Thread Number: 52592
70's Kenmore Suds model
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Post# 748548   4/7/2014 at 19:33 (3,643 days old) by akronman (Akron/Cleveland Ohio)        

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It's mine and sitting in my garage, out of the rain. The seller said it's been in use in the house since the 70's, his new house has visible laundry near the kitchen and his wife demanded new. This was in use until 2 weeks ago!

Model 110.73570100, serial number C52803750. So what's the date of birth?





Post# 748549 , Reply# 1   4/7/2014 at 19:35 (3,643 days old) by akronman (Akron/Cleveland Ohio)        
more

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Here's the original Craigslist pic, it turns out the messy timer area is just soap/crap, wipes right off. And the water temp button broke off when the seller moved it from the basement, I'll find a new one.

Post# 748552 , Reply# 2   4/7/2014 at 19:41 (3,643 days old) by akronman (Akron/Cleveland Ohio)        
console

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Please excuse my rotten photo skills-----You can see SUDS at the 6 o'clock osition, no other buttons for suds. The seller said they never used suds, just stuck both hoses down the drainline. I guess it automatically saves suds every normal cycle???? Then if you do want them returned, you make sure you already plugged one basin and then set the dial here?
The next pic will show the soak knob, helps explain the timer? All of this is while it sits in my garage, no hookups out there. And obviously I haven't wiped a thing clean


Post# 748553 , Reply# 3   4/7/2014 at 19:43 (3,643 days old) by akronman (Akron/Cleveland Ohio)        
Soak

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SOAK or SOAK&WASH.

Post# 748554 , Reply# 4   4/7/2014 at 19:45 (3,643 days old) by akronman (Akron/Cleveland Ohio)        
temps

akronman's profile picture
the knob broke off with the stem inside it, damn. I'm already on SearsPArtsDirect on another screen to find a new one--

Post# 748555 , Reply# 5   4/7/2014 at 19:46 (3,643 days old) by mickeyd (Hamburg NY)        

mickeyd's profile picture
That's a really nice model. And thank God for trendy wives who just have to have something new!

Mark, you've been around for a while, so you know the first 2 digits after the 110. are always the year of production for a Kenmore--right?

So it's a 1973 edition.

As for month and date, I don't know how to do that yet. Maybe this time I'll pay attention and learn how to do the month, day and location--all of which are hidden in the code.

No matter that it's not a Suds; you'll make her recycle anyway.


Post# 748557 , Reply# 6   4/7/2014 at 19:49 (3,643 days old) by akronman (Akron/Cleveland Ohio)        
Agitator

akronman's profile picture
Dark gold Penta-Vane, of which I've heard tell. I'm getting ahead of my self here, but wouldn't this extra capacity mid 70's KM be eligible for their early double-action agitator? Some machines I keep pristine, some I swap around to see all the options. And WOW is the tub deeper than my 1960 Whirlpool, huge!

How did the same 29" cabinet fit this larger tub? Did they just lengthen the suspension rods, drop the motor and tranny closer to the floor?


Post# 748564 , Reply# 7   4/7/2014 at 20:01 (3,643 days old) by akronman (Akron/Cleveland Ohio)        
Mickey

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Mickey--reread it buddy, it IS A SUDS MODEL!!!!!!

I know the 73 is a signifier, but at times they continued a model into th next year, I have a 63 model dryer from Kenmore with an April 64 build, it was a popular model so they just kept on.

This one looks pretty easy to get up and running, surface rust near the base, to be expected, and the owners never wiped down a damn thing, oh well.

You are right, I'd have found a dry agitate timer spot and sucked suds anyhows, but this is a suds model from the factory!

I canb't wait to get her downstairs and check out all the soak only,. soak to wash, sudsing, etc, holy cow.



Post# 748565 , Reply# 8   4/7/2014 at 20:02 (3,643 days old) by akronman (Akron/Cleveland Ohio)        
dirty

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quite dirty, but it has solenoid FS and LCB dispensers.

Post# 748567 , Reply# 9   4/7/2014 at 20:04 (3,643 days old) by akronman (Akron/Cleveland Ohio)        
what the heck is

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this? Upper left corner under the lid, and has a small hole in the rim. Hmmm......

Post# 748568 , Reply# 10   4/7/2014 at 20:08 (3,643 days old) by akronman (Akron/Cleveland Ohio)        
underneath

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70's era braces for the transmission, a capacitor for the motor, the suds valve installed along the back, all stuff my 60 WP doesn't have.

But where is the Magic Filter?

To me, for an Ohio basement for 40 years, the base is about what I expected.


Post# 748572 , Reply# 11   4/7/2014 at 20:21 (3,643 days old) by mickeyd (Hamburg NY)        

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I see that, Mark. What a fat toady I am. LOLOLOL.

Go so lost thinking about such a whole club-favored machine and the number stuff, I forgot the thread title.

Even as I wrote the sentence, there was a little ping in my brain, but I ignored it.

I love it.

All those features make it seem like a Lady K. And a REAL Suds. I'm bubbling over white with envy.


Post# 748580 , Reply# 12   4/7/2014 at 20:52 (3,643 days old) by akronman (Akron/Cleveland Ohio)        
Appliance 411

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says it was made in July 1975

CLICK HERE TO GO TO akronman's LINK


Post# 748583 , Reply# 13   4/7/2014 at 20:59 (3,643 days old) by DADoES (TX, U.S. of A.)        

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Serial = 28th week of 1975.

The gizmo in #9 is a detergent dispenser, which is required as part of the automatic soak-to-wash function.  It's apparently missing -- I've never seen one but as I understand, a removable reservoir cup with a flap that opens on the bottom sits atop the block. A solenoid-activated pin kicks out of the hole in the rim to open the flap so the detergent falls out.


Post# 748586 , Reply# 14   4/7/2014 at 21:18 (3,643 days old) by mickeyd (Hamburg NY)        
The answers to your suds questions are Yes and Yes.

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Also noticed the Suds is located just before the soak without an OFF position suggesting that it goes right from Suds to Soak. Haven't seen this maneuver before. So cool, and so flexible. Think of all you could do with a really dirty load. Return the suds, go right to soak & wash. Then use that new liquor for the next load.

I have never seen this before, Mark; in fact, when ya think about it, Suds models in machines of this period don't show up all that often.

I just studied the control panel more carefully. There is a longer white line after the suds and before the 22. Maybe there just wasn't any room for OFF, and it does indeed shut off after the return.
But then again, maybe not. Now I'm really excited to see what it does when you get 'er rollin.


Post# 748588 , Reply# 15   4/7/2014 at 21:23 (3,643 days old) by Kenmoreguy64 (Charlotte, NC)        

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Mark -

So glad you got this. I guess I spurred two menbers in one weekend to grab a machine off Craigslist, almost like a washer pusher, lol.

Let's see, in no sort of order, here's what I can tell you:

1) Its a 1975 model. After 1973, the model numbers read differently than they did 1973 and earlier. To the right of the decimal, the first digit is the decade. So, 1970s. Second digit is the application: 1= 24-inch standard, 2= 29-inch standard, 3= 29-inch suds, 4= compact, and 5= 24-inch suds. Thus your machine is a 29-inch suds model, which we already knew. The 5 is the year digit. The 701 is the series, and the 00 is the engineering revision. There were very few 1975 models (like four or so only) and most didn't get any revisions before the 76s came out.

2) The soak selector works as follows: select soak only and the machine will stop after the drain and spin after the pre-wash segment. Select Soak and wash, and the machine will continue on into the Normal cycle.

3) Do you need just a knob for the temp, or the whole switch? I have boo-coos of knobs, one can have your name on it, just ask. If a switch, the same replacement switch works in machines all the way back to 1960 or so. I can dig up the part number if you need it, but if you'd like used, there are lots out there, I probably have one of those as well.

4) The self-cleaning filter is the tub-mounted variety, probably the best overall of the SC filters on Kenmores. Maybe John knows better but these seemed very effective and not all that troublesome. They needed a minimum of plumbing as well as compared to others.

5) That fixture in the left upper corner is for the powdered detergent dispenser. They are almost never included with a machine.

6) Tread lightly around the bleach and softener bezel - they can be brittle and then don't secure themselves once the snap clips fail.

7) These big tubs fit in the machine just as you said, they deepened the tub and thus the suspension rods, and dropped the entire baseplate and everything under it closer to the floor. BUT, they also made the tub wider. If you look at the cabinet, there are some half-moon shaped indentations in the front and sides of the cabinet to allow the tub to fit into the cabinet.

8) A Dual-Action agitator will fit with no issue in your machine. Sears tried to sell them in their catalogs for a number of years in fact for retrofit. Just make sure you have one with the large capacity auger. The standard version uses the same base agitator but a shorter auger. There is little to no chance you'd find a standard version (quite uncommon), but you never know.

Cool machine Mark - I never saw one of these in a suds model, but that's the midwest for you. Your machine may tie one of mine for the nastiest Kenmore of the week prize. Mine I rescued from a filthy installation in 2010. I wrote a whole thread about how disgusting it was. People actually expect these machines to clean for them? Really? Try keeping it clean then!!

Can't wait to see how you come to like this machine. Congratulations to you AND the machine, I think it landed softly in new digs.

Gordon




This post was last edited 04/08/2014 at 00:19
Post# 748601 , Reply# 16   4/7/2014 at 22:30 (3,643 days old) by akronman (Akron/Cleveland Ohio)        
Thanks

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to you all for the info!!!
Dadoes---SearsParts diagrams call it an engine???? thanks for the explanation, yes a soak-to-wash cycle would need more detergent. Does anyone even have a picture of such a cup?

Gordon--#3--I have the knob, I found a new switch for $14 on Ebay, already ordered it, thanks.
#4Tubmounted self-clean filter----not sure what you mean. So it ain't the magic filter I've seen in late 60's models, simply plumbed in past the pump? As for filtering, if you can't watch it splash and work and get dirty, what's the fun? lol. I do want to figure out what this model has, but I'll lose interest in 3 loads if I don't get to watch it splash and get dirty hands emptying it!

#9----DA Agitator----you got a PN? I will for sure be searching for that!

Mickey---I will definitely check out the suds behavior and report back exact findings-I bet you got it right.

Gordon--you said in the original CL thread that the timer still has the extra rinse. Check out the big OFF section at the end of Normal. Is it likley in that section, and I need to find the exact unused contacts on the timer and put a switch on the back of the console?

If I don't stop, I'll ask too many questions before it's even indoors. G'night


Post# 748606 , Reply# 17   4/7/2014 at 22:43 (3,643 days old) by DADoES (TX, U.S. of A.)        

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I've seen that "engine" reference there on several parts that have nothing to do with an engine ... it's apparently a glitch in the database.

Interestingly, the lint filter shows to still be available.  I've not seen that style but it apparently mounts to side of the outer tub, where the side-check valve would ordinarily be fitted.


Post# 748619 , Reply# 18   4/8/2014 at 00:12 (3,643 days old) by rp2813 (Sannazay)        
Detergent Dispenser

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I had the detergent dispenser from my mom's machine and sent it to a guy somewhere in New England who I never see here anymore or I'd remember his name.  He had set his machine aside as a future project but I never heard from him or saw any posts about it.  That was probably five years ago.  So there's one out there somewhere.

 

It's a triangular shaped white plastic/resin assembly that hangs off of the block at left rear.  The detergent trough is suspended over the tub and is contoured at the rear to clear/conform to the curve of the tub opening.  The bottom flap of the trough is spring loaded.  A rod pops out of the hanger block when activated by the solenoid, and triggers the bottom of the dispenser to flip 270 degrees, allowing the powder to drop into the tub the moment the Normal wash cycle agitation begins. 

 

When "Soak & Wash" is selected, it provides an automatic sequence that begins with the Soak cycle, proceeds into the Pre-Wash cycle, then continues into the Normal cycle with detergent drop.   I think an Extra Rinse is called for when using this feature.  The Pre-Wash doesn't rinse, so you're adding even more detergent to the already soapy clothing via the dispenser.  Then again, Kenmores provided those nice spray rinses during both spins, so you could possibly get away without an extra one.

 

As I recall, there were also small white dots on the timer dial that marked settings for things like "Spin Only" on the Normal and perhaps Delicate cycles, which didn't have them clearly marked the way Permanent Press does.  I can't tell from the pictures if they continued with those markers on the '75 models.

 

I think my mom's machine was originally outfitted with a "magic filter," which looked a lot different from the one pictured above.  Due to its flexing, it developed a leak and the replacement part was the new style.  It never had to be replaced again.

 

Others have said so, but I knew and used virtually this same machine over the course of 25 years, was always impressed with its functionality and quiet operation, and consider it a fine Kenmore specimen for its period.

 

 


Post# 748622 , Reply# 19   4/8/2014 at 00:35 (3,643 days old) by Kenmoreguy64 (Charlotte, NC)        
Tub vs. cabinet mounted self-clean lint filters

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Kenmore had a variety of self-cleaning filters over the years. Excluding the unique filter on the 59 (?) Lady K, most of these were mounted in the back left corner of the cabinet as you face the machine. Early filters had marbles in them (how did someone think of that anyway?), then there were the cone shaped filters which is probably what you remember Ralph that burst or cracked. These were replaced by an adaptation of a Whirlpool only filter which fit the same place as the cone, but resembled a flying saucer space ship. I think the saucer filters were used in KMs only as replacement parts, not on the assembly line. They had no moving parts, and were very durable. I've heard the same thing --- install one of those and you'll have no further issues.

After that era came the tub mounted filter, which has much the same internal design as the saucer filter, just mounted on the side of the tub, which meant fewer hoses. The tub mount filter uses only one additional hose over a machine without a filter at all. These started in 1975, approximately.


Mark, the second rinse is indeed in that giant off at the end of the normal cycle. It simply needs to be jumper wired to energize contacts, but as to which contacts to jumper, I'd have to see a wiring diagram, most likely from a 1974 70 which used the same timer. I do have a '74 70, so maybe when I dig it out later on?

Gordon


Post# 748690 , Reply# 20   4/8/2014 at 13:50 (3,642 days old) by rp2813 (Sannazay)        

rp2813's profile picture

Gordon, yes it was the cone shaped filter.  It was sort of opaque as I recall.  I remember questioning the guy at the parts counter when he handed me the new and improved replacement filter and he showed me how the fittings for the hoses were in exactly the same place.  It really was a drastic change in design from the filter I removed (which had failed probably inside of five years), and it proved itself to be far superior to the original.


Post# 748729 , Reply# 21   4/8/2014 at 18:24 (3,642 days old) by mickeyd (Hamburg NY)        
The Dead Zone

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Many reports from members about activating dead spots on their timers, usually agitation in the area that would have said "Suds." But this is a brave new world on your machine with a dead zone in the Extra Rinse spot. Even though you haven't wired anything yet, it might be cool to see if there is any action there, especially if you explore the space with a satisfied water level* in the tub before you venture out. So exciting. Of course there may be nothing there at all, but it 's worth a try.

* On my 77 WP, the dead zone works only if there is enough water in the tub for a LO level wash. If I go there dry, I get nothing. The 63 LK agitates in the dead zone with or without water which I love because it gives a 4 minute wash followed by an infinite soak in as little water as I want.

So try it wet and dry, Buddy, and let us know. Thanks. Better than Star Trek's : "Going boldly where only washermen dare."


Post# 748752 , Reply# 22   4/8/2014 at 20:38 (3,642 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md)        
Outer Tub Side Mounted Self-Cleaning Lint Filter

combo52's profile picture
This was the last true [ plumbed in ] self-cleaning filter design that was used on WP built BD KMs and WP models. It was also the first SCF that WP built washers used that was the exactly the same on both KM and WP badged machines.

The first ever SCLFs appeared on the 1958 LKMs, this filter was used through 1963 on LKMS and by 63 had made it way down into the KM line-up of models to at least the 70 series. This aluminum bodied filter filled with glass marbles was replaced in 1964 with a nylon bodied filter with black rubber like balls in it. then a 2nd version of this filter was used that just had a different hose port orientation. Then around 1970 the KM washers got a new cheaper to build filter that continued to work well but had serious problems with the flexible plastic hinge area splitting and causing really BIG leaks.

Backing up a little WP introduced their first SCLF on their 1964 Imperial Mark 12 washers, this filter was completely different that the orignal KM filter with the little balls in it. Instead it was a maze type filter that used a rubber membrane that flexed when back washed to release the lint and allow it to be flushed down the drain. WP also replaced this filter with a cheaper to build filter around 1970 and even though this 2nd generation WP only filter would sometimes fail and clog it never had the flooding problems that the KM filters experienced.

To solve the huge problem that KM washers had with their 2nd generation filters causing floods, WP built a modified version of the very successful 1st generation WP filter to fit all the KM washers that were originally built with this troublesome filter.

WP went on to introduce nylon bodied filter designed after their orignal SCF design around 1972 that was part of the pump protector and molded directly on the bottom of the pump protector [ Sears often called the pump protector a Pin Trap ].

At some point in the 1970s the new side mounted SCFs appeared and both WP and KM used the same one for the first time.

Interesting points to keep in mind.

All of these SCFs were highly effective and were superior to any other filtering system used on any other TL automatics built in the US.

All these WP built SCFs had moving parts.

The main reason these great filters were discontinued was the advent of phosphate-free detergents which if not used in sufficient quantities caused mineral build-ups in the washers water system the rendered the SCF ineffective and lead to clogged filters and service calls. They were also discontinued because of the cost of building and other manufactures were getting away with cheap to build filters that didn't do much of anything [ MT, GE, HP, Norge, SQ, and Frigidaire ] to name the major ones.

The basket mounted filters that WP changed to for most of the last BD washers in the 1980s [ which had no moving parts ] could be somewhat effective, but since the washer did not have to drain through these new cheaper-to-build-filters it no longer mattered if people clogged them with minerals with bad washing pratices, the washer would still go on at least functioning.

John L.


Post# 749182 , Reply# 23   4/10/2014 at 17:39 (3,640 days old) by akronman (Akron/Cleveland Ohio)        
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It's still in the garage, but I've done some cleaning and gotten pics of the wiring diagram. I will get the washer into the house this weekend and check out lots of stuff before ANY remodeling, but wanted to post this now if anyone (named Gordon) wanted to see if they can suggest what timer contacts to use for a switch for the 2nd rinse option. I wont ruin the console, I'll instead install a toggle switch on the back of the console, out of sight.

Patience, it takes a few pics to get the closeups of the diagram. This pic shows dotted lines for options, and shows #31 and T-V. Maybe Contact #31 and some wire color T with V??? stripes???

John---I had the machine on it's side and finally saw the tub-mounted filter. I'll have more questions on that when it's indoors, thanks for the info. I do very much like filtering, but I wonder if I will ignore it if it isn't a chore for each load. I'm kinda used to that chore!


Post# 749187 , Reply# 24   4/10/2014 at 17:49 (3,640 days old) by akronman (Akron/Cleveland Ohio)        
timer diagram

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Near the N of warNing------

T-V, 2nd Rinse , T B, Cam 2.

t and b mean top and bottom cam followers?


Also, side note, it does spin out after pre-wash, you can see in the picture here. That's why the detergent dispenser would come in handy once in a blue moon. It also kicks in at the start of Delicate and Perma-Press, of course.


Post# 749188 , Reply# 25   4/10/2014 at 17:52 (3,640 days old) by akronman (Akron/Cleveland Ohio)        
more

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For the archives.
This is clearly labeled May 1975 on the transmission, and Sept 18,1975 in handwriting on the diagram.

That is THE CLEAREST picture I haev ever taken, no camera bug here.


Post# 749190 , Reply# 26   4/10/2014 at 17:53 (3,640 days old) by akronman (Akron/Cleveland Ohio)        
more

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Here's a blurry pic of a wire from the timer, with my favorite washing machine word

Post# 749191 , Reply# 27   4/10/2014 at 17:57 (3,640 days old) by akronman (Akron/Cleveland Ohio)        
Timer

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Still fully installed. I've gotten into numerous timers before, and can solder and strip/poke/crimp contacts, etc. So I will be turning this into a 2nd Rinse Option machine. The timer ladder diagram shows no spray after the second rinse, so this machine will soon become my terry cloth towel machine with me adding FS during the final fill. Perfect.


It's still in the garage, I am WAY ahead of myself.


Post# 749193 , Reply# 28   4/10/2014 at 18:03 (3,640 days old) by akronman (Akron/Cleveland Ohio)        
detergent dispenser

akronman's profile picture
solenoid plunger assembly under the lid. Sort of over-engineered, ain't it, to do detergent this way? But if there's no recirc pump and waterfall filter, then they lost that way to dispense.

If anyone has a picture of the dispenser, please post, thanks


Post# 749195 , Reply# 29   4/10/2014 at 18:08 (3,640 days old) by akronman (Akron/Cleveland Ohio)        
tub top

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I have seen far worse. The snubber assy is firm and it's hard to push the tub around. It makes me wonder if I need to check for problems on my 1960 WP, it's looser for sure, and heavy loads produce a knock while it gets up to speed.

The agitator says PENTAVANE across the top, but to me looks chopped off, a bit. Would the same agitator have had a FS dispenser on top, in other models?


Post# 749210 , Reply# 30   4/10/2014 at 19:30 (3,640 days old) by Kenmoreguy64 (Charlotte, NC)        

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Mark -

In no certain order:

1) The timer is already set-up for a second rinse as you now know. I would have said before seeing your pictures that I suspect all that is needed is a couple more wires added to the harness to activate the motor run circuit, the wig-wag circuits, the mixing valve, etc. to take the second rinse from dead to functional. BUT, seeing the diagram, it looks now like all you would have to do is install an on/off throw switch in what is now the wire that tells the timer that the second rinse sw says "Off". In other words the machine is now permanently wired with the second rinse off. Just add an "on" switch and the rest should work, at least I'm thinking that.

2) Yes, there aren't usually spray rinses in the second rinse in this era machine. This was not a highly common BD option, so having a machine with a 2nd rinse capable timer without using that feature is somewhat unusual.

3) Pre-wash --- starting in the very late 1960s, Sears sold a great many machines with Pre-wash cycles. They always, at least in belt-drives, drain and a short spin prior to end of cycle. Not nearly as many models had an automatic advance option into the Normal cycle from Pre-Wash / Pre-Soak.

4) Agitator - Yes, this and the other large capacity agitator of the same period, the Penta-Vane, both abruptly end with a wide flat agitator cap. This is how the same transmission (from late 1973 onward) is used in both the large and standard capacity models.....the high water level is relatively MUCH higher up the agitator shaft in the large cap models.

To allow for agitator mounted softener dispensers, an extension is added via a different agitator bolt. This extension allows use of the same softener dispenser that was used in standard tub machines. I surely have a picture somewhere...

I hope this sheds some light.

Gordon



Post# 749217 , Reply# 31   4/10/2014 at 20:50 (3,640 days old) by rp2813 (Sannazay)        

rp2813's profile picture

Mark, can you post a better shot of the agitator if it's not too much trouble?  It sure looks like a Penta-Swirl so I'm curious about what the rest of it looks like.

 

Thanks,

 

Ralph


Post# 749219 , Reply# 32   4/10/2014 at 21:07 (3,640 days old) by DADoES (TX, U.S. of A.)        

dadoes's profile picture
 
Referencing pic #6, it is a Penta-Swirl.

Pic of Penta-Swirl (top) vs. Penta-Vane (bottom).


Post# 749230 , Reply# 33   4/10/2014 at 23:09 (3,640 days old) by rp2813 (Sannazay)        

rp2813's profile picture

Thanks for sending me back to those earlier pix.  When I saw the top portion in reply #25, I recognized it as a Penta-Swirl, but seeing the PENTAVANE referenced in all caps made me doubt myself.


Post# 749272 , Reply# 34   4/11/2014 at 08:29 (3,639 days old) by akronman (Akron/Cleveland Ohio)        
I was wrong

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It is clearly PENTA SWIRL. I can't wait to get it up and running, but then I will also start a hunt for a dual action agitator

Post# 749274 , Reply# 35   4/11/2014 at 09:06 (3,639 days old) by Kenmoreguy64 (Charlotte, NC)        

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Mark -

Go to an established used appliance shop, you won't have a hard time finding a DA unless they cleared out their BD parts already. We may have to give you some pics so you know what you're looking for vs. the array of similar looking DAs that fit only DD machines.

Incidentally, the gold Penta-Swirls are quite rare, as they were used only in TWO models, the 1974 70 and the 1975 70 (yours). The only other 74/75 model that used a Penta-Swirl was the 74 Lady K and they were white. In 1976, all the Penta-Swirl models, of which I think there were four or five, all used white ones.

Gordon


Post# 749280 , Reply# 36   4/11/2014 at 10:03 (3,639 days old) by Tomturbomatic (Beltsville, MD)        

One neat thing John showed me about suds-saver washers with the self-cleaning filter is that the filter does not flush out the lint at the beginning of the wash drain but holds it until the spin begins to keep the wash water from being full of lint. There was a clunk when the suds valve closed and then the filter discharged the lint into the sink through the rinse hose.

Post# 749294 , Reply# 37   4/11/2014 at 12:41 (3,639 days old) by rp2813 (Sannazay)        

rp2813's profile picture

Ah, Tom, I think I know that clunk you described.  I remember it as a sort of ratcheting up sound as the machine launched into spin.  I never knew what that sound signified.


Post# 749308 , Reply# 38   4/11/2014 at 14:10 (3,639 days old) by Yogitunes (New Jersey)        

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this should be the Dual-Action agitator that your looking for.....

although a little pricey....just keep shopping for a better price, just so you have an idea of what to look for....


CLICK HERE TO GO TO Yogitunes's LINK on eBay


Post# 749309 , Reply# 39   4/11/2014 at 14:17 (3,639 days old) by Yogitunes (New Jersey)        

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this one should fit you machine as well......some kick ass vanes....

CLICK HERE TO GO TO Yogitunes's LINK on eBay


Post# 749310 , Reply# 40   4/11/2014 at 14:18 (3,639 days old) by Yogitunes (New Jersey)        

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you would have to add the block....but this Super Roto Swirl will work too....

CLICK HERE TO GO TO Yogitunes's LINK on eBay


Post# 749311 , Reply# 41   4/11/2014 at 14:23 (3,639 days old) by Yogitunes (New Jersey)        

yogitunes's profile picture
and here's the block......

Gordon can give you a list of what will fit these machines.....interesting of how each one performs


CLICK HERE TO GO TO Yogitunes's LINK on eBay


Post# 749323 , Reply# 42   4/11/2014 at 14:37 (3,639 days old) by mrb627 (Buford, GA)        
Agitator Swap?

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Don't be ridiculous! That Penta-Swirl is a great performer and should remain where it is!!

Malcolm


Post# 749328 , Reply# 43   4/11/2014 at 14:50 (3,639 days old) by rp2813 (Sannazay)        
"That Penta-Swirl . . . should remain where it is!!"

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I have to agree with Malcom.

 

The Quiet Pak and Penta-Swirl go hand in hand.  Not only is the machine nearly silent mechanically, but the Penta-Swirl provides a refined agitating action with minimal sloshing sounds.

 

I suppose I'm overly biased, considering our washer of this same model replaced the horrific '67 Snorge, which prevented watching TV in the adjacent den whenever it was running.  Once the Kenmore showed up, we discovered what civilized living was all about.


Post# 749395 , Reply# 44   4/11/2014 at 21:08 (3,639 days old) by Kenmoreguy64 (Charlotte, NC)        

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Martin is correct about the agitators - all three will fit fine. It would be neat to hear a quiet pak machine running with some of these agitators in them. I don't know of any model sold in a 29" machine with the quiet belt.

The Roto-Swirl would be a real challenge in an original sized large tub machine. Full water comes up to about 1.5 inches on the neck of the Penta-Swirl. Imagine the same from the top of the Roto-Swirl...water would be above the ribs onto the smooth part of the top, where a scrubber often goes.

Agreed on the price of the DA - WAAAAY too expensive. That's not a bad seller on eBay, but sometimes they get delusional. Tomorrow they'll list another DA for $12.00 though, seen it many times.

Gordon


Post# 749463 , Reply# 45   4/12/2014 at 07:31 (3,638 days old) by akronman (Akron/Cleveland Ohio)        
Thanks

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For all the advice.

Martin---thanks for the PN# for a DA agitator, I'll look locally for someting less than $112, a lot less! But first I'll check it out as built. Ideally I want the Penta-Swirl it has and a DA for occasional fun.

Gordon---I am interesetd in the "Quiet Pak," very different from my other Kenmores. Besides the skinny belt I noticed, what other changes from a regular model? And with the timer and harnesses out of the console, the wiring job for 2nd rinse is clear as a bell. I'll wait a week of normal operation before the switch, and post about it. Very conveninet of WP/KM to use the same time for many models, all clearly labeled. And thank God the diagram is in great shape!

Also, More timer news, I 've been reading the entire diagram with a magnifying glass---there's a note about a wiring change to make if "you want all suds, up to 25 gallons, to be saved." Taking valve power from the full instead of empty side of the level switch? Who knows. But my laundry tub won't hold that!

The washer should be indoors today, then I have a busy evening out with friends, then Sunday will be my first day running the machine----

So far I've dismantled and cleaned the entire cruddy dirty console and installed the new temp switch, everything sparkles on the console, all else awaits.

Ovrphil---thanks for the original posting, do I holler at you if it leaks? Lol

John---I gotta see the plumbing/hoses/suds valve operating before I'll understand that filter system---


Besides no console light--what is this missing from a Lady K? It has soak, pre-wash, soak to wash, 2 speeds, all the dispensers, QuietPak, huge tub, 3 cycles. If the LK was all pre-determined automatic buttons, then I'm happier with this machine.

Thanks
Mark



Post# 749472 , Reply# 46   4/12/2014 at 08:05 (3,638 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md)        
Cool 1975 KM Washer

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Hi Mark, the main difference on the narrow belt machines were all the pulleys are different and of coerce the belt. In addition the motor may have different rubber mounts to reduce vibration transmission to the base-plate and sometimes they also used a motor pulley that had a rubber isolator built into the pulley.

What you lost by not spending the extra $40 to get the LKM ? not a lot in functional features as you mention. But many including myself would spend the extra money for,

The full width Florescent Light

Flush through detergent and fabric softener dispensers that clean them selves and do not clog.

A 2nd rinse option.

And a heavier more durable control panel construction that was easier to operate for persons that were blind or had poor vision. [ Sears offered a no-cost braille overlay kit for the LKM machines ]


Post# 749487 , Reply# 47   4/12/2014 at 09:05 (3,638 days old) by Tomturbomatic (Beltsville, MD)        
Braille

Mirro Matic pressure cookers, from the start, included in their advertising statements that the pressure cooker could easily be used by the blind because instead of a pressure gauge which had to be watched, it used the three hole pressure regulator which could be labeled for the blind. The use and care book with recipes was available in Braille. Even for sighted cooks, Mirro advertised "cooking without looking" because of the audible signal of cooking pressure.

The cycle buttons with the lock stop timer in LK washers and combos seemed like a good thing for those with impaired vision. There is a current TV ad campaign for a disorder that many totally blind people have because their brains get no visual imput and their circadian rhythms vary resulting in sleeplessness at night and sleepiness during the daylight hours. A woman is shown loading laundry into a FL and starting it, but not adding detergent. I guess that could be an argument for pods or other form of premeasured additives. It is some machine with the cycle selector in the middle of the front panel, but it is not shown closely enough to see if it has Braille markings.What a blessing to have working senses.


Post# 749520 , Reply# 48   4/12/2014 at 10:13 (3,638 days old) by Kenmoreguy64 (Charlotte, NC)        
Lady K vs. the 70 series

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It is always an interesting discussion when comparing the upper MOL models at Sears with the Lady K. I suspect another discussion is not going to change anyone's mind, as we all like what we like, BUT, I wanted to respond about the price/cost differences between the 1974 Lady and this 1975 KM 70. I checked two period catalogs. In the Fall '74 edition, the Lady was $339 and the 1974 70 was $279 (this is an undelivered price). Later the Lady had risen to $359, and a 70 to $289. Let's go with an average difference of $65. Keep in mind that this is in 1975 dollars.

It doesn't seem like much to get a much more robust console in the Lady, the cool click-stop button operation, the triple dispenser, console light, etc. for $65. Convert that though to 2014 dollars, and the difference comes to $291.87. So, if we were buyers in 1975, the value of $65 would feel like $290 does today.

To me, I'm just referring to myself, are those few features worth $290? Not really. When you consider that water temps are much more easily manipulated on the 70 series, for my needs it would have been a no-brainer, 70 series!

Gordon


Post# 749531 , Reply# 49   4/12/2014 at 11:06 (3,638 days old) by ovrphil (N.Atlanta / Georgia )        
Good comparison

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I like your thoughts, Gordon. The only problem with me is ..if they made the Lady K's fancier(aka as "cooler" looking, in my vocabulario :-), I'd probably spring for the extra money. But is the Lady K of 1974 and KM 70 that much different? OTOH, I've seen some much nicer looking Lady K's over the standard model series they are born from.

Good points, Gordon.


Post# 751287 , Reply# 50   4/19/2014 at 18:38 (3,631 days old) by akronman (Akron/Cleveland Ohio)        
Indoors

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and hooked up and running. Yes, some problems, but well worth the purchase price. The lid hinges are shot, I can find on Ebay, so for now no lid.
Only bad news: slight leak in front left corner, near the outer tub hose. It could be either the drain port hose or a tub bolt. Approx a cup per load(2 fills) and the interior of the cabinet tells me it's nothing new, lol, so it can wait a week or two.
Other bad news--the detergent dispenser solenoid doesn't work, but I don't have the dispenser, apparently a rarely purchased/hard to find accesory, so that may never be an issue.
Also, the front plastic 1" wide legs are shot, I ain't yet sure the rear self-levelers work, either. I have fixed rear levelers before with cleaning and de-rusting, grease, we'll see. Front legs are Ebay. Basement floor is rough and uneven, I have lots of good-legged machines that require a shim on this or that leg, no choice in this basement. So that repair can wait a while also.

Good news----A) CAVERNOUS TUB!!!!!Holy crap!!!!! Gigantic!!!!!
B) PentaSwirl does great turnover, quite impressive. Months down the road I'll seek a DualAction agitator to compare, but this is damn fine.
C) QuietPak------very noticeably quieter than my 60 WP, remarkable. But a quick short squeal when spin kicks in, maybe 4 seconds, especially in the gentle cycle since the neutral drain is high-speed motor, then a split second switch to both spin cam engage and low speed motor at the same instant. If a 4 second mild squeak is all it ever makes, it's very impressively smooth and quiet.
d) Suds-----it's "automatic saving" on the suds, no option at all except do you plug the drainsink or not. Fine with me, I like suds. Suds are also saved on the gentle cycle. I have not and likely won't ever touch the PermaPress cycle, I usually hate them. No need for my water bill to equal my mortgage!
E) FS and LCB dispensers---they click in at appropriate points, but only 2 loads so far so not entirely proven.
F) Snubber system is much tighter than my 1960 WP, seems fine.
G) Soak cycle-------it will go directly from Suds Suck into 22 minutes of soak, also the knob allows to then proceed into main wash. Or no suds sucking and it fills for soak. Soaking is always lo-speed, starts with 2 minutes of agitation, then has maybe 3 minutes of pause, then gives a 10 second agitation/3 min pause about 5 times, taking up the 22 minutes. AMAZING!!!! IS THERE ANYTHING THIS TIMER WON't DO??? When the dial hits the Pre-Wash section, it's about 4 minutes lo-speed agi, then a high speed spin,no saving suds or spray rinsing. Or you just dial the PreWash, get those 4 minutes of lo agi and a spin, no previous soak. Then, depending on knobs, it can automatically go into the normal 14 minutes wash cycle, high-speed.
H) Timer again----WOW!!! 14 cams!!! And a spray rinse sub-interval and a soak/agi sub interval!!!!

Time for more coffee, then more posting----more suds info!

I have BOL machines, various brands, and MOL and TOL, all of which I enjoy. But this one's options/timer/knobs are extremely impressive. A lighted dashboard would be cool for sure, but I like this better than the LK pre-decided buttons. This lets me decide all the time. Of Course if a $50 LK from this era showed up, I'd smile.

Meaningles complaint---the console/timer/knobs do EVEYTHING in the world, and all are in nice good shape, great. But I've never really enjoyed the Kenmore Center dial look.


Post# 751379 , Reply# 51   4/20/2014 at 07:02 (3,630 days old) by mrb627 (Buford, GA)        
Awesome!

mrb627's profile picture
The penta swirl agitator is more fun than the penta vane, IMO.
Hope you can make a video so the rest of us can enjoy it too...

Malcolm


Post# 751393 , Reply# 52   4/20/2014 at 08:15 (3,630 days old) by Yogitunes (New Jersey)        

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heres a video of a PentaSwirl in action.....I always found it best for these to be used on 1/2 to 3/4 water levels...wished they would have extended the vanes on the barrel as well....






Post# 751395 , Reply# 53   4/20/2014 at 08:17 (3,630 days old) by Yogitunes (New Jersey)        

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and the PentaVane...which seems to allow more capacity....

each one unique in its own way...






Post# 751396 , Reply# 54   4/20/2014 at 08:17 (3,630 days old) by Yogitunes (New Jersey)        

yogitunes's profile picture
and the PentaVane...which seems to allow more capacity....

each one unique in its own way...






Post# 751397 , Reply# 55   4/20/2014 at 08:20 (3,630 days old) by Yogitunes (New Jersey)        

yogitunes's profile picture
and of course....the DualAction.....in action!






Post# 751450 , Reply# 56   4/20/2014 at 11:54 (3,630 days old) by barcoboy (Canada)        

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Love that Pentaswirl video. I always wondered though... at the 5:20 mark, is the reason that the washer starts its spin when the tub is moved really caused by an off balance switch, or was it just coincidence? I didn't think that an off balance switch simply cut power to the spin cam bar solenoid, but rather power to the entire machine when it was tripped, requiring a manual reset before the cycle continued on.

And speaking of the spin, very nice "grind-click-clunk" sound in this particular video... but why is it called a _grind_-click-clunk? To me it should have been called a buzz-click-clunk, since the first part is the solenoid buzzing. A grind sound is more like gears in a transmission not meshing.


Post# 751464 , Reply# 57   4/20/2014 at 13:36 (3,630 days old) by rp2813 (Sannazay)        

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The machine in Yogi's Penta-Swirl clip above is the exact one my mom had, only hers was white.  I guess they dropped the console light on the '75 models because Mom's machine had one.  Is the cut-out still there for a light above the timer dial?  If so, it might not be difficult to wire one in.

 

I agree with the statements above that indicate a preference for this model over the LK.  I didn't care for the LK's from this period and preferred having more control and customization options that this 70 series offered.  The LK's seemed to have more keys than anyone would ever use, and struck me as gratuitous overkill.

 

As Mark stated above in reply #46, this machine was very capable and did more than most users could ask for -- and quietly.  It was without question the best machine my mom ever owned, needing only a filter and a belt over the 25 year period she had it.  After owning Norges since 1956, she deserved something more refined and I helped her select this beautiful and reliable Kenmore.  It was probably the best major appliance purchase ever made for the household outside of her '49 Westinghouse range, which outlasted her and is still cooking up meals for Greg in Georgia.

 

 


Post# 751485 , Reply# 58   4/20/2014 at 16:20 (3,630 days old) by Kenmoreguy64 (Charlotte, NC)        

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Todd -

The machine in the video was not sensing it was off balance, it was simply working its way through a 4-minute neutral drain period. These tubs, when they have self-cleaing lint filters to flush, usually take about two minutes to drain. When less than full, that time decreases. So, the guys in the video thought the machine was sitting doing nothing for a long time and it was coincidental that it engaged spin right after they moved the tub. Had the machine OOB relay been tripped, the motor would have shut down and a buzzer would have been driving them berzerk.

Ralph -

The console on the '74 model is similar to the '75 only in appearance around the timer. There is no provision possible for a light in the '75.

Mark -

I am so glad that you are already enjoying this machine. You did a nice job cleaning up the console, I am sometimes amazed at how dirty people will allow things to become.

Check your bleach hose as a source for the slight leak in the front corner. There is a lot of rust in that area which could either be coming from the tub outlet hose or the bleach hose.

There are lots of front legs out there available, I see them on eBay all the time. A good price is about $10 with free shipping for a pair.

This washer got lucky that it found you Mark!

Gordon


Post# 751638 , Reply# 59   4/21/2014 at 11:36 (3,629 days old) by kenmoreguy64 (Charlotte, NC)        
Penta vs Penta

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I don't know which one I'd call more "fun". Having used both recently, I would say the two are really very different.

The Penta-Vane is all business, not harsh, but at less than full water levels, it can get the job done at much less than full wash time and keeps snow caps on wash water all the time.

The Penta-Swirl is a different animal. In really full loads I would use full available wash time if washing a reasonably dirty load. The agitator is great at less than full levels and less aggressive than the Penta Vane.

Maybe a side by side comparison this summer when I have two similar sized tubs in use with both agitators?

Gordon


Post# 752229 , Reply# 60   4/23/2014 at 21:29 (3,627 days old) by akronman (Akron/Cleveland Ohio)        
Why?????

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is it a screw instead of a bolt? STUCK!!! Any ideas? Ir\t's been soaking in PB Blaster 2 days, still no luck, vise grips, channel locks, huge screwdrivers, nothing. I'm afraid to torch it due to the plastic agitator.

Sears Parts diagrams show a BOLT, not a screw, and it's on order. But I have one leak to fix, gotta get this thing off.

I scraped away the rubber washer so PB would soak in, I've got a hammer handle stuck in the tranny pulley so it won't move, I've put my sizable weight into it, nothing. And of course the top ridge of the agitator prevents me from any decent grip on it, of course.

This TOL machine DESERVES to be in complete working order, no leaks. It's clearly the tub drain where the "button/pin/catcher" hits the outer tub.


Post# 752240 , Reply# 61   4/23/2014 at 22:10 (3,627 days old) by rp2813 (Sannazay)        

rp2813's profile picture

My mom's machine had a big screw like that too.   I can't remember ever attempting to remove it, though.

 

A bolt and a socket or box wrench would make the job easier for sure.


Post# 752311 , Reply# 62   4/24/2014 at 06:44 (3,626 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md)        
Stuck Agitator Screw

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WP used screws on many many machines in the 1970s to attach the agitator, yes they can be harder to remove. I have almost always been able to get them loose with a really big screw driver.

In a worst case situation you may have to cut the head off and drill out the rest of the screw and re-tap the agitator shaft or just replace the AS.

A machine of this age should be torn apart anyway, the least this washer probably needs is new center-post seals, new spin tube, rust abatement on the outside of the center-post and of coerce resealing the outer tub.

Good luck and keep us posted, John.


Post# 752327 , Reply# 63   4/24/2014 at 08:26 (3,626 days old) by ovrphil (N.Atlanta / Georgia )        
to think

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I knew nothing about this machine, other than it was older looking and maybe something of interest to someone...not to interrupt the thread flow here, but this machine brought way more discussion than I imagined, not to mention that you grabbed this unit at all. Pardon the half talking to myself and you all who bring life and surprises to appliances like this. A SUDS model - whatever that is - glad it was included and not commonly found.

Now, do you plan to disassemble and completely restore or do whatever is needed?

Interesting reading everyone's comments here....even if some is Greek to my ears. :-)


Post# 752333 , Reply# 64   4/24/2014 at 09:09 (3,626 days old) by akronman (Akron/Cleveland Ohio)        
Phil

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Phil----Thanks for the original CL posting. This washer will be getting a (slow) restoration.

Immediate needs---minor tub leak at main bottom drain, fabric softener dispenser plunger repair, lid hinge repairs. But as I take it apart for that tub leak, I will replace worn parts, check everything, derust, repaint, etc. But it is a wonderfully working machine with a minor leak.

Suds Model----Most manufacturers produced suds models in the early days of automatics, since wringer folks in the 30's to 50's were used to using the same hot soapy water for an entire day's washing. Through the decades, suds saving became less and less popular. I also own a 1979 GE FilterFlo with suds.

Suds Saving---These machines have 2 drain hoses. One goes into a standpipe or tub with no stopper plug, that is for rinse water that goes out and down the drain. The other SUDS hose goes into a plugged laundry tub capable of holding approx 20 gallons. If you choose "Save Suds" button or knob, then the hot soapy wash water goes into this tub for saving. The washer switches to the other drain hose for all rinsing, down the drain. When the entire cycle is over and clean clothes are in the dryer, you reset the suds button to RETURN SUDS. That hot 20 gallons with soap and detergent gets sucked back into the machine for your next load of clothes. It's very economical and "green" use of water and the gas/electric needed to heat it in your tank.

Of course if there's diapers/dog cleanup/oily rags laundry, you don't save the suds. But for sheets, towels, office clothes, etc, it's great. I usually do sheets or towels first in hot, by the time I suck the suds back in it's somewhat cooled to medium and I do PermPress/dress clothes. Or, if you're a hobbyist like me and have numerous suds machines, as soon as that hot water is being saved by the Kenmore, you can suck it into the GE and do another load in still hot sudsy water. It's kind of like Betty Crocker cake with Duncan Hines frosting. Quite sinful, but folks do it.

Again, thanks for all your CL ad finds. I search often(ish) but you seem to have perfected the art! This washer is the extra-large model of its era, pretty near TOL, plenty of dispensers and options, and one nasty stuck screw in that agitator.


Post# 752341 , Reply# 65   4/24/2014 at 10:03 (3,626 days old) by mickeyd (Hamburg NY)        
Hey Buddy!

mickeyd's profile picture

Had high hopes that your baby would go from Suds right to soak, rather than stop and stay off. What a great option for really dirty stuff.  Hopes realized. Great. Thanks.

 

When you get a chance, you busy, busy man, see what's going on in the dead space--with water level satisfied and without, Dying of curiosity to see if anything's there. If my suds intuition was on the mark, maybe the dead zone hunch is too. 

 

Loved your response to Phil, giving him the SUDS 101, and the new image in my head of a SUDS RETURN HOBBYIST; that's one for the books.


Post# 752377 , Reply# 66   4/24/2014 at 12:43 (3,626 days old) by ovrphil (N.Atlanta / Georgia )        

ovrphil's profile picture
wow.

Mark you're the man - I never expected an explanation that is so complete and fully understandable.

It really brings back a memory, but can't remember...if it was my mom or someone else whose machine would dump all that hot, soapy water (aka suds)into the tub....but now it comes back to me. I LIKE that feature, as I would use it for sheets when you have too many to do in one load. In fact, I would likely fortify the returned amount of soapy water(suds) by adding more hot water, letting some of the soapy stuff go down the drain first and refilling it to the same level with hotter water and if necessary, adding a bit more soap . I know, that counters the "green" idea. :-) Maybe, there's a more convenient interception technique, depending on the machine. I like to mess with cycles, adding more or less water...and using the hot/cold choices (as my Maytag only has two temp choices).


You and others are welcome...just giving back something tangible for the intangible that isn't explainable right now. My wrists and arms are complaining from the hours spent searching, which improved the odds of hitting stuff like this(I still can't get over that this machine was special, but happy that it was!)

It's still a look, listen and decide phase for me...as collecting isn't what I can or should do right now..but I appreciate how you and others will take a machine and clean it up, making it sing and sparkle again, like new.

Thanks again for making the experience here so enjoyable....I'm hungry, after typing this long-winded mess.


:-) PHIL


Post# 752442 , Reply# 67   4/24/2014 at 20:15 (3,626 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md)        
Suds-Saver Operation

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Hi Michael, when the suds are returned the washer WILL go directly into the 22 minute soak cycle, then the agitated pre-wash for 4 minutes, then drain and short spin, it will then refill dispense detergent in the dispenser and go through the rest of the normal cycle.

Most users of the Suds-Saver feature stopped the washer after the water was returned and selected the cycle they wanted.

Check out post 50 in this thread for Marks description of this.

Talk to you soon, John.


Post# 752451 , Reply# 68   4/24/2014 at 21:06 (3,626 days old) by mickeyd (Hamburg NY)        

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Hello,  Old Friend, I think you read my first sentence too fast; we all do that. Here it is, again:

 

"Had high hopes that your baby would go from Suds right to soak, rather than stop and stay off. What a great option for really dirty stuff.  Hopes realized. Great. Thanks."

 

My high hopes were realized. I knew from the get go that this was the case, but I allowed for another possibility. See Reply #14.

 

You may see me soon because I'm back on the road and in the air again.

 

Any beds at the museum which is where I'd love to stay?


Post# 753000 , Reply# 69   4/26/2014 at 22:40 (3,624 days old) by akronman (Akron/Cleveland Ohio)        
Screw

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it. That screw won't budge, 2 guys helping me, all the wieght in the world on the various screwdrivers/vise grips/channel locks, nothing.

But more than one way to skin a cat.


Post# 753001 , Reply# 70   4/26/2014 at 22:45 (3,624 days old) by akronman (Akron/Cleveland Ohio)        
RTV Sealant

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I can't figure why it won't help or work entirely to stick my finger up inside that hole and seal with good blue or red sealant, I can feel everything. Also on the underside of the baseplate, also on top of the baseplate as far as I can reach with a tiny paintbrush. I will also get the dispenser tube with sealant while I am at it. Since I can't get the agitator and inner tub out, I won't touch the tub-mounted filter at all. I believe it works, the appropriate ball of lint spits out once the drain starts.

Post# 753002 , Reply# 71   4/26/2014 at 22:48 (3,624 days old) by akronman (Akron/Cleveland Ohio)        
more

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I can clean with a rag up inside the hole, let it dry a few days, wire brush the exterior underside of the baseplate flange, etc, then RTV sealant on all surfaces.

Post# 753005 , Reply# 72   4/26/2014 at 23:07 (3,624 days old) by akronman (Akron/Cleveland Ohio)        
catalog pic

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I believe this shows 2 views of a one piece grommit. The lower right view is exactly upside down, and the flange shown actually sits on the upside of the baseplate, and the tub simply presses against it, held by the tub bolts.. '

The depression between the ridges on the right side of the upper left view are exactly where the tub presses. I can feel all of this perfectly with my finger, so I believe sealant should work, and of course on the underside of the baseplate and top also.

I'd much rather get the agitator and spin tub out, but we even had the washer on it's side, with 2 guys pushing it up against a screwdriver forced against a floor post holding up my living room. Turning the screwdriver with a huge channel locks broke off about a quarter of the top of the screw. I can't imagine using a hand drill and having success drilling the mofo out, so I think this is currently my best bet. ???


Post# 753006 , Reply# 73   4/26/2014 at 23:08 (3,624 days old) by akronman (Akron/Cleveland Ohio)        
Cabinet

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needs cleanup and Rustoleum for sure

Post# 753008 , Reply# 74   4/26/2014 at 23:09 (3,624 days old) by ovrphil (N.Atlanta / Georgia )        

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I'm late in the suggestion department, and maybe this wouldn't work either ...just to mention...I have applied heat , Lockease, let sit, heat again, tap the screw head with a sharp edge flat head screwdriver and direct taps to the head of the screw in the direction that would loosen it (I don't know if that's taps to the left or right, with this screw). The heat, the Lockease, and heat...tap, don't deliver crushing blows should ease it from its seated position.

I just re-read your postings and so - my idea isn't going to work -but for posterity- anyone with similar issues, that's another angle to try before blowing off the screw head with King Kong force.

Phil :-)


Post# 753009 , Reply# 75   4/26/2014 at 23:12 (3,624 days old) by akronman (Akron/Cleveland Ohio)        
after picture

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of the dispensers. Before pic was moldy and gross, lots of slow scraping and soaking.
I can see where the LK flow-through dispensers would be an improvement, but I'm guessing my cleanup here is first since 1975, so it should last unclogged quite a while again.


Post# 753013 , Reply# 76   4/26/2014 at 23:29 (3,624 days old) by rp2813 (Sannazay)        

rp2813's profile picture

Those dispensers get ugly pretty fast as I recall.  Diluting the fabric softener doesn't help much.  I had them out a few times on my mom's machine and had to make repairs to at least one if not both plungers.

 

Looks like the machine got a replacement belt at some point, unless they stopped using the green ones in '75.

 

Could it be possible that the agitator screw has a reverse thread?  Regardless, that is going to be a beautiful and refined machine after your work is through.


Post# 753076 , Reply# 77   4/27/2014 at 10:22 (3,623 days old) by jimmler (Nipomo, CA)        
Have you tried....

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...an impact driver on that stuck screw? Harbor Freight used to carry one. Sears still does. Basically you hammer on the back of the tool and it incrementally rotates the bit in the end of it. The combination of smacking and rotating will budge a lot of stubborn screws. Of course there's always the potential it COULD twist off, but that's one of the risks working on these machines.

Good luck!

-Jim


CLICK HERE TO GO TO jimmler's LINK


Post# 753081 , Reply# 78   4/27/2014 at 11:03 (3,623 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md)        
Stuck Agitator Screw & Single shot Dispensers

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Mark you can also drill into the stuck screw and use an easy out, this screw is a standard lefty loosely, rightly tightly screw.

Mark, your silicone sealant trick should work just fine to stop the leaks for a good while, but any used AW of this age needs a good rebuilding if one wants it to last 5 years or more.

The single shot dispensers that this washer used were used on various WP and KM models from 1960 till the early 80s. Yes these dispensers will clog very quickly on the fabric softener side if not used with common sense. I have this system on my 1971 LKM washer that I used for over 25 years after rebuilding and never had any clogging issues.

When ever I added softener I put it in full strength and added a cup of hot water as a chaser and almost every time I used the washer I added a cup of hot water to BOTH dispensers to keep them clean and the hose flushed, never a problem but I am sure that few users would ever think to do this.


Post# 753184 , Reply# 79   4/27/2014 at 16:52 (3,623 days old) by akronman (Akron/Cleveland Ohio)        
Hey John

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Yea, I think the easy out idea is good, I'll try it soon. I do strongly want to get it all apart, replace the drain hose grommet and center post grommet, throw a nice glob of sealant over the tub bolts, the porcelain seams of the outer tub, all the stuff one's supposed to do on an old WP/K. I also think it's really easier to drill/tap/EZ-out with all the assembly out of the washer, instead of standing over it, leaning, etc. We'll see.

My 1960 WP has the same technology dispensers, I've used them for 3.5 years with extra hot water poured in, etc, they stay clean with a small amount of care. This one takes about 1 and 1/3 cups each side, the old one was more like 3/4 only, so this should truly be easy to keep running free with that space for hot water each load.

As ugly as the cabinet looked, it's only surface rust and should all clean up and take new paint well. Colors are fine if you get a machine that doesn't need repainting, but I like white for the old rusty ones, so darn easy.


and I ran enough loads with the timer as is, it works perfectly, so I'm gonna do the diagram labelled changes while it's all apart. Energize and switch between one wire and one contact for that optional second rinse, and switch the suds to kick on as soon as draining begins. Currently, it drains out the drain hose until the water level switch kicks in. then you get maybe 18 suds gallons saved. The diagram shows where to re-wire to get all 25 gallons, suds saving right from the moment draining starts. I've gone thru many loads with both hoses in the same tub, my soapstone sink takes maybe 25 and 1/8 gallons, very close to overflow.


Post# 754799 , Reply# 80   5/3/2014 at 21:52 (3,617 days old) by akronman (Akron/Cleveland Ohio)        
Finished(almost)

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What a washer! The leak was the fabric/bleach dispenser hose and entire cheap plastic assembly all along, which I figured out after sealing everything else! And the base of the dispenser was full of cracks, see the bone-dry repair job, what a hoot!
I can see why it's wiser for Lady K to have flow through, no-clog dispensers. This one is now working imperfectly, the bleach side drains out about half way before the solenoid activates, I can't get it seated perfectly. But I can live with that, as rarely as I LCB. The FS side works fine. Both solenoids are pretty quiet instead of the loud ones on my 1960.

I used a patch of nylon window screen under the JB Weld for starters, held around the edges by tape. Once the first patch dried, I removed the tape and went over the entire area with a new coat of JB Weld to fill in the screen. 2 small leaks remained, sealed with blue RTV. Under the rusted Corwin clamp, a leaky hose, but most of the lenght was fine. On the top water level for washing, the very base of this hose is below the water level, so it leaks all thru a full tub load. I spliced in a 6 inch section, all new clamps, lots of slack for suspension movement, this washer is now DRY DRY DRY. Pretty hokey way to repair, but it can't be seen and it works. And, I doubt I could find a new dispenser.


Post# 754800 , Reply# 81   5/3/2014 at 21:56 (3,617 days old) by akronman (Akron/Cleveland Ohio)        
Filtering

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Since I never got the inner tub out, but it doesn't leak a drop, I never got into the filter. But here's the lint from the sieve, it kicks out the drain hose, never the suds hose. I still don't know the details on how the hosing works with the suds valve and filter system, but you do not get the self-clean filter glog-O'Lint in the suds tub, only down the drain hose. SMART STUFF!

Yes, that strainer will be used Monday night for pasta!


Post# 754809 , Reply# 82   5/3/2014 at 22:30 (3,617 days old) by akronman (Akron/Cleveland Ohio)        
cycling

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I jumpered the correct contact from the timer into the correct wire, and switched that line with a simple 120 V, 10amp toggle switch behind the console. As soon as the spin motor stops at the end of the normal cycle, it immediately fills for the second rinse. Seems like 4 minutes of agitation, then a thorough spin out with no spray rinsing. I'll rarely use it, but I finally have my automatic second rinse machine.

Since I watch most every load I ever wash, the lid hinges and lid sitting on the floor aren't a worry to me, lol. I'll fix that soon, no biggie.

The only other (non)-issue is the detergent dispenser solenoid, non-working, and I don't have the damn dispenser anyways, and it only kicks in at the longest time for each cycle, wouldn't even do any good if you only wanted 6 minutes or something. Wish I had it, but oh well.

So---Still left to do, the suds start out the drain hose, it only switches to the suds hose once the level switch calls for water. Then the rest, most, of the suds go in the correct tub. But my laundry tubs are huge, can hold it all, I gotta do the suggestion on the diagram for ALL suds into the suds tub.

ALSO----while sucking suds---it only sucks in until the level switch is satisfied! You can get baqck only 3/4 of a tub if you want! My 79 GE just simply sucks for 4 minutes regardless of the level switch. This is TOO COOL. This console does EVERYTHING.

I am also quite impressed with my songle speed, no option solid tub Speed Queen. The variety is what I enjoy.

Thanks for all suggestions and advice, I'll check soon with Gordon for that "all suds" feature.




This post was last edited 05/04/2014 at 00:03
Post# 754817 , Reply# 83   5/4/2014 at 00:28 (3,617 days old) by rp2813 (Sannazay)        
Great Story!

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Mark, you did a great job on this old girl, and I'm thrilled to know someone else appreciates this model as much as I do.  I have a soft spot for it, since in a way it's the first washer I ever shopped for and it certainly exceeded my expectations.

 

You nailed it re:  the detergent dispenser.  Using it is an exception rather than the rule.  You're not missing anything, but I understand that it would still be a novelty to have one and watch it work -- a time or two. 

 

The FS and LCB dispensers on my mom's machine had issues on more than one occasion.  I took to cutting patches from other plastic material that seemed compatible, and used a soldering gun to graft them onto the problem areas.  Ugly, but they all held.


Post# 754847 , Reply# 84   5/4/2014 at 08:18 (3,616 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md)        
KM BD Suds-Saver Operation

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On Self-Cleaning filter models, the filter flushing-cleaning only occurs when the water is draining through the rinse drain hose, you can easily trace the drain hose goes from the pump to the two-way suds valve and then either to the SCF or out the suds-save-drain hose.

The water-level switch [ or even float ] was always in the circuit during Suds-Return on WP built washers, this prevented an overflow if somehow you had more water in the save tub than the washer could handle, many other washer brands [ I will not name them here, LOL ] were not this clever on their SSer models.

The Single-Shot dispensers were easy to fix, I think we still stock new dispenser bodies and the little plastic plunger with the rubber seal at the end. If your bleach is leaking out you need this plunger and seal.

The single shot detergent dispenser was ONLY meant to be used with either the soak-prewash followed by automatic advance to a 2nd wash period. You would never use this dispenser more than once for a regular single wash cycle as they were a mess to clean. I found one yesterday while cleaning at our parts room, and like most of these I have ever seen it was certainty never used.

John L.


Post# 754853 , Reply# 85   5/4/2014 at 09:12 (3,616 days old) by akronman (Akron/Cleveland Ohio)        
John

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Wow---that's some news! Price me up 2 plunger/seals and that detergent dispenser for sure if you're interested in selling. Or at least take a pic of the dispenser. With the detergent solenoid not working, maybe I ain't interested? But it would be nice to see what it looks like.

But for sure I'll buy the plungers, might as well get 2 if you have them around. All the leaks are sealed on that cheap plastic piece of crap, every RTV color of the rainbow, and the solenoids are fine.

While I don't expect to use the Soak-To-Wash and extra rinse often, it's quite a cycle. First it pulls in the amount of suds you want on low speed, then 4 minutes low speed agitation, then 20ish minutes of pause/10seconds low spped agi/etc. Then 4 minutes more of low speed agitation, drain out the drain hose, low speed spin with no sprays. Then automatically into 14 minutes of highspeed wash cycle with new detergent dispensed, suds get saved at the end of wash, the normal Kenmore spray rinses before and after deep rinse. Then it goes into the final rinse, with no spraying afterwards. That is one big long deluxe cycle with so many options in it. It's just over 180degrees of the timer, start to finish! Once in a while, for the hell of it, I gotta find some really grossly dirty clothes and just let her rip. And let the water meter just rip too, lol. For the price I paid for this machine, I got quite a highly optioned powerhouse.

And that tub, it matches right up there with extra-sized Maytags, doesn't it? So far, the Penta-Swirl does everything. Not wildly, like 1-18's and Norges, but effectively.

John--thanks for help and advice--
Mark






Post# 754960 , Reply# 86   5/4/2014 at 20:09 (3,616 days old) by akronman (Akron/Cleveland Ohio)        
Design flaw

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Well nothing is perfect, but this surprised me. On the highest water level, the tub water is about an inch above the bottom of the FS and LCB dispensers. Between that and no flo-through water design, the LCB barely moves!!!!! The fabic softener, on the other hand, gets dispensed when the tub is just barely beginning to fill for rinse, so that runs down the hose and into the tub properly. But with no flo-through, if it isn't strongly diluted, I bet some stays in that hose for sure to be flushed out the next time I'm dumb enough to try the other half for bleach. On the other hand, any level below full would allow everything to work properly.

Tons of this machine is cool as hell and works wonderfully, but nothing about the dispenser system is very well designed or built. At least it no longer leaks.

Other than that, a strong machine and all the options one wants for cycles/sudsing/extra rinse, very good washer here. 39 years old and going strong.


Post# 755016 , Reply# 87   5/5/2014 at 09:30 (3,615 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md)        
Single Shot LC Bleach Dispenser

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Good observation Mark, I have also often thought that this looked like less than a perfect way for the bleach to enter the wash water, although it does seem to work.

If you look at the WP-KM both BD and DD and MT machines without the solenoid it would also seem that the LCB would just get stuck in the hose that leads to the bottom of the outer tub if it was added after the washer was filled, but again it does seem to work.

On my 1971 LKM that has the dispenser like yours I ran the hose from the dispenser to a port on the side check valve, this way the LCB, and softener is sucked into the recirculating water system. You can actually hear it going in as when the last of it goes down you hear the sucking sound.


Post# 755063 , Reply# 88   5/5/2014 at 15:14 (3,615 days old) by akronman (Akron/Cleveland Ohio)        
Hey John Combo

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John------I'll gladly run that hose elsewhere. Read your emails, buddy, if you are interested in selling 2 of those plunger/seals. Then the whole assembly will work perfectly and I'll gladly run the hose elsewhere, it will solve their design flaw. Then this washer will kinda be better than brand new. Kinda. And the dispensers will work for any water level, properly, and all fluids will get into the system.

Gordon----I am hoping you are reading----you have given great help on Kenmores, and you were right on the leak, I sure as hell wasn't.

I am getting more familiar with the hoses, this baby has quite a few. I am guessing I need to run it into #47 on this diagram, the hose from the outgoing pump to the suds valve? During agitation(for LCB Dispensing), that hose does this: (I am asking more than stating knowledge)
a)Tub water gets sucked into the filter thru the one side port.
b)goes out the bottom hose connection on the outer side of filter.
c)continues thru the "jumper hose" that stick out the back of the cabinet
d) goes thru the suds valve to the inside-the-cabinet connection, this hose 47 to splice
e)goes thru the negative pressure, sucking pump and thereby into the bottom of the tub for agitation and bleaching.

Haha, I learned all that as I stared at the diagram and typed!

Then , for Fabric Softening, the dispenser will open simultaneously with the water valves open for rinse water. The diluted softener will run down my new hose into hose #47 close to the pump and sit while the tub fills(diluting more as the hose fills, but there's no active flow right now). When agitation starts, it will rapidly get pulled into the stream of negative pressure water, just like the LCB during active water flow, and come into the tub at the bottom drain opening, base of outer tub.


Now, if anyone has any patience left, and kinda for the archives for Kenmore Suds Models mid 70's with this tub mount self-cleaning filter, I'm gonna list for myself and any overly patiient fellow what happens:

First of all, this huge Kenmore knows many laundry tubs wont hold 25 gallons, so it starts with a normal drain into your sewer:
a)flapper inside the pump moves for outgoing pumping, high speed positive pressure and the suds valve stays in the agitation mode. Water moves from the bottom of the tub, thru the pump, thru hose 47 to the susd valve, into that exterior jumper hose again, to the bottom port on the exterior of the filter, backwashes out the lint thru the top port on the outside of the filter, then right out the hose for sewer draining, gone gone gone.

When the water level switch calls for water, it instead activates the suds valve. The pressurized pumping water instead flows into your suds drain tub for saving. The other hose from the suds valve is inactive now, so the backwashing lint filtering is inactive now. You only get clean suds, no lint. Since no suds get saved for rinse water, again it automatically backwashes out the correct hose, from start to finish of rinse pumpouts. Anyone interested, this machine automatically saves suds on NORMAL and KNIT-Delicate, no savings on PermaPress.

From typing this out, I am guessing there is a check valve of some sort built right into the tub-mounted filter
.

Is good old Home D gonna have a 1" barb fitting with a 3/8 or so tee? I guess I better find that before cutting a hose, lol. Or a 1" tee, then a reducing fitting or two. There's decent space near the pump and up to this dispenser for plumbing add-ons.

I apologize for the longest thread of the year, but typing it out and running it past some pro's solidifies it in my head. I love my BOL machines too, trust me, but some brains went into all this machines behaviors. Except the cheap plastic dispenser!
Done typing----thanks to you all for advice and patient reading.
MArk


Post# 755071 , Reply# 89   5/5/2014 at 15:30 (3,615 days old) by akronman (Akron/Cleveland Ohio)        
Oh good lord

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I humbly apologize!!! I (obviously) just had my 2nd pot of coffee for the day! Wow, that got long-winded---
Sorry-Mark


Post# 755169 , Reply# 90   5/5/2014 at 22:40 (3,615 days old) by cornutt (Huntsville, AL USA)        
That's a great explanation, actually!

And after reading your explanation, I'm beginning to understand how that strange "jumper hose" on the exterior of the cabinet came to be. It probably stems from the addition of the self-cleaning filter to the older suds valve setup. On the older machines with the manual-clean filters, I think the suds port went straight to the suds hose. Making it work without the self-cleaning filter would have involved changing the way the suds valve mounted in the cabinet.

Post# 755171 , Reply# 91   5/5/2014 at 22:43 (3,615 days old) by cornutt (Huntsville, AL USA)        
That's a great explanation, actually!

And after reading your explanation, I'm beginning to understand how that strange "jumper hose" on the exterior of the cabinet came to be. It probably stems from the addition of the self-cleaning filter to the older suds valve setup. On the older machines with the manual-clean filters, I think the suds port went straight to the suds hose. Making it work without the self-cleaning filter would have involved changing the way the suds valve mounted in the cabinet.

Post# 755172 , Reply# 92   5/5/2014 at 22:44 (3,615 days old) by cornutt (Huntsville, AL USA)        

I have no idea how I posted that twice...

Post# 755207 , Reply# 93   5/6/2014 at 07:20 (3,614 days old) by akronman (Akron/Cleveland Ohio)        
Wrong again

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Hose 47 is negative pressure during agitation, but pressurized/pumping during all draining periods, I can't tap into it. Hose #30 or #41 are the only ones for this purpose, their only use is recirculating.

Post# 755211 , Reply# 94   5/6/2014 at 07:33 (3,614 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md)        
Exterior Jumper Hose

combo52's profile picture
This hose was only on Super Capacity models with a SCF and Suds-Saver feature for the simple reason they ran out of space in the cabinet, on all the standard capacity models they managed to get everything inside.

Whirlpool-Kenmore had three different positions that the two-way SS valve was mounted in over the 1947-1987 duration of BD washer production.

{ there was also a cheaper to build system tried around 1957 that was quickly abandoned that used a TWV that was mounted on the base-plate and controlled by the agitate cam-bar ]

John L.


Post# 761115 , Reply# 95   6/3/2014 at 08:37 (3,586 days old) by akronman (Akron/Cleveland Ohio)        
6-3-2014 PATENT of the Day

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is the missing detergent dispenser!

This machine has quieted down significantly with use, goes into spin nearly silently.
The dispensers are working with no leaks, that agitator turns over anything, it's a great Kenmore!

Thanks to all for the advice on its repairs, it's the coolest Suds model I own.
Mark



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