Thread Number: 54232
Whirlpool's new dishwasher motors
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Post# 766270   6/27/2014 at 00:28 (2,062 days old) by murando531 (Huntsville, AL)        

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I was in Lowe's today, and for whatever reason a new Whirlpool dishwasher was upside down on a dolly. Not sure if it was a display or what, but the door was bent. I took the opportunity to scope out the underside since I've never seen the motor assembly in person, but I didn't get to sneak pictures.

I have to say, I knew that WP was putting much, much less powerful motors in their line along with their KitchenAid and Kenmore models, but I was shocked to realize that the main wash pump is literally a slightly larger induction motor, identical to the motors being used as the independent drain pumps in washers and dishwashers.

It makes sense now why they can't use all arms at once, or have a chopper blade equipped; they simply don't have the power. This is also the same motor type that is used in fountain pumps, and the one that sometimes makes sort of a chatter when kicking on in your washer/dw during drains because the magnetic pulses kick the rotor back and forth rapidly until it has enough momentum to spin in one direction or the other. On one hand it's to be expected with the energy "issues" these days, but I would never think that a glorified drain pump would have the power needed to put out good volume and pressure from the spray arms in a dishwasher.

This also makes me wonder that if you put your ear down next to the machine when it starts up, will you hear that telltale chatter that induction motors sometimes make? I'd also like to hear anyone's experience with these models, as this type of motor typically isn't supposed to run more than a little while at a time.


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Post# 766272 , Reply# 1   6/27/2014 at 00:37 (2,062 days old) by murando531 (Huntsville, AL)        

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I also looked up the drain pump for my 2012 Whirlpool washer, and posted pictures below. They almost look identical, and according to the ratings on the labels they almost are. The times I've pulled the hose over into the tub to recirculate water when deep cleaning the machine, the volume and pressure coming out are okay, but they're just a trickle in comparison to the power of the AC motors found in the previous gen WPs and current Maytags.

Now I wish someone I know would install one just so I could run a GoPro inside it and see how they truly perform inside, and so I could hear what one sounds like of course.


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Post# 766292 , Reply# 2   6/27/2014 at 04:39 (2,062 days old) by arbilab (Ft Worth TX (Ridglea))        

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Those aren't even "statue pissing into pond" motors. Unless you can tolerate your statue pissing 10min out of every hour and absolutely no more. They are extremely inefficient, a figure of merit worse than the previous shaded-pole small pump motor.

Note the duty cycle on the label(s). Absolutely no more than 50%, and as low as 20%. That's because they get SO HOT in those short operating times they are in danger of smoking the coil insulation.

The 'Maytag Man' had one out of the coinop Neptune downstairs, accidentally touched the motor part and it burned the tihs out of him. You could even SMELL how hot it was.

Manufacturers love them. There are no bearings and no seals. There's not even a shaft. I can't imagine using that style motor as a dishwasher pump unless it was drain only.


Post# 766296 , Reply# 3   6/27/2014 at 05:31 (2,062 days old) by Frigilux (The Minnesota Prairie)        

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How does it manage a 50% on/50% off protocol during a dishwasher cycle? Does it run for, say, one minute, then pause for one minute before switching racks?

Post# 766302 , Reply# 4   6/27/2014 at 06:11 (2,062 days old) by mrb627 (Buford, GA)        
Interesting Topic

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I also noticed from the label that the motor is made in Italy.
I'm also curious about the 15 on/15 off label. It strikes me as a bit undersized for a recirculating pump. Perhaps it is a clue as to why the door was bent...

Malcolm

On a side note, Askoll builds pumps for almost every manufacturer out there...



Post# 766306 , Reply# 5   6/27/2014 at 06:28 (2,062 days old) by tolivac (greenville nc)        

I beleive the limited duty shaded pole pump motor was for draining the tank only.It would only run during the drain cycle.There isn't even the little "tin fan" on the motor to help cool it.Remember in days past these had the little tin fans on them.But the so called dishwasher wash pump motor not much better power wise than the drain motor.SAD-Won't buy ANY new dishwasher if this is what you get.This is getting really low!!

Post# 766337 , Reply# 6   6/27/2014 at 12:06 (2,061 days old) by chetlaham (United States)        

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If speed queen made dishwashers... I don't think we would be seeing this on their machines. Just when I when the pumps couldn't get tinier they have.


Im going to be honest, consumers are catching on. I hear more complaints in stores about how long the new machines take to finish. One lady put it well "I just want a dishwasher like my old one", when the sales guy said she would have to clean the filter at the bottom of the thing.


Post# 766362 , Reply# 7   6/27/2014 at 14:40 (2,061 days old) by henene4 (Germany)        
80W recirc pump???

OK? I mean, don't get me wrong, but even our A+++ -10% DW still use pumps 150W or more. This is a joke.
Especially, if I think about it, DW with varibale speed/presure/power pumps now run down to the 500 price range, I can't get that. These units can change speed and thus usage and power. They are like the brushless motor to washers: Silenter, more efficent, over all more durable and more flexible. So, using these pumps (and Askoll produces such as well as far as I know) allows you to do a long, low pressure wash profile as well as a power blast. And they are not a thing that would launch prices...


Post# 766373 , Reply# 8   6/27/2014 at 15:27 (2,061 days old) by murando531 (Huntsville, AL)        

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I guess that would also explain why the manuals on the new WP/KM/KA dishwashers state that "Your new dishwasher will pause periodically to allow the detergent to soak". I guess if it didn't, these little pumps would burn out quickly.

Like someone said earlier, I never thought I'd see this type motor used for anything BUT draining, because there's simply no power behind them. They work well for that purpose, but they are slower at getting the job of emptying the machine than previous systems.

I wish I had gotten pictures of the upside down dishwasher. The pictures you see on the internet are misleading, because the camera angles make it seem larger. In person it's almost pitiful. There's alot of empty space under these machines, that's for sure.


Post# 766386 , Reply# 9   6/27/2014 at 18:57 (2,061 days old) by washman (o)        
Well we got what we wanted?

Right?

So much for being green or efficient. I'm 1.5 hours into a 3 hour cycle on the eco-sanctioned GE.

It pauses too throughout the cycle. All the manual says is this is "normal" operation but I suspect as noted above that the cheap made someplace else besides here motor just can't handle running full chat for 3 hours.


Post# 766387 , Reply# 10   6/27/2014 at 19:00 (2,061 days old) by washer111 ()        
Ouch...

I honestly think the future of dishwasher motors will be similar to the ones used in pond-pumps... Those use a magnetic casing, and impeller, so the impeller itself becomes a motor and pump.

 

This is the method used in the DishDrawer. It might only draw <100w of power, but it moves PLENTY of water around (single wash-arm - but not a "rain shower," its more like a thunderstorm), never has to stop to let the water return to the sump, and it doesn't seem to mind gobbling rice every now and then. 

 

 


Post# 766393 , Reply# 11   6/27/2014 at 19:35 (2,061 days old) by DADoES (TX,U.S. of A.)        

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DishDrawer pump is rated 60w. 3-phase, 80V DC. Runs at 2,300 to 2,850 RPM for recirculation, reverses to 4,200 RPM for drain.


Post# 766400 , Reply# 12   6/27/2014 at 20:31 (2,061 days old) by murando531 (Huntsville, AL)        

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Which is why I plan to take care of my Maytag MDB4709 so that it lasts as long as it possibly can. I also plan to find a WP PowerClean model to restore. I'd love a Hobart KitchenAid or a Maytag Reverse-Rack, but realistically it would be harder to maintain with the scarcity of parts now, much less 10-20 years from now. I'd use it as the daily driver since they're easy to work on, and if for some reason down the road I have difficulty finding parts, I'd have the Maytag. Granted, this is the plan unless the industry turns itself around and starts building quality machines again. With real motors.

Post# 766404 , Reply# 13   6/27/2014 at 21:41 (2,061 days old) by jerrod6 (Philadelphia(center city), Pennsylvania)        

Hmm and these new things take 3 hours to get the job done.  I guess that might be what a trickle of water is capable of.  It's a shame, and how long are these motors going to last?

 

 

Shameful.


Post# 766412 , Reply# 14   6/27/2014 at 22:26 (2,061 days old) by logixx (Germany)        

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In all fairness, though, size ain't everything.


Dishwashers have developed a little bit since they were first introduced. The big ol' tub with the impeller at the bottom is gone. Today's dishwashers have narrow water paths, spray jets that aim at the dishes and not the tub, tubs and sumps designed to allow water to flow into the pump quickly and quietly. Computers simulate the water flow and engineers can virtually redesign components that cause unwanted turbulence in the water. It's a similar thing with vacuum cleaners: in Europe, we're used to vacuums with 2.000 and more watts motors, when most US vacuums have much less than that. Still, I don't think all of your carpets are dirty (powerheads aside). When Bosch released its new platform, the wattage of the pump was reduced but the overall water circulation increased by 130 gallons because several parts were redesigned.

I'm wondering if these long cycles are an American (or even a Whirlpool) phenomenon. European dishwashers have more powerful heaters, maybe that's what helps them to be faster. On the other hand, they usually run off a cold-water connection. Whirlpool's fastest wash cycle is the One Hour Wash that excludes a drying portion. My Bosch does a load in 55 minutes with drying. V-Zug takes 45 minutes for two washes, two rinses and drying. Now, those are of course not the Eco cycles but they still use less than the One Hour Wash. It really seems Whirlpool started making some slow dishwashers. I don't think Maytags or GEs are that slow.

Today, I ran across one of these Miele Professional dishwashers that look just like a domestic machine. These circulate 50 gpm. It was a showroom model but still sold for over 2.000 Euros. The new undercounter models even go up to 105 gpm. How much did tje old Hobarts blast through their wash arms?


Post# 766416 , Reply# 15   6/27/2014 at 23:00 (2,061 days old) by Magic_Clean (Florida)        
The picture illustrates

the actual wash pump & motor that is used in Whirlpool tall tub dishwashers since 2011. (There is a separate drain pump motor) Certain models operate both wash arms simultaneously. Others have a flow diverter that allows the wash arms to work independently with a smaller amount of water per fill.

As noted in Logixx message, the filter based wash systems of today are quite different from machines of the past. However, they are more than capable of performing their task. Like any dishwasher, properly installed, dishes racked with some common sense and good detergent and rinse aid..........you'll get clean dishes with modest water & energy use.

...L.P.





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Post# 766417 , Reply# 16   6/27/2014 at 23:04 (2,061 days old) by washer111 ()        
Size Certainly ISN'T Everyting

Logixx, this is pretty much 100% correct. 

 

If the machine's efficiency in circulation is improved, from better circulation pathways and sprayers, to better filter screens, then water flow can theoretically be increased, and cycles shortened, even with decreasing amounts of water. 

 

As Glenn said, a 60w, 3-phase pump at 80v is more than enough to create a thunderstorm in the DishDrawer, yet the machine uses about 2.3L per fill. 

The design is clearly evolved enough to move the water where it's needed and still produce remarkable results. 

As I've stated time after time, I can get great results in just 60 minutes, without resorting to "heavy" cycles. Given three rinses, it isn't exactly frugal, however. 


Post# 766421 , Reply# 17   6/27/2014 at 23:30 (2,061 days old) by murando531 (Huntsville, AL)        

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It's not really the size that is the issue, but rather the type of motor they decided to use. These induction motors have very low power output in relation to the amount of energy they run on. The full-sized AC motor in the new Maytag is rated at 2.7 amps, but it has a very nice brute force output, running at almost 1/3 HP, so in the sense of power vs. energy consumed, it's very efficient, and can run for a long time without needing to cool. The PowerClean outputs 1/3 HP at 5.3 amps, if that gives any idea of the improvement. The motor used in the new WP is only a slightly more involved version of aquarium/pond pumps, which are a simple impeller attached to a cylindrical magnet, inserted into a water tight hub. They work well for continuous use in aquariums and ponds because they're submerged and water cooled as the water can move between the magnet cylinder and hub. In this machine however, they're not under water, and even if they were hot water in a dishwasher can't cool them.

They work tremendously as drain pumps on appliances because they only have to run for maybe five minutes at most. There is no need for force or high pressure because it only needs to move the water from point A to point B.

Maybe it's an attack of nostalgia for me, because I always loved Whirlpool PowerClean and Point Voyager dishwashers that upon looking "under the hood", there's a nice hefty motor there to greet you, and yet while they were powerful and could chew up any food you could throw in, they were also quiet and efficient. It's depressing that what made me fall in love with Whirlpool has now been reduced to a lawn sprinkler in a box.


Post# 766429 , Reply# 18   6/28/2014 at 01:58 (2,061 days old) by tolivac (greenville nc)        

And those older DW and washer motors had FANS in them to keep them cool-and could run CONTINUOSLY!Fan in those motors was simple but effective-fins cast into the motor rotors shorting rings!Give me a big motor in the dishwasher and short cycle-happy owner-wimpy,tiny,overheating motor in a modern dishwasher-makes me want to take the stupid thing to the plinking section of the shooting range and use it AS A TARGET!!!!Then just do the dishes by hand.I can do mine in well under 3hrs-and no overheating motor worries!

Post# 766451 , Reply# 19   6/28/2014 at 08:24 (2,061 days old) by Magic_Clean (Florida)        
The wash

motor does in fact run continuously. Any pauses during the wash and rinse periods are determined by the machine control. Additionally, the wash motor powers up very smoothly and does not "chatter".

I seem to recall a AW.org member or two, recently installed a machine equipped like this. Perhaps, they'll chime in with actual fact based user experience & comments.
"You" toober has an overview as linked.

...L.P.



CLICK HERE TO GO TO Magic_Clean's LINK


Post# 766517 , Reply# 20   6/28/2014 at 15:04 (2,060 days old) by iheartmaytag (Wichita, Kansas)        

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My Kitchenaid is a year old and doesn't have a pump like that.  It still uses a squatty vertical shaft pump with a four blade chopper.  The motor doesn't run continuously, but it only stops for a few seconds when it is sensing. 

All three arms  run at the same time..  Only time the upper arms don't run is when the pro scrub is active.  Normal cycle with normal soil choosing sani rinse is about 90 minutes.


Post# 766554 , Reply# 21   6/28/2014 at 18:32 (2,060 days old) by mark_wpduet (Lexington KY)        
I looked on

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Repair Clinic for the dishwasher I just got because I was curious to see what the motor looked like and there is no motor listed under parts. Interestingly enough the control panel is out of stock which isn't a good sign, maybe??. I think I'm going to put a camera in mine to see what it looks like running. Mine has the chopper too and I think all arms run at once. So all the new WP dishwashers including Maytag & KA use the same motors?

Post# 766619 , Reply# 22   6/29/2014 at 03:21 (2,060 days old) by murando531 (Huntsville, AL)        

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mark_wpduet, your dishwasher still uses the same 2.7 amp motor that the Whirlpool Point Voyager used, although I'm pretty sure they've improved it a bit. Even the new Maytag that was just released uses almost the same motor, or else they would not have been able to use the chopper blade or run all wash arms at once, nor would they be able to tout the feature of "having the most powerful motor in the industry". Try appliancepartspros.com; the site is a little easier to navigate and I haven't found anything yet that wasn't available besides photos of the parts listed.

iheartmaytag - I would check the manufacture date on your KitchenAid's model and serial. Vertical shaft pumps have not been used in any Whirlpool built machines since the transition from the PowerClean module to the Point Voyager tall tub configuration, and that was around 2009-10. There was no Pro-Scrub/Power Scour/Turbo Zone (KitchenAid, Whirlpool, Kenmore respectively) rear-tub mounted sprayer introduced until the tall tub was around for a couple of years. If yours is a tall tub that still has a disposal blade, you probably caught the last of the Point Voyager version as they were being phased out, but it is still a horizontal shaft, although the motor is much larger than the one being used in the new WP/KA resource saver models.


Post# 766653 , Reply# 23   6/29/2014 at 08:36 (2,060 days old) by washerdude (Canada )        
New kenmore

I noted that in my new kenmore dishwasher's manual it said:

NOTE: It is normal for the dishwasher to pause sevral times during a cycle.


Post# 766769 , Reply# 24   6/29/2014 at 18:10 (2,059 days old) by iheartmaytag (Wichita, Kansas)        

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I bought the KA Feb  2013, was supposed to have been a 2012 model.  

 

Four arm lower wash arm, Pro-scrub zone in the back, tall tub, 

"Food disposer based wash system has four stainless steel blades to grind food particles which are flushed down the drain at the end of they cycle. "  It had current specs through the first of this year.  Now that model is showing the filtered wash system. 

 

I do know it was a vertical shaft motor, I was the one that wired, plumbed and installed it.

 

I will pull the ID when it finishes the dinner dishes. 




This post was last edited 06/29/2014 at 20:55
Post# 766780 , Reply# 25   6/29/2014 at 18:43 (2,059 days old) by mrb627 (Buford, GA)        
Motors

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They seem to be so widely used I doubt that they are all that poor.

 

Malcolm


Post# 766827 , Reply# 26   6/29/2014 at 22:12 (2,059 days old) by Magic_Clean (Florida)        
A few

points to clear up regarding:

*Whirlpool, Kenmore & Amana dishwashers.....current models are equipped with the single speed filter based wash pump & motor shown earlier. Certain models have alternating wash arms, others operate all spray arms at once

*Jennair, certain KitchenAid & Kenmore Elite....use a variable speed filter based wash pump & drain motors. These are the quietest operating models. Alternating spray arms

*Until the recently launched 2014 line of KitchenAid dishwashers, there were certain models that had the 4 blade disposer based wash system in addition to filter based models. With the 2014 line, they are all filter based units with alternating spray arms.

*Maytag dishwashers feature the 4 blade disposer based wash system. New models are launching now with a quieter wash pump motor. All spray arms are active.


Post# 767040 , Reply# 27   6/30/2014 at 18:02 (2,058 days old) by chetlaham (United States)        

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All in the name of energy efficiency. I still don't get why Euro type designs such as (Boschs?) that will fill a reservoir attached to the outer tub with water during the end of the main wash to transfer heat over. The reservoir is dumped in the tank for the rinse. That way energy is saved without having to resort to other more drastic 'improvements' like 80 watt motors.


Energy efficiency isn't even the whole reason. Getting the appliances to use less water and electricity at any point (I stress point) in time is an ultimate goal. Why so? That means less needs to be spent in infrastructure improvements. Appliances that draw a cup of water and pull what a night light does means that 100 year old water main can go another 20 years. Fewer sewage plants need to be built. Less power plants. Its not so much manufacturers that are doing this but government regulations supported by our own tax dollars.


IMO I don't think Whirlpool and competitors wanted this. If they could they would continue to sell what consumers look for. What consumers are used to. I know lots of AW.org folks will say consumers don't think about appliances caring nothing if the product does its job or not, and while I do agree, not entirely. Every time I go shopping I hear people complaining. Common one for DW is filters. Its no secret older machines were disposals, and people want that feature. Time bothers others. Locking lids, washers that don't fill with the lid open, long cycles, impeller washer that don't clean or tear clothes, moldy front loads (though Im hearing far less of that)... More of anything its being forced on consumers. Saving energy now trendy, but its not looking to good with todays cheap plastic that cant even get the basics right.


Post# 767097 , Reply# 28   6/30/2014 at 20:18 (2,058 days old) by murando531 (Huntsville, AL)        

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I don't think you could have said it better chetlaham. I've preached time and again: Why is money being funneled into trying to make appliances use less and less, when instead that money could be invested on finding and engineering better, more efficient ways to produce energy and refine our water. Building a machine that is more efficient is ultimately a good thing, but it's being pushed to all the wrong limits. Just like you said though, they'd rather just say "use less" rather than update our ancient power grids and water treatment methods. I think, and hope, that it will reach a breaking point. With electricity, I'd gladly take a motor that can output the same power and volume as an older one, but only use a penny's worth of energy, but as far as water, there's only so little you can use before the job isn't being done at all. And what are they going to do? Tell physics to change so that a drop works the same as a gallon? Tell humans and plants that they have to evolve to need less water? I don't think so, although I wouldn't be surprised if they tried.

At the bottom of it all I don't blame the manufacturers. They receive funding only on machines that meet those strict regulations. Anything that doesn't is out of the company's pocket, which may be why the "BOL" Whirlpool agitator model is $500, when that used to be average price for a higher end machine. I am glad that they still offer that model though, because it at least still gives the consumer a choice if they want a washer that still works like a washer. If Whirlpool were to drive sales and features to the new trendy HE dishwashers, but have one model that was a standard tub PowerClean, with basic cycles/features like Heavy-Normal-Light and Hi Temp wash, I would absolutely pay more for it. As with anything in the consumer industry, the consumer themselves should have a choice in what they're spending their money on.


Post# 767170 , Reply# 29   7/1/2014 at 05:17 (2,058 days old) by arbilab (Ft Worth TX (Ridglea))        

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False economy, stretching fractured infrastructure. Like that Minnesota bridge. New York City's water mains leak enough to fully supply most cities. Hardly worth several generations of ineffective appliances to keep a few dozen antiquated coal plants listed as 'adequate'.

And worst, why spend perfectly good money trimming ALL the trees when you can just wait until a storm knocks them into powerlines and it becomes obvious which ones needed trimming?

Speculation? Not. Austin TX has a very aggressive tree cutback policy and they also have one of the highest electric reliability rates in the country. I lived there 18 years and power never went out more than minutes. Even when a substation transformer exploded, they had the lights back on in a half hour. My first MONTH in DFW power was out more in perfectly clear calm weather than the entire time I lived in Austin. Oh, and the rates were below the nat'l average as well. It CAN be done right.


Post# 767205 , Reply# 30   7/1/2014 at 09:40 (2,058 days old) by chetlaham (United States)        
Tree triming

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Trees need to be trimmed, if they weren't we would be losing power literally every day. Trees continue to grow until they touch something like an energized wire. You then get smoke fire and sparks with outages to boot. If is on super large high tension towers you get massive black outs. Tree trimming before hand needs to be done.

However, I agree, for the rates we pay we ought to have an ultra updated infrastructure. I have lived in towns that have municipal water, power, sewer and even garbage pick up. All of it is light years ahead of investor owned infrastructure. I never lost power, water never left red iron streaks in the sink. Sewer rates were actually lower as hard as that is to believe. Compare that to the behemoth companies that serve several states power outages are a norm for every thunderstorm.

Any way, about them 80 watt motors. By taking a machine that took 30 minutes to wash your clothes 2 hours or a DW that took 1 hours to do them now in "trendy green" 6 hours you spread that power consumption over time. Less energy over a longer period of time multiplied millions of appliances means you get more out of antique infrastructure. Appliance makers are even working on smart chip appliances, that, when a signal is given will automatically drop power/water usage. That equates to come summer heat wave grid operators can automatically control your own appliances because it was cheaper for you to buy something micro chipped then building a much needed power plant.

The real reason the energy star movement exits written above. Consumers are eating a bill for an infrastructure upgrade while they think its "just being green". It might be green if these machines lasted more than 5 years but they don't. Town dumps are now filling with machines that 5 years ago were the "future of ----- (insert your home appliance here)". Yes, I see that future. Overpriced plastic lasting 3-5 years singing cute jingles while your dishes/clothes come out looking like they did when you put them in.


Post# 767371 , Reply# 31   7/2/2014 at 04:37 (2,057 days old) by arbilab (Ft Worth TX (Ridglea))        

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What you said, Chet.

Post# 770564 , Reply# 32   7/13/2014 at 14:36 (2,045 days old) by washerdude (Canada )        

Are you seroius? 3 hours for a normal wash? Well I quess people will use it overnight then i guess or if the need dishwashes fast, they will wash them by hand or use the 1 hour wash, if it doesnt pause to often to even get them clean on that cycle.... Our new dishwasher's normal cycle is 105 minutes (1 hour and 75minutes - 2.25 hours) which is......okay for us. And did anybody else notice that the heated dry option is completly optional? Because when heated dry was off it just completes the cycle without waiting the 32 minutes this is especially noticble in 1 hour wash.

Post# 770567 , Reply# 33   7/13/2014 at 14:57 (2,045 days old) by henene4 (Germany)        
What now?

105 min (1 hour 45 min) or 2h 15 min? Thats a difference for sure...
And heated dry is excluded quite a while now. Anyway, I always wonder why it is so important. EU DW have no heated dry since what-do-I-know...


Post# 770589 , Reply# 34   7/13/2014 at 16:54 (2,045 days old) by donprohel (I live in Munich - Germany, but I am Italian)        
"EU DW have no heated dry"

well, yes and no: European dishwashers do not have a dedicated heater for drying (and this saves a component) but the temperature of the last rinse is about 70C (158F) and dishes are dried because they are hot (and that's why plastic does not dry in a dishwasher).

I suspect that heating the water of the last rinse uses more energy than a heated dry (heating the air) would


Post# 770596 , Reply# 35   7/13/2014 at 17:20 (2,045 days old) by henene4 (Germany)        
I doubt that...

Actually, final rinses are done at 65 usually. And giving the fact that a) there is not more than 4l of water to heat and b) heated drying takes the good part of half an hour, we end up with a somewhat tied situation: Better overall drying performance versus less energy usage and less chance of damage to dishes...

Post# 795173 , Reply# 36   11/20/2014 at 21:29 (1,915 days old) by GELaundry4ever (Killeen tx USA)        
Very dissatisfied!

My mom has a Kenmore dishwasher with the new filtration system while my dad has the Whirlpool Gold dishwasher with the tried and true hard food disposer system! I can't believe that Whirlpool has jettisoned their hard food disposers in their dishwashers! Very dissatisfied!

CLICK HERE TO GO TO GELaundry4ever's LINK


Post# 795176 , Reply# 37   11/20/2014 at 21:54 (1,915 days old) by joeypete (Concord, NH)        

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I have a new Frigidaire mid range model with the digital display. Mine does alternate between upper and lower blades and it does pause too. I was wondering why it did that. Very interesting. I have to say though, that it cleans exceptionally well. The longest cycle is just about 2 hours which doesn't seem overly long to me. Even on the "Top Rack" setting, it's just over an hour and cleans great.

The GE machines still advertise the "Piranha" food disposer. Maybe it's better to get a cheap Hotpoint model. LOL. I almost did actually. I was going to ad some sound insulation to make it a little quieter. They are simple decent machines and still use a timer and manual buttons!


Post# 795273 , Reply# 38   11/21/2014 at 15:47 (1,914 days old) by washerdude (Canada )        
Strange pattern..

Our new kenmore actully performs pretty well. It has a filter in it. I've noticed there is a few second delay for the top sprayer. After resuming a cycle, you will hear the bottom spray arm turn on, but on top, you can hear water just spraying in one area. Few seconds later, the control board makes a clicking noise and then you can hear the water for the top sprayer moving around. This does not happen on the 1 hour wash cycle. Strange.

Post# 795567 , Reply# 39   11/23/2014 at 04:49 (1,913 days old) by askolover (South of Nash Vegas, TN)        

askolover's profile picture
Repair clinic still has motors for my Maytag DWC7602AAB dishwasher...I too have been looking for an older KA like mom's KUDI23 or even before, but am concerned about finding parts although currently they also have the motor for her's too. I just may order a new motor for mine and keep it running. I almost got sucked into the stainless tub craze a few months ago until I ran across this website and have been reading people's realtime reviews on the new dishwashers. Suddenly my noisy unit isn't so noisy...after all, it does actually BLOW the soil right off the dishes in a short time. I actually emailed KA and MT to ask about the power ratings of their new motors...both wrote me back to tell me they no longer have HP ratings. I just translated that to mean they are ashamed to tell us how weak they actually are.

Post# 796638 , Reply# 40   11/30/2014 at 11:47 (1,905 days old) by Tomturbomatic (Beltsville, MD)        

I can't believe that people are so concerned about having a dishwasher be silent. To those of us who can remember having to wash dishes by hand after every meal every day, the noise from a dishwasher was music to our less delicate ears, although old Hotpoints seemed noisier than other brands.

The whole reason for the tiny pumps is that the tall tubs have such a shallow sump that they cannot hold enough water over the pump intake to allow a more powerful pump to maintain a constant feed. It's ironic that the taller tub, with a greater distance from bottom to top, and needing more power to force the water to the top of the tank, has to do it with a smaller pump. There is little reason for tall tubs except that, by design, they cannot use as much water so people were sold a shortcoming as a feature. Then, even with reduced water capacity in the sump, they reduced the after rinses to one. People with back and joint problems find bending down to unload the lower rack can be uncomfortable. The government energy regulators, however, demanded energy and water consumption standards and the appliance manufacturers got paid off for coming up with appliances that met or exceeded them. As stated above, all of this is in place of having utility monopolies spend money to modernize our power generation and distribution systems, money that instead goes to investors, and they are the ones, not consumers, who are running things in a government of the monied, by the monied and for the monied.


Post# 796645 , Reply# 41   11/30/2014 at 12:18 (1,905 days old) by henene4 (Germany)        
Silent dishwasher

Why is it a fault to be concerned about the noise of an applaince? If you buy a home, you take care if it is near a highway or airport. At least if you can afford it.
If you have a house/flat with an open kitchen, or you work a lot in the kitchen, or you just hate these back-ground noises, a silent DW is worth any penny it cost more.
If I sit in our kitchen, and our fully-loaded 45dB Bosch DW runs and nothing else is turned on, it sounds rather hearable. But if than our fridge turns on, and is just about as loud as the DW, you just recognize how silent everything is. If you than heat a cup of milk in the microwave, you suddenly ask your self "Is the DW still on?".
And the smaller pumps are there because they are smaller. And less water is used. The sump is designed by the pump-specifications, not the other way arround.


Post# 796650 , Reply# 42   11/30/2014 at 12:43 (1,905 days old) by mrb627 (Buford, GA)        
Lifestyle

mrb627's profile picture
Nowadays, kitchens are part of the living space, not in a separate room behind a swinging door. So, silence is paramount!

Malcolm


Post# 796653 , Reply# 43   11/30/2014 at 12:57 (1,905 days old) by murando531 (Huntsville, AL)        

murando531's profile picture
I think there are varying degrees of noise level that don't relate to any dB rating. In my opinion, the Whirlpool Power Clean and Voyager platform dishwashers with at least a Quiet Partner II package are beautifully quiet. Can you hear that it is running? Yes, but what you hear is a low, barely noticeable hum, and the muffled sloshing of water inside. One you're about 6 feet away, you can't even tell they're on unless it's the ONLY thing running in the house at the moment.

Now, take the BOL Whirlpool Durawash machines, with the spray tower, and better yet, the GE dishwashers with the tower, THOSE are unacceptably loud. It isn't the motor that is the problem, it's the overly rhythmic racket of the spray from the tower revolving around the tub, plus the lack of any good insulation at all. On top of that, the detergent cups are loud enough to startle you if you don't expect the sound or know what it is.

I feel there is a fine line between noise that is soothing versus noise that is disturbing when it comes to machines like washers and dishwashers. I myself don't desire any machine to be dead quiet because I do want to know that it is functioning properly, but I agree that I don't want a machine that disturbs the peace when you're trying to watch a movie or have a conversation in the kitchen. When the manufacturer pays attention to the details and there is proper sound insulation, a dishwasher with a larger motor and a self clean disposal system can be nearly silent.

I have noticed that while the new WP models with the filter are extremely quiet, the kick panel on the bottom has no padding at all, whereas the new Maytags that still use the same 2.7 amp motor they used in the Voyager design have a piece of thick insulation adhered to the kickplate, and both machines sound nearly alike.


Post# 796679 , Reply# 44   11/30/2014 at 14:55 (1,905 days old) by DADoES (TX,U.S. of A.)        

dadoes's profile picture

There are several sources of ambient noise in my house so the dishwasher is of no concern. I run a 12" Windmaker fan on low in my kitchen/dining room/living room 24/7, aimed toward the office room ... where two desktop computers run 24/7, one with the side cover off and a small fan on the floor blowing toward it to keep the four hard drives (three internal, one external) from overheating. It's eerily-quiet if all of that is turned off.


Post# 796737 , Reply# 45   11/30/2014 at 21:22 (1,905 days old) by jerrod6 (Philadelphia(center city), Pennsylvania)        

I kinda agree with what you are saying tom except that I think the reason the smaller pumps are in DW is because they use less energy.  The  way the manufacturers see it is that the less electric their appliance uses the more money they get from the government in rebates.  Never mind that these small pumps take forever to clean anything while using 104F water.  I would much rather have a larger motor that uses a higher temp of water and that can get a load of very dirty dishes clean in 1 1/2 hours than many of the current energy star models that use 104F temperatures and take over 3 hours to get the job done.

 

Never mind that these DW are using 104F water but telling you that you must supply 120F water to it.  So you are using energy to heat the water outside of the machine and saving nothing in the end.


Post# 796754 , Reply# 46   11/30/2014 at 23:52 (1,905 days old) by A440 ()        

It is good to hear that there are Dishwashers available that can wash and sanitize dishes with great results today.  

With all the talk about quiet dishwashers I can't understand why this is an issue for an vintage appliance collector.

I run my KDS-18 or KDS-17A when I want to hear them run.  Of course they are always filled to the max.  I however look forward to hearing them run.  I did insulate them both with padding and such around the bottom so I could hear the amazing wash action through the door.  I love hearing it.  Sounds changing with each type of load. Detergent cups snapping open.  Wash water becoming thicker with detergent. Snapping of the drain solenoid.  Then of course hearing the Hygienic Drying from the heater during the dry portion.  

Now If I had to hear this for 2 or more hours that might be a different story.  40 minutes or less of washing is fine for me.  And I mostly use the Sanitary cycle.  And when I use both dishwashers at the same time....what a treat!  

Music to my ears!

 


Post# 809508 , Reply# 47   2/15/2015 at 21:35 (1,828 days old) by GELaundry4ever (Killeen tx USA)        
cheese enchilada pan test

These new Whirlpool dishwashers will never ever, ever, ever pass a cheese enchilada pan test unless you use Cascade complete citrus breeze dishwasher detergent in conjunction with Cascade crystal clear rinse aid! Shame on Whirlpool! Who do they think they are?

Post# 809707 , Reply# 48   2/16/2015 at 20:55 (1,827 days old) by aladude ()        

Yeah, yeah, shame on whirlpool, a pox on GE, bring back the filter flo, we got it, man.

Post# 809727 , Reply# 49   2/16/2015 at 23:54 (1,827 days old) by washingpowder (NYC)        

I'm very unsure what to think about it all, to be honest.
Back in Europe, my Mom uses a Bosch, a middle-of-line model that's approximately 10 years old. It uses approx 11L(3gal.) and 1.05kW per cycle. No matter the detergent(Her being a fan of Finish, me being a fan of eco, non-phosphated) or the cycle, even on the 30 min 113F, everything comes out sparkling clean. Mind you though, the dishwasher heats the water from cold, which I believe activates all enzymes correctly. Rinsing twice in cold saves energy; I believe it's the 220V that allows to maximize the potency of the heater, rather than running it for a couple of hours. Also, I believe the filters are cleaned once a year, when son comes over for Christmas.
Aunt on the other hand, with her Whirlpool that guzzles 25L(6.6gal.) and over 2kW per cycle, finds herself heavily pre-rinsing each article, as a) filters and spray arms clog b) the machine is incapable of removing even easy particles such as rice c) only Cascade equivalent works, as anything else wouldn't remove tea and coffee stains. Noticeably, her plastics, once translucent, come in a variety of colors. One would think it's the temperature issue, but water is heated piping hot each wash, and scalding to the touch.
I personally used a Miele G7856, which was absolutely the most fantastic piece of machinery in my opinion. Quite powerful, would flip over any lighter piece (say, a glass)in the bottom rack on heavier cycles. Completely and entirely customizable, say wash time, temperature and temp hold for each cycle, each wash and each rinse, water level, number of rinses, number of pre-washes, you name it. Normal cycle, 25 minutes, provided sparkling results no matter how clumsy with cooking one's partner might be. Shortest, 6min cycle was perfect for everyday, non-burned/stuck-on soils. Variable pump speed allowed the gentlest wash for china and crystals. However, on the heavy cycle would only use 0.6kW(with both hot and cold water connected) or 1.5kW(cold fill only). Mind you, said cycle would, by default, heat main wash to 70C(160F). Short cycle respectively, 0.3kW and 0.7kW. Only detergent used was simple potassium hydroxide, cheap and effective. Unfortunately, the machine was left at someone's apartment, who seems rather reluctant to ship it here, as had been promised. On the other hand, where would one find an apartment in NYC with an adequate power supply? (3N AC 400V, 3x16A). It seems possible to connect it to a 220V supply, but that could still be an issue, and probably decrease time and energy efficiency.
All this, however, doesn't seem to apply to the US market. My first dishwasher, GE Potscrubber, was the most ironic appliance I have ever seen. Couldn't wash anything unless pre-soaked, no matter the cycle/detergent, and kept leaving bits and pieces of semi-ground food. It might be an issue with lack of filters and phosphates; however at 10.5gal. and God only knows how much electricity, one would expect a better performer. Electrolux ICON, in a fancy Wall St. apartment, was rather less fancy than the design. Absolutely nothing, not even glasses, would get cleaned in the top rack. Moreover, dishes would be left with sticky, grainy residue covering half of them, with visible spray patterns. And now, with a portable Maytag Jetclean, all the wares are finally clean. A little finicky about the detergent and stuck-on foods, but majority of the time everything emerges clean. However, I'm pretty sure the efficiency is way, way below European models.
Could anyone explain why is it so hard to make a working piece of equipment since it does seem possible? I'm positive the trend of installing a 220V line to the dishwasher would be accepted - after all, plenty of Bosch washers, electric ovens and ranges, water heaters and other devices are happily making ConEd, or whatever the devil's name is happy, and customers accepted the need of power for certain abilities and privileges. Why don't we leave the 110 dishwashing equipment to the less-fortunate Children of Manhattan, and have at least a couple of 220V models available. Assuming it's the power supply causing all drama; if not, then I'm puzzled.


Post# 809732 , Reply# 50   2/17/2015 at 01:38 (1,827 days old) by norgeway (mocksville n c )        
As long as

I can pay the electric bill and the water bill...I will use vintage!These silly things made today are good examples of just plain governmental meddling,If you wash dishes by hand, you waste much more water than the most inefficient dishwasher ever made!!!As my Dad used to say, Strain at a gnat and swallow a camel!

Post# 809733 , Reply# 51   2/17/2015 at 01:54 (1,827 days old) by washer111 ()        

The older machines, while using more water often didn't heat the water as much, if at all. So the energy used would be your water heater, and that would come out at about the same in all seriousness. 

 

I don't have an issue using a machine connected to hot water, especially if its heated more efficiently than the electric heater in the d/w (i.e. Gas, heatpump, solar, geothermal etc). Cold rinses only make the dishes cold again, necessitating a full heatup from cold, whereas a hot connection would allow the machine to stay moderately warm, saving around 50% of the heating. 

 

It seems most dishwashers dispense detergent into the cold water, but until you get into the "lukewarm" zone, the enzymes are doing next to nothing (ever notice how powdered dishwasher detergent doesn't dissolve readily if you use it for soaking intensely-dirty stuffs?). 

That said, starting cold and quickly ramping up to very hot is a sure way to get dishes perfectly clean every time!


Post# 809784 , Reply# 52   2/17/2015 at 09:19 (1,827 days old) by logixx (Germany)        

logixx's profile picture
I tried connecting my Bosch to the hot line (140F from the first drop if I purged) but didn't see any benefit, unfortunately. It fills with steaming water, starts to circulate... and the water is cold. Since the machine heats during the prewash anyway, the main wash starts with slightly warm water and the lukewarm phase lasts five minutes at most, as the heater takes cold water to 120F in ten minutes. The rinses use preheated water.

@ washer112 - how long does your DD take to heat one fill? I suppose it heats very quickly.


Post# 809959 , Reply# 53   2/18/2015 at 14:56 (1,825 days old) by washer111 ()        

Its generally about 2C each minute.

Coming from a 50 tap (which I purge), will raise the temperature of the tub about 6C during the fill/circulation phase. Since there is no pre-wash, the tub doesn't get an initial tempering (which I assume is why American machines use 1-2 prewashes).
It is mostly the rinses where the savings are found, having the hot water preserves the tub temperature to about 45-50, which means the heater only runs 10 minutes in the final rinse*, for a 60 rinse.

*On the Heavy/Heavy Eco cycles, the machine's heating will time out if the water isn't hot enough. There is no warning in the manual of this. And this is with a cold supply that gets into lukewarm during summer! The typical temperature it stops at in this case is about 55


Post# 1057774 , Reply# 54   1/16/2020 at 09:46 by GELaundry4ever (Killeen tx USA)        
power clean cheese enchilada test

Did I tell you about the time I did a cheese enchilada pan test in a power clean? I went to Texas School for the Blind when I did this. I put it in the front of the rack. they had a power clean dishwasher. I stayed in dorm 573 during the 2008-2009 school year. I put it straight into the dishwasher - no prescrubbing whatsoever. one of the residential instructors couldn't believe I did that. When I got done with my dinner, I put my dishes in, put some cascade in and fired it up on pots/pans. this was the electronic model. When it was done, nothing remained. Nothing! I'd like to see the new Maytags that are coming out pass this test! let alone stuck on ribs and other stuff!

Post# 1057943 , Reply# 55   1/17/2020 at 17:14 by murando531 (Huntsville, AL)        

murando531's profile picture
This thread is pretty old but I suppose it being my own, it gives me a chance to reflect on how my opinions have evolved in 6 years, and I gotta say, I used to be pretty ignorant. I hadnt yet given this platform of dishwashers a chance yet and completely dismissed it. Ive now owned three; two premium models and one MOL model, and theyve all been fantastic performers. The pumps in those pictures in the original post are also not accurate at all because the repair parts site I linked them from had the wrong image thumbnails for the motor part numbers. All three GlobalWash machines have much beefier unidirectional wash pumps.

And yes, Id say that if Whirlpools new platform on the Maytag/KitchenAid dishwashers can handle a pizza, cake, and three pb&js, Id bet itll do a perfect job with a heavily soiled cheese enchilada pan.





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