Thread Number: 53339
Need Advice about Dishwashers..
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Post# 756818   5/13/2014 at 20:31 (3,606 days old) by Mich (Hells Kitchen - New York)        

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Before I start, I wanna say, I may know a *thing* or two about Laundry Detergent, and Detergents in General, when it comes to actual machines, I feel like I know pretty much nothing. So, I could really use a hand here, as honestly, I just can't make a decision. 

 

I should say, our current, Kenmore Ultrawash is honestly, on it's last leg. I'm not gonna say I hate it but, I've always *felt* like it could do a slightly better job.

 

I say this because, I like to put our Huge, Pyrex Glass Casserole dishes in and they never come out completely clean. I've tried rearranging them, and all sorts of things, and while they do come clean, there not completely clean.

 

On the other hand, I load dried on Oatmeal & Cereal & Soup covered dishes in the top rack, really hard to scrub, and it comes out just spotless. I honestly think, it does a really good job, on most of our everyday dishes, and I really shouldn't complain about the performance. 

 

But, anyhow, The reason I'm asking this, is I'm torn about replacing it with another Elite Series Ultra Wash, or stepping up to a Bosch (500 series) Dishwasher. I do really like the Ultra Wash, I do.. but, I have been considering the Bosch for a long time too. I feel like the Bosch would be a Great performer, but, on the other hand, you know, my Ultra Wash, does a great job, can I really do *any* better?

 

I'm asking here. Because, you guys are the real experts in this. If you had your Choice, would you go with another Whirlpool made Ultra Wash, or a Bosch? And Why? Any advice, or information about the two, would be extremely appreciated. 





Post# 756823 , Reply# 1   5/13/2014 at 21:14 (3,606 days old) by washer111 ()        

I'm gonna go on a whim here and make a suggestion:

 

BEFORE you consider replacing the dishwasher, I would perhaps suggest disassembling the pump assembly, just in case some broken glass or other garbage has gotten caught up in there. It may be that the water flow to the spray arms is just constricted enough to affect washing in the bottom rack, but not so much in the top rack.

I believe there are multiple dis-assembly procedures you can look at online :)

 

Another suggestion I have to make regards your plates and items that go in the dishwasher: I've actually found that our older, etched dinner plates have this "squeaky clean" feeling to them most of the time. The plates are actually a little bit sticky feeling.
If you pre-rinse, "over dose" your cycle or detergent choices you can cause etching, and once the plates are etched, it seems that dishwasher just can't clean them properly anymore.

That is, at least, my experience in the DishDrawer with "eggy" plates, or stains like tomato. Otherwise, I don't have cleaning issues caused by the machine itself.

 

If you do decide to go with a newer machine, unless your plates only have food soil, no soft foods or very small bones (fish bones) then I probably wouldn't suggest the Bosch on the grounds of having to clean the filter somewhat regularly. Yes, the clean well, but the "idea" of cleaning the filter, or not being able to load up crusty casseroles, burnt on stuffs and the like into the machine and being able to "forget" about it is not something many like.

Therefore, I would probably recommend a newer Kenmore UltraWash, with the food-chopper and self-cleaning filter. I believe Bob (Appnut) has one of later machines of this lineage, and gets great results from it using SmartWash. We all KNOW how dirty his plates are, and how long those sit before being washed!!!


Post# 756854 , Reply# 2   5/14/2014 at 00:56 (3,606 days old) by murando531 (Augusta, Georgia - US)        

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Do everything you can to restore that UltraWash, because you're not going to find anything else that compares to it (besides an original PowerClean). I agree with washer111; take the module apart at the bottom and make sure it's cleaned out. You'll be surprised at what can accumulate over years of use. The video I linked shows how to replace the impellers, so that should be enough to reference how to get it apart/back together. I'm sure after some TLC with an old toothbrush it'll be running like new and you won't want another!

CLICK HERE TO GO TO murando531's LINK


Post# 756864 , Reply# 3   5/14/2014 at 04:54 (3,606 days old) by whirlcool (Just North Of Houston, Texas)        

Also make sure you run the hot water at the sink to get it good and hot before starting the dishwasher. Most any dishwasher will clean well if you have good and hot water and a good detergent to start with.

Post# 757008 , Reply# 4   5/14/2014 at 20:12 (3,605 days old) by Mich (Hells Kitchen - New York)        
HOT Water

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I always do that trick, because, our Dishwasher is on the second floor, and the hot water has to travel a very long way to get over there. I always turn on the "Hi-Temp Wash" too, but the incoming temp averages about 120ish, sometimes 130*. 

 

I've already taken it apart, and the bottom pump was clean as a whistle. Seriously, there wasn't a speck of food, besides a small piece of white plastic (it looked like from a funnel). This was really comforting to me, because it confirms my suspicion that the Cascade Powder I'm using is still very fresh, and the enzymes are still well active. 

 

I never really pre-rinse anything. And.. everything, almost always comes clean. It's really sparingly that it fails on me (except when it comes to those casserole dishes), and maybe a random fork or spoon from time to time. 

 

I honestly think, it's the circulation pump that's failing. Although, at this point, I think, I might come out ahead just swapping it out with a slightly newer model. I'm just really curious, to hear everyones opinion, on a Bosch vs Whirlpool based machine. I really don't mind cleaning a filter every other time. It's not really a bother for me. 


Post# 757011 , Reply# 5   5/14/2014 at 20:32 (3,605 days old) by DADoES (TX, U.S. of A.)        

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A service tech on another discussion group I follow recently advised someone that his company no longer instructs customers to purge the supply line before starting because current enzyme detergent formulas work better starting cool and heating gradually to the lower target temps that are programmed nowadays.


Post# 757012 , Reply# 6   5/14/2014 at 20:41 (3,605 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        
Are You Sure Things Are Being Positioned Correctly?

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If the upper rack is "clean" but things in the lower rack aren't, I'd try loading the latter a different way. If this is anywhere near "modern" unit it will be skimpy on water use which means one must pay particular attention to how things are loaded. Otherwise what little water there is won't hit the proper spots IMHO.

Post# 757014 , Reply# 7   5/14/2014 at 20:44 (3,605 days old) by murando531 (Augusta, Georgia - US)        

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For clarification, is this a Kenmore UltraWash with a standard tub(PowerClean module) or a tall tub (Point Voyager)?

Post# 757018 , Reply# 8   5/14/2014 at 20:50 (3,605 days old) by Mich (Hells Kitchen - New York)        
I'm pretty sure..

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It's a Point Voyager, or Tall Tub model :)


Post# 757022 , Reply# 9   5/14/2014 at 20:57 (3,605 days old) by murando531 (Augusta, Georgia - US)        

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Then I owe you an apology for posting the wrong disassembly video. Sorry about that haha. I jumped the gun a bit.

Post# 757026 , Reply# 10   5/14/2014 at 21:21 (3,605 days old) by super32 (Blackstone Massachusetts)        
A vote a Bosch

super32's profile picture
I have been washing with a Bosch for about 12 years. My current one is a 500 series with the 3rd rack. It does clean quite well. I do sometimes put our glass 9X13 in the top/middle rack and no problems there either.

Post# 757051 , Reply# 11   5/14/2014 at 23:46 (3,605 days old) by henene4 (Heidenheim a.d. Brenz (Germany))        
Living in the motherland of BSH and Miele...

... I can recomend both. Bosch never let us down (for more than 20 years now). They clean good efficent silent and rather quick!

Post# 757121 , Reply# 12   5/15/2014 at 07:02 (3,605 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md)        
Fix Or Replace

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I would also recommend fixing your current DW since you have liked it over the years, it sounds like you checked over the pump system so the other likely problem is the inlet valve. You can either try adding 2 quarts of hot water to the DW each time it fills through the cycle and see if this helps the DWs performance or just replace the inlet valve if you don't have the patience to do a lot of testing.

I would NEVER buy a Bosch DW when we have such good American machines available, I will always buy products where the employes have full union rights when ever possible.

Bosch DWs are also very difficult to install and service, when you have problems with the main pump in a Bosch DW it is a throwaway time, same with door hinge and spring problems.


Post# 757147 , Reply# 13   5/15/2014 at 09:51 (3,605 days old) by henene4 (Heidenheim a.d. Brenz (Germany))        
OK?!?

1st: I suppose Bosch employes have simmilar rights to employes at WP. And we all know what all out there is WP made.
And for those parts you said: I never saw any DW with a broken hinge our spring, especially not a BSH. And on the topic of pumps: Do you think that a broken WP made pump won't mean its death either? Simply any DW today is made to be scrapped if the pump dies. And this first has to happen.


Post# 757202 , Reply# 14   5/15/2014 at 17:17 (3,604 days old) by washer111 ()        
henene4

I think what John was trying to say is the Pump/Motor assembly is an all-in-one and perhaps very expensive unit, whose replacement could fund an entirely new machine. 


Post# 757204 , Reply# 15   5/15/2014 at 17:20 (3,604 days old) by washer111 ()        

I also find it interesting to hear about the water-line purging.

 

Then again, with lower inlet temperatures, much lower washing temperatures and the fact that machines skipping Pre-Wash (or only just) means the "rise" you get from the hot purge is pretty worthless. But the added time spent heating water WOULD increase washing time and thus improve results. Hmmm. 


Post# 757206 , Reply# 16   5/15/2014 at 17:38 (3,604 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        
Pump/Motor assembly is an all-in-one

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Sadly that does seem to be the way many modern dishwashers are produced. At least from one's research in attempts to deal with our own pump/motor situation.

As with washing machines today's dishwashers seem to be designed for only *minor* repairs. If and or when say the pump and or motor goes unless it is under warranty most customers will chuck the unit because the repairs are dear in relation to cost of the machine.

Way around this is to seek sources for cheaper parts but then not all repairmen will use customer supplied parts. Miele here won't and or will only warranty work done with "official" Miele parts. Of course if one plans to do the repair one's self that is a different story.


Post# 757223 , Reply# 17   5/15/2014 at 19:31 (3,604 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md)        
Main Pump and Motor Assemblies In Modern DWs

combo52's profile picture
On all WP built DWs made since they started building their own DWs in the late 1950s the complete main motor and pump can be removed WITHOUT removing the DW from its installed position, [on all WP built DWs since 1964 you lift the the entire motor and pump right out of the machine from the inside ] and it takes only 15-20 minutes to complete the repair, which for our company means you pay no more than $40 for the labor to do this repair.

THIS IS NOT THE CASE with Meile, Asko, Bosch and a few others where you have to remove the entire machine lay it on its back or side and start dissembling [ remember how much you paid to have your DW installed ? ] well add that to the repair bill.

This is probably the reason over the last 40 years we have replaced thousands of pumps and motors in WP, GE, KA, MT and even Frigidaire DWs, I have only ever replaced ONE pump and motor on a Miele DW and one on a Bosch, all the others that I seen get replaced and recycled usually by a WP built DW, they just arn't worth fixing, most people won't pay $500 to fix a Bosch or $800 to fix a Miele DW.


Post# 757376 , Reply# 18   5/16/2014 at 10:21 (3,604 days old) by logixx (Germany)        

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It might just be the casserole itself. I remember my mother having a huge stainless pot that she'd use for searing meat on the stove and then continue cooking it in the oven for hours. That thing (and its matching glass lid) would not come clean in the dishwasher. Just didn't happen. The Bosch cleaned pretty much anything else I threw at it (see here: i46.photobucket.com/albums/f142/M...) so I accepted that these two items were from dishwasher hell.

Alex


Post# 757402 , Reply# 19   5/16/2014 at 12:27 (3,604 days old) by murando531 (Augusta, Georgia - US)        

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I don't think any dishwasher, even a PowerClean or a Hobart KA, can handle baking dishes with food severely scorched on. I normally never put anything into a dishwasher except eat-ware (plates, bowls, cups, silverware, etc.) just because of how much space large bowls and pans take up. The things put in it are nasty, but none of it is baked on of course, just dried. Anything baked/seared on gets a sprinkle of Cascade powder and soaks for a few hours with hot water, and even then it takes some effort to scrub off. With the water in a dishwasher not actually sitting still on the soil enough to soak in, and with a machine averaging an hour or two, there's just not enough time for the heat and detergent to get deep enough to dissolve it.

The previous gen WP's are insanely easy to work on, and because no one wants to let go of their PowerClean's and even Point Voyager's, parts are still readily available. I'd also have to kick a dishwasher to the curb if I had to clean out cakes of residue from the bottom like that Bosch pictured above. The WP/KM would have pulverized it and sent it on its way, as a dishwasher should.


Post# 757585 , Reply# 20   5/16/2014 at 22:55 (3,603 days old) by Mich (Hells Kitchen - New York)        
Well...

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It's dead Guys. I turned it on tonight, and went to my room, and I came back into the Kitchen, and noticed it wasn't making any sounds whatsoever. Opened the door, and a strong burning smell was present. I think I was in the right place at the right time, as, I imagine things could have gotten bad had I not been there. It was humming, but, no water was circulating whatsoever. 

 

It was nice while it lasted. It was... :(


Post# 757695 , Reply# 21   5/17/2014 at 14:11 (3,603 days old) by whirlcool (Just North Of Houston, Texas)        

A service tech on another discussion group I follow recently advised someone that his company no longer instructs customers to purge the supply line before starting because current enzyme detergent formulas work better starting cool and heating gradually to the lower target temps that are programmed nowadays.

And just what kind of documentation did he provide to prove this claim? On a discussion board it could be a 10 year old kid posting, you never know. If this was really true, I think it would be printed on the back of each enzyme DW detergent box and dishwashers would have a "cool wash" setting.


Post# 757698 , Reply# 22   5/17/2014 at 14:21 (3,603 days old) by murando531 (Augusta, Georgia - US)        

murando531's profile picture
Just like the Whirlpool-certified tech that came the other day, and told me that the little rubber pads that go over the hinge (to allow the door to be propped open) are just stoppers and that they don't actually do anything. I looked straight at him and said "Is that so? Then how is it that everytime they tear off, the door falls loosely and basically floats up and down? If the springs are tightened, the door will slam closed and won't stay down, too loose and the door will heavily slam open." It's amazing how ignorant they think people are. I guarantee you I've taken apart more WP built machines in my life than he has in his career.

As far as that UltraWash, it may just be time to say a few last words and let it go. I would say that the motor just needs to be replaced and they're not too outrageous in price, but it may be better to get something newer. I'd look for a gently-used PowerClean myself, but a Bosch may do just as well.


Post# 757726 , Reply# 23   5/17/2014 at 16:41 (3,602 days old) by henene4 (Heidenheim a.d. Brenz (Germany))        
May this be the reason?

If a bearing in the motor went off slowly, this might have decreased its power and thus the cleaning wasn't optimal?
Anyway, you might get it fixed easy and cheap. Never been abled to use one (Europe), but if they are that good, keep it. If not: I can only recomend Bosch again: Efficent, silent, durable and cleans perfectly. I have yet to find something that wasn't cleaned at all. And the filter is really self-cleaning. We clean ours every 2 or 3 months and never had problems.



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