my own dishwasher tests just like Wes and Bob. I can take a cookie sheet pan, with burnt pizza remains, throw it in my 1993 KitchenAid and in 1 hr it's completely removed.

Post# 740913 , Reply# 34   3/10/2014 at 14:02 (3,671 days old) by whirlcool (Just North Of Houston, Texas)        

A few months ago we put a 2 qt pan full of cooked pasta in the DW that was still about 1/2 full of food. Except for a few bits around the filter intake at the bottom of our Maytag it got rid of it all. No debris on any dishes.

Post# 742403 , Reply# 35   3/16/2014 at 14:58 (3,665 days old) by jlbrazil (brazil)        
Cleaning filters..

Guys, I really have nothing to complain about this "new" system. I've got a 2010 Whirlpool dishwasher (From the time Whirlpool built dishwashers in Germany) and I clean the filters like every 3-4 months. When I bought the machine I used to clean after each wash, then after each week, month.. One time I forgot to clean the filter for 6 months and it was.. clean.
After that I stopped to worry about cleaning it. lol

On the rinses, I only use it on the Normal (auto) cycle. On the average it does 1 cold and 1 hot rinse. When things are very dirty it does 2 cold rinses and 1 hot (60-70º) rinse. The Normal cycle varies from 1:10 all the way up to 2:10.
The model is almost like the one in the picture, but with a smaller display.


Post# 742552 , Reply# 36   3/16/2014 at 21:22 (3,665 days old) by washman (o)        
When phosphates were finally removed

performance died until the manufacturers could come up with something that remotely did the job.

I posted in another thread that very issue with an old school Kitchenaid that suddenly stopped cleaning well. I ran vinegar, dishwasher magic, the works and it just did not clean as well. Even had a guy tear it apart only to find nothing wrong.

With the dishwasher that is.

There was everything wrong with the Finish I used. I noted in the post that the directions clearly stated make sure inlet water is 140 and to fill BOTH cups completely. Which I did yet it did not really improve matters. I ended up having to buy Lemishine to put in the main wash cycle, manually I might add, just to get the dishes clean. The reason? All phosphates were removed!

Which reinforces my take on the "eco" craze that has everyone's attention these days. Sure, on one end I suppose mother earth is thanking us for removing phosphates but on the other side, I have to use twice the amount of detergent which means I buy MORE of the stuff, not less, which means Finish makes MORE to restock the shelves at the store and to top it all off, I have to invest more money to buy boosters to do what the "new improved eco sanctioned" detergent cannot do.

Which is clean my dishes.


Post# 742556 , Reply# 37   3/16/2014 at 21:31 (3,665 days old) by washer111 ()        
Agree with you Washman

At least on this front!

 

The thing is, its NOT domestic Phosphate usage that causes the environmental impact, rather the careless and frivolous usage by farmers (and/or industry) who don't bother calculating and experimenting with products or trying other means of improving soil quality (Altering soil pH, resting landing etc.).

I think the actual figures state that since Phosphates were banned in one of the Washington's, the river is still choked with algae from farmers and factories using Phosphate products.

 

If it were more economically viable, I would love to get several cartons of Finish detergent here in Australia to ship over to you guys. We're lucky and still seem to have about 30% Phosphates in Finish and Fairy products. I've just switched back to Finish after a "hiatus" with an "Earth" detergent and "Morning Fresh."

The Finish out-cleans both products and smells nicer too. It also doesn't clog the machine with foam like the Earth product does...

And I'm talking about results with a modern machine* on a SOFTENED water supply. I can't imagine what those here in town without a softener are dealing with...

 

*As you're probably well aware, an F&P DishDrawer from 2011. Use the "Delicates" cycle, since its only an hour and gives me three rinses (I guess Eco-Nazis don't expect people to wash delicates, so they don't screw around with it!)


Post# 742562 , Reply# 38   3/16/2014 at 22:08 (3,665 days old) by alineber ()        
Thank you both

Washman and Washer111

 

I agree 100% with what you guys said.

 

The thing is, its NOT domestic Phosphate usage that causes the environmental impact, rather the careless and frivolous usage by farmers (and/or industry) who don't bother calculating and experimenting with products or trying other means of improving soil quality (Altering soil pH, resting landing etc.).

I think the actual figures state that since Phosphates were banned in one of the Washington's, the river is still choked with algae from farmers and factories using Phosphate products. 

 

Hear, Hear!!!!  I've been trying to tell people about this.  Some will listen and some won't.


Post# 743194 , Reply# 39   3/19/2014 at 06:09 (3,663 days old) by zodawash (Lincolnshire,United Kingdom)        
Filter cleaning

zodawash's profile picture
I've never had to clean the filters in my last two dishwashers and I don't rinse the plates or bother too much about the state the stuff goes in. Last machine was an LG and my current an Amica both with manual filters. They are always clean so no worries. Good quality detergent always used.

Post# 743204 , Reply# 40   3/19/2014 at 08:10 (3,662 days old) by whitetub (Montreal, Canada)        

In this Youtube video, around 2:45, you will see how the filters work.


Personnally, I have a Bosch dishwasher, and I clean the filters about every 2 months, just to make them nice and shiny, but I never find any pieces of food in there.


CLICK HERE TO GO TO whitetub's LINK



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