Thread Number: 58290
/ Tag: Modern Dishwashers
Modern Dishwashers |
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Post# 807999   2/7/2015 at 01:43 (3,338 days old) by jakeseacrest (Massachusetts)   |   | |
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Either I have turned into a cranky old man or I'm just a fed up consumer. When did using an automatic dishwasher in this day and age turn into complete frustration? In my day you went to the grocery store and bought Cascade, Electrasol, Palmolive, etc and there wasn't a million different varieties to choose from...you bought your favorite brand and that was it. No pods, tabs, different scents...you chose powder or gel. You went home and ran your dishwasher and in an hour you knew you had clean, dry, and sanitized dishes. Dishwashers used gallons of water and force to clean your families dishes and not a trickle that could take 4 hours.
I don't want the EPA in my kitchen telling me that an ingredient in my dishwasher detergent is promoting algae in lakes or that in the grand scheme of energy efficiency my new dishwasher is going to take days to wash. I don't want to have to wait until the sun and the moon align or to sacrifice an animal to the appliance gods to get dishes that don't have a powdery film. STAY OUT OF MY LIFE AND MY KITCHEN! |
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Post# 808005 , Reply# 1   2/7/2015 at 04:47 (3,337 days old) by Frigilux (The Minnesota Prairie)   |   | |
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You aren't alone in your frustration with all things HE and others will add their litany to this thread.
Overall, I've not found well-chosen HE appliances to be a problem. I love my extremely frugal front-loading washer (2010 Frigidaire) and dishwasher (2014 GE). Both do an excellent job of cleaning, albeit with longer cycle times than the vintage appliances I grew up with in the 1960s-70s. 1. Greater choices in dishwasher detergents: You're welcome to purchase the powder or gel you like. I prefer tabs/pacs for both laundry and dishes. It seems there are a dozen versions of every brand and I find the mania for specific scents in dishwasher detergents ridiculous; but since you know what you prefer, zero-in on that and ignore the rest. My new daily driver is Member's Mark Ultimate Clean Pacs, which is, refreshingly, available in only one version, LOL. 2. Cycle times: You're right; they're definitely longer than the 30-60 minute cycles on vintage machines. My 2014 GE has a Normal cycle time of 1 hour + 51 minutes with temp boost. This cleans even most pots/pans well. I use the Normal cycle without temp boost for most loads as my water heater is set at 140 degrees. That brings cycle time down to 1 hour + 15 minutes. Most machines also offer Light (49 minutes on mine) and Quick/Express (30 minutes) cycles that do a great job on less demanding loads. Having said that, when I BobLoad the GE with cookware containing baked/burned/fried-on soils and choose the Heavy Cycle + Pre-Soak + Sanitize options, the time jumps to 3 hours + 28 minutes. However, everything comes out completely clean. That wasn't the case with my 1985 TOL KitchenAid "hurricane-in-a-box" on its much shorter Pots/Pans cycle. 3. EPA: You have to take the good (Remember what the air looked like in large cities in 1963? I do.) with the bad (longer cycle times for washers/dishwashers). I live in a state with 10,000 lakes, so the alge issue is relevant. Both laundry and dishwasher detergent formulas have improved since the phosphate bans, and I have no major complaints with either of them. I have my own beefs with HE---don't get me started on what I think of impeller-based top-load washers---but quite honestly, I'm very happy with every energy/water-saving device (including toilets) in my house. This post was last edited 02/07/2015 at 05:29 |
Post# 808052 , Reply# 5   2/7/2015 at 13:37 (3,337 days old) by rp2813 (Sannazay)   |   | |
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After frustrating experiences with the Thundering Thermador and the ISE Classic Supreme that replaced it, mainly due to their needs for phosphated detergent to get the job done (well, even phosphates couldn't help the Thermador most of the time), upon the recommendation from a highly knowledgeable source here on AW, I ended up with a late model Miele we came across at the local ReStore and I have never, ever looked back.
The Miele may take twice as long to process a load of dishes, but it is by far the most capable dishwasher I've ever owned or used. I mean it. And it does best when provided with phosphate-free detergent.
I'm no longer fretting about being on my last box of phosphated Cascade. I'm no longer annoyed by spotty glassware (with a dose of just 1 ml. of rinse aid by the Miele and water here is fairly hard) or not quite clean casserole dishes. I can also hear the TV in the breakfast room or have a telephone conversation while standing right in front of the machine while it's running. It's virtually silent.
I was a vintage KitchenAid die-hard for years. Not anymore. In the end, it's about clean dishes and not having to re-do them, and the Miele delivers. Add to that the fact that we're in a severe drought here in California, and the Miele's low water use affords guilt-free washing, even with a not quite full load.
Eugene is right. Not everything about HE is bad. |
Post# 808070 , Reply# 6   2/7/2015 at 16:03 (3,337 days old) by ea56 (Cotati, Calif.)   |   | |
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We just replaced our 10 year old Maytag MOL dishwasher last month with a GE GDF5204PDG and it is GREAT. The old Maytag never did clean very well and it took 135 mins for the normal cycle, no heated dry. The coffee mugs always had stains left in them and there was always at least 1 or 2 salad bowls that didn't get completely clean. The racks had already started to rust, just after it hit the 5 year mark and was out of warranty. I had been using Finish Quantum Power Ball tabs and Jet Dry. The new GE takes exactly the same 135 mins. for the normal cycle with temp boost., no heated dry The dishes are completely dry after about 3 mins with the door open after the cycle ends. The dishes are all sparkling clean with the same Finish Quantum Power Ball tabs, pots and pans too. And the new GE is very quiet too. When we first bought the house 20 years ago it had a BOL Whirlpool from 1991. It would complete the heavy cycle in about 80 to 90 mins. But it sounded like a freight train and the racks were all rusted by 2005. All in all I am very pleased with this new GE. But I am with you about the HE topload washers with an impleller. These are real POS! There isn't enough time to say just how disappointed I was with the Whirlpool Cabrio that we had for 15 long months.
This post was last edited 02/07/2015 at 18:41 |
Post# 808088 , Reply# 9   2/7/2015 at 17:13 (3,337 days old) by appnut (TX)   |   | |
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I have to admit there are a few times where I do wish the dishwasher was faster than the 2:05 it takes for a wash and heat4ed dry. If I use Pots & Pans and Sani Rinse option, it's anywhere from 2:56 to 3:13. But it uses less water than the GSD1200 did. Water is for me expensive here and I live in a pretty arid area, even though there's a lake 5 minutes away that was set up by LBJ when he was in Congress in the 1940s. The lake was finished in the mid 1950s. I do wish I had the option of choosing whether it runs in the time amounts it currently does or to select an option whereby the motor speeds up considerably and throws water around like old machines. 98% I'm very pleased with my almost 8 year old Kenmore Elite's performance. I watch my water consumption during the billing months of January through March because that's when my sewer and water rates are set for the year. And trust me, 100 of usage can make a difference if I have to keep it at 2000 or less gallons a month for those 3 months. I actually think my Duet front loader cleans far better than any old fashioned agitator washer and my clothes and other textiles are lasting longer. And the bonus is it does not use dumb downed temperatures. And I can keep my water heater at 120 degrees on the Whirlpool water heater on Smart Mode. All except for items that are done on delicate, all cycles I use implement the supplemental heater to maintain or raise water temperatures. My dish loads are always dirty enough that the higher performance intelligent settings are selected and higher wash temperatures are used. All this does keep my operating costs down, which helps as I operate on monthly expenses. |
Post# 808097 , Reply# 11   2/7/2015 at 18:12 (3,337 days old) by jakeseacrest (Massachusetts)   |   | |
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Part of my frustration has to do with the lack of choices currently available for portable dishwashers. This year I definitely will need a new one sooner than later as the Maytag from 1998 is making a slow decline. If Maytag still had portables on the market I wouldn't have a problem, but all I have for new ones are Whirlpool and Kenmore. Neither of them appeal to me. They both have filters, low target wash temps, long wash times and ridiculous prices ($600+) for an essentially middle of the line model. Whirlpool,I believe, may have only one rinse after the main wash which has never appealed to the OCD side of me.
I do have a spare Kitchen Aid KDC60A that has a massive leak from underneath somewhere, but I'm not mechanically inclined nor do I want to spend money for an appliance repairman to fix a 30 year old machine. Craigslist has been useless in my area lately too. Nothing even remotely good is jumping out. |
Post# 808113 , Reply# 12   2/7/2015 at 20:23 (3,337 days old) by appnut (TX)   |   | |
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Post# 808119 , Reply# 13   2/7/2015 at 20:49 (3,337 days old) by pierreandreply4 (St-Bruno de montarville (province of quebec) canada)   |   | |
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i would start checkig sites like craiglist ebay and for estate sales in your area and this forum
www.automaticwasher.org/cgi-bin/T... For a good vintage portable dishwasher brands like lady kenmore kitchenaid older maytag dishwashers to name a few and the advantage of some models you can convert from portable to built in credit to other members of aw who pictures i am posting as exemple |
Post# 808143 , Reply# 15   2/7/2015 at 23:44 (3,337 days old) by askolover (South of Nash Vegas, TN)   |   | |
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Post# 808219 , Reply# 17   2/8/2015 at 13:30 (3,336 days old) by mrb627 (Buford, GA)   |   | |
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My only complaint about my Miele dishwasher is it likes to remove the measurements from my Pyrex in very few washes.
Wish is didn't clean so well... Malcolm
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Post# 808225 , Reply# 18   2/8/2015 at 13:45 (3,336 days old) by henene4 (Heidenheim a.d. Brenz (Germany))   |   | |
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Malcolm, I am somehow sad about this. I don't know why, but I am just... baffeled. But back to serious: Maybe your detergent contains to much bleach. Are these even labeled DW safe? |
Post# 808229 , Reply# 19   2/8/2015 at 13:55 (3,336 days old) by logixx (Germany)   |   | |
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Henrik,
Electrolux dishwashers in Europe and the US might share similar parts... but the programming is pretty different.
I just browsed reviewed.com for some time and looked up their water consumption data. On the Normal cycle, some US dishwashers used only three gallons (11 liters) of water - yet, there were also quite a number of dishwashers that used around five gallons (19 liters) on the Energy Star wash cycle. Heavy cycles tend to start at seven gallons (26 liters). Now, 26 liters of water... I think our dishwashers used that much in the 80's. and don't forget that TOL Maytag units that guzzled 12.5 gallons (47 liters) on the Jet Clean heavy cycle.
Now, one should think that this amount of water would make the US dishwasher really fast - but this apparently is not the case. Two to three hours seem to be the norm, despite two to five times the water usage of European units.
And temperature is a whole different story altogether. Most manuals won't say a thing about wash temps during the cycle - only that Hi Temp or Boost options will raise the temp... whatever that means. If you have a look at the service manuals for the current Kenmore dishwashers - the ones with the 360 PowerWash - you will see that the target temp for all heated wash cycles is 105F (41C) and that there is a time-out for both the main wash and the final rinse heating step (40 to 60 minutes, depending on the cycle). Euro units, even on Eco, will generally heat to 50C (122F) - a temp that Whirlpool dishwashers and its spin-off brands only reach by selecting Hi Temp, which, by my definition, should reach 70C (158F) during a true high temp wash.
Therefore, I'll gladly keep my modern Euro dishwasher. If I select the speed option, which I usually do, the heaviest wash cycle takes 90 minutes and uses about 15 liters (four gallons). During that time, both the wash and the final rinse are heated to 70C (158F) and even the prewash and the two interim rinses are too hot to stick my fingers in the water. And, of course, each fill is cold water. I don't know any US dishwasher that can pull this off - even with a hot fill. The KitchenAids with the self-cleaning filter seem to be the closest as far as water consumption and cycle time goes. But they still have that tepid wash temp. My go-to cycles is even fast, uses even less water and can still clean black, burnt-on pasta from an enamel pot with so much water pressure that the rear-fed top rack is pushed out of the tub when I open the door too quickly - even though I had a cast iron pan in there.
Bottom line for me: American dryers - yay. American dishwashers - nay. |
Post# 808239 , Reply# 20   2/8/2015 at 14:32 (3,336 days old) by askolover (South of Nash Vegas, TN)   |   | |
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Maytag washed a load last night, Normal cycle, 45 minutes from start to last drain out. I never use dry cycle as the water is 140+ and just opening the door actually dries much better and faster than the fan only dry. I cleaned my filter today (only found a couple pieces of string and a small piece of plastic) and did a rinse only just to make sure everything was back in working order, but I didn't have the lower rack in the machine...the pressure is still so strong it actually pushed past the door seal and dripped a little on the floor. Put the bottom rack back in place so the center spray is diverted correctly and no more leak. Pretty powerful for an almost 18 year-old machine. I still prefer water force to clean my dishes. If I wanted them sprinkled I'd just stick them outside in a rain storm, but that's just me. |
Post# 808286 , Reply# 21   2/8/2015 at 19:58 (3,336 days old) by joeypete (Concord, NH)   |   | |
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I can't believe how long some of your washers run! Even on it's longest cycle, Heavy wash, my new Frigidaire only takes about 2hours to complete and cleans very very well. If I run it on normal it is generally done in 1.5 hours and that includes sani-rinse and heated dry. :-/
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Post# 808317 , Reply# 22   2/8/2015 at 21:06 (3,336 days old) by Frigilux (The Minnesota Prairie)   |   | |
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Post# 808334 , Reply# 23   2/8/2015 at 21:48 (3,336 days old) by mark_wpduet (Lexington KY)   |   | |
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Post# 808382 , Reply# 26   2/9/2015 at 05:20 (3,335 days old) by Frigilux (The Minnesota Prairie)   |   | |
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Hans, if you enjoy coal smoke and smog and the lung diseases/cancers that go with it, you'd love it in China! Another big draw: The lack of government regulation allows them to produce shoddy, unsafe goods and poisonous food for babies and animals. Frosting on the cake: Worker conditions are often poor! But their production is through the roof, by god.
If only we could abolish the EPA, FDA, and OSHA; then we'd be king of the hill again! This post was last edited 02/09/2015 at 05:49 |
Post# 808687 , Reply# 31   2/10/2015 at 20:05 (3,334 days old) by norgeway (mocksville n c )   |   | |
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I want to live in the USA of the 50s...hen we were the king of the hill!,,,You cant compete with all these regulations. |
Post# 808702 , Reply# 33   2/10/2015 at 21:36 (3,334 days old) by pierreandreply4 (St-Bruno de montarville (province of quebec) canada)   |   | |
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Well if you look at the dryer in my avatar that was my grandmother old dryer it lasted her 40 years she could of chose to have it repaired and have a new heating element install back in 2009 year she replace her dryer but try finding good long lasting washers or dryers like the inglis whirlpool of 1970 and earlyer time change its like thiss dishwasher if you look at this model i can say that these where powerhorse when it came to dirty dishes as the wash arm could scrape food particle and the water coming out the wash arms was strong
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Post# 808763 , Reply# 34   2/11/2015 at 09:45 (3,333 days old) by DaveAMKrayoGuy (Oak Park, MI)   |   | |
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Well, try deciding on TWO Brands of Dishwasher Detergent, FINISH and CASCADE (Three, counting a store's Private Brand)...!
Seems as though rather than giving you the best freedom of choice, a typical aisle will tell you WHAT TO BUY, & WHAT NOT TO BUY!... 'Cept for one train-wreck of an aisle that didn't seem to have anything 'cept making up my mind between two fragrances of Cascade tablets, Fresh Scent or Lemon, while the aisle mainly had liquids for washing dishes by hand....
Though my latest, the Finish Power-Ball tablets won, as I could get the most for the money!
I have nothing against pods, gel paks or tablets either... They are easy to measure & do get the dishes perfectly clean... I'm happy w/ my built-in Maytag circa. 2009, too!
-- Dave |
Post# 808776 , Reply# 35   2/11/2015 at 11:55 (3,333 days old) by Frigilux (The Minnesota Prairie)   |   | |
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Hans-- I understand where you're coming from---and I certainly don't think you should move to China. It has been disheartening to see American manufacturing evaporate over the past 20 years. I would argue it has been due more to the pittance workers are paid in other parts of the world than to government regulation---although regulations certainly are at play in the equation.
My question is this: What regulations do we abolish? Worker safety? Product safety? Pollution? Or do we start paying our workers $3.00 an hour? Maybe we need to make it harder for companies to make a profit in the US if they outsource. Tax them less, perhaps? The number of huge corporations paying almost nothing in taxes is already shocking. Unfortunately, until other countries decide to protect their workers and the environment and pay a living wage, we won't regain much of a foothold in manufacturing. |
Post# 808798 , Reply# 36   2/11/2015 at 14:19 (3,333 days old) by askolover (South of Nash Vegas, TN)   |   | |
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Post# 808803 , Reply# 38   2/11/2015 at 15:10 (3,333 days old) by pierreandreply4 (St-Bruno de montarville (province of quebec) canada)   |   | |
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if you look at a country like canada take for example the speed queen laundry washers and dryers they sell under the speed queen name in the us but in canada they are sold under the huebsch name but tecnicly they are the same brand the only excption is that under the huebsch brand name and in canada province of quebec we do not get models like the awn542 the model that is avalable for canadien market is the zwn432 under the huebsch name and with the new lines of models for members that bough for example the rear control front load model me the plan washer is a top load for my next set brand huebsch speed queen but my point is that any us made washer model should be made in or country eather its canada or the us witch are close and with the exchange accord usa canada and europe make sure that brands like bosch mile to neame these 2 brands should be sold as internatinal brands even if they are manufactured in europe
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Post# 809432 , Reply# 41   2/15/2015 at 15:53 (3,329 days old) by logixx (Germany)   |   | |
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Post# 809433 , Reply# 42   2/15/2015 at 16:03 (3,329 days old) by joeypete (Concord, NH)   |   | |
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I have a new Frigidaire with the "Blade Spray" and it is AWESOME. I haven't had any issues at all, everything comes out super clean. My model is FGBD2445NB. It has a digital readout with the time remaining..I like that a lot. Also the interior is plastic but it's a speckled gray (medium tone). Pretty quiet too, like 54 db I think. I have an open living space and can watch TV easily with it running, the kitchen is attached to the living room.
I posted a comment up farther and there is a pic if you want to see. I really recommend it. I paid around $400 for mine at the Home Depot. |
Post# 809454 , Reply# 45   2/15/2015 at 17:24 (3,329 days old) by henene4 (Heidenheim a.d. Brenz (Germany))   |   | |
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So, washman, where do you buy your groceries? ;) |
Post# 809456 , Reply# 46   2/15/2015 at 17:33 (3,329 days old) by washman (o)   |   | |
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Giant Eagle. It takes a Giant to make life simple. |
Post# 809741 , Reply# 48   2/17/2015 at 02:50 (3,328 days old) by norgeway (mocksville n c )   |   | |
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I usually rant and rave for a while and then calm down..LOL |
Post# 809891 , Reply# 49   2/17/2015 at 23:58 (3,327 days old) by jakeseacrest (Massachusetts)   |   | |
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Post# 811788 , Reply# 50   3/1/2015 at 17:32 (3,315 days old) by warmsecondrinse (Fort Lee, NJ)   |   | |
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I was about 45 minutes to the northeast of you. Jim |
Post# 811812 , Reply# 51   3/1/2015 at 19:59 (3,315 days old) by washman (o)   |   | |
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That's my vid! Thanks for posting it. |
Post# 811827 , Reply# 52   3/1/2015 at 21:10 (3,315 days old) by pierreandreply4 (St-Bruno de montarville (province of quebec) canada)   |   | |
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