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Thread Number: 53278
Stick A Fork In It, It's Done. RIP My Kenmore DW |
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Post# 756244 5/11/2014 at 05:40 (3,630 days old) by Launderess  (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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Well there was me doing a bit of housework late last night including running the DW. Halfway through the pre-wash the Kenmore made an odd noise then the motor and pump stopped running. Nothing to be heard but a humming noise.
Now this unit had been making odd noises now and then for awhile now. Didn't really bother as one figured the portable dw is nearly 20 years old and just getting on. Moving the timer dial around produced nothing in the way of restarting the motor/pump. Unit will fill, but no washing or draining, just that blasted humming sound. A quick run to the computer, plugged in some information and one came up with a few possibilities. One being the pump and or motor, the other being shaft/seal assembly. First order of business was to get the dishes sorted. So there one was with hands in hot water doing something one has not done in ages. Doing the washing up by hand for several place settings. Next siphoned out the water from the bottom of the DW and after disconnecting the water/drain hoses wheeled the thing back to its resting place. That is when one noticed a pool of dark brownish mucky water from under the DW. Ran for the Bounty and upon closer examination saw the black bits one assumed were food, was shreds of plastic. Well that's me for you, this DW is probably going out on recycling day. May try to get some parts off the unit such as the unicouple hoses, and maybe the timer. While the motor is officially NLA for this Kenmore (built by Frigidaire/model 587) 18" DW, there are other sources for either used or NOS. However they run about $200 give or take. The seal shaft assembly is still in stock from Sears and other sources and is a bit more reasonable at around $40. Still after labour and callout charges one is looking at a bill of perhaps $200 to $300 or more for a 20 year old dw. New Sears has them currently on sale for about $530. Reason one is leaning towards chucking the machine is also there was some sort of burning plastic/wire smell inside the DW after one had turned the dial a few times in an attempt to get things going again. This could just have been the motor burning itself out because it cannot move, or something else. | ||
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| Post# 756281 , Reply# 2 5/11/2014 at 09:57 (3,630 days old) by redcarpetdrew (Fairfield, CA) | ||
It does sound like the motor has gone 'ten windings to the shy' but there are options. Try asking John if he has a spare. I'll be he does and cheaply as well. Changing the motor assembly whole isn't as scary as it sounds and I know you could do it my dear. One might just have to break out her tools and get her Palmolive softened hands slightly dirty. LOL! Used 18" dishwashers don't grow on trees after all and cost a rather scary amount new. Give it half a chance before condemning it to the tip...
RCD | ||
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Post# 756317 , Reply# 3 5/11/2014 at 13:29 (3,630 days old) by Frigilux (The Minnesota Prairie) |
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I take care of a house each winter for its snowbird owners. They have a new all-Frigidaire kitchen with an 18" built-in dishwasher. They had a mid-80s-looking KitchenAid portable but decided to sacrifice a cabinet for a built-in. Why they didn't just go with a full-size evades me, but I digress.
The interior is stainless steel. They like it and says it cleans well. 
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Post# 756320 , Reply# 4 5/11/2014 at 13:55 (3,630 days old) by logixx (Germany) |
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Post# 756323 , Reply# 5 5/11/2014 at 14:07 (3,630 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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Thanks Guys!
@Washer111, heater was not engaged during pre-wash, so no problems there. Am guessing the smell could have come from the motor giving up the ghost.
Read an older post in the archives about these DM designed Frigidaire/Kenmore DW and apparently the seal shaft and or motor was a weak spot in this design. Still cannot say one didn't get value for money considering how long the thing lasted. Am torn between a possible repair and or searching for something new. Have been trying to find one of those Asko or even Equator older countertop units for awhile. That would free up some space in my *collection* and for us going from an 18" to that isn't a huge deal. Yes, it does seem that most of these 18" portable and even built-ins all come from China and probably the same plant. Again no mystery there as neither the portable nor 18" dw market is a large one. The newer offerings have two spray arms instead of the one and tower of my older unit. They are also quieter as well. OTOH new units are probably of the low flow design with very long cycles to compensate. | ||
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Post# 756337 , Reply# 6 5/11/2014 at 15:37 (3,630 days old) by henene4 (Heidenheim a.d. Brenz (Germany)) |
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Bosch? Our house is 27 years old. Our kitchen is even 2 years older. And we have been through 3 BSH 18" DW yet. Service for 5 nearly continiously, and all were good, silent and relativley fast (Auto mostly 1:30h). I suppose their countertop once are the same thing... | ||
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Post# 756354 , Reply# 8 5/11/2014 at 17:39 (3,629 days old) by whirlykenmore78 (Prior Lake MN (GMT-0500 CDT.)) |
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Launderess:
Would this work for you? $380 doesn't seem too bad.
WK78 CLICK HERE TO GO TO whirlykenmore78's LINK on New York Craigslist | ||
| Post# 756437 , Reply# 9 5/12/2014 at 02:24 (3,629 days old) by arbilab (Ft Worth TX (Ridglea)) | ||
The smell is Motor Odor. Motor currents double when they are unable to move. The motor isn't ruint unless it's the motor itself that is unable to move, not the shaft seal preventing it.
But as you speculate, something that old with that foundational a failure and that high a repair estimate might best be pastured. I had a WP/KM that was reluctant to start but if I was patient it still did. Not long after that it began whizzing on the linoleum as the tub rusted through. | ||
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Post# 756592 , Reply# 10 5/12/2014 at 19:13 (3,628 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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Thanks again all,
Built in (Bosch) is not possible hence the reason we went with the 18" Frigidaire in the first place. *sigh*
Since this D&M design dishwasher is rather common (they were and or are sold under a slew of brand names) the shaft, pump, seal etc.. kit is easily found. Checking various online prices you can get the thing almost dirt cheap. Apparently since many of the models are now retired parts are often now "NOS). Have been reading up on how to swap out the shaft seal etc.... and it does seem like a rather easy job. One just removes the tower housing and then its rather like a layer cake until you get to the "bottom". However am not sure if it is really *that* easy and if it can be done from above or is removing the motor required. Stopped in local appliance shop earlier today and saw the modern incarnation of Frigidaire's 18" DW and was sort of unimpressed. Yes, the tower is gone replaced by an upper wash arm, but that thing is located under the top rack. This placement limits the height of anything in the lower rack. Would have to take our plates and maybe some commonly used cooking items to see if there is clearance. Other thing that struck me was the heavy use of plastic, *LOTS* of plastic which in no way makes up for the SS interior. | ||
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Post# 756644 , Reply# 11 5/12/2014 at 23:42 (3,628 days old) by rapunzel (Sydney) |
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Washing dishes by hand? My God! I would have just gone and bought myself a brand new dishwasher and dishes and just chucked the defective machine out with its contaminated and bothersome load. Just roll the damn thing out that door. | ||
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Post# 756801 , Reply# 13 5/13/2014 at 19:20 (3,627 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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Yes, It Is Done
Well done to be exact.
Took the pump assembly out and to my surprise the stem, impellers et al are all fine. Well the wash impeller now has a small nick from the attempt but otherwise it is fine. No, upon digging deep into the bowels of this mucky mess the problem soon became clear. The metal stem that comes off the motor has rotted and rusted itself to bits. The upper portion came away with the pump assembly where it remains. All that is left is a stub on the motor. Replacing the motor on this dw is more work than one bargained for, not to mention new will run about $100 to nearly $170 depending upon where ordered. Do I really want to spend that much money and effort on a twenty year old DW? The door springs went years ago, and within the past few months the door latch has been acting up. One has to close the door just right to get the thing to run, and even then it can take several attempts. May just take the unicouple hose set and maybe the timer motor out of the thing and chuck it to the curb. That or look on CL for those roving appliance scrapper men. | ||
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Post# 756817 , Reply# 15 5/13/2014 at 20:27 (3,627 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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In Theory Yes,
One would assume the several seals that are part of the pump assembly etc... would have prevented leaks, especially since one never noticed water on the floor under the unit after use. However this *IS* WCI/Electrolux we're speaking of here, so who knows.
From limited Internet research rusted out motor stems are not uncommon with D&M/Frigidaire DWs. Am just glad one did some investigating first before ordering any parts. Now to concentrate on a replacement as one does not intend to spend one's summer with our face to the fire and hands in hot water. | ||
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Post# 756820 , Reply# 16 5/13/2014 at 20:41 (3,627 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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Now ThIs DW Is Messing About With My Head! *LOL*
Just as a test powered up the dw and moved the timer dial around. Sure enough the humming noise is gone and the shaft now turns freely! *LOL* If one opens the dw quickly the motor shaft can still be seen spinning round. Really is a shame there isn't a way to replace just the shaft from above/inside the tub.
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| Post# 756892 , Reply# 17 5/14/2014 at 09:12 (3,627 days old) by redcarpetdrew (Fairfield, CA) | ||
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Laundress, my dear, have you contacted John to see if a replacement power module complete can be had? You might be able to put a few years at least back into the injured one for a relatively paltry sum. I just KNOW you can do this job. Let's just say I have faith that one is more capable than one gives herself credit for.
RCD | ||
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Post# 756934 , Reply# 18 5/14/2014 at 13:28 (3,627 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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Hey Red!
Actually did some research last night and removing the motor on these "older" style D&M/Frigidaire dishwashers is not *that* bad. Everything comes up through the tub after the pump assembly and so forth are removed. There is a plastic set of half rings under which requires removing the kick plate to get at, but other than that it is just a matter of the mounting screws.
Of course once the thing is up one has to just take care to remember the connections (drain, water, relay, etc...) so one can replace them correctly. Looked around and one can find NOS motors for $100 and used for less than half, most with free shipping. So that is sorted. Problem at least for Moi is some do not come with a relay nor the wiring already installed in that thingamabob (harness) that one simply connects to the dw. Frigidaire's Tech Talk for servicing these units recommends to always replace the relay when swapping out the motor. If one could find a motor pre-wired as such am sure the job would take less than an afternoon's work. However there are other niggles. Reading the archives regarding D&M dishwashers brought to mind the little things that bothered one about this 18" dw. While cleaning performance was generally good, even when setting the thing for an extra rinse and using the full amount of rinse agent you still got yibbles scattered about dishes. Insides of cups and glasses on the upper rack in particular seemed subject to this, especially anything placed towards the back. Next it would be nice to have something that holds *everything* including pots and large items. Have been researching the vintage KA portables and top loading dishwashers. Some came in at only 22" width wise, which may be a tad tight would give one the interior space to do full loads. Of course one could repair the Frigidaire and perhaps sell it on at a later date. However while the timer is still good the door latch is going, again you have to close the thing just right.... | ||
| Post# 756946 , Reply# 19 5/14/2014 at 14:30 (3,627 days old) by redcarpetdrew (Fairfield, CA) | ||
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That's my girl!
I knew you could do it. Locate a motor that is wired and has the relay included. That's what I'd do. Fix the immediate issue and save your beautiful hands then take your time planning it's replacement if you decide to.
Fix it right and I just might have to get the boss to hire you here so I can train you up proper. Of course, a city girl here in rural Reno. Hmmm sounds like a reverse Green Acres plot. LOL! RCD | ||
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Post# 756969 , Reply# 20 5/14/2014 at 17:19 (3,626 days old) by rp2813 (Sannazay) |
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". . . a city girl here in rural Reno." | ||
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Post# 756972 , Reply# 21 5/14/2014 at 17:30 (3,626 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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On the train for Reno! | ||
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Post# 756973 , Reply# 22 5/14/2014 at 17:31 (3,626 days old) by rp2813 (Sannazay) |
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Post# 756977 , Reply# 23 5/14/2014 at 17:39 (3,626 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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Tourjours L' amour! | ||
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Post# 756978 , Reply# 24 5/14/2014 at 17:41 (3,626 days old) by rp2813 (Sannazay) |
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| Post# 757005 , Reply# 25 5/14/2014 at 19:50 (3,626 days old) by Mich (Hells Kitchen - New York) | ||
Laundress | ||
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Post# 757009 , Reply# 26 5/14/2014 at 20:29 (3,626 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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No luv
They are the remains of the ground flax seed "meal" we have with our oatmeal each morning at breakfast. Also bits of rice, oats and anything else that is not totally scrapped off dishes before they go into the unit.
Have long taken to being Hyacinth Bucket when unloading the DW, inspecting each piece before it is put away. Usually several will need to be rinsed free of yibbles, then dried. Thing is one has long reset this dw to do a second short rinse after the main wash, then it goes onto the final rinse. You'd think between those rinses with heavy doses of rinse aid would solve the problem, but no. | ||
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Post# 757309 , Reply# 28 5/15/2014 at 23:48 (3,625 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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Don't know about their 24" dw, but the Frigidaire 18" portable is made in China and sold under several brand names.
Just as before it seems the portable dishwasher market isn't large enough to support several major players. D&M/Frigidaire/WCI/Electrolux was the source of Kenmore's 18" units, but from the things one has read they couldn't or wouldn't supply product any longer a prices Sears requested. Have looked at the new models of Frigidaire 18" dishwashers and was not overly impressed. To their credit the machines do have an upper spray arm under the rack which should in theory deal with the yibble problems D&M machines are known for; OTOH there is tons of plastic every where. Read online that Frigidaire now uses a plastic motor stem instead of metal. This seems good because it can avert the problem of metal rusting and corrosion. However there are reports that if the impellers jam or something they will strip that plastic shaft. Once that happens you are in the same situation one is in now, the entire motor/pump assembly must be replaced. Peeked inside my Frigidaire last night and noticed another worry. The sump to tub gasket is cracked and worn away around the edges in a few spots. How much or if any water can leak down to the motor is unknown. However if one is going to replace the motor then that seal would have to be done as well. So far the list of things needing repair is pushing me to look for another dw. This even isn't counting the door latch is going (requires multiple attempts to close the door so unit will operate), and the door springs are shot. Only thing that seems to work is the timer. *LOL* Again all this might make a tolerable repair project if the thing was a great dishwasher. But quite honestly this Frigidaire/Kenmore had a tendency to leave yibbles scattered about, especially on upper rack items. Even with setting manually to a second rinse there would often be bits of things on or in glassware/cups. Am thinking for the few hundred dollars in parts it would cost to repair this dw one could find a better (vintage) portable. | ||
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Post# 757372 , Reply# 30 5/16/2014 at 09:48 (3,625 days old) by logixx (Germany) |
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Could you get a regular 18 inch unit and put it on a board with castors underneath it?
Kenmore 18" review: dishwashers.reviewed.com/content/... | ||
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Post# 757414 , Reply# 31 5/16/2014 at 13:20 (3,625 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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"On the Normal Wash, the scores were comparable to other mid-range dishwashers: there were very few remains of the common egg, milk, and meat stains, and only slightly more leftovers from the sticky baked-on oatmeal stain. The Pots & Pans cycle showed barely any improvement with these stains, but did a great job removing burnt cheese and burnt sugar.
When a dishwasher sprays food particles onto other plates instead of draining them away, it's called redeposit. It was barely noticeable in the Normal Wash and practically non-existent on the Pots & Pans. However, with both cycles, we did notice that items loaded in the rear of the upper rack don't get as clean, which indicates poor water coverage in that area." That almost could be my current unit! *LOL* Thanks for the link. Find it worrying that even this latest model of Kenmore's 18" dw still cannot get items placed in rear upper rack clean and yibble free. This even with now having an upper spray arm instead of just a tower. | ||
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Post# 757570 , Reply# 32 5/16/2014 at 21:01 (3,624 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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Well Lookee, Lookee | ||
| Post# 766624 , Reply# 34 6/29/2014 at 04:52 (3,581 days old) by arbilab (Ft Worth TX (Ridglea)) | ||
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| Post# 766627 , Reply# 35 6/29/2014 at 05:09 (3,581 days old) by washer111 () | ||
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Mmmmm. Hadn't considered that one!
Very clever! | ||
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Post# 766767 , Reply# 36 6/29/2014 at 17:47 (3,580 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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Sauce boxes the pair of you.
*LOL*
As a matter of fact have nabbed something but as it hasn't arrived you'll have to wait to find out. Am also that fed up with washing up by hand. Used to be able to clear away dinner dishes and clean the kitchen for the night in <15 minutes. Then it was off to bed, maybe out for a stroll/drinks/ice cream, maybe watch something on PBS, but not now. Am stuck with my hands in hot water messing about with dishes, glassware, pots, pans.... the lot. If one does not dry them at once manually am faced with a drainer full of dishes first thing in the morning that must be sorted. | ||
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