Thread Number: 58290  /  Tag: Modern Dishwashers
Modern Dishwashers
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Post# 807999   2/7/2015 at 01:43 (3,338 days old) by jakeseacrest (Massachusetts)        

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Either I have turned into a cranky old man or I'm just a fed up consumer. When did using an automatic dishwasher in this day and age turn into complete frustration? In my day you went to the grocery store and bought Cascade, Electrasol, Palmolive, etc and there wasn't a million different varieties to choose from...you bought your favorite brand and that was it. No pods, tabs, different scents...you chose powder or gel. You went home and ran your dishwasher and in an hour you knew you had clean, dry, and sanitized dishes. Dishwashers used gallons of water and force to clean your families dishes and not a trickle that could take 4 hours.

I don't want the EPA in my kitchen telling me that an ingredient in my dishwasher detergent is promoting algae in lakes or that in the grand scheme of energy efficiency my new dishwasher is going to take days to wash.

I don't want to have to wait until the sun and the moon align or to sacrifice an animal to the appliance gods to get dishes that don't have a powdery film.

STAY OUT OF MY LIFE AND MY KITCHEN!





Post# 808005 , Reply# 1   2/7/2015 at 04:47 (3,337 days old) by Frigilux (The Minnesota Prairie)        

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You aren't alone in your frustration with all things HE and others will add their litany to this thread.

Overall, I've not found well-chosen HE appliances to be a problem. I love my extremely frugal front-loading washer (2010 Frigidaire) and dishwasher (2014 GE). Both do an excellent job of cleaning, albeit with longer cycle times than the vintage appliances I grew up with in the 1960s-70s.

1. Greater choices in dishwasher detergents: You're welcome to purchase the powder or gel you like. I prefer tabs/pacs for both laundry and dishes. It seems there are a dozen versions of every brand and I find the mania for specific scents in dishwasher detergents ridiculous; but since you know what you prefer, zero-in on that and ignore the rest. My new daily driver is Member's Mark Ultimate Clean Pacs, which is, refreshingly, available in only one version, LOL.

2. Cycle times: You're right; they're definitely longer than the 30-60 minute cycles on vintage machines. My 2014 GE has a Normal cycle time of 1 hour + 51 minutes with temp boost. This cleans even most pots/pans well. I use the Normal cycle without temp boost for most loads as my water heater is set at 140 degrees. That brings cycle time down to 1 hour + 15 minutes. Most machines also offer Light (49 minutes on mine) and Quick/Express (30 minutes) cycles that do a great job on less demanding loads. Having said that, when I BobLoad the GE with cookware containing baked/burned/fried-on soils and choose the Heavy Cycle + Pre-Soak + Sanitize options, the time jumps to 3 hours + 28 minutes. However, everything comes out completely clean. That wasn't the case with my 1985 TOL KitchenAid "hurricane-in-a-box" on its much shorter Pots/Pans cycle.

3. EPA: You have to take the good (Remember what the air looked like in large cities in 1963? I do.) with the bad (longer cycle times for washers/dishwashers). I live in a state with 10,000 lakes, so the alge issue is relevant. Both laundry and dishwasher detergent formulas have improved since the phosphate bans, and I have no major complaints with either of them.

I have my own beefs with HE---don't get me started on what I think of impeller-based top-load washers---but quite honestly, I'm very happy with every energy/water-saving device (including toilets) in my house.




This post was last edited 02/07/2015 at 05:29
Post# 808007 , Reply# 2   2/7/2015 at 05:57 (3,337 days old) by henene4 (Heidenheim a.d. Brenz (Germany))        

I really don't get the hate about HE systems. Either the US has totally different appliances than we here in the EU (which is not the case for sure), you're detergent manufactureres are not abled to do anything right (which I doubt) or you might be just a little picky.
I can understand that 4 hours for a load of laundry to wash only can be annoying. And not clean laundry can just be as well. But raveing about a washer that might take an hour and a half instead of half an hour, but uses about half the water for a load twice as big is just not up to date. Simply said: Times change. And they have changed. Have you adapted?
We here in Germany have no phosphate ban. We still use our 30% phosphate DW detergent. But we invested in systems to keep these phosphates out of our water.
We in Germany had DWs with 1 hour cycle time as well. That was about 20 years ago. Or more. Now, we have DWs that can take up to 4 hours as well. But if one knows little about the DW he\she uses, you'll probably settle for something like an Automatic cycle. Takes a maximum of 2:30 for example, but can take only 1 hour as well. But you will never have to deal with not enough cleaning power. Our waste of water and energy.
Our washers here today estimate about 2:45 for a full load on a normal - not standard - cycle. That's about twice as much as 20 years ago. But our washers now wash about twice as much laundry cleaner than 20 years ago. And use about 3/4 the water and energy.
Fact is: Yeah. Laundry has changed. Dishwashing has changed. Both take longer. Both have more querks today.
But basicly, they are more efficent, better at cleaning, more flexible, more adapting and - overall - more up to date.


Post# 808017 , Reply# 3   2/7/2015 at 08:28 (3,337 days old) by washer111 ()        

I imagine the Dishwasher we use, a DishDrawer would fall into similar water usage categories as an American machine - since if you use both drawers on a Heavy or Delicate cycle, you've used 5.3 gallons of water to accomplish that (Single wash and triple rinsing).

The cycle for Delicates is 60 minutes and cleans practically every, including dishes used to cook lasagne (which have been cooked in) acceptable. Using the longer, hotter cycles completely removes the need to clean filters, so we tend to mix between Heavy and Delicates as needed.
Bearing in mind, Delicate is a 122º wash and 140º rinse with a 700w heater.

This year, the DishDrawer will be 4 years old, and it hasn't produced bad results except where user error was the cause.

As for our washer, we're happy with our 2.5 year old Miele W5741.
It uses far less water than the washer that proceeded it (A Simpson/Electrolux plastic, POS machine), washes clothes far more gently, and produces far better results. The big thing here is that we can wash 4-5 loads when we have a big cleanup, and not run out of softened water like we used to with the TL machine. Saves having to regenerate the system an extra time, saving water, salt usage and salt being placed into the environment.

As Eugene (Frigilux) said, its more about choosing what you buy rather than just walking into a store and picking "XXX Dishwahser" or "YYY Clothes Washer." Make an informed decision, and I believe you won't have complaints.


Post# 808043 , Reply# 4   2/7/2015 at 12:18 (3,337 days old) by washerdude (Canada )        

When we got our new kenmore HE dishwasher, I was pretty skeptical I will say that much. But it does a great job. Lately, its been hovering at 1 hour and 57 minutes on normal with sani rinse enabled. We have a new HE front load, I'm really happy with its results, it cleans better then our old one in just under 45 minutes. But I do agree when a job can be done under a certain ammount of time which then goes on for hours and hours can get a little frustarating. Our new water saver toilets have been serving us well since they day they were installed and never clogged. Sure they have their ups and downs. I'm my self not a fan of HE top loaders, But at the end of the day, Im really happy with the HE performance overall.

Post# 808052 , Reply# 5   2/7/2015 at 13:37 (3,337 days old) by rp2813 (Sannazay)        
Dishwashers

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After frustrating experiences with the Thundering Thermador and the ISE Classic Supreme that replaced it, mainly due to their needs for phosphated detergent to get the job done (well, even phosphates couldn't help the Thermador most of the time), upon the recommendation from a highly knowledgeable source here on AW, I ended up with a late model Miele we came across at the local ReStore and I have never, ever looked back.

 

The Miele may take twice as long to process a load of dishes, but it is by far the most capable dishwasher I've ever owned or used.  I mean it.  And it does best when provided with phosphate-free detergent. 

 

I'm no longer fretting about being on my last box of phosphated Cascade.  I'm no longer annoyed by spotty glassware (with a dose of just 1 ml. of rinse aid by the Miele and water here is fairly hard) or not quite clean casserole dishes.   I can also hear the TV in the breakfast room or have a telephone conversation while standing right in front of the machine while it's running.  It's virtually silent.

 

I was a vintage KitchenAid die-hard for years.  Not anymore.  In the end, it's about clean dishes and not having to re-do them, and the Miele delivers.  Add to that the fact that we're in a severe drought here in California, and the Miele's low water use affords guilt-free washing, even with a not quite full load. 

 

Eugene is right.  Not everything about HE is bad.


Post# 808070 , Reply# 6   2/7/2015 at 16:03 (3,337 days old) by ea56 (Cotati, Calif.)        

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We just replaced our 10 year old Maytag MOL dishwasher last month with a GE GDF5204PDG and it is GREAT. The old Maytag never did clean very well and it took 135 mins for the normal cycle, no heated dry. The coffee mugs always had stains left in them and there was always at least 1 or 2 salad bowls that didn't get completely clean. The racks had already started to rust, just after it hit the 5 year mark and was out of warranty. I had been using Finish Quantum Power Ball tabs and Jet Dry. The new GE takes exactly the same 135 mins. for the normal cycle with temp boost., no heated dry The dishes are completely dry after about 3 mins with the door open after the cycle ends. The dishes are all sparkling clean with the same Finish Quantum Power Ball tabs, pots and pans too. And the new GE is very quiet too. When we first bought the house 20 years ago it had a BOL Whirlpool from 1991. It would complete the heavy cycle in about 80 to 90 mins. But it sounded like a freight train and the racks were all rusted by 2005. All in all I am very pleased with this new GE. But I am with you about the HE topload washers with an impleller. These are real POS! There isn't enough time to say just how disappointed I was with the Whirlpool Cabrio that we had for 15 long months.



This post was last edited 02/07/2015 at 18:41
Post# 808074 , Reply# 7   2/7/2015 at 16:18 (3,337 days old) by jerrod6 (Southeastern Pennsylvania)        
Henene4

Part of the problem might be that the USA DOES have totally different machines than you have.

We have dishwashers that use 105F water temps for their wash. How about yours, are they using this temp to clean a normal load?

We have dishwashers that only do 1 rinse after the wash.

We have dishwashers with 110 volt heaters that stop heating after a certain period of time so that they never reach the desired temperature. Our dishwashers cannot heat water from cold to hot, so we have to waste water by running the hot water tap at a sink close to the DW to prime them with hot water. How many Euro models act like this?

We have dishwashers that deliver a high temp wash that is 120F. This is high temp? You have this?

We have dishwashers with motors that deliver a water stream that looks like a lawn sprinkler. It's so bad that they have to stop then restart, several times during the program so that there is a sudden burst of water to spray the dishes. How many Eu models deliver this kind of water pressure?

We have different energy star requirements that limit the amount of water that can be used in any cycle. I've seen some videos of Eu washers rinsing with water up to the door. Here if the water gets that high the machine will drain it and end the cycle.


Poster RP2813 likes his dishwasher - except that it is a Euro model made by Miele, something that most people in the USA are not going to buy because they must be floated over the ocean increasing their cost, and then you cannot find just anyone to repair them so you must plan for that in advance or not be able to have one. We have Bosch, but they are Bosch made for and in the USA and so do not operate the same as the models that are available to you.

So I think the USA just might have different machines than you do.
Not saying what is good or bad, but they are different.


Post# 808078 , Reply# 8   2/7/2015 at 16:33 (3,337 days old) by washman (o)        
Simply put

another classic case of the goobermint sticking its ugly nose where it does not belong.

Because my algore approved GE cannot heat water high enough to properly dissolve my ubiquitous cascade paks, I have to turn up the water heater to the point that it is borderline scald danger.

Used to be I could do just fine with a box of Electrasol (Finish) for 2.79, 80 ounces worth, and it lasted a good while and cleaned everything.

Now I have to buy expensive cascade paks. The GE simply will not clean well with any other brand. I tried them all. And lo and behold, GE DOES recommend the Cascade paks.

Go figure.

Nearly 3 hours on the "normal" wash cycle and the dishes still come out wet as a sponge.

When I hear eco, green, environmentally friendly, the following thoughts enter:
*It won't clean as well.
*It will cost more money
*the appliance will not last as long as machines of yore.
*the appliance itself will certainly cost more than an old school machine.
*It will not be cost effective to repair

But it makes the greenies happy and they can all dance a jig while eating fig newtons and sipping tea while they discuss their next invasion of my privacy.

I could live with this, to a point, IF the demand came from the consumer OR someone out there built a better mousetrap. But to have arbitrary regulations laid down without any regard to the person who has to use these infernal things is just plain wrong, stupid, and intrusive.


Post# 808088 , Reply# 9   2/7/2015 at 17:13 (3,337 days old) by appnut (TX)        

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I have to admit there are a few times where I do wish the dishwasher was faster than the 2:05 it takes for a wash and heat4ed dry.  If I use Pots & Pans and Sani Rinse option, it's anywhere from 2:56 to 3:13.  But it uses less water than the GSD1200 did.  Water is for me expensive here and I live in a pretty arid area, even though there's a lake 5 minutes away that was set up by LBJ when he was in Congress in the 1940s.  The lake was finished in the mid 1950s.  I do wish I had the option of choosing whether it runs in the time amounts it currently does or to select an option whereby the motor speeds up considerably and throws water around like old machines.  98% I'm very pleased with my almost 8 year old Kenmore Elite's performance.  I watch my water consumption during the billing months of January through March because that's when my sewer and water rates are set for the year.  And trust me, 100 of usage can make a difference if I have to keep it at 2000 or less gallons a month for those 3 months.  I actually think my Duet front loader cleans far better than any old fashioned agitator washer and my clothes and other textiles are lasting longer.  And the bonus is it does not use dumb downed temperatures.  And I can keep my water heater at 120 degrees on the Whirlpool water heater on Smart Mode.  All except for items that are done on delicate, all cycles I use implement the supplemental heater to maintain or raise water temperatures.  My dish loads are always dirty enough that the higher performance intelligent settings are selected and higher wash temperatures are used.  All this does keep my operating costs down, which helps as I operate on monthly expenses. 


Post# 808091 , Reply# 10   2/7/2015 at 17:33 (3,337 days old) by henene4 (Heidenheim a.d. Brenz (Germany))        
@jerrod6

well, you don NOT have totally different machines.
Take Electrolux: Same interior (spray arms, racks, filter system and tank), simmilar capable inner parts (the heater is smaller, though the pump is about the exact same, just as well is the sensor set).
Miele is an almost 1-1 copy.
Whirlpool does differ, but main features are simmilar.
Samsung offers a free standing water wall DW here in Germany.
So to concretly answer your questions:
1. Yes. That is an temperature used on Eco cycles.
2. We have, as well. But as the storage-tank system comes up round here, the number of single rinsers reduced drasticly.
3. I'll give you that point. But being honest: I doubt that any modern DW uses purley timed heating, and to be more honest, I doubt you would get a lot of heating time outs on a modern machine. Simply because, well, you have maximum fills of 1 gallon, if ever.
4. I never saw a US DW without SaniRinse option. And Sanitation approval needs temperatures beyond 140°F. And on a purely enzyme based detergent with oxigen bleaching contens, 120°F is about the efficent bleaching temp range. And connected with 105° standard temp: Said, you don't have phosphates any more, you need to use enzymes, which, guess what, are ineffective at anything beyond 110°F.
5. We don't. But you don't have either for that reason. At least I do not belive you until you proof me that they ever start and stop and if they do, they do it to get water pressure. Ever heared of soaking - a verry efficent way of cleaning with enzymes!
6. Well, washers are a storry. But have ever seen an German LG? We use that much water. But NEVER on standard cycles. Only on certain cycles and load situations. And keep in mind your washers are 2-3 times bigger, and are usually loaded with about as much laundry. And what you think of is the over flow protection feature.


Post# 808097 , Reply# 11   2/7/2015 at 18:12 (3,337 days old) by jakeseacrest (Massachusetts)        

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Part of my frustration has to do with the lack of choices currently available for portable dishwashers. This year I definitely will need a new one sooner than later as the Maytag from 1998 is making a slow decline. If Maytag still had portables on the market I wouldn't have a problem, but all I have for new ones are Whirlpool and Kenmore. Neither of them appeal to me. They both have filters, low target wash temps, long wash times and ridiculous prices ($600+) for an essentially middle of the line model. Whirlpool,I believe, may have only one rinse after the main wash which has never appealed to the OCD side of me.

I do have a spare Kitchen Aid KDC60A that has a massive leak from underneath somewhere, but I'm not mechanically inclined nor do I want to spend money for an appliance repairman to fix a 30 year old machine.

Craigslist has been useless in my area lately too. Nothing even remotely good is jumping out.


Post# 808113 , Reply# 12   2/7/2015 at 20:23 (3,337 days old) by appnut (TX)        

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Michael, pretty slim pickins.  Ugh!!!  Sears even removed the advantage of nylon racks over the comparable whirlpool.   Can we help you keep an eye out for a used portable in good condition in your area? 


Post# 808119 , Reply# 13   2/7/2015 at 20:49 (3,337 days old) by pierreandreply4 (St-Bruno de montarville (province of quebec) canada)        
jakeseacrest

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i would start checkig sites like craiglist ebay and for estate sales in your area and this forum

www.automaticwasher.org/cgi-bin/T...

For a good vintage portable dishwasher brands like lady kenmore kitchenaid older maytag dishwashers to name a few and the advantage of some models you can convert from portable to built in credit to other members of aw who pictures i am posting as exemple



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Post# 808127 , Reply# 14   2/7/2015 at 22:23 (3,337 days old) by washer111 ()        

In my experience, the EU dishwasher in particular are heating the water far, far hotter than what i'm reading about here from the US-originating machines. 

Its due to the limitations in current for U.S. machines, in addition to the fact that the EnergyStar rating is based on electrical usage to heat the water, too, so if a machine was heating that water properly to around 140, it would get a slap on the wrist for doing so. 

 

Temperatures in the hot range should not affect modern detergents, and will certainly help on very greasy loads by dissolving/emulsifying much of the grease present. 

 

If you compared the energy usage on a regular *auto* cycle between a U.S. and E.U. style machine, I think the European model would use much more electricity, and probably much less water. They probably won't take nearly 3hrs either. 


Post# 808143 , Reply# 15   2/7/2015 at 23:44 (3,337 days old) by askolover (South of Nash Vegas, TN)        

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I've found several portables on CL here in the Nashville, TN area as well as Chattanooga, TN and Huntsville, AL.  I've considered finding one for my mother-in-law.  Seen a few Maytags with the same innards that my 17 year old one has and I cannot complain about its performance at all!


Post# 808155 , Reply# 16   2/8/2015 at 05:44 (3,336 days old) by henene4 (Heidenheim a.d. Brenz (Germany))        
washer111

Yeah, we have hotter cycles. But you do so as well. But for example, Mieles Eco-Cycle clocks in at 47°C, so round about 110-115°F. Electrolux lists its A+++ Eco cycles in Europe as 50°C, so a good 120°F. My brother owns an A++ model, and even this dosen't reach this temperarture properly as far as I tested.
And on the 140° topic: Just scroll to the verry bottom...
www.nsf.org/services/by-type/stan...
On Auto cycles: The BSH (Bosch and Siemens) Auto cycle clocks in at a start time of 2:45, with time ranges from 1h up to 3 1/2 depending on load and options, and usages from 0,6 to something like 1.5 kWh and water from 6 to I think 15l. The estimated annual consumption of the TOL Bosch DW in the US and the EU are about on par.
E-Lux estimates a maximum of 2 1/2 h without options, but times can be cut down to 40 minutes. Water goes 6-14l, and power consumption is about on par with Bosch. The US BestBuy dishwashers manual does indeed differ and estimates 2-3 1/2h of time with 3 to 7,4 gallons of water use. Doing some math, the water usage can get quite a bit higher, but may be just as low. And cycle times are indeed longer.


Post# 808219 , Reply# 17   2/8/2015 at 13:30 (3,336 days old) by mrb627 (Buford, GA)        
Miele

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My only complaint about my Miele dishwasher is it likes to remove the measurements from my Pyrex in very few washes.

Wish is didn't clean so well...

Malcolm


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Post# 808225 , Reply# 18   2/8/2015 at 13:45 (3,336 days old) by henene4 (Heidenheim a.d. Brenz (Germany))        
Well...

Malcolm, I am somehow sad about this. I don't know why, but I am just... baffeled.
But back to serious: Maybe your detergent contains to much bleach. Are these even labeled DW safe?


Post# 808229 , Reply# 19   2/8/2015 at 13:55 (3,336 days old) by logixx (Germany)        

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Henrik,

 

Electrolux dishwashers in Europe and the US might share similar parts... but the programming is pretty different.

 

I just browsed reviewed.com for some time and looked up their water consumption data. On the Normal cycle, some US dishwashers used only three gallons (11 liters) of water - yet, there were also quite a number of dishwashers that used around five gallons (19 liters) on the Energy Star wash cycle. Heavy cycles tend to start at seven gallons (26 liters). Now, 26 liters of water... I think our dishwashers used that much in the 80's. and don't forget that TOL Maytag units that guzzled 12.5 gallons (47 liters) on the Jet Clean heavy cycle.

 

Now, one should think that this amount of water would make the US dishwasher really fast - but this apparently is not the case. Two to three hours seem to be the norm, despite two to five times the water usage of European units.

 

And temperature is a whole different story altogether. Most manuals won't say a thing about wash temps during the cycle - only that Hi Temp or Boost options will raise the temp... whatever that means. If you have a look at the service manuals for the current Kenmore dishwashers - the ones with the 360 PowerWash - you will see that the target temp for all heated wash cycles is 105F (41C) and that there is a time-out for both the main wash and the final rinse heating step (40 to 60 minutes, depending on the cycle). Euro units, even on Eco, will generally heat to 50C (122F) - a temp that Whirlpool dishwashers and its spin-off brands only reach by selecting Hi Temp, which, by my definition, should reach 70C (158F) during a true high temp wash.

 

Therefore, I'll gladly keep my modern Euro dishwasher. If I select the speed option, which I usually do, the heaviest wash cycle takes 90 minutes and uses about 15 liters (four gallons). During that time, both the wash and the final rinse are heated to 70C (158F) and even the prewash and the two interim rinses are too hot to stick my fingers in the water. And, of course, each fill is cold water. I don't know any US dishwasher that can pull this off - even with a hot fill. The KitchenAids with the self-cleaning filter seem to be the closest as far as water consumption and cycle time goes. But they still have that tepid wash temp. My go-to cycles is even fast, uses even less water and can still clean black, burnt-on pasta from an enamel pot with so much water pressure that the rear-fed top rack is pushed out of the tub when I open the door too quickly - even though I had a cast iron pan in there.

 

Bottom line for me: American dryers - yay. American dishwashers - nay.


Post# 808239 , Reply# 20   2/8/2015 at 14:32 (3,336 days old) by askolover (South of Nash Vegas, TN)        
My old faithful

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Maytag washed a load last night, Normal cycle, 45 minutes from start to last drain out.  I never use dry cycle as the water is 140+ and just opening the door actually dries much better and faster than the fan only dry.  I cleaned my filter today (only found a couple pieces of string and a small piece of plastic) and did a rinse only just to make sure everything was back in working order, but I didn't have the lower rack in the machine...the pressure is still so strong it actually pushed past the door seal and dripped a little on the floor.  Put the bottom rack back in place so the center spray is diverted correctly and no more leak.  Pretty powerful for an almost 18 year-old machine.  I still prefer water force to clean my dishes.  If I wanted them sprinkled I'd just stick them outside in a rain storm, but that's just me.


Post# 808286 , Reply# 21   2/8/2015 at 19:58 (3,336 days old) by joeypete (Concord, NH)        

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I can't believe how long some of your washers run! Even on it's longest cycle, Heavy wash, my new Frigidaire only takes about 2hours to complete and cleans very very well. If I run it on normal it is generally done in 1.5 hours and that includes sani-rinse and heated dry. :-/

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Post# 808317 , Reply# 22   2/8/2015 at 21:06 (3,336 days old) by Frigilux (The Minnesota Prairie)        

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Malcolm--- I'm surprised at how quickly the printing on your Pyrex measuring cups is wearing off. I have some that are nearly 10 years old and the markings are only a bit faded compared to my newer ones. I cook a lot and mine go in the dishwasher several times a week.

Post# 808334 , Reply# 23   2/8/2015 at 21:48 (3,336 days old) by mark_wpduet (Lexington KY)        
Joeypete

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my new Maytag doesn't run NEARLY as long as some of these folks dishwashers either. I use auto clean/ tough scrub, hi-temp, no dry because I open the door when it's done and it totals about 1.5 hrs. It gets hot too.

My Pyrex markings are still fine. That's weird! Never seen that before.


Post# 808347 , Reply# 24   2/8/2015 at 22:13 (3,336 days old) by Maytagbear (N.E. Ohio)        
Decisions, decisions

We all make many decisions every day here in the industrialized world, most without a second (third, fourth) thought.


I want to know: When making an energy/environmental decision, do you think about your children? If you don't have children, do you consider your nieces, nephews, great-nieces and great-nephews??


I have two adult nieces, and my older niece and her husband have given me two great nephews. The older great-nephew was born in 2011, and the younger in December 2014.


I try to think about their world. My nieces' world and mine are essentially similar, but what will my great-nephews' world look like when they are my age (mid 50s?) Will the water be safe to drink? Will there be enough water? Will they be warm in the winter and cool in the summer? Will there be food?


If making sure my great-nephews' are safe and content means some inconvenience now, I'm for it!


Lawrence/Maytagbear


Post# 808370 , Reply# 25   2/9/2015 at 00:38 (3,336 days old) by norgeway (mocksville n c )        
As long

As I can get vintage...That is what I will use!!!the EPA can go jump and should be abolished,.....back when we let the coal smoke roll...we were the top producer of goods in the world.if I see smog..I see factories that are running, not gone to china.My appliances should be controlled by me, not the government.

Post# 808382 , Reply# 26   2/9/2015 at 05:20 (3,335 days old) by Frigilux (The Minnesota Prairie)        

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Hans, if you enjoy coal smoke and smog and the lung diseases/cancers that go with it, you'd love it in China! Another big draw: The lack of government regulation allows them to produce shoddy, unsafe goods and poisonous food for babies and animals. Frosting on the cake: Worker conditions are often poor! But their production is through the roof, by god.

If only we could abolish the EPA, FDA, and OSHA; then we'd be king of the hill again!


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This post was last edited 02/09/2015 at 05:49
Post# 808387 , Reply# 27   2/9/2015 at 06:27 (3,335 days old) by henene4 (Heidenheim a.d. Brenz (Germany))        

I have been to China in November. Stayed a week in Shanghai with my exchange student and his family, and I only saw his father twice. And his grandfather had to work EVERY DAY of the week.
And after 2 weeks total in China, I was out of breath no matter what I did. So, if you want to abolish all climate protection systems, just move to China or spend a month there. Than we can talk again.


Post# 808460 , Reply# 28   2/9/2015 at 15:06 (3,335 days old) by Rolls_rapide (.)        
Pyrex measuring scale fading

A possible answer to that is the colour red.

Apparently, red pigmentations are not very stable and liable to fade through time. I think my mum had a Pyrex jug with a yellow scale which lasted for decades.


Post# 808649 , Reply# 29   2/10/2015 at 14:22 (3,334 days old) by jerrod6 (Southeastern Pennsylvania)        

I have the Pyrex measuring cup that my mother bought in 1980. I wash it in a Miele DW even on the cheese cycle and the red lines are still there, so perhaps it is the quality of the red dye that is being used that has caused it fade over time. 1980 so thats about 35 years...maybe they aren't making red like they used to or my red is the toxic stuff.

Post# 808654 , Reply# 30   2/10/2015 at 15:19 (3,334 days old) by Rolls_rapide (.)        
"...maybe they aren't making red like they used to..

That could well be the answer - if experience of other 'modern' products is anything to go by.

For example: Cardboard isn't cardboard any more. It is now cheap flimsy paper!


Post# 808687 , Reply# 31   2/10/2015 at 20:05 (3,334 days old) by norgeway (mocksville n c )        
I dont want to live in China

I want to live in the USA of the 50s...hen we were the king of the hill!,,,You cant compete with all these regulations.

Post# 808692 , Reply# 32   2/10/2015 at 20:27 (3,334 days old) by norgeway (mocksville n c )        
But think..

EVERYONE makes shoddy goods..all you have to do is look at new appliances..all are flimsy and cheap ..compare say a 1960 or so GE Frigidaire or Westinghouse range with ANYTHING built today..there is no comparison.I really am not for more pollution, but I would love to see our factories running again, and be able to by American made jeans, shirts, sheets, and of course really good quality appliances,as I see it we cant compete with Chinas junk as long as the government has their finger in our affairs.

Post# 808702 , Reply# 33   2/10/2015 at 21:36 (3,334 days old) by pierreandreply4 (St-Bruno de montarville (province of quebec) canada)        

pierreandreply4's profile picture
Well if you look at the dryer in my avatar that was my grandmother old dryer it lasted her 40 years she could of chose to have it repaired and have a new heating element install back in 2009 year she replace her dryer but try finding good long lasting washers or dryers like the inglis whirlpool of 1970 and earlyer time change its like thiss dishwasher if you look at this model i can say that these where powerhorse when it came to dirty dishes as the wash arm could scrape food particle and the water coming out the wash arms was strong

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Post# 808763 , Reply# 34   2/11/2015 at 09:45 (3,333 days old) by DaveAMKrayoGuy (Oak Park, MI)        
Think this Thread should be called "Modern Dish-WASHING&

daveamkrayoguy's profile picture

Well, try deciding on TWO Brands of Dishwasher Detergent, FINISH and CASCADE (Three, counting a store's Private Brand)...!

 

Seems as though rather than giving you the best freedom of choice, a typical aisle will tell you WHAT TO BUY, & WHAT NOT TO BUY!... 'Cept for one train-wreck of an aisle that didn't seem to have anything 'cept making up my mind between two fragrances of Cascade tablets, Fresh Scent or Lemon, while the aisle mainly had liquids for washing dishes by hand....

 

Though my latest, the Finish Power-Ball tablets won, as I could get the most for the money!

 

I have nothing against pods, gel paks or tablets either... They are easy to measure & do get the dishes perfectly clean...  I'm happy w/ my built-in Maytag circa. 2009, too!

 

 

 

-- Dave


Post# 808776 , Reply# 35   2/11/2015 at 11:55 (3,333 days old) by Frigilux (The Minnesota Prairie)        

frigilux's profile picture
Hans-- I understand where you're coming from---and I certainly don't think you should move to China. It has been disheartening to see American manufacturing evaporate over the past 20 years. I would argue it has been due more to the pittance workers are paid in other parts of the world than to government regulation---although regulations certainly are at play in the equation.

My question is this: What regulations do we abolish? Worker safety? Product safety? Pollution? Or do we start paying our workers $3.00 an hour? Maybe we need to make it harder for companies to make a profit in the US if they outsource. Tax them less, perhaps? The number of huge corporations paying almost nothing in taxes is already shocking.

Unfortunately, until other countries decide to protect their workers and the environment and pay a living wage, we won't regain much of a foothold in manufacturing.


Post# 808798 , Reply# 36   2/11/2015 at 14:19 (3,333 days old) by askolover (South of Nash Vegas, TN)        
I think...

askolover's profile picture

if an American company moves its production overseas and eliminates American jobs, then they should be banned from selling the overseas made product in America!  Ya gotta hit 'em in the pocketbook to get their attention!


Post# 808801 , Reply# 37   2/11/2015 at 14:32 (3,333 days old) by norgeway (mocksville n c )        
I am very radical minded

On some things, we should ban all trade with any foreign country who commits human rights violations...such as China...in other words I support trade with Great Britain,Italy and Germany,Australia and New Zeeland...and of course Israel, and very few others, any country that supports or allows isis or other radical groups to operate in there country, would not get one bit of aid from us and their would be no buying from or selling to them...that would mean higher prices at the pump, but we could drill here for our own oil if the government would let us,Countrys like China who work people for nothing in terrible conditions would not get one dime of our aid or business....My really radical idea is..I could stop the terrorism...On 9-11, as soon as I found out what country was responsible...their capital city would be vaporized...no questions...the world would rant and rave, but you can bet other countries would think twice before letting terrorists operate there.

Post# 808803 , Reply# 38   2/11/2015 at 15:10 (3,333 days old) by pierreandreply4 (St-Bruno de montarville (province of quebec) canada)        
My 2 cent and toughs on the subject

pierreandreply4's profile picture
if you look at a country like canada take for example the speed queen laundry washers and dryers they sell under the speed queen name in the us but in canada they are sold under the huebsch name but tecnicly they are the same brand the only excption is that under the huebsch brand name and in canada province of quebec we do not get models like the awn542 the model that is avalable for canadien market is the zwn432 under the huebsch name and with the new lines of models for members that bough for example the rear control front load model me the plan washer is a top load for my next set brand huebsch speed queen but my point is that any us made washer model should be made in or country eather its canada or the us witch are close and with the exchange accord usa canada and europe make sure that brands like bosch mile to neame these 2 brands should be sold as internatinal brands even if they are manufactured in europe






Post# 809418 , Reply# 39   2/15/2015 at 15:02 (3,329 days old) by brainardcooper (Columbia, SC)        
New Dishwasher

I have the urge to buy a new dishwasher. I have always had Frigidaires for all of my daily use appliances. Does anyone have a suggestion which new model of Frigidaire Dishwashers is the best? My current one works well enough but I have noticed 2 things. First, if I put any dishes in the lower rack in front of the detergent dispenser(a pop up door) then all of the detergent will not get flushed out (even when all are placed in the rack correctly & aligned properly). Secondly, I was visiting family during the holidays and they kept putting dirty dishes in their dishwashers which would come out nice an clean, I have to "clean" my dishes before I wash them. If I tried to put dirty dishes in my current dishwasher they will come out with the food remnants still in place.

I have seen that some of the newer models of the Frigidaire Dishwasher have the "OrbitClean" Spray system or the "BladeSpray" Clean arm. Does anyone have experience with any of these? Or would the normal Stainless Steel arm be best?

Thank you for the input.


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Post# 809423 , Reply# 40   2/15/2015 at 15:26 (3,329 days old) by henene4 (Heidenheim a.d. Brenz (Germany))        

First, I guess it would be best if you open up a new thread. Just to get a clear topic seperation.
Second, the first 2 arms have a basicly same principle, and are pretty much simmilar except fpr the styling, which makes them look completly different.
The Frigidaire wash system is Electrolux based.
I personally only know about the E-Lux models and they seem pretty well performers with anything, but tend to longer cycle times. They are average in durability, but therefor are quite silent.


Post# 809432 , Reply# 41   2/15/2015 at 15:53 (3,329 days old) by logixx (Germany)        

logixx's profile picture

reviewed.com really liked this model a lot: Frigidaire Gallery FGID2474QF


Post# 809433 , Reply# 42   2/15/2015 at 16:03 (3,329 days old) by joeypete (Concord, NH)        

joeypete's profile picture
I have a new Frigidaire with the "Blade Spray" and it is AWESOME. I haven't had any issues at all, everything comes out super clean. My model is FGBD2445NB. It has a digital readout with the time remaining..I like that a lot. Also the interior is plastic but it's a speckled gray (medium tone). Pretty quiet too, like 54 db I think. I have an open living space and can watch TV easily with it running, the kitchen is attached to the living room.

I posted a comment up farther and there is a pic if you want to see.

I really recommend it. I paid around $400 for mine at the Home Depot.


Post# 809435 , Reply# 43   2/15/2015 at 16:11 (3,329 days old) by washman (o)        
for askolover and norgeway

First of all, while in principle I like your ideas, they will never get off the ground.

Reason being, you are outnumbered by a trillion to 1. Literally.


First you have Wall Street. It will ALWAYS influence financial and trade policy so as to benefit shareholders. Yours and my needs don't figure into the equation.

Second, you challenged that companies who outsource to China should be banned from selling here. That's fine, but let me ask you this...........WHO buys this crap from China?

Answer: WE DO!

I know it's hard to fathom but think about it. Consumer spending drives about 68% of economic activity in this country. That means, simply put, we choose winners and losers by voting with our feet and pocketbooks. And for years, we've operated under the notion that when in doubt, cheaper is better. And the lowest priced product usually winds up in the shopping cart. These are not my rules, but just how it is in the USA marketplace.

As as result, company X has a choice........try to appeal to the patriotism that has all but evaporated OR saddle up with the rest of the corporate snaggers and find a contract factory in China. Or rise losing shelf space at SprawlMart. What would YOU do?

Some years back, the SVP of Merchandising at my company addressed store's concerns about the increasing amount of imported products in our warehouses. Specifically, he addressed galvanized and black pipe fittings, nipples, elbows and the like. He noted that the imported products outsold the domestic sourced ones by a ratio of 15-1. He ended his discussion stating that while there was a lot of "demand" for USA sourced goods, there were declining numbers of "customers". Thus the reason for cheaper imported product.

Here's a typical discussion with a typical, brain dead, lazy, media fed American moron who cannot or will not think.

BDAM (brain dead American Moron):Ya know, it's really getting bad out there, people cannot find jobs, it's depressing. Why back in my day a guy could leave high school, marry Judy, start breeding kids, buy a station wagon, a house, and a small boat and live the good life. Now look at what has happened.

Me: Well since your time sir, globalization has demonstrated that both capital and intellect know of no national boundaries. And the countries we once bombed in doubya doubya 2 are now our competitors.

BDAM: Darn right. That's what I mean. All this stuff coming from China and god knows where. Back in my day, WE actually built stuff in this country. Now a good paying job is a cashier at Walmart.

ME: As we've evolved, we've moved from a manufacturing based economy to a service economy. Britain and France went through the same thing..........

BDAM: (interrupting)That's right! Friggin Walmart. I know someplace my taxes are covering those people that don't make enough to live on. How awful! They gotta do something, it's getting really bad out there.......

ME: Well it is for those who cling to the notion that only the US of A can make products.............

BDAM: (interrupting again).........well who says we have to buy stuff from China anyway? By golly, I know we can make it just as good, if not better here. And we could support good paying jobs IF we wanted to. It's George Bush's fault, yes, that's the problem!

ME: Well Barack Obama is president now sir.

BDAM: Yeah, I know. He's killing us, yes sir he is. By golly I never voted for that guy. They shoulda put that Mitt or Steve guy in there. It's really getting bad out there, yes sir.

ME: (clearing throat)By the way, I take it you are retired?

BDAM: Darn right! Got me a pension too! USW pension I might add. Best pension. We fought those guys tooth and nail but by golly we got it. Benefits too. Even the old lady is covered! I think the teamsters come close but we fought those corporate bastards for every dime. Yes sir, union is the way to go. Don't see too many union shops today do ya? I bet you wish you was in a union sonny!

ME: I work in IT and most of my field is non union. What isn't here is in India, usually Banglalore or Chennai.

BDAM: Huh? What you say? Are those places in like California or something? Or is that some new kind of restyraunt?

ME: Un no, those are two major IT outsourcing centers in the sub continent of India sir.

BDAM: (sounding doubtful) Oh.

ME: So you have a good pension yes?

BDAM: (proudly)Yes I do. Wuz a card carrying union member for 39 years kiddo. I got my benefits, paid for home, and a place on the lake. Yes sir, I still have my union card. Carry it too! Solidarity forever kiddo.

ME: By the way, where do you shop for groceries and household items?

BDAM: Why Walmart! Sams Club too!

ME: Is that a fact?

BDAM: Sure is. The got the best prices. Can't beat 'em either. My old lady does all the shopping and she says they have the lowest prices in town. So we get everything there. Even tires. Did you know that you can get tires for your automobile there sonny?

ME: Yes.

BDAM: Yes sir, we're careful with our money. Yes sir.

ME: You're talking about the same Walmart that you stated earlier does not pay their workers enough money right? That your taxes somehow subsidize right?

BDAM: (eyes glaze over).........coughs.......well you can't beat those prices.

ME: I bet you can't. But can you see the connection here?

BDAM: What connection? I'm not connected with anyone except the USW!

ME: (getting irritated)No, what I am saying is, how do you think Walmart, the very place you criticized earlier with the imported items from China and the low wages, undercuts the competition?

BDAM (now sporting the brain dead deer in headlights gaze, his mind blown with the nobody's home upstairs jaw dropping stare) Uh, gosh I don't really know.

ME: (places Marlboro gold cig in mouth. Pulls out USA made Zippo. Lights cig. Pulls smoke downstairs in one drag. Exhales, blowing smoke rings in the process. Stares at BDAM through the smoke.

I thought so. Turns and walks away, shaking head.


Post# 809441 , Reply# 44   2/15/2015 at 16:49 (3,329 days old) by brainardcooper (Columbia, SC)        
Thank you

Joeypete: I saw your earlier post & was responding to it. Your response really excites me about the decision. Although I don't have an open concept house I really want a quiet machine.

Logixx: Thank you for the review website. I read it & am excited as well. I really want to upgrade to a dishwasher with a stainless steel interior. So, it looks like the OrbitClean may be the way I go. I do like my current machine's Upper Rack Wash & Lower Rack Wash options, but I guess the Quick Wash option would do about the same (time wise).

Henene4: I appreciate the input regarding the difference between the 2 mechanisms. Since I only wash for myself I generally (90% of the time)run loads either while at work or at night so the increased time of a cycle is okay with me.


Thanks again.

bc


Post# 809454 , Reply# 45   2/15/2015 at 17:24 (3,329 days old) by henene4 (Heidenheim a.d. Brenz (Germany))        

So, washman, where do you buy your groceries? ;)

Post# 809456 , Reply# 46   2/15/2015 at 17:33 (3,329 days old) by washman (o)        
henne

Giant Eagle. It takes a Giant to make life simple.

Post# 809710 , Reply# 47   2/16/2015 at 21:58 (3,328 days old) by warmsecondrinse (Fort Lee, NJ)        

Jakeseacrest: I grew up next door to Ocean Spray. Where're you? I do sort of see your point. Recently I had to buy dishwasher detergent for the first time in years.... Where the f*ck did Electrasol go? I am not amused. There're 10 times the amount of products as when I last bought detergent but there's no Electrasol!

Frigilux: "Don't get me started on what I think of impeller-based top-load washers..." I'm with you 110%. In fact, being stuck with an impeller-based top-load washer that DID NOT WASH is how I wound up at aw.org to begin with.

Henene: An unfortunate fact of life in the U.S.A. is that when something is redesigned to be "more efficient" or "better for the environment", it rarely does the job as well as the product it replaced. This was true in the 1970's and '80's for cars. It was true in the 1990's for the refrigerant R-134 and for White-Out fluid. It was true for the transmission (not the car, just the transmission) of the SmartCar in the 2000's. It was/is definitely true for top-load washers and dishwashers today. Yes, newer versions are frequently better, but the fact remains that the first versions simply did not do the job.

I think most Americans would happily deal with longer cycle times for greater efficiency.... provided the clothes or dishes were properly cleaned. but alas, they are not.

For the record: I put down a $99 deposit on a Smart Car when it was first announced. Eventually I was able to take one for a test drive. I loved everything about it except for the transmission. It was clearly still in ALPHA testing, not even beta. The transmission was horrible beyond words.

Norgeway: I think you're a little extreme, but your point is valid nonetheless. For decades the U.S. has tried to reason with countries/groups/entities that have long since finished demonstrating that they cannot be reasoned with. The only thing they understand is: "If I strike at X country, X country will bomb my entire area into oblivion." The U.S. needs to stop pretending that such people do not exist in the world.

Washman: I have gone on ad nauseum in other threads about BDAM's. Their elevator simply doesn't go to the top floor and nothing we say or do can change that. We simply need to separate from them. I've gotten better with handling them as I've gotten older, but when they pull their crap of acting like they are the one's who know and I'm the one who's confused, I still tend to lose it. Separation is the only resolution.

As far as Chinese goods go, they offer the most bang for the buck. To borrow an example from another thread, my favorite underwear is Ergowear. Made in Chile, a pair of boxer briefs costs about $24.00 plus shipping and they last for years and years... #2 is Cockcon, made in China. A pair of boxer briefs costs about FOUR U.S. dollars, shipping included. #3 is N2N, made in the U.S. Boxer briefs cost $19.00 plus shipping and they don't hold up as well as Cockcon over time. Do you see the problem? Chinese goods are 3/4 as good as the first world products, yet cost just 1/4 as much, if that. That issue must be resolved first if one expects American consumers to avoid Chinese products.

I've ranted long enough...

Jim


Post# 809741 , Reply# 48   2/17/2015 at 02:50 (3,328 days old) by norgeway (mocksville n c )        
I AM extreme..

I usually rant and rave for a while and then calm down..LOL

Post# 809891 , Reply# 49   2/17/2015 at 23:58 (3,327 days old) by jakeseacrest (Massachusetts)        

jakeseacrest's profile picture
warmsecondrinse:

I'm in Lizzie Borden's old neighborhood lol


Post# 811788 , Reply# 50   3/1/2015 at 17:32 (3,315 days old) by warmsecondrinse (Fort Lee, NJ)        
@jakeseacrest

I was about 45 minutes to the northeast of you.

Jim


Post# 811812 , Reply# 51   3/1/2015 at 19:59 (3,315 days old) by washman (o)        
pierreandreply4

That's my vid! Thanks for posting it.

Post# 811827 , Reply# 52   3/1/2015 at 21:10 (3,315 days old) by pierreandreply4 (St-Bruno de montarville (province of quebec) canada)        

pierreandreply4's profile picture
your welcome washman and my pleasure

Post# 1196892 , Reply# 53   1/10/2024 at 18:04 by GELaundry4ever (Nacogdoches, TX, USA)        
modern dishwashers

modern dishwashers don't sound the same as older ones in my opinion. I wish Speed Queen made dishwashers with a modern twist while maintaining the classic wash system.


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