Thread Number: 54547
Keymatic help
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Post# 769445   7/9/2014 at 15:52 (3,572 days old) by slimstar ()        

Hello folks,
For a long time I have been voyeur of this site and all of you're amazing collections!
Never really having a proper classic machine of my own.
But that changed about a week ago and this is where I could really use your collective wisdom and guidance.
I am now the proud keeper of a hoover keymatic 3224.
I have been after one of these beauties since I was about 6. I first spotted one in a 2nd hand store and begged my mum to buy it, but it had already been sold to the science museum!
So long story short I've been searching for nearly 30 years and now I've found one.
The thing is she's a bit worse for wear! Her key plate is missing and so is her impellor.
I've tried to source an old hoovermatic impellor but it's too big.
Her door boot is in good nick though so that's one good thing.
My intention is to properly restore and get her washing again. Any advice, tips diagrams etc is desperately needed and much appreciated .
Many thanks
Alex


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Post# 769451 , Reply# 1   7/9/2014 at 16:31 (3,572 days old) by triumphdolomite (Staffs(UK))        
3224

Congratulations on your new purchase, you'll no doubt have hours of fun getting her up and running again. Having only recently got my 3224 I'm on the look out for a door boot, as I suspect several people are. There have been some keyplates on ebay, but I think that there are different ones depending on model and machine age. Someone else may be able to clarify this for you. Finding a pulsator may be a little harder...but odd things do appear out of the blue. Have you managed to check out the condition of the electrics yet?
Keep us informed how you get on
Ian


Post# 769701 , Reply# 2   7/10/2014 at 09:28 (3,571 days old) by gizmo (Victoria, Australia)        
well I have an impeller.....

I'm on the wrong side of the planet for you but I have a brand new Keymatic impeller.

 

It doesn't look new as it has sat under our old house for some years, but it has never been fitted to a machine. I grabbed it when I found a spare parts shop with a couple of Keymatic bits left, about 15 years ago. It might have some slight surface rust to clean up on the shaft, I haven't looked at it for a while.

 

I also MIGHT have a spare keyplate. I'll have a look in the next while. A relative now lives in our old house and I can get access there, but maybe not immediately.  I'll chase it up.

 

If the pulsator is missing, are the other components there? At the pulley end of the pulsator shaft there is a "pulley" (drive block? not sure what it's called), a clutch spring, plastic cap and linkage to the solenoid that de-activates the pulsator. (from memory, when the solenoid pulls in it RELEASES the pulsator, ie: stops drive to the pulsator.) If any of these are missing, the pulsator drive won't work.

 

Personally I don't think that matters - I have used a Keymatic as my main machine some years ago, and the pulsator is a waste of time. It does almost nothing and the pulsator clutch is quite unreliable, so at least here in Australia the pulsator drive was often disconnected by servicemen.  This then led to the odd situation that the cottons wash had a lesser wash than the delicate cycle, so the serviceman would advice doing all washes on delicate. (On cottons, the wash was 4 minutes with pulsator, on delicates it was 8 minutes with no pulsator.) To get your machine back in action you could refit just the pulsator and fit the retaining pulley/drive block at the other end. Don't worry about fitting the clutch etc if you don't have them. All you need the pulsator for is to block water from running down the hollow drum shaft.

 

Anyhow, if I can find the bits and you cover the cost of postage, they are yours.


Post# 769758 , Reply# 3   7/10/2014 at 14:06 (3,571 days old) by slimstar ()        
OMG!!

Ian and gizmo thanks for getting back to me.
I haven't as yet had a chance to get the back off. It's been a mental week at work and there just hasn't been time. So I have no idea what lies beneath. I've had a look inside the drum and it looks like the impellor disk has broken off. ( I've tried to take a photo but it's not very clear) there seems to be bits of Bakelite stuck around a shaft so I'm assuming everything else is intact????

Gizmo, you have made a newbie a very happy boy! I'll happily cover postage and gladly give you something for your trouble too.
I'm not quite sure how send messages via the forum but feel free to email me at amahony@aol.com

I am so excited about the chance of getting this little beauty up and washing again!
This is going to be a real labour of love, done slowly and methodically.

Thanks again to both of you. Hopefully there'll be some restoration pics to follow soon

Alex


Post# 770235 , Reply# 4   7/12/2014 at 13:36 (3,569 days old) by matchboxpaul (U.K)        

Hi Alex.
Conrats on joining the Slant-front Keymatic Club.

I have yet to join this esteemed group myself, though am a member of the FKC :-) See picture below.

Had a few encounters with the 3224 and 3226 when I was a youngster and certainly a design classic. The more that are saved the better.
Cannot remember if there are any older threads with circuit diagrams on the forum or not. Have a search through the archives (I will do too) and if nothing can be found, I will photograph and post the servicing literature for you.
Good that the door seal seems sound - be gentle with it, as these are much much rarer than any hens teeth you may have found on any hens.

will go searching and report back with any old threads that might be interesting.
welcome to the forum!

Paul




Post# 770236 , Reply# 5   7/12/2014 at 13:38 (3,569 days old) by matchboxpaul (U.K)        

The 3224 Keymatic - 1961 to 1964 ....

Post# 770237 , Reply# 6   7/12/2014 at 13:41 (3,569 days old) by matchboxpaul (U.K)        

Might be some interesting bits and bobs here, though the thread was set up to reference the Model 3226 Keymatic:



CLICK HERE TO GO TO matchboxpaul's LINK


Post# 770242 , Reply# 7   7/12/2014 at 14:25 (3,569 days old) by slimstar ()        
FKC lol ; )

Hey Paul,
Hope all is well?
Thanks for the advice about the boot. I'll be careful with it. And thanks for the link too.
Your flat keymatic looks way ahead of its time, I just love the way it's styled. I remember as a kid having an old hardback book of how things work and it had an illustration of that machine and a servis twin tub too.
Why did hoover step away from the tilted drum? And why did they not continue with the key plate design? To me it seems a shame and a bit of a backward step ???
Also when new, did the keymatics come with a full selection of plates or could you buy more and potentially upgrade your machine?
I've got so many questions and I'm soooo excited about having one that I'm worried I'm going to come across like a teenage girl at a justin bieber concert. So I'm going to pace myself and awate further replies.
Many thanks


Post# 770245 , Reply# 8   7/12/2014 at 14:29 (3,569 days old) by triumphdolomite (Staffs(UK))        
Door Seals

I'll second what Paul says about door seals, mine still has its original turquoise one,in places it's the texture of a biscuit and has a large hole in the bottom :-( I did wonder about the feasibility of getting one made but I fear that the cost may be prohibitive. Do we know if anyone has tried this in the past?

Ian


Post# 770500 , Reply# 9   7/13/2014 at 08:05 (3,568 days old) by slimstar ()        
Door seals and replacement parts

Hey Ian,
I've been thinking about what you said about getting a boot made but it being too expensive just for one. I've been looking into plastic injection moulding companies to see about getting a keyplate copied and that too seems expensive. But what if all the folks who need parts ( sump hoses, key plates door boots) got quotes and clubbed together to get what we need made? It still might be a bit pricey but we'd all get parts which would save us all the headache of an eBay war for a few hens teeth.
Just a thought ?


Post# 770502 , Reply# 10   7/13/2014 at 08:14 (3,568 days old) by gizmo (Victoria, Australia)        
Keyplate upgrades

I'm pretty sure an old ad for Keymatics I have here somewhere mentions the possibility of upgrades  by releasing new keyplates as a feature of the system. However I know of only one such upgrade that ever happened - here in Australia, Hoover released a cold wash keyplate. I had one cold wash keyplate, but I don't remember if it had just one cold wash option, or whether the whole keyplate was various cold washes. I think it was just one cold wash option.

 

The earliest machines (3224?) had the green outer casing and a timeline progress indicator, and came with a solid black  bakelite keyplate for cold only fills and a solid red bakelite keyplate for hot or warm water fills.

 

The second series (3226?) had the white outer casing, blue metallic dashboard with circular progress indicator. They had plastic keyplates with black outer edges and a white centre square, hot / warm fill keyplate had red text on the white centre, cold fill keyplate had black text on the white centre.

 

the cold wash keyplate I had was black plastic plate with a pressed aluminium centre, the markings were painted on - from memory, black text on a green background.

 

I had several spare keyplates including one cold wash plate. I don't think I have disposed of them, but I can't find them.

 

I will go up to our old house in the next few days and have a thorough search under the house. I know there are some Keymatic parts there, but don't recall seeing keyplates recently. I know I HAVE seen the spare pulsator there.


Post# 770506 , Reply# 11   7/13/2014 at 08:19 (3,568 days old) by gizmo (Victoria, Australia)        
sump hoses

Someone here has cobbled together one of those weird sump hoses out of other bits.

 

Today when scouring in my garage for Keymatic bits I found a spare hose for a UK Hotpoint front loader, the one with the "catch pot" at the bottom. I reckon that might form the basis of an improvised Keymatic sump hose. Only the bit that connects to the drum needs to be flexible, the rest could be made up from PVC pipe. I'm lucky, I still have a good sump hose, but it won't last forever.


Post# 770772 , Reply# 12   7/14/2014 at 09:15 (3,567 days old) by gizmo (Victoria, Australia)        
found the pulsator

Here are a couple of pics of the Keymatic pulsator, next to a Hoovermatic pulsator for comparison.

 

Note the Keymatic pulsator, on the right, has a longer, thinner shaft and smaller diameter.

 

Unfortunately, I can't find any keyplates. I have looked thoroughly and I just don't seem to have them any longer. I have one keyplate in the machine I have kept, but the spare plates I thought I had have evaporated.

 

Also the pulsator I found is NOT brand new. I must have swapped the new one on to a machine. It is however in excellent condition. No sign of wear at the bearing locations on the shaft. It had a few specks of surface rust on the shaft but I have cleaned them up now.


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Post# 772307 , Reply# 13   7/21/2014 at 12:43 (3,560 days old) by slimstar ()        
Gizmo

Hey, thanks again for getting back to me and offering up so much so generously.
I've dropped you an email because I didn't want to take up too much space with my many questions but just wanted to say thanks again for taking an interest in this thread

Alex


Post# 778434 , Reply# 14   8/21/2014 at 07:24 (3,529 days old) by slimstar ()        
Just had a quick look inside

Hello again folks,
So I've had a sneaky peek under her skirts and this is what I've found...


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Post# 778435 , Reply# 15   8/21/2014 at 07:30 (3,529 days old) by slimstar ()        
Where do I begin???

It looks like the pump has been replaced at some point. The wiring looks ok but to be honest I haven't a clue where begin. Much of the internal rubber hoses seems to be in good condition. However the belts look pretty worn and is there something missing from the back of the drive pulley?


Post# 778439 , Reply# 16   8/21/2014 at 08:25 (3,529 days old) by gizmo (Victoria, Australia)        

Yes, there is a lot missing there. the pulsator shaft should protrude through that hole in the centre of the shaft.
The entire pulsator clutch assembly is missing. So is the pulsator solenoid. So unless you can scrounge up the missing parts, you won't get the pulsator working.

I haven't yet posted the pulsator to you. I've been too busy with other stuff. I hope to in the next few days.

I have spare belts and I think I have one only part of the pulsator clutch assembly - on the pulley in your photo you can see two pins sticking out. They drive the first stage of the clutch. The part I have is a flat plate with two holes drilled to mate over those two pins, and a hub in the centre which is the driving part of the clutch. There is a lot more of the clutch that you need and I don't have those parts.

Personally I would just fit the pulsator I am sending you, to block the centre shaft. Don't bother trying to get the pulsator working, they don't do anything useful in the Keymatic, and it could take years to find the parts.

I will enclose the belts when I send the pulsator. And the clutch part if I can find it. I will look for other clutch parts but don't hold your breath.

You will need to dodgy up some way to retain the pulsator in position.

Yes, your pump is a modern substitute.

Another thing - from the photo your drum assembly is hanging crooked (could just be the angle of the photo.) The drum is suspended on a fine steel cable and a couple of large coil springs. The cable can rust through and break. If it has broken, a bike shop could help you make up a new one with derailleur cable.

It isn't really possible to test the machine without a keyplate. I DON'T have one spare, does anyone else have a spare keyplate?

Chris.


Post# 778444 , Reply# 17   8/21/2014 at 09:02 (3,529 days old) by brib68 (Central Connecticut)        
Tilted tubs

brib68's profile picture
As to the comment questioning why Hoover switched away from the tilted drum...I certainly can't say, but US manufacturers did the same. Slant-fronted Westinghouse machines (for instance) over here were on the market for many years, but eventually gave way to the flat-front design that became pretty much universally accepted. It probably had to do with taking up less floor space in the home and/or making them fit the same footprint as a top-loader so that buyers could have their choice without having to worry about measurements. With the advent of the stackables and under-counter models, the slant-front and tilted tub would stick out into the room a bit.

All that being said, I DO get a smile that tilted drums have returned in modern front loaders (like my LG Tromm) and are a selling point, even though the tilt is no where near the angle of the old slant fronts.


Post# 778460 , Reply# 18   8/21/2014 at 13:23 (3,529 days old) by hotpoint95622 (Powys)        
Hoover Keymatic

hotpoint95622's profile picture
Hi Alex

Now that’s what I call a classic machine, bit of a challenge the condition she is in but that’s how I love to find them.

Take your time and savour the work ahead of you, it’s surprising how much can be done over a few months of odd jobbing.

Solutions to problems suddenly come and it's done and onto the next, good luck and keep us updated with your progress.

Lee
PS Include as many photos as you can, it’s great for those of us who don’t get to see a classic like this.


Post# 778471 , Reply# 19   8/21/2014 at 14:45 (3,529 days old) by chestermikeuk (Rainhill *Home of the RailwayTrials* Merseyside,UK)        
Hovver Keymatic 3224 - The First.

chestermikeuk's profile picture
Hi Alex, glad another one is saved but you do have a bit of a challenge on your hands - the pump original was massive on this keymatic with a large induction motor to cope with the large volume of water, we have swapped 2 out now with modern ones and they work just as well....As Chris says I think your front suspension wire has snapped and dropped the drum, you can see the lower right hand gear pulley drive has smashed into the lower terminal block and cracked the corner off..This happened to mine and I lost the complete top cover!!

Also the LHS main top spring is looking stretched and out of align. yup the whole of the pulsator clutch drive and solenoid is missing, I have a few keyplates but non of this model and they will be unique to the individual programmer in this machine, this model alone had 6 different timers and updated wiring looms, non interchangeable - probably unless someone ever deceides to scrap a model or we find a breaker then not sure what can be achieved, please dont get too disheatened we dont know what is still out there!!


CLICK HERE TO GO TO chestermikeuk's LINK


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Post# 778476 , Reply# 20   8/21/2014 at 14:51 (3,529 days old) by chestermikeuk (Rainhill *Home of the RailwayTrials* Merseyside,UK)        
Hoover Keymatic 3224 - 1961

chestermikeuk's profile picture
Heres a pic showing the thin support wire and where it goes, they can be made as Chris mentioned from cycle gear link wires...simple but important.

You can see here where the wire has snapped either side of the large main tub suspension spring and is stretching the hell out of the very fragile door boot...


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Post# 778480 , Reply# 21   8/21/2014 at 15:00 (3,529 days old) by chestermikeuk (Rainhill *Home of the RailwayTrials* Merseyside,UK)        
Hoover Keymatic 3224 - 1961

chestermikeuk's profile picture
Here you can see a replacement suspension wire where it should be, around the pulley wheel and under the drum front lower lip to the other side..

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Post# 778483 , Reply# 22   8/21/2014 at 15:18 (3,529 days old) by slimstar ()        
Spares or repair

Hey mike, lee and Chris, thanks for getting back to me.
It looks like this is going to be a long haul project I guess.
I'm trying not to be too disheartened by the state it's in and the fact I'll probably never get her up and running but it does smart a little. I've been after one of these beauties since I was a boy and can't help but feel a bit disappointed and worried that she's beyond repair! Perhaps I should just sell her on for spares, Especially since without a keyplate it's dead anyway?
Also I can't fathom why they would have removed the impellor/clutch either?? Grrrr

Has anyone else felt this level of frustration and emotion with a project like this, or is it just me??
I think I should step away from the keymatic edge and go make a cuppa

Once again thanks for all your advice on this
Alex


Post# 778488 , Reply# 23   8/21/2014 at 15:31 (3,529 days old) by slimstar ()        
Suspension is killing me

Hey mike,
In you're opinion how complex a job is it to restore a keymatic??
I mean if I wanted to go so far as to open her up, strip her down and try my best to completely restore her. And by that I mean replace all faulty hoses wires etc and return originals where possible and even to go so far as to get her re sprayed. Is that something that could be done single handed or would you suggest getting help in?
I have so many questions, but I suppose to cut a long story short, I would love to see this old girl wash again, do you think that would be possible?

Many thanks
Alex


Post# 778490 , Reply# 24   8/21/2014 at 15:54 (3,529 days old) by chestermikeuk (Rainhill *Home of the RailwayTrials* Merseyside,UK)        
Hoover Keymatic 3224 - 1961

chestermikeuk's profile picture
Hi Alex, take a deep breath and hold onto it, keep polishing the beauty, realistically its gonna take a few men, hours and input to get it working...as well as spare parts, I did wonder if Hoover actually removed the pulsator clutch and solenoid when they did disable them when modified, but that doesnt explain the missing pulsator itself.

They are a labour of love, very complicated and need a lot of nurtureing, please dont do anything rash, have you repaired any washers or fully restored any at all?


Post# 778502 , Reply# 25   8/21/2014 at 17:59 (3,529 days old) by slimstar ()        
And relax

Hey mike,
I've had my cuppa and relaxed a bit now.
Thanks for your words of wisdom. I am going to hold on and see what happens.

My only other vintage washer is a hoovermatic 3334, I've re wired it, replaced the tyre on the pump and plugged a few leaks on the spinner, but this project has been on hold pending parts too! It's got a dud OCV. When I empty the wash tub it fills the spinner! I've managed to find a gasket and balls for the valve but am having trouble removing it because the screw heads have all rusted through.

The twintub looks like the simpler project to embark on first, so perhaps that's what I'll do until the necessary spares turn up. On that note how do I find out what sort of timer I have in order to source the right plate ?
And also if you and any other members fancy a trip to london for a keymatic intervention then please let me know ; )

Once again thanks for Your input
Alex


Post# 778655 , Reply# 26   8/22/2014 at 09:33 (3,528 days old) by gizmo (Victoria, Australia)        

Well I have found a pulsator solenoid too...

Crises just keep happening here but I will get to the post office eventually.

Mike:
As far as I know, the keyplates are the same on all slant fronts, aren't they? They are made of different materials and different colours, but the sizes and notches are all the same.
I know there are hot fill, cold fill and cold wash keyplates, but you can take a keyplate from any 3224 or 3226 and bung it in another 3224 or 3226 and it will do enough to test the machine. Or is that just the Australian ones?


The concept of the keyplate is really pretty simple. Each face of a keyplate (and there are 8 faces - 4 sides x upside down or right way up) and each face has a different series of notches and bumps. Each notch corresponds to one particular increment of the timer, whether it is a notch or a bump decides if that timer increment is completed or skipped. So for example the wash part of the timer has an increment for a 4 minute wash, and another increment for another 4 minute wash. Programs that use an 8 minute wash will stop the timer at the first wash increment and it will wash for 4 minutes. then the timer will advance to the second 4 min wash increment. A program with a 4 minute wash will skip over the first 4 minute wash increment and go straight to the second. Another notch on the keyplate will determine if the final 4 minute wash increment has pulsator action or not. (Pulsator action washes are only 4 minutes long.)

This system means there are an incredible maze of wires between the timer and the keyplate reader - 2 wires for every notch in the reader! Plus another pair for the "extra push" it takes to start a cycle. If you remove the keyplate during a cycle, all segments are de-selected so it skips straight to the end.

I always liked that it actually does EVERY action as it passes that increment, whether that increment is selected or not only alters if it stays on an increment or only does it for a second. So if you start a cycle and then remove the keyplate, you get squirt (hot fill) -click (timer increments) squirt (cold fill) click-click- click (heater different temperatures) - click ( 1 second tumble) - click (another tumble) - click ( 1 second pump) - and so on, clickety clacking with little bursts of activity, pausing only to pump out completely if there is water in the drum before its quick tumble and jump to spin for a second, then shut down.
Well that's me, yes I am barking mad.

Chris.


Post# 778757 , Reply# 27   8/22/2014 at 17:32 (3,528 days old) by cornutt (Huntsville, AL USA)        

Chris, we have got to see a video of that! World's fastest cycle!

Post# 778885 , Reply# 28   8/23/2014 at 10:04 (3,527 days old) by gizmo (Victoria, Australia)        

I'm afraid I no longer own a working Keymatic.

I have one restoration project which needs a motor...


Post# 778901 , Reply# 29   8/23/2014 at 13:17 (3,527 days old) by slimstar ()        

Hey Chris ,
Just to say I hope all is well? And that you are a complete star!!
It's also great to know that it's possible to find a keyplate that will work.
I'll drop you a proper email soon.
But honestly mr thank you !


Post# 779084 , Reply# 30   8/24/2014 at 15:22 (3,526 days old) by triumphdolomite (Staffs(UK))        

Alex
I'll second what Mike says, take it easy do a bit at a time and don't get too disheartened when (if?) things go a little awry. I have to say that when it goes right its great. Managed to get mine to actually do things a couple of weeks ago, many thanks here to Mathew and Mike, the timer now cycles through, but will only kick the pump into action, and on very odd occasions the motor briefly, as Chris describes above. I'm just in the process of cleaning contacts and repairing connections in the hope that it will stop the timer cycling constantly and stop when it gets back to step 0, which it won't do at the moment.
Keep chipping away at jobs on yours.
Ian


Post# 779087 , Reply# 31   8/24/2014 at 15:28 (3,526 days old) by triumphdolomite (Staffs(UK))        
A Few Timer Pics



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Post# 779528 , Reply# 32   8/26/2014 at 14:56 (3,524 days old) by slimstar ()        

Hey Ian,
Thanks for the reply.
It looks like I've quite a challenge on my hands, and it may take a while for parts to surface I guess.

I've a question or two for you

Is your timer from the model with the rotary indicator?
And do you think it likely that a keyplate will ever surface?

Cheers

Alex




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