Thread Number: 57549  /  Tag: Modern Automatic Washers
Speed Queen to offer heater option......on 'International export' F/L models
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Post# 799423   12/16/2014 at 15:30 (3,390 days old) by mayfan69 (Brisbane Queensland Australia)        

mayfan69's profile picture

I asked Speed Queen if they were going to offer their TOL fully electronic top and front load washers and dryers in 220/240V export voltage and also if the F/L washer would come with a heater: this was their response via Facebook this morning:

 

'Yes, Speed Queen offers products in multiple voltage configurations for many global markets. The 2015 front load washer will be available with a heating option in select, international configurations'

 

They didn't mention if the US domestic model would be offered with this option as i didn't ask.

 

Cheers

Leon





Post# 799433 , Reply# 1   12/16/2014 at 16:51 (3,389 days old) by appnut (TX)        

appnut's profile picture

Disappointing no heater in US. 


Post# 799441 , Reply# 2   12/16/2014 at 17:51 (3,389 days old) by Frigilux (The Minnesota Prairie)        

frigilux's profile picture
Honest to God, I'd buy a front-loading Speed Queen in a heartbeat if it had more cycle flexibility and a water heater. There's a dealership within a stone's throw of my house, so repair work would not be an issue.

I agree, Bob; it's disappointing.


Post# 799442 , Reply# 3   12/16/2014 at 17:59 (3,389 days old) by mrb627 (Buford, GA)        
Cycle Flexability

mrb627's profile picture
has been answered by the new models. The heater has not been confirmed or denied at this point.

Malcolm


Post# 799447 , Reply# 4   12/16/2014 at 18:34 (3,389 days old) by whirlcool (Just North Of Houston, Texas)        
There is always hope..

if something sells well in some markets sometimes the popular options will bleed over into other markets.

Post# 799461 , Reply# 5   12/16/2014 at 19:18 (3,389 days old) by logixx (Germany)        

logixx's profile picture

"The 2015 front load washer will be available with a heating option in select, international configurations"

 

Will these washers in question goint to be sold as "commercial" or "residential" units? I am wondering because we essentially have the same Speed Queen washers over here that are sold in the US. However, because our models are labeled "commercial", they can get away with using very powerful heaters (several thousand watts). I could well imagine that, as long as a model in the US is labeled "residential", it won't get a heater thanks to Energy Star, while the sister machine, labeled "commercial", will receive a heating element.


Post# 799469 , Reply# 6   12/16/2014 at 19:41 (3,389 days old) by jetcone (Schenectady-Home of Calrods,Monitor Tops,Toroid Transformers)        
they did offer heating a few years back

jetcone's profile picture

I have one and love it. What a spot remover that is !!

 

It was not an option on the imperial set I bought from John

 


Post# 799471 , Reply# 7   12/16/2014 at 19:44 (3,389 days old) by super32 (Blackstone Massachusetts)        
a few years back

super32's profile picture
Jetcone........is yours a SQ? Or the briefly offered Amana? Didnt the Amana have the heat option before it was yanked?

Post# 799480 , Reply# 8   12/16/2014 at 19:53 (3,389 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md)        
SQ FL Washers With Heaters

combo52's profile picture
My friend Bob in Cleveland has two SQ FL Washers with heaters he wants to sell, one small door model and one large door machine.

Jon C. you got Both your SQ FL heater equipped machines from us.


Post# 799495 , Reply# 9   12/16/2014 at 21:15 (3,389 days old) by Chetlaham (United States)        
Heater

chetlaham's profile picture
I would take one in a heartbeat! :D

I think the issue is that a US front loader with a heater would take to long. The most an American machine can pull is 1,800 watts, where a Euro model often has at least 2,300 watts available.

But that's not going to stop me from an international model ;)


Post# 799496 , Reply# 10   12/16/2014 at 21:19 (3,389 days old) by Chetlaham (United States)        

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A lot of these Euro models have built in heaters, so I hope some of the Queens do ;) :D


www.eastwestintl.com/showprod.asp...


Post# 799500 , Reply# 11   12/16/2014 at 21:55 (3,389 days old) by gansky1 (Omaha, The Home of the TV Dinner!)        

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My '04 Speed Queen washer has a heater, I bought it from Bob in Cleveland (as John mentioned above) and it's a great washer.  The Spot-B-Gone boosted hot cycle is running right now!

 

As far as flexibility, I really don't miss the many cycle options that I've had on other modern f/l washers.  The nine minute wash on Regular cycle is good for most loads and properly pre-treated problems come right out with a good HE detergent.


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Post# 799521 , Reply# 12   12/17/2014 at 01:54 (3,389 days old) by Newwave1 (Lincoln, United Kingdom)        

newwave1's profile picture
Surely in 2014 and in an age of Eco driven products a heater is essential for precise temperatures with no risk of choosing "too high" a temperature for example?!

Darren


Post# 799540 , Reply# 13   12/17/2014 at 07:57 (3,389 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md)        
American FL Washers With Heaters

combo52's profile picture
The SQ FL Washers with heaters are 900 watts and do very well at heating the water to around 150F. You do not need thousands of watts of heat when you are starting with hot water, usually from a gas water heater in the US.

Generally North American laundry equipment is much more energy efficient that European home laundry appliances. In the US we generally use economical Gas Heated hot water instead of electricity and we often use Gas Vented clothes dryers that are light years ahead of using a condenser electric dryer in terms of operating costs not to mention how much less carbon dioxide is put in to the atmosphere using a gas dryer.

John L.


Post# 799546 , Reply# 14   12/17/2014 at 09:15 (3,389 days old) by mrb627 (Buford, GA)        
Personally.

mrb627's profile picture
Even a Speed Queen FL machine without a heater is still superior to residential machines offered at big box stores.

Malcolm


Post# 799547 , Reply# 15   12/17/2014 at 09:25 (3,389 days old) by henene4 (Heidenheim a.d. Brenz (Germany))        
Simply no.

Nope. It isn't. There is no way US laundry is more efficent.
The most sold German washer configuration has 8kg (20 pounds roughly) capacity, is A+++ rated and highly water efficent (round about 70l for this load at 2 and a half hours). It uses about 0,8 kWh on a warm (104°F, 40°C) and about 1,2 kWh on a hot (140°F, 60°C) wash. On the "label cycles" (dumbed down temperatures, looooooong washtimes up to 4 hours and poor rinsing) such washers only use 50l and about 0,5/0,7 kWh.
Some washers go down to 45l of water for the same load, cycle times of 6 hours and energy usage of about 0,4/0,5 kWh (reachin only 35°C/90°F or less on a hot wash).
The most sold dryer is heat-pump by now, rated A++. It runs round about 2 hours and only uses 2 kWh.
Some more efficent dryers might take 2,5 or 3 hours, yet only use 1,5 to 1,3 kWh.
I doubt you beat less than 3,5 kWh for 20 pounds of laundry, washed hot and dried within 4-5 hours time.
Or a top efficency pair takeing 10h for 20 pounds, but only using 2 kWh or less.


Post# 799578 , Reply# 16   12/17/2014 at 15:02 (3,389 days old) by jerrod6 (Southeastern Pennsylvania)        

OH....but they did answer the question..I don't expect any heater to be available to the USA.  We don't live in an international market. International... is code word for foreign.


Post# 799580 , Reply# 17   12/17/2014 at 15:36 (3,389 days old) by mr_b ()        
Also from SQ's Facebook Page for the 2015 FL

The capacity will be 20% larger - taking it to 3.42 cu ft.

The temperature of the water is determined by your hot water heater. There's no mixing with the cold, unless you choose Warm then it's mixed with 50% Hot and 50% cold water.

There will be more cycle choices.


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Post# 799581 , Reply# 18   12/17/2014 at 15:44 (3,389 days old) by washer111 ()        

I think some people are missing the point of a heater in FL washers.

The whole point of having heaters in FL machines is to allow a cooler intake temperature, such that heat-sensitive stains are less likely to be set into the items being washed. As the temperature increases, you get the benefits of a cool, warm and eventually hot wash cycle all in the one. Given the huge difference in temperature between cool and hot, it *is* necessary to use a reasonably large heater to ensure that cycle times are not absurdly long, particularly on European machines where there is the choice of temperatures exceeding 140º for the wash.

Suggesting that US products are better is more blind patriotism, I think, than truth. Others have supplied times, temperatures and actual energy consumption, while I'll make some rebuttals which are related, but not based upon these facts:
~ In many instances, Europeans LONG AGO abandoned hugely wasteful storage water heater solutions, whatever the fuel (unless solar/geothermal), you're still heating (in some cases) vast quantities of water that isn't used. So now, they are using instant electric or gas systems. Either way, their on-demand nature is far more efficient than storing water waiting for someone to eventually have a shower, or wash a load of laundry. Given high EU energy prices, this seems like a sensible idea.
I've noticed in some areas, storage systems do remain popular, for whatever reason. This includes Norway, one of the most expensive countries to live in (electric storage systems). Why don't they use gas when the state produced product is right there? Well, it is far easier to supply electricity in the middle of a mountain range than it is gas. Its less costly, and far safer if there is an accident. Same reason we use gas bottles 'in the sticks' here in Australia, too. Its also a cultural thing, no-one in Norway I've seen cooks with gas (unless its a camping stove). Everyone uses some sort of electric range/stovetop setup.

~ Given that Europeans don't have storage water heaters, and their washers use small quantities of water to get the job done - why waste hot water trying to fill the machines when the water (while hot) will be so little in quantity that it barely raises the overall temperature above tepid? The same applies for dishwashers. Unless there is a clear savings advantage, running hot water taps until they are purged of cold water can be wasteful.
This waste can be eliminated by allowing the washer to completely heat the water itself. And again, in the end, the cost of this over time will be less than wastefully keeping water hot un-necessarily, unless you are processing quantities of laundry meant for a commercial laundry, and not a home situation.

People here on this site have reported that they have to use their SQ FL's on 'Hot' for a (true) warm wash, and they must first "purge" the washer of cold water up to several times to ensure they get a true hot wash. Given the average person doing the laundry probably doesn't care about "the details," they'd try running the warm or hot cycle, only to be disappointed when it didn't turn out as they expected. The Euro machines at least understand this, and will heat to what you set them to. They don't give you a cold wash when "warm" is selected, they give the user what *they* want, when they want it - Even to a specific temperature setpoint!
Meanwhile, U.S. machines are still only offering temperature selections in the vague terms of "Cold, Warm, Hot, Extra Hot" - which are highly disputable temperature ranges.


Post# 799585 , Reply# 19   12/17/2014 at 16:17 (3,389 days old) by liamy1 (-)        
American efficiency

As much as I love the way of life in the US, suggesting anything over there is more energy efficient is simply wrong. Europe is light years ahead on that score, in terms of appliances used, the way houses are heated and the cars we drive.

I love US top loading washers (I have 2 in the garage) however, the water they use to run a load is criminal.


Post# 799586 , Reply# 20   12/17/2014 at 16:19 (3,389 days old) by Chetlaham (United States)        
Euro machines

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I disagree. Euro machines fill with cold water, which requires a longer time or more wattage. Up in the north water is stone cold in the winter, so heating water from 40 degrees to 150 takes time. A 900 watt heater will work, but take time, a lot of time. Doubling or tripling the wattage cuts back on time. I know because I have experimented with 230 volt Euro models. It makes a difference.


Also, not all dryers are gas. An electric dryer is less efficient than a condenser. Even if you did have gas, consider that all vent dryers pull a large amount of air (cubic feet per minute) out of your home. So unless the outside air is equal to the inside air in temperature; your AC or heating system needs to work more to compensate when ever running a vent dryer. I fail to see the efficiency in that.


Post# 799637 , Reply# 21   12/18/2014 at 00:18 (3,388 days old) by washer111 ()        
Should I Add?

While the EU plans on banning high-powered vacuum's was seen as sheer stupidity by many on this forum, I don't see the U.S. making such regulations.

Off-topic? Yes, probably. But does it counter the argument that the U.S. makes the most efficient products? Most certainly.


Post# 799642 , Reply# 22   12/18/2014 at 00:49 (3,388 days old) by Chetlaham (United States)        
Vaccums

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Id say on topic, a point well worth brining up :)

My understanding is that vacuum motors convert most energy to heat rather than HP. I think this has something to do with advertising wattage since a higher wattage might come across as more power. Easy give away: when one runs a vacuum cleaner the air that comes out the back is very warm, even hot.


Personally, keeping the HP but developing a more efficient motor (like a high frequency inverter motor) is a better option than limiting size or suction power.


Post# 799647 , Reply# 23   12/18/2014 at 02:04 (3,388 days old) by kenmoreguy89 (Valenza Piemonte, Italy- Soon to be US immigrant.)        

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I was just thinking at how maniacs are getting in the US compared to here in europe.
Believe me, they're getting eco paranoid.
Regarding the last matter of the vacuums though, the US doesn't do that because as noted the "crazy" wattage thing has been a typical european thing....and it was really time to give it a cut....it was one of those "all smoke-no roast" selling strategy things....
Regarding euro front loaders, I would like to point out some facts that may miss...
In many countries of europe they always came with cold fill only, and no...it wasn't because of the stain setting theory (which I never experienced) some members likes to tell, almost like saying it's made on purpose because of this, it isn't.. but that's simply because some countries had not proper hook ups in laundry areas..and that simply wasn't possible.
Infact thats a peculiarity of British machines to be double fill, britsh kept their machines in the kitchen, in the kitchen you always have had hot water..simple..
In other countries such as France, Germany, Italy, Spain not ...and you do get cold fill only....but it's full of people here who buy devices and or manually fill them hot and as hot as possible to save electric costs, not a case that the toploaders may them be agitator or the asian pulsator such as the LG are considered and sold as the most efficient and eco-saving machines, in this country and I know also elsewhere ....they wish they had all machines came with double fill now that many house have the possibility to have the hook ups and hot water is available nearly everywhere in modern houses made past 70s and 80s...
Built-in heaters in machines became a necessity because of what said before, just like it was even with the semi automatic agitatior machines that came before automatics, twin tub and or wringer washers.
See most of the EU twin tub and wringer washer machines with agitator, pulsator whatever settings....

Storage water heaters;
Actually I think that the fact of the storage water heaters is much more complicated than that..
Let's say Europe generally has never had a huge use of the tanks, not because of efficiency but simply because the living spaces in many countries of europe are much smaller, that means few would have space to fit a large water heater, so they had to switch to an insta one....
Buildings and homes in europe in the past didn't have centralized hot water piping and it was difficult to do so because most houses are brick houses and that meant a very expensive work to do, so that meant having to place a small insta water heater whenever needed, so one in the bathrrom feeding the sink and bathrub/shower and a small one in the kitchen... it's common to see bathrooms in older condos and or houses with a water heater on the top of the bathtub in each bathroom....gas lines ran and still runs now outside of houses and buildings, and they were much cheaper to set up versus a centralized hot water piping.
Add to it that as typical of many countries of europe, perhaps the most of population (at leas here, including Spain, France etc) lives in condos and the indipendent houses are things for "wealthy" folks, this is even more in medium to large towns and cities...
Yes, there were some tank heaters of course, both electric and gas, but they were so small... about 30-40 liters the bigger... bigger units couldn't cope with the small/limited living space and they were too small anyway, so they couldn't and wouldn't give satisfactory amount of hot water needed especially for family with kids, 1-2 quick showers and you already ran out of Hot water, so best option was to use instant ones that were small and made best use of space, and this is since the old days (In Russia is also the same even for buildings made after the 70s and 80s), that configuaration even by giving water less hot, made possible it would never "end"...
Always for the same reasons...
Modern instant gas heaters are small and made as compact as you can, though powerful ones and combi ones furnace+heater according to regulations should be to be kept outside, so there are models that with the same space use do both home heating and sanitary water, they can feed up to 7-8 radiators for home heating and provide sanitary water as hot as 80 degrees celsius...downsides is that they're easy to break and expensive to service.
They're certainly more energy efficient than a tank...though it was mainly because of space, gas in europe is cheap and gas reach virtually any-place, rural or not.

Norway: Norway is lucky, they got tons of cost-zero stuff to make energy with, and they've a government who really care of alternative energy, not just to make money out of eco/enviroinmental policies like others.... they've the stuff to do so and learned to use it...from the geysers to the fjords and tides etc...that means they can produce really cheap electricity, so they have electric tank heaters, and rely much on electrics, norvegians do have wood houses and I suppose the hot water thing in houses developped similarly to what it has been in the US, unlike the rest of europe.
Also in Norway there is not an high population density, most people lives in indipendent homes and decently sized, bigger spaces-larger homes...no problem to fit in a large tank heater....




This post was last edited 12/18/2014 at 03:58
Post# 799648 , Reply# 24   12/18/2014 at 02:06 (3,388 days old) by tolivac (greenville nc)        

Actually the universal motors in vacuum cleaners are VERY efficient-better than 80%.This ban is actually based on misunderstanding---politicians aren't techical folks-they do not know how motors and other electric and electronic things work.The motor in your vacuum is underloaded-so its drawing less power than what the nameplate may indicate.The nameplate rating is based upon the motor being tested in the labratory.The motor is powered and loaded to a condition where it can operate continuously without overheating.A universal type motor in say a power tool is loaded more heavily than your vacuum cleaner.The tool motor has to turn a drill bit or saw blade thru material-this is harder than turning a vacuum cleaner fan.Same if the universal motor is in say a kitchen machine like a mixer.Another thing the vacuum maker used the higher rating on the motor to give the customer the illusion the machine is more powerful.The vacuum cleaner performance is really depends on the DESIGN of the machine rather than the power of the motor.Ban should be thrown out.Too many variables here-and politicans aren't qualified to make techinical decisions.The series type-universal motor is used in many appliances besidces vacuum cleaners.It is one of the most common motors we use next to induction motors.And probably will be for some time-both universal and induction motors are well known,made,and inexpensive.

Post# 799762 , Reply# 25   12/19/2014 at 08:29 (3,387 days old) by foraloysius (Leeuwarden, Friesland, the Netherlands)        

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Freddy:

Norway has only two geysers and they are not on the main land, but on Spitsbergen, an island far north from the main land, in the Arctic sea.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_hot...

Vacuums, efficiency etc:

Already in another thread I told about my high efficient vacuum. It's the best I ever had on all aspects, including suction power. The rants about these vacuums will stop as soon as people have experienced themselves. I wonder sometimes how many people put blunt statements on this website about appliances without any experience with them. That includes the statement about American appliances being more efficient than European.


Post# 799764 , Reply# 26   12/19/2014 at 09:05 (3,387 days old) by kenmoreguy89 (Valenza Piemonte, Italy- Soon to be US immigrant.)        

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Yup... you're right! Obviously I confused with wind power.
Anyway...that doesn't change the sense...thanks for pointing that out for sake of correctness though!
According to Wikipedia:
"Of the total production in 2011 of 128 TWh, 122 TWh was from hydroelectric* plants, 4795 GWh was from thermal power, and 1283 GWh was wind generated."



*fjords
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electricity...




This post was last edited 12/19/2014 at 09:38
Post# 799768 , Reply# 27   12/19/2014 at 09:20 (3,387 days old) by kenmoreguy89 (Valenza Piemonte, Italy- Soon to be US immigrant.)        

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P:S
I read things are changing to worse now...that's sad to hear..


Post# 799783 , Reply# 28   12/19/2014 at 11:34 (3,387 days old) by henene4 (Heidenheim a.d. Brenz (Germany))        

We have a two year old Miele vacuum. It is one of the GreenLine models (S5, to be exactly). Two years ago, 1300W weren't much!
But even though, we only run it 900W (Eco\Silence setting) all the time and still get the same results.
Same with Evo-cycles on washers: If programmed well, they can be really good. They don't have to be, but certanly can.


Post# 799809 , Reply# 29   12/19/2014 at 14:54 (3,387 days old) by kenmoreguy89 (Valenza Piemonte, Italy- Soon to be US immigrant.)        

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Henene...
I have a 60s CGE vacuum cleaner that I use as my daily driver, that of watts pulls 450-500 (tag says 450) it's the most silent vacuum I've ever seen!
And yes it do the same job and has the same suction of the other Bosch vacumm I have (and I still keep in the closet for some reasons, I should dump it now that I think of it) that pulls 1000-1100 watts.....
The CGE does all what I need it to do....I really wouldn't need a stronger suction than that.
I cannot imagine if my CGE pulled as much as 1300 or more then I'd have a jet....
By having to do with vintage stuff, i could well see that vacuums as well other small apliances involved in the past but modern "watts craze" thing, could be made using less and providing same results, vintage small appliances were the proof... it was clear to me already that this thing of watts was just part of a selling strategy...




When you say: "But even though, we only run it 900W (Eco\Silence setting) all the time and still get the same results."
I can well believe that....they were made pulling more not to actually go faster, but to give the "idea" they may go faster whilew they didn't.
But le me tell you, washers, it's just another different matter, much more complex than vacuum cleaners matter....







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Post# 799935 , Reply# 30   12/20/2014 at 16:09 (3,386 days old) by jerrod6 (Southeastern Pennsylvania)        

In my experience with natural gas, having a hot water tank does require more energy than if you have a tankless.  I converted from a hot water tank to gas tankless and my gas bill immediately took a drop of $15 a month and this was several years ago.

 

It is also true that if have you washer or DW connected to hot water, but have to purge the line of cold water, you waste the water in the line and you are still paying for supplying the hot water. You pay somewhere, in the hot water heater, in your water bill, or at the appliance that is going to use it.  

 

Even so my washer with heater and DW are connected to hot water.  In the winter the laundry is around 62F so 5 gallons of 120F entering the washer will quickly be converted to lukewarm to cold. Imagine what temperature this water might be after 20 to 65 minutes of a wash? 

 

I would rather pay to heat the water at the point of use.  No washing...no heating wash water.  No dishes, no heating, no shower - no heating.

 

It seems the manufactures and the DOE are fooling consumers and themselves.  You pay somewhere, at the machine or at the water heater, or your dishwasher will never really "sanitize" a load because the heater just turns off because it has run as long as the manufacturer decides it can and still be energy efficient -at least for that particular machines energy rating.  You supplying hot water at a specific temperature for an appliance it to work correctly and meet it's energy rating = you still paying for the energy - just  outside of the machine.  


Post# 799988 , Reply# 31   12/20/2014 at 23:37 (3,385 days old) by Intuitive (Inner West, Sydney Australia. )        
SQ with a heater....

I would buy the front loader with rear top mount controls IN A SECOND if it had a heater. We have instanteous gas water heater but prefer to have better heat select if heater/ thermostat installed. ...... The 2015 Electronic model isd seriously good looking!!!!

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Post# 800031 , Reply# 32   12/21/2014 at 08:39 (3,385 days old) by kenmoreguy89 (Valenza Piemonte, Italy- Soon to be US immigrant.)        

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I don't like it, don't like front loaders, so don't understand how you may like it and buy it in a second, but I fully see that if not an heater a thermostat so a thermically controlled water mixer/valve inside a front loader would be best and convenient, as well as a sensor telling you what temperature the wash water is, as for it's nature of front loader it's impossible to determine well what the exact filling temperature is in that moment, this may vary on many circumstances like more people using hot water in that moment or in case of a condo water coming less hot from common heater, with Top loaders (at least the old good ones, or the speed queen) who don't have that idiotic lid lock, you could actually mix water in the tub by mixing hot with warm or anyway adjust by sensing it yourself to the desired temoerature you wish, but front loaders takes a while for you to sense the water temperature by touching the glass, I mean glass takes awhile to heat up and tell what real temperature is the water in the drum... you have no other way to do that except sticking your fingers in the drawer during filling and "guess" ... so the manual mixing thing to get the water as hot as you want is pretty limited and almost impossible..you just can't make a front loader with the usual 3 settings without averting any risk of filling it too hot or too cool, so the cold-warm-hot...you'd need more options...and you need it to do that..you just cannot yourself.






This post was last edited 12/21/2014 at 09:28
Post# 800039 , Reply# 33   12/21/2014 at 09:12 (3,385 days old) by kenmoreguy89 (Valenza Piemonte, Italy- Soon to be US immigrant.)        
As I said before...

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Over here where for some silly reasons (actually no reasons) we have domestic washers still coming with a cold inlet only like 50 years ago, there are devices of different makes who let you connect the washer to hot just with the one cold inlet they come with, these devices mix it getting water outlet as hot as you set the thing, from 30 to 90 degrees celsius, just like your typical euro thermostat do.. it'll mix it to the proper temperature you set.....


www.fotovoltaicosulweb.it/guida/n...


Post# 800063 , Reply# 34   12/21/2014 at 11:36 (3,385 days old) by foraloysius (Leeuwarden, Friesland, the Netherlands)        

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I'll pass on such equipment. Not only would I have to buy such a device, but also get a hot water pipe and tap installed. And then with the heating water combo I have, which in itself is very efficient (HR combo) it wouldn't be very efficient anyway, because it needs a little time to come up to full temperature. By the time it has reached 60 degrees Celcius, the laundry in the washing machine is already wet. Not a smart investment for me. I'll stick to cold fill only for reasons of efficiency.

Post# 800071 , Reply# 35   12/21/2014 at 12:09 (3,385 days old) by kenmoreguy89 (Valenza Piemonte, Italy- Soon to be US immigrant.)        

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I am not 100% sure, but I think the device do that itself, since it's supposed to be a hook up central and you connect to it the drain of the machine as well (so the the device has to be connected to a drain), so it's likely that before filling it will run water for some seconds so you will have hot water coming out...
At my current home/apt we have central hot water, and to come out hot at 45 it takes about 3 seconds, 8 seconds and it's 60 (at it's fullest)..in low demand hours it reaches even more degrees.
At our seaside house/apt we have our own tankless heater and furnace and it makes water as hot as 85...it takes 5 seconds to have water come out very hot ...it's in the bathroom, one of the last ones to be installed when it were still possible to install them inside...(many people do that anyway still now, especially for the self-installing small ones, which would be still eligible for inside installation anyway according to laws)
I know of people who bought toploaders here that bought a tankless just for the machine, small tankless are so cheap... my granmther also, by living at the 13th and last floor she doesn't get water as hot as the others, so for her maytag she got installed a tankless just above her machine...
If you can, so you have a gas hook up available and space, even by buying an heater on purpose and this device, I guess that in about a year these things pay themselves given the cost of electricty here...
Not sure about the cost of electricity compared to what gas cost in Netherlands, not even sure about your typical load, but here ,you'd save alot anyway, also, many people now who have a chimney available will buy stoves who heats water or will strive to opt for any sort of method except gas and electricty....this device is excellent whenever you have an alternative to electricity (meant as element) to heat your water, electricty is generally much more expensive than gas or everything else ... not to mention that it saves alot of time too...
But again, this thing is not for everyone, many people cannot but if you can do that easily why not?
The lack of possibilty for an hot water faucet or gas heater installation is what has stopped many folks here from buying double fill such as the cheaper LG asian pulsator or the most expensive agitator toploaders from different makes...this is just an alternative to that, with the difference that can feed a washer with it's own heater and whenever you source is not hot enough, it will anyway reduce electricty consumption...





This post was last edited 12/21/2014 at 12:58
Post# 800129 , Reply# 36   12/21/2014 at 17:53 (3,384 days old) by mielerod69 (Australia)        
Electric Instantaneous Hot Water

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I have bought an apartment and it has an instantaneous hot water system which runs on 3 phase power. It's total load is 14.6 kw. I have my dishwasher and washing machine connected to it. My Miele washing machine has two inlet hoses and the machine will mix the water to the temperature selected on the control panel.
The hot water heater has 2 settings: 38 degrees C or 55 degrees C.


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Post# 800341 , Reply# 37   12/22/2014 at 17:09 (3,383 days old) by jerrod6 (Southeastern Pennsylvania)        

I have a whole house tankless gas heater.  It is located in the basement.  It can deliver very hot water even when the temperature is around 5 degrees, however its performance suffers the same fate as every hot water heater that has ever been in my house.  It must overcome the long pipe run to the kitchen and bathrooms.  Making this run worse is the fact that the delivery pipes in my basement and through the house are 1 inch pipes.  So before you get hot water you must clear the 1 inch pipes of the cold water standing in them.  I don't like this but I cannot tear out the walls to run standard 5/6 inche delivery pipes all over the house.  In my bathroom on the highest floor you need to clear out over 2 1/2 gallons of water from the pipes until the hot water reaches the faucet, but once you have it you have it for as long as you need it.

 

 I discovered this problem with the long runs when I was investigating way my water bill was so high.  Now I recover the cold water in a bucket instead of letting it run down the drain while waiting for hot water, which has lowered my bill.

 

With this condition it would be very hard to use a DW that does not heat it's own water as my current model mostly gets cold to lukewarm but is able to heat it.   Less of a  problem with the washer as it is near the water heater...but even with that it will get a good amount of cold water before hot water reaches it. 

 

So I am all for onboard heaters in every appliance.


Post# 800556 , Reply# 38   12/23/2014 at 16:33 (3,383 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        

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OK, persons seem to be forgetting on demand water heaters were common in the USA. In fact Mr. Rudd's big ole cast iron with copper coils units were one of the first patented water heaters in the USA.

Rudd sold those units for both domestic and institutional use. For heavy demand one could operate several in tandem that connected to a storage tank thus giving unlimited hot water. They could also be run off a side arm from the boiler as well.

The last bit is how many large apartment buildings in NYC and elsewhere in the Northeast still get hot water; via a sidearm off the boiler (then coal now oil or gas), though there are calls to have buildings install tank units so not to have boilers fired during the warmer months just to supply hot water.

Instant water heaters fell out of favor as Americans moved away from baths towards taking showers. IIRC such devices shine when hot water is used for filling tubs such as bath, laundry, dishwashing, etc... versus the continuous requirements that showers bring. Yes, today it is possible to provide but do not think it was the case with earlier units. To do so back in the day you may have had to have more than one instant unit.

Do not also forget that until the 1950's or even later you still could find "cold water flats" all over NYC, San Francisco and elsewhere. Rather than install instant water heaters as in Europe those buildings either were torn down and rebuilt (with central hot water supplied), or retrofitted with hot water taps. j


Post# 800596 , Reply# 39   12/23/2014 at 18:51 (3,382 days old) by kenmoreguy89 (Valenza Piemonte, Italy- Soon to be US immigrant.)        

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Well...I am not totally sure that the gas tankless of old had such a limitation themselves because of their "old" nature, after all run them for 5 mins to fill a tub or 15 to take a long shower doesnt change anything in the functioning, but you're right on this point, since many were not vented outside, oh by the way, it's not a case that here water heaters are called "scaldabagno" (word still used today to refer to a water heater whenever tankless or not gas or electric) which translated is "bath heaters" not water heaters, this is because initially for many folks they were what made their bath hot (they were not used in kitchens as it was already much to have one in the bathroom)... anyway the gas were the most common and these units as said were often used for short time like filling a tub, then air the room etc...to go for a long shower without limitations you needed to have a venting outside or chimney and because of their nature of condo/apts it was not always possible, some who had the space opted for electric tanks, but many didn't have the space and used the gas tankless carefully and for short time and whenever gas line didn't reach the room there were always the dear cylinders, lack of a venting reuqired attention and it was not to die of carbon monoxide poisoning...which was so common back then when these units including gas stoves (not cooking stoves but to heat the air) were used...
Sidearm:
The way modern apartments like mine got and still get their hot water is not really that different, in this condo (a series of 5 identical 9 floors buildings) we have a common insta boiler with a supprt heated tank, the main heater ran with oil till recently, now modified to gas.. the tank has a pump to ensure water recirculation inside the "sending" piping to avoid that water in low demand hours and cold months (overnight) to get cool inside the long pipeline that there's from the boiler/furnace located in building 3, I am in the 4 and so it will recirculate again and again back again in the heated support tank... as said now the whole thing was changed to run with gas, as is the furnace who runs radiators (same unit with burner modified) gas is sure cheaper than oil and so are doing almost everybody, our system things has the same sidearm setting, 1 for each side of every building, 2 for building...so 10 pipes giving water to 5 units all coming back to the same tank under pressure.
Our condo like many in Italy was made in around mid 70s which was the era of the condos boom and when most of apartments complexes (born as complexes) were made...

During the time they started realizing that maybe common water heater was not the way to go, too many problems, leaks etc, people on high floors not receiving it hot enough, different requirements of hotness by different people with different habits, and not for last, too much heat dispersion in pipes, so about late 70s more like 80s actually you started having new condos furnished with individual tankless for hot water.... (one for every apt)
The same was starting to happen also in some "historical-older-downtown" buildings.. space was and is precious and tankless was the way to go vs a tank, but will tell more later...
You find many condos of the 70s like mine using common heaters and with this sidearm system and to change to our own heater has really a crazy cost...
Anyway...retruning talking about the old heater thing:

The thing of an heater for every room applied for older buildings as said, like ones made in 10s 20s 30s 40s and 50s.........or even much before...
Some of these (when the inhabitants had the money) went through a renovation/retrefitting and have had hot piping made around the 70s, but before, they still and mostly had the tankless in every room to go with...
Many single homes the same, we have had a large amount of Liberty homes "villette" in this town (even more back then) and if you visit one empty since the 60s you can still spot heaters in every bathroom, just ones who went through a deep renovation in the 70s do have hot water lines..
Also, the heater in every room/ point of need applied to the many buildings who weren't born as apartments, like schools institutions like convents, libraries etc....and so where it was not really possible to make an hot piping out of the blue...not for cheap for sure...
It must be said that often missed the money to went through a deep renovation/retrofitting and install this piping was unlikely because of the target of people these older buildings were destinated" to initially ...now, well now of course it's not like before and many of these older buildings, let alone single homes, went through renovations and got hot water lines installed, but in the 60s and 70s many, perhaps the majority still had to "upgrade" in this sense...
Most of people who lived in the typical "centro storico" -"old downtowns" were modest families....many of these people were former farmers etc that became "working class" employed in factories during the economical boom, these people by working managed to put away enough savings in about decade to manage to leave these older apts and move in the newborn/modern "MOL"-"BOL" complexes of the 70s that were starting popping out like mushrooms, though complexes of this kind (simple complexes) became associated with "working class" (For example the complex i live in is named "arte orafa"- "goldsmith art" since they were meant to become home for all of the employees of jewels factories/laboratories, which is the economic field this towm is centered in, you should have heard about jewels of Valenza) and it's in the 70s infact that the older buildings in the "centri storici" became food for realtors who invested money to restore them and transform these old/ancient and beautiful buildings in luxurious apartments for wealthy folks, the restoration included putting hot pipes and tankless heaters for every apt...
Infact in many cities and towns what were mid class or poor neighborhoods in the past, so the downtown areas, became soon areas for rich folks, the ancient buildings you see now in many centri storici of many towns, maybe also with nice shops here and ther, were transformed to become luxurious buildings and places for wealthy folks, thinking in many cases they were just the opposite in the 50s and 60s sounds almost impossible....
In apartments made from mid 80s and 90s, you won't find any common heater anymore, but tankless placed in balconies and especially in the ones made in the 90s you'll just find tankless all in one furnace+heater...all placed on the balconies....

A typical balcony tankless setting:


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This post was last edited 12/23/2014 at 20:21
Post# 801165 , Reply# 40   12/27/2014 at 22:19 (3,378 days old) by jerrod6 (Southeastern Pennsylvania)        

Yesterday I used the DW to clean china used for the holiday. I had a variety of cheeses, crackers, jams, and mustards for lunch and dinner, then let everything sit on the counter overnight.   I used the china/crystal cycle which uses a water temp between 98F and 118F.  Everything was seriously clean. I measured the incoming water temp for the wash, it was 92F.  The last rinse incoming water was 98F. So this is the water temp coming into my DW when the outside temperature is in the 50's.  If I cleared out the gallons of cold water sitting in the pipes the incoming water would be about 137F...but I am spending more money wasting water than I am using by letting the machine heat it's own water.

 

I normally use DW cycles with wash temps between 130F to 170F and all last rinses are about 150F,  so I am totally  in favor of an appliance that can heat it's own water.


Post# 801223 , Reply# 41   12/28/2014 at 08:42 (3,378 days old) by kenmoreguy89 (Valenza Piemonte, Italy- Soon to be US immigrant.)        

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Then I wonder how much the water costs where you live!!!
Either electricty costs nothing or water has crazy expenses..
Over here for 1 cubic meter, which is 1000Liters cost varies from 1 euros to 1,36 the most expenive.
If I had my own gas heater right now (as by using condo water) as you said you do I'd save alot vs letting the machine heat herself, and i really wouldn't care of cost of water cleared as it'd be nothing....even supposing I have to clear 10 liters which is very much, it'd be 1/100 of 1,36 which is the cost for 1000liters, so you'd clear 0.0136 euros of mere water cost...who cares???
Maybe it could matter something for the gas used to bring to temperature those 10 liters vs how much machine use to heat itself the needed for the load, but not what water cost.....but again, it will depend on how much electricty cost vs the gas and how well the heater works, and the pipes lenght to the point of use so the distance, the diameter...how well your house is insulated etc....many factors....sometimes because of it is also advisable to have more heaters dislocated around the house and more near points of use.
Here with our costs it'd be so cheaper anyway in most of the cases even the extreme ones like yours.. we have electric bills composed of 50% of taxes and adjunctive costs in percentage to the mere energy cost used, gas is not like that, also cost of gas itself is also much lower to the potential power than what the mere electricity cost per kwh is.. gas is generally cheaper than electricty in US too..but due to some extreme factors, sometimes you would find yourself spending more using a gas-heated utility vs one who use electricty itself like in your case...
I can well see that with a gas dryer as well, my bi-monthly electric bill with a 3kwh max limit, dropped 3 times less from 150-170I spent when I had electric dyers, to 45-60 euros, now with the gas dryer, and my 3montly gas bill raised from 30 euros to 45 only, it's also faster and I dry more at once, the dryers i had before were small european style dryers.

I'm also all for appliances who can heat themselves, but am also realistic to say that heating their water from 0 isn't always cheaper as filling it hot may not be as well, so good thing is them coming double fill but with possibility to chose as different conditions changes home to home...claim self heating is always cheaper is nonsense as it is claiming filling them hot is...it depends...and it's right everyone has this option to choose, not just go with what is better for the most, being pelnalized.
I can see many Y fill hoses/adaptors here who can be hooked up to cold and hot taps....if you have a double fill machine who can heat, you can always chose to close the cold or hot tap whenever you feel "it's not worth the candle" and you spend less using one or the other....machine will anyway make sure water will be to the desidered point of hotness in any cases, what will cheaper so heat itself or already hot it's up to the conditions....
http://www.ebay.com/itm/3-8-diameter-WAS...


Post# 801338 , Reply# 42   12/28/2014 at 23:30 (3,377 days old) by Intuitive (Inner West, Sydney Australia. )        
Another reason why We need a washer with an inbuilt heater

We have been dumbed down by the greenie vote... Our Govt has banned electric storage tank water heater AND All newer water heaters are temperature limited to 55 Celsius. If I want a HOT wash, the only option is to use the inbuilt heater. I have tweaked the temping valve to max hot, I can get 60C max. My plumber said we can't bypass the "kiddy" valve.

I HATE being told what I can or can't do in my own home!!!!


Post# 801363 , Reply# 43   12/29/2014 at 05:47 (3,377 days old) by washer111 ()        
@Intuitive

At least in the case of a Solar solution, you are not limited:

It heats when there is sunlight until the water boils!
The electric boost can be set to 65ºC at maximum.
Our Solar system was fitted in late-May last year. I was shocked when I saw Solahart "recommends" leaving the electric booster activated year-round, to comply with Govt. "Legionella-Protection" standards. In high-usage households, I cannot begin to comprehend the enormous cost of this, with 25c/kWh utility prices.

The tempering valve is only required on water lines going to the bathroom/kitchen areas. All other hot taps are permitted to be straight-hot, and unadulterated.

This is all well and good, until you consider some houses may have laundries and bathrooms sharing the same inlet pipes, or the plumbing is arranged in such a way that you can either temper the whole house or nothing...
The latter is the case for us, which is frustrating - as I like to supply the DishDrawer with lots of hot water to save time and energy, but since our hot tap in the kitchen laundry was buggered (and never going to be fixed) and because we replaced our TL with the Miele in late-2012, it is more of a pet peeve than anything else.


Post# 802447 , Reply# 44   1/5/2015 at 15:34 (3,370 days old) by iej (.... )        
I beg to differ:Stored hot water's not that unusual here

Stored hot water is definitely not unusual in Europe, it's by far the most common way of doing it here in Ireland and also in France and it's pretty common in Britain too.

The usual setup here is like this:

The system in my house isn't too unusual, and this is how it works:

We've a 4 zone hydronic central heating system (i.e. circulated water through radiators). There's a thermostat and timer control for each zone, so you can programme them all sorts of ways. We use wireless thermostats to get better accuracy by placing them in the middle of the rooms on tables etc for each of our heating zones and then there's a control system with stats for the hot water too.

Hot water's heated in a large 500 litre very heavily insulated storage cylinder.
It has two heat exchanger coils (one for the gas boiler), one for the solar panels on the roof and also a back-up electric heating element.

There's a control system on the hot water tank that will always prioritise solar heating where possible. If the demand isn't met by solar, it calls for heat from the gas boiler.

The gas boiler is a Veissman 4-pipe condensing system - this means it has 2 flows and 2 returns. One side is used for the radiators and the other for the hot water heating coil.
When the hot water tank calls for heat, the boiler switches a diverter valve over to the hot water circuit. It then heats to a much higher temperature than it would for the radiators and continues to do so until the demand is satisfied (or 40 minutes has elapsed after which it will drop back to normal temperature and reactive the radiators and use lower temp water to heat the water).

The system's very efficient as the insulation levels on the hot water tank are up there with a thermos flask. It can hold the temperature of the water for a couple of days without much heat loss.

In France, similar systems were common and older systems were often purely electric heating, mostly using cheaper off-peak power.

On-demand systems here would generally be associated with smaller properties, retrofits to very old houses and small flats (not that many Irish people 3% or so live in apartments).

But, I think sometimes on this forum there's a lot of tendencies to make sweeping generalisations about the US and Europe. Neither place has a single standard way of heating water. I know US homes with hydronic / solar systems like mine and I know US homes with stand alone gas-water heaters and even instantaneous systems.

I know British homes with combi-gas boilers providing instantaneous water and more with various forms of tanked water and heat exchangers.

These systems vary a lot on both continents.


Post# 802452 , Reply# 45   1/5/2015 at 16:08 (3,370 days old) by henene4 (Heidenheim a.d. Brenz (Germany))        

Our house is about to be refitted with a new heating system next month or March.
Right now, we have high temperature oil heating system with an old 300l stainless steal tank, insulated to about 6cm. As we have floor heating, we generally use a tad less oil than others. But basicly, we have the same setup as iej, except:
-No solar and thus no electric back up heater.
-No condensing system.
-No power modulation (I suppose by "heating with less power for the radiators" he means his gas burner reduces power output, so not only on and off like ours, but 2 or more power levels)
The burner (which failed after 27 years on the weekend after christmas and has been replaced till the new system can be installed) has an output power of 20kW.
It will be replaced with Rotex A1 20kw oil condensing system (condensing means heat recovery from the exhaust gases by cooling the gases with the cold flow-in water) and a 300l closed circut plastic tank by Rotex as well. (Closed circut means that the tank has one filling of water that remains in it and two heat exchangers, one bringing the heat in from the burner system and one takeing it out for hot water production by passing the tab water through it). Advantage for us: The tank NEVER needs to be descaled as there is one filling of water in the tank that stays the same and thus, no fresh water with fresh minerals can get into the tank and cause problems. All parts comming into contact with fresh tap water are one heat exchanger that stays scale free because of the high flow rates. At least, in theory. We hope.


Post# 802453 , Reply# 46   1/5/2015 at 16:22 (3,370 days old) by kenmoreguy89 (Valenza Piemonte, Italy- Soon to be US immigrant.)        

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Look...
It's a known fact that Europe  compared to the US has  generally smaller  living spaces, it's a known fact that while in the US you have a very large  slice of population living in indipendent or semi-indipendent  decently sized housing,  in Europe generally that is   more like  a privilege..so  you   have a very much larger slice of population living in apts and or smaller homes that the US.
Even Norway is europe, but as you can see things differ and substantially, so are costs of energy....
Uk as Ireland are different in this sense as well,there except from larger cities you will find much more indipendent or semi-indipendent homes than the rest of Europe, terrached houses are not that common in Italy and France and Spain as they're there, a terrached house is what folks here think an UK-IRE house would look like.... that means slightly more spaces, your own roof to put a solar system, an house with a basement to fit a tank heater... so you may find more homes heating with a tank system, but anyway less than the US did.
France, like Spain, it's more like here in matter of spaces, and while it's true  France used more storage  electric water systems it's also true  that this  was for homes that had the space to do so,  France got lots of nuclear energy that also sold greatly and largely to countries without,  so space permitting you will find more tank electric heaters in France...but anyway not largely.. and remember back then electric systems didn't allow an amperage high enouigh to support electric tankless so either you went by gas or small electric tankless scattered around...but today these electric on demand systems  can be largely found in France....
If you just go back of some years you couldn't spot so many of these tankless systems in the US than an electric or gas tank,  just a few around..ask anyone...
It's generalizing as we're doing a generic speech...generic means generalizing... ...that doesn't mean that is any less correct or true...
If you take europe on it's whole you have the differences I have exposed before...

My Uncles up in manine recently swtiched from a gas tank to a intant one because it's most the time they're away than what they're at home, so did their neighbors , but while in Europe due to reason of spaces these tankless  systems were so much popular back then already, in US they weren't much..if not at all, as Launderess pointed out they were in Bigger cities like NYC where you had conditions of spaces similar to "europe" ( again...taken on it's whole) ...but not elsewhere...
More and more people is switching to them, solar systems too...that doesn't mean it was so back then or just 15-20 years ago...





This post was last edited 01/05/2015 at 16:40
Post# 802469 , Reply# 47   1/5/2015 at 17:45 (3,369 days old) by iej (.... )        

Terrace houses would only really be the dominant form in Victorian areas (or older) of cities here which is definitely not the dominant form of housing.

Our housing stock's an absolute environmental disgrace by EU standards, just looking at a report.

43% of homes are detached (i.e. stand alone) and 73% of those are in rural/semi-rural settings (we like our space).
Average Irish dwelling emits 47% more CO2 than an average UK dwelling and 92% higher than the average for the EU-15 and 104% more than the EU-27!
50% of Irish homes were built after 1979 (two huge housing booms). We had absolutely no environmental regulations for homes pre 1979. So, you could install single glazing and minimal insulation and just burn more gas/oil etc to heat it.

Modern regulations are pretty tight on new build, almost approaching passive house standards.

The average Irish home is 104 m2 (1120 sq ft) (UK is 76m2)

Average US home varies enormously depending on the State, the cities and Eastern states, California etc bring the sizes way down on average (as they're representative of much more of the population than the sprawling homes of places like Utah)
Average (according to real estate sales) 1,761 sq ft.

Utah 2305 sq ft
Texas 2031 sq ft
MA - 1744 sq ft
California 1625 sqft
Washington DC : 1,000 sq ft

Also, bear in mind we design buildings to cope with expected serious winter temperatures of only -3ºC (26.6ºF) so the construction would be quite different to most of continental Europe and most of the continental US too. It's just not that cold. You really spend most of your time in Ireland designing against water ingress, dampness and condensation issues. For example, wood finishes here are a complete disaster no matter how good the treatments are they invariably rot or get broken up by lichens and moss.


Have a browse around www.daft.ie... (real estate site) if you want to get a sense of what Irish housing stock's like.

Link below is for Cork City set at €200,000 which is roughly what the average is coming out for house prices there $238,690 ... I'd say add 100,000 if you want to get into decent size family home territory though as it'll be dragged down by very small places / pokey student let investment apartments etc etc

There have been various attempts to get us to 'downsize' for environmental reasons and live in denser cities, but it's not what people vote for here and they generally have a total fixation on the house in the countryside ideal with an acre of land around it. Not entirely unlike attitudes you'd tend to get in the US.

Also, if you tell someone you live in an apartment immediately means it's something 'temporary' that one does when one's moving onto a 'proper house' and getting your foot on the property ladder.
Or, you're very young, single, divorced, etc etc.

There's a *huge* hang up about apartment dwelling in the Irish psyche. Immediately seems to bring up mental images of some kind of horrific council 'flats' or some kind of cat lady type characters. Total snobbery I know, but that's what people seem to think.
Irish banks won't even lend you a mortgage for a small apartment anymore as they consider them a high risk investment with less resale options.


CLICK HERE TO GO TO iej's LINK


Post# 802475 , Reply# 48   1/5/2015 at 18:18 (3,369 days old) by iej (.... )        
Just to give you an idea where we all stand on CO2

Brazil 1.9
Sweden 5.3
China 5.3
Switzerland 5.4
France 6.1
Eurozone 7.4
NZ 7.8
UK 7.9
Denmark 8.3
Ireland 8.9
Germany 9.1
Japan 9.2
OECD 10.1
Netherlands 11
Norway 11.7
USA 17.6
Australia 18.3

CO2 emissions metric tonnes per capita.

Bear in mind, climate (big issue in the US and Australia), industrial base (heavy vs light), economic development, available energy sources (hydro and nuclear especially) have a big bearing on this.


Post# 802479 , Reply# 49   1/5/2015 at 18:30 (3,369 days old) by kenmoreguy89 (Valenza Piemonte, Italy- Soon to be US immigrant.)        

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I am seing that based by areas in  this Cork City things changes,  anyway the prices are very good considering the price houses have here, I see it did  have set otuside the town in the link...but by setting in suburbs  I see things change as you move from outside to inside the town, now I want try to see inside the center..how prices changes..
I spot  detached as well a attached homes, you sure got better prices here considering prices for single homes like  that would be greater here...but that was obvious.....
But about the size  it reflects what I knew it were there....

The speech i did about terrace house was to be meant that while here when you speak of an house  to someone, in  an average town  like mine which is 20000 inhabitants not to mention a bigger one  is automatic and granted that you're speaking of an apartment, averagely on the 80 m2 range meant for a family of 3 or 4, in UK or IRE that often means a terrached house as an equivalent  of an apt here , here  typical towns are composed of 70% of condos....and the rest are anyway some sorts of multiapartments among smaller older homes  and anyway dibvided in singular apts  one next to another..So is Spain and France....
The single homes are typically outside the towns..or in little villages, and even there they're usually made to have at least 2 apts for each house...

Your own detached house that is only yours is something pretty valuable here...not many can, just if you've got plenty money, you're wealthy.. there's not the technical space for that otherwise... again, unless you're pretty wealthy...forget an house in the countryside..
But again that is line whith what I knew...no news...
All the rest like the datas about your efficience stuff is all info more which is anyway interesting but little have to do with discussion...




This post was last edited 01/05/2015 at 19:15
Post# 802485 , Reply# 50   1/5/2015 at 18:53 (3,369 days old) by kenmoreguy89 (Valenza Piemonte, Italy- Soon to be US immigrant.)        
Irish banks won't even lend you a mortgage for a small a

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ahahahah...here they won't  that's it..whatever house you're going to buy...


Post# 802488 , Reply# 51   1/5/2015 at 19:22 (3,369 days old) by iej (.... )        

The main reason for not fitting a water heater in US washing machines is very, very obviously down to electricity supply constraints though. Availability of hot water for filling is widespread on both sides of the Atlantic.

You can't get safely beyond 1500W or so on a 15 amp 110 - 120V circuit. Where as you get to 3000W on a UK / Ireland 13amp or even up to to 3600W on a CEE 7 continental type 16amp plug at 230V.

The reality is that most EU machines draw about 2800W to even 3000W when heating.

The other difference (and this impacts US front loaders and HE top loaders) is that the hot water may not fill long enough to flush the line from the heater/storage tank to the machine. So you'll need a heat source in the washer itself to ensure temp is reached.

Euro detergents have also been designed for temp profile washing.

Slow heat to 40C is excellent for activating enzymes and other components.

Heat to 60 or 90C to enhance the oxygen bleaches.

Where as US machines used to rely on chlorine bleach for whites and stains. Modern HE machines would definitely benefit from an internal heater.

You're basically trying to maintain very specific temps for a set time to clean your clothes with number of biochemical and chemical reactions. It's more complex than just washing with soap and bleach.

Does nobody do a washer that plugs into a dryer outlet?

At this stage you'd think they'd just fit a pair of 240V outlets for laundry and a 120V too. It's not exactly major wiring overheads when building new homes or refitting.









Post# 802499 , Reply# 52   1/5/2015 at 19:55 (3,369 days old) by kenmoreguy89 (Valenza Piemonte, Italy- Soon to be US immigrant.)        

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It's not so simple... and I will tell you why point by point:

"The main reason for not fitting a water heater in US washing machines is very, very obviously down to electricity supply constraints though. Availability of hot water for filling is widespread on both sides of the Atlantic."
As you said.... 

That may be true on ose side...but wrong on the other...
It may have had sense if american homes just had a 120 volt voltage, but since in many house  both by request or default you found a 240 volt possibility either for a "cooker" or an electric dryer or the water heater, I don't really see why they couldn't have come with an heater to be used in addition or from the start, just like dryers were...since the 240 volt line was in most cases anyway brought to the laundry location, but  it simply wasn't needed as most homes having already plenty hot water since the times of the winger washers that was how it was usual to go, unlike Europe (generally Europe to be clear), all the rest would have been a waste of precious time.
I'll tell you more, just look at many australian models of toploaders  who had this option to heat, in many cases and especially when your hot water was anyway delivered by an electric source (like many Us homes were and still is)  that would have coste you the same, it just wasn't time wise....and not economic wise if you had gas.
You can see that even with  many of the old Combos that while being wired to 240 volt still didn't have an heater if not one to keep it hot...

 

"The other difference (and this impacts US front loaders and HE top loaders) is that the hot water may not fill long enough to flush the line from the heater/storage tank to the machine. So you'll need a heat source in the washer itself to ensure temp is reached." 

That maybe true if you heater is  very very far from the machine, let run water for some seconds fix this problem and you save time and in some cases money too.
In any ways having one to keep it hot is advisable...I would also care more of proper outter tub insulation.

"Euro detergents have also been designed for temp profile washing. 

Slow heat to 40C is excellent for activating enzymes and other components. 

Heat to 60 or 90C to enhance the oxygen bleaches. "

Yes and no
While it's true that 40 is perfect for enxymes and more temp will give more off the bleaches, it's also true that detergents in the US were about the same once.....
Also since the introduction of TAED activators you don't technically need water as hot as 60celsius to get the oxy stuff work that will well start working at 30-40... and that is in both sides of the pond since long now...that's why after that they've developped stuff for colors. So now we can say that you can get bleaches and enzymes working togheter without temperatures deactivating enzymes and or water too cool to let the bleaches working...
But of course the more is the temp the more bleaches works.
The so called profile formulation of EU  is really overrated...and more like a tale...to me...I always got laundry perfect the same...
You could anyway get the perbortate working filling machine with water at 60 degrees,. toploaders did that by decades and I do that with mine, and am here to tell you my laundry comes out spotless white  and cleaner than whatever front loader's boilwash ever gave me..
But I see how a front loader may well need greater temperatures than a toploader. 
"Where as US machines used to rely on chlorine bleach for whites and stains. Modern HE machines would definitely benefit from an internal heater. "

For US machines you mean  modern front loaders or HE? That may well have been so for many models of  US front loaders both old an new..but not all and certainly not the toploaders, because I avoid like plague the chlorine and am here to tell you again my laundry is just spotless using simple detergent, I do not use  even additives of any kind.
Bleach was and is pretty much largely used here too in any ways for various purposes and for stains the same way, in US you just had the variant not all could reach water decently hot enough to their machines, cultural aspects and habits also plays an important role in this...
Really the thing is much more complex than that...




This post was last edited 01/05/2015 at 20:43
Post# 802502 , Reply# 53   1/5/2015 at 20:10 (3,369 days old) by iej (.... )        

Still makes absolutely no sense not to have a heater though.

Here, until the 2000s pretty much all machines had hot and cold fill then somehow were were sold the notion that cold fill only was more efficient... (For the manufacturer perhaps who saved a control mechanism and only had to make one version.

Where hot water was unavailable the machine was just connected to a Y firing feeding cold to both.

My new Miele is hot and cold fill (by special order). I wanted to use the solar water heating.

I think hot and cold fill with a heater is ideal. I don't really see why the option was dropped by most machine brands here when it was obviously considered useful for decades.

Most laundry rooms here still have hot and cold valves to connect to.


Post# 802504 , Reply# 54   1/5/2015 at 20:13 (3,369 days old) by kenmoreguy89 (Valenza Piemonte, Italy- Soon to be US immigrant.)        

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I know it's a nonsense, i fully agree with you!
Infact I have always said that if  I ever had to be obliged to go with a front loader for some  reasons,  it must be an european one double fill, with an heater and with a boilwash.
Otherwise I really better go to the river on the rock and boiling caldron.

I think that this is also due to these regulations in matter of cosnumption...a powerful  heater will never be understanded by these folks who makes energy laws up there...you now see how certain front loaders don't even allow a decent hot fill but will mix it....




This post was last edited 01/05/2015 at 21:15
Post# 802520 , Reply# 55   1/5/2015 at 22:18 (3,369 days old) by henene4 (Heidenheim a.d. Brenz (Germany))        

Our laundry room was done in 1957 (old part of the house), has not been redone since then and has cold feed only.
Germany practicly always relied on cold only feed. I don't know a single machine that could have a hot&cold conection avaible for households in Germany until the early 90s. But I could be wrong.


Post# 802521 , Reply# 56   1/5/2015 at 22:27 (3,369 days old) by kenmoreguy89 (Valenza Piemonte, Italy- Soon to be US immigrant.)        

kenmoreguy89's profile picture

Same is in Italy and France and spain.
Many earlier italian automatic machines here used to come with double fill as well, but as I said since in most of cases there was no possibility to do that and it was of no use, it was soon abandoned,  so cold only became standard,  when in newer houses was made an hook up it was made putting a cold fill only.......and even today under a large request of machines having a double fill  the manufacturers still go on selling cold fill only and not offering this option in front loaders, ever... home builders the same...a double hook-up is not contemplated if not specifically asked..though many have washers in bathrooms and or near a sinks now, and it's soon to run an hot pipe,  some people,  where  no  hot  water line is possible but gas is available  will  install a gas heater just for the machine as  I said....everything will be made to save on electricity, they're skinning us alive with costs!
There used to be a seller near our town who would sell aristons meant for UK and Aussie market with double fill, because of it he sold them for the double price...they were always all booked, they were rare..

They made lots of money out of LG too, they were and are regurarly sold in normal stores...

And of course there are the american toploaders  sold by specific dealers (often heating and cooling shops  and or gas dryer dealers) given their costs were only for those who had money...but they were  sold in good quantities as well, they just are higher standards not everyone can afford...

 




This post was last edited 01/05/2015 at 22:55

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