Thread Number: 54057
First HE top Load??
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Post# 764185   6/17/2014 at 09:25 (3,572 days old) by brastemp (Brazil)        

I found the picture of that panel recently, but never saw this model. This would be the first top load model with HE system? Anybody have more info about this washer, like model, pictures, videos, manual?

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Post# 764187 , Reply# 1   6/17/2014 at 10:21 (3,572 days old) by mrb627 (Buford, GA)        
Resource Saver

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Traditional wash action with a series of recirculating spin/sprays for rinsing. Good performer if I recall correctly.

Malcolm


Post# 764188 , Reply# 2   6/17/2014 at 10:30 (3,572 days old) by DADoES (TX, U.S. of A.)        

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The Resource Saver washer is HE only in terms of rinsing (several saturation/shower/extract rinse periods).  Washing is traditional deep-fill agitation.  HE detergent is not required.  Based on the tech info, it uses the same drain valve and a secondary pressure switch like the Catalyst but for the rinse function instead of the catalyst pretreat function.

The Resource Saver machine was introduced ~1996, the Catalyst ~2000.


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Post# 764190 , Reply# 3   6/17/2014 at 10:43 (3,572 days old) by logixx (Germany)        

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Let me see if this works:

Manual
dl.owneriq.net/f/fa0e6523-2d1b-40...

Service Manual

secured.whirlpool.com/Service/Sr...


Post# 764281 , Reply# 4   6/17/2014 at 21:51 (3,572 days old) by brastemp (Brazil)        

Hmm .. very interesting.
This washer was not popular, or at least no one posted about it on AW. I'm still curious to see this process of sprays, looks so modern for such an old washer.


Post# 764287 , Reply# 5   6/17/2014 at 22:38 (3,572 days old) by mielerod69 (Australia)        
Here is a video of how it works

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Here is part 1 of 3 parts of a jeans load. Has a bit of F & P features of the detergent activation wash

CLICK HERE TO GO TO mielerod69's LINK


Post# 764304 , Reply# 6   6/18/2014 at 01:44 (3,572 days old) by whirlcool (Just North Of Houston, Texas)        

I'll take a deep rinse any day....



Post# 764310 , Reply# 7   6/18/2014 at 04:11 (3,572 days old) by mrb627 (Buford, GA)        
Government

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I seem to recall that these were very popular with government contracts. There was a company near here that was selling machines that came off government contracts. The guy I talked to said he had purchased three semi's full of them at auction and was reselling them on Craigslist.

Malcolm


Post# 764328 , Reply# 8   6/18/2014 at 07:09 (3,571 days old) by kenmoreguy89 (Valenza Piemonte, Italy- Soon to be US immigrant.)        
Looks like

kenmoreguy89's profile picture
Those ultimate cares resource saver have been somewhat popular in Europe , well, i have seen some among american top loaders sold and imported, not many but some, and not popular generally speaking of washing nachines....
Pretty strange that in US they had whirlpol coming from Governem contracts....well, not strange maybe, but I thought it was Speed Queen/Raytheon instead, both my speed queen washer and dryer came from an US marine base family, the washer still have " property of US government" sticker on it, they said all the laundry equipments they had in the base was SQ, and military families lving there were bought speed queens by the govt imported from the US....
But perhaps, it changed and changes with the years...govt by govt.
I would never go without my deep rinse.... This machine is not for me...




This post was last edited 06/18/2014 at 07:39
Post# 764335 , Reply# 9   6/18/2014 at 08:04 (3,571 days old) by logixx (Germany)        

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Wasn't the first HE top loader the Apex with the bouncing basket?

The video is the Catalyst wash (or pretreat) action. The Resource Saver sprayed during the rinse. Not thrilled about the 100F hot wash.


Post# 764338 , Reply# 10   6/18/2014 at 08:21 (3,571 days old) by henene4 (Heidenheim a.d. Brenz (Germany))        

Would it be possible to tweak a true hot wash by setting it to soak, set hot water, let it fill and than advance to the normal wash cycle?
Anyway, this kind of spin-rinsing is better than the spray tiny bits of water, than spin right away method. I *could* imagine someone (maybe SQ if the design a higher efficeny model) reusing this sort of design....


Post# 764339 , Reply# 11   6/18/2014 at 08:31 (3,571 days old) by kenmoreguy89 (Valenza Piemonte, Italy- Soon to be US immigrant.)        

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HE....it all depends what you mean for efficiency..,.according to today's mindset, dictated by marketing and trends ..probably it translates in everything using less water and energy than others...
Well, since the Apex does have another washing action than an agitator, then I think that about automatics top loaders what comes first in this sense would be a launderall (1948 vs 1953 of the Apex) or any other h axis that has to be loaded on the top....but go figure..
We are still speaking of top loaders...they are top loaders, one bouncing the other tumbling?
That's why I don't really like the specification "Top loader" to refer to agitator machines.....and front loader for H axis machines.
They're sort of misleading....
If we meant "Top load" as synonim of "agitator washer" then do not know....it could not have been the Apex, it didn't have an agitator, but a bouncing/oscillatory basket...






This post was last edited 06/18/2014 at 09:18
Post# 764352 , Reply# 12   6/18/2014 at 10:13 (3,571 days old) by foraloysius (Leeuwarden, Friesland, the Netherlands)        

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Here's the manual:

laundry.manualsonline.com/manuals...

I think we might have discussed this machine on the old Yahoo group, considering the age of the machine.

More about this machine:

www.thefreelibrary.com/NewPLUSMAR...


Post# 764436 , Reply# 13   6/18/2014 at 16:50 (3,571 days old) by logixx (Germany)        
henene

logixx's profile picture
That might be possible. The service manual says the prewash cycle bypasses the ATC and delievers uncontrolled cold and warm water - nothing about hot, though. It also mentiones that the cold valve will stay off as long as the water doesn't exceed 120F. However, I can't figure out if that still relates to the prewash setting.

As for reintroducing that system: Whirlpool uses both the Catalyst prewash as well as spray rinsing (depending on the selected cycle and options) in the better Cabrio and Bravos models. And F&P, too. I think spray rinses are a good idea as long as the spray really covers the entire load and it probably won't do much for removing hair or even zeolites used in powdered detergent.


Post# 764445 , Reply# 14   6/18/2014 at 17:13 (3,571 days old) by DADoES (TX, U.S. of A.)        

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Can't know for sure but seems the Resource Saver rinses use more water (1 to 2 gallons per the doctrine) than the Catalyst model runs for the pretreatment.  Notice per the video that the fill is very brief, and even considering the top-ups that occur during the process it doesn't appear to approach 2 gallons.

I've used the shower rinse option on my F&Ps several times, it's effective.


Post# 764461 , Reply# 15   6/18/2014 at 18:10 (3,571 days old) by kenmoreguy89 (Valenza Piemonte, Italy- Soon to be US immigrant.)        

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While I understand a spray rinse and so a soak&spin rinse or catalyst rinse, as I find it being a huge help for extra soap removal for the next deep rinse, and even ok alone in some istances if repeated the times necessary, I don't though understand or find normal/sensed a pre-wash like the catalyst, not to mention main wash...

When I was little, like 6-8 years old I I used to wonder if one day there might have been a washer washing thanks to centrifugal force and soapy water sprayed, pretty much like catalyst or that Samsung model I don't recall the name ...but as I grew up I came to realize this would not have been an effective and sensed method to be, actually total nuts washing action not worth anything....but I was little and tons of BS crossed my mind at times....I am amazed to see how such things in today's world can make sense for someone.
In Europe, there was Zanussi with the Jet system washers, but it wasn't a great success, apparently, anyway nothing to do with with a real spray and centrifugal action, meant to wash.... almost, if not totally useless for that matter, just like the catalyst action..IMO.



Post# 764578 , Reply# 16   6/19/2014 at 13:10 (3,570 days old) by foraloysius (Leeuwarden, Friesland, the Netherlands)        

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Well Freddy,

I don't know on what you based your opinion about the Zanussi Jetsystem models, is it from own experience with these machines? Have you ever used such a machine?


Post# 764580 , Reply# 17   6/19/2014 at 13:17 (3,570 days old) by henene4 (Heidenheim a.d. Brenz (Germany))        
Ahm, uh, sorry, but...

1. Who is Freddy?
2. Are you sure you are in the right post?
3. If so, what are you reffering to?
You just simply kicked me of my rail with that... I need some help to get this back in order now...


Post# 764585 , Reply# 18   6/19/2014 at 13:51 (3,570 days old) by kenmoreguy89 (Valenza Piemonte, Italy- Soon to be US immigrant.)        

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:D ahahah...
Freddy it's me, I prefer being called with my own name instead of my sad website nickname...sad as I don't usually like nicknames and avatar, but it's just me...

Yes Louis. Well, let's say I didn't use it myself, meant as load or unload by myself, but I have seen it used a couple times from my aunt in Veneto, hers was the older type with the water outtake through the drum holes on the top, more like a rain than a jet.
Said that, I don't anyway think I need to have tried all the stuff in this world to have an opinion about.... Despite this techology is still used todays and even introduced for Aeg, correct? , I really find little use, they claims it should increase the washing as it keeps stuff moist? And recirculate water...I don't see and picture how this would increase washing ability in any ways....or do something for that matter...i think it's more for scene, like a fountain...LOL
I have also seen a bosch...about early 2000ish model that would spray water similarly of what today's jet system does, even though it didn't recirculate it, and it was just for first portion of fill in prewash, wash and rinse, not even the detergent water but just plain water...I.found little sense in that also...
But that's another thing....


Post# 764587 , Reply# 19   6/19/2014 at 14:06 (3,570 days old) by foraloysius (Leeuwarden, Friesland, the Netherlands)        

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Those are different models than the Jetsystem models that spin all the time during the wash phase. I thought you were talking about those models.

Same actually for the other machines we are discussing in this thread. Everybody is entitled to their opinion, but I prefer hands on experience. I could imagine that that spraying with a concentrated solution of detergent works as a kind of pretreatment. It's possible it works.


Post# 764590 , Reply# 20   6/19/2014 at 14:17 (3,570 days old) by kenmoreguy89 (Valenza Piemonte, Italy- Soon to be US immigrant.)        

kenmoreguy89's profile picture
I knew as I think I have read or heard somewhere that there were Rex models that spun during wash....but didn't know they were jet system also, were they? I don't recall having seen my aunt's one doing that but it stated jetsystem on the door..but i wasn't around it all the time.
Anyway same matter, IIRC....about machines with "spin action" there were also privileg right? Or Brandt? i usually confuse the two...
The sangiorgio we had in our company use to do a similar thing in a cycle...sangiorgio iis involved with Brandt now...so was the brandt brand?
Seems to remember there was another with that spinning feature in the past...




Post# 764593 , Reply# 21   6/19/2014 at 14:25 (3,570 days old) by foraloysius (Leeuwarden, Friesland, the Netherlands)        

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Privileg was built by Zanussi. Brandt is a French brand, totally different.

Post# 764595 , Reply# 22   6/19/2014 at 14:30 (3,570 days old) by kenmoreguy89 (Valenza Piemonte, Italy- Soon to be US immigrant.)        

kenmoreguy89's profile picture
Ah, so it was the privileg probably...didn't know it was zanussi stuff also, i thought it being german or belgian as there many over there, then it was the privileg, I recalled right...


Post# 764597 , Reply# 23   6/19/2014 at 14:32 (3,570 days old) by kenmoreguy89 (Valenza Piemonte, Italy- Soon to be US immigrant.)        

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P.s
Thanks for clearing that up.


Post# 764599 , Reply# 24   6/19/2014 at 14:40 (3,570 days old) by murando531 (Augusta, Georgia - US)        

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I think many cases of performance when it comes to spray-rinses depend on the load size and soil level. If there are just a few items, or even a small load piled enough to reach to the top of the lower agitator, a spray rinse is fine, considering the falling water can at least fall on the clothes and use enough water to soak them. There's no need to fill up a complete second time. But, when used with a full load, where the clothes easily compress against the basket walls during the spin enough to reach the top of the basket itself, and the spray from the flume can't even touch the higher items, it's hardly effective. In addition to the fact that there is a lot more fabric that the water has to travel through with the spins between spray rinses. I can see that being the reason why these Resource-Saver WPs didn't last long, because when clothes are compacted against the basket during the spin, the threads become tighter, and water can't pass as easily, so it just has to find areas of less density to go through.

I actually did an experiment with our KitchenAid long before manufacturers decided that only spray rinsing was enough. I let the clothes wash, drain, and begin spinning, and then I set the timer to the final spin and pulled the garden hose through the window, and put the nozzle on a decently wide spray. I just let the machine spin the clothes while I sprayed them with the hose. The clothes become almost solid when they're spinning, so there was a lot of splattering from the water bouncing off of them (thank goodness my parents weren't home.) After about 3-4 minutes of that, I set it for another spin and let it finish. Upon taking the clothes out and fluffing them, it was like looking at stained glass, because you could actually see spots where suds were still trapped, where other spots seemed rinsed clean. Since then I've always believed that even in HE washers, it's more important for the clothes to freely move in water on the rinse cycle than even the wash, because that's where you need the remaining soap and dirt to be flushed away.

I know that washers now use a slower process in spray rinsing (which should be called sprinkle rinsing honestly) but even so, if the clothes can't flex and move to break the detergent molecules away, they're never going to be rinsed completely through.


Post# 764608 , Reply# 25   6/19/2014 at 15:24 (3,570 days old) by henene4 (Heidenheim a.d. Brenz (Germany))        
Back on track now...

Was just completly surprised as we were only talking about US TLs till then.
Our Panasonic did sometimes a short distry- rinse at the begining of the 1st rinse on cottons. It removed a certain amount of suds. But I think that at least some sort of movement is necessary. A FL could simply tumble without any free solution, just wet clothes. An Apex/Calypso could do fluffing motion. But any other type needs a lot of water to do so.


Post# 764692 , Reply# 26   6/20/2014 at 04:49 (3,570 days old) by kenmoreguy89 (Valenza Piemonte, Italy- Soon to be US immigrant.)        

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There are many factors involved in shower/spray rinsing, having my filter flo in front of the bathtub and having the shower thing from it reaching the tub I did every possible experiment during the time, I also tried spraying with drain hose and soapy water simulating what calypso does...you know, just silly playing around and doing "experiments"....we all like to play or did experiments with our machines..no?
Taking about rinse:
I think the typical spray rinse in "traditional" machines is great to guarantee a good deep rinse, making one enough most of the times or anyway often, this instead of two that may be excessive and result wasteful.
Shower/spray rinsing system:
Yes with the right techniques you may actually get an acceptable rinse in some cases, low spin, damp, spin higher, slow damp and higher again subsequently is what I found most effective and so continued until you don't see anynore traces of soap in the drain water and made sure all got through enough evenly, much depends on load composition (type of fibers) and size of load so thickness of the layer of clothes you have..but generally larger loads do not get rinsed well, at least a part does others doesn't or not evenly, anyway nor nearly acceptable as they will not be evenly rinsed....much more noticeable on colors also after dry.
Clothes over clothes ie layered clothes never works well for that matter, and especially not for washing IMO which is well different than rinsing soap or detergents, much is also dictated by the pressure/ centrifugal force these clothes are subject to, ..less fast-less compact, but as long as you need clothes pressed by centrifugal force in the tub sides they will be passed through by water more easily or less easily according also to other factors, but surely not as if they were freely soaked in water and agitated, the effectiveness also hugely depends on how much stuff and what stuff there's behind them (thicker or thinner layer of clothes) , what clothes composition is, etc....
This is also a thing you'll experience if you have a twin tub, the procedure of my servis infact states filling spinner cylinder for some minutes and activate the spinner with water still running in order to keep a constant flow of water and keep spinner going slower...if you try to spray rinse as it kicks a greater speed you'll notice how water instead of going through the clothes will glide over them and will move vertically instead of horizontally....in a top loader it happens the same.
Me almost never running partial loads would not want to go with a shower rinse-spin only as I could see how this may often not bring to what I define well rinsed and anyway nor great, but I cannot really say it being unuseful, in certain cases it's possible it provides a good rinse, but cannot though see a washing machine for how "intelligent" it is being able to determine how and when it's been effective or not, no even having an hypothetical sensor to test detergent concentration in drain water, as there are others factors than that and that a machine cannot see, I think that to today nothing can be a reliable substitute for human eye and mind for that matter, but that's my opinion about...




This post was last edited 06/20/2014 at 10:41

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