Thread Number: 60393  /  Tag: Vintage Dishwashers
Impulse KitchenAid KDS58 buy needs help!
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Post# 830459   7/2/2015 at 12:22 (3,192 days old) by Defoedude (Ferguson, MO)        

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Got this portable Superba at the Florissant Salvation Army a couple weeks ago, great cosmetic condition and clean underside, but I've had my fair share of "fun" with it from cleaning out the valves to causing my sprayer to dribble from underneath flooding my kitchen and basement, and now the lower corners are leaking. The tabs on my lower rack are fine so it must mean my lower door seal needs replacing (and the retainer strip since I cracked it trying to get it out). The Hobart numbers 115756 and 115757 gave me the Whirlpool part numbers 4161509 and 4161510 which apparently are discontinued. Anybody know of a substitute part number or have a donor part I could pay you for? Thanks!

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Post# 830531 , Reply# 1   7/2/2015 at 19:43 (3,192 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md)        
Leaking KD-18 DW

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When the machine is leaking is the water inside foaming?, if it is then the DW is fine and you need to solve the foaming issue.


Post# 830580 , Reply# 2   7/3/2015 at 09:46 (3,191 days old) by defoedude (Ferguson, MO)        

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If I remember correctly it wasn't - I was running empty cycles to test the other parts

Post# 830588 , Reply# 3   7/3/2015 at 10:51 (3,191 days old) by defoedude (Ferguson, MO)        

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SteveT - help please!

Post# 830596 , Reply# 4   7/3/2015 at 14:59 (3,191 days old) by Tomturbomatic (Beltsville, MD)        
Nice looking machine

That strip of gasket material across the front tub lip is not a seal. The water does not get that high. You might check to make sure that the float in the corner is moving freely. The inside looks like it has dried detergent which could have caused foaming if run empty. The machine should fill to just under the hub of the 4 way Hydrosweep for the two washes and less than that for the 2 prerinses and the 3 after rinses. It might be overfilling. Maybe the fill valve is sticking open. While Hobart put double fill valves in their builtin machines, the portable and convertible machines just had a single fill valve since they figured you would notice a leak if the machine was sitting in the middle of the floor exposed on all sides. Your picture of the underside of the machine does not show signs of leaking. Do you know how long it sat unused? Maybe a seal dried out and needed to be rehydrated (or needs replacing).

You should try running it again. Place a big piece of paper under the machine. Push Rinse and Hold. Listen for the first timer increment click after it starts filling. It SHOULD stop filling at that point. If it does not, stop it immediately and look inside to see if the water level is where it should be. The float should rise to stop the flow of water, but if the fill valve is sticking, it might not prevent overflowing. Then let it sit with the motor stopped and listen closely to see if you hear water dripping underneath the machine. After a few minutes, pull the paper from under the machine and see where the wet spot is. That might help you isolate the position of the leak.

You have the best dishwasher KitchenAid ever made. Don't give up on it.


Post# 830617 , Reply# 5   7/3/2015 at 18:41 (3,191 days old) by defoedude (Ferguson, MO)        

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I'll put the seal back in but what kind of glue/epoxy would work on repairing the retainer strip?

Post# 830628 , Reply# 6   7/3/2015 at 20:42 (3,191 days old) by beekeyknee (Columbia, MO)        

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Where did you get that piece? It looks like the evaporation channel but I always thought they were black. Is it made out of soft rubber? Also does your machine have these little black things in the front corners under the door. They are supposed to help stop leaking.

That looks like a really nice machine. You were lucky to find that. So far all I've found are 20's and up.


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This post was last edited 07/03/2015 at 22:10
Post# 830629 , Reply# 7   7/3/2015 at 20:52 (3,191 days old) by defoedude (Ferguson, MO)        

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Mine doesn't have those although the Service Guide said something about extra putty with the lower door baffle

Post# 830631 , Reply# 8   7/3/2015 at 21:04 (3,191 days old) by beekeyknee (Columbia, MO)        

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I believe when the machine stops filling the float should not have raised high enough to make the float switch click. After its biggest fill you can open the door, raise up on the float and listen for a click. If it has already clicked and you don't hear anything, I think that would be considered an overfill. I doubt that's your problem though.

KitchenAid gurus - Notice I said "I believe" and "I think" so don't crawl my frame if I'm wrong. A correction is fine, though.




This post was last edited 07/03/2015 at 21:47
Post# 830633 , Reply# 9   7/3/2015 at 21:24 (3,191 days old) by beekeyknee (Columbia, MO)        

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No, that putty that goes around the bottom of the door where it goes together and those black corner pieces are two different things. Those black corner pieces are held in with stainless steal clips. They are preformed and the clips hold them in place.

I fixed up a 21 that was dripping slightly at the corners and didn't have those pieces so I used some Sugru, formed it, put it place, closed and opened the door so it would form-fit the machine and then left the door open for a couple of days for it to dry. The porcelain has to be completely clean before you stick it on. I ran it once and it worked. Then I gave it to a friend, so I don't know how well it's going to work over the long haul. It seemed stuck on the tank pretty tight, so hopefully it will work well for him.


CLICK HERE TO GO TO beekeyknee's LINK


Post# 830636 , Reply# 10   7/3/2015 at 21:34 (3,191 days old) by beekeyknee (Columbia, MO)        

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The service manual for the KDS-20/60 shows them. I don't know about the 18/58. Maybe it didn't have those. Like I said, I've never had one (unfortunately). Someone else that knows more about the 18 will be able to tell you.

Post# 830639 , Reply# 11   7/3/2015 at 21:46 (3,191 days old) by defoedude (Ferguson, MO)        

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So far I put on some Loctite waterproof plastic/vinyl glue on the retainer clip cracks and gotta wait for that to cure then put the seal back in and hopefully it was just overfoaming - I do have the aerator piece out of my faucet adaptor would that contribute to anything?

Post# 830640 , Reply# 12   7/3/2015 at 22:06 (3,191 days old) by beekeyknee (Columbia, MO)        

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I don't believe so. The water pressure in the hose and at the faucet should be static. The valve controls the amount of water that is released into the machine and that's much slower than water running out of a sink faucet. If it were a valve problem I would suspect an under fill because of a dirty screen or an overflow because of a stuck valve, not a slight over fill.

Like Tom said, check the fill by looking at the screen under the hydrosweep to see how far up the water comes on it. I trust the machine is fairly level?


Post# 830692 , Reply# 13   7/4/2015 at 14:37 (3,190 days old) by TwinTubber (Toronto)        
Wonderful machine....

Defoedude! What a great score!!!
As a very recent KA recipient myself, I can feel your joy in this 'new' acquirement. Although mine was also in nearly mint condition, I also have a similar issue with that strip that runs under the door. But it's pretty mild and I'm hoping someone on here will advise (both) of us on ways to deal with it.
I would like to comment on Tomturbomatic's statement and hope you don't mind.
He stated:

"You have the best dishwasher KitchenAid ever made. Don't give up on it."

It seems to me that, this would definitely be the 'ulitmate' Hobart machine design in their pre-Whirlpool existence, but...it also seems, that between subtle design changes and stated cycle reconfigurations, that they were really trying to figure out how to get it "right" throughout the 18-20 series. The 19 seems to be the weakest one of them all at that. There were so many design and cycle changes between the three models that it makes me wonder what results they were trying to ultimately achieve.
I think, as has been mentioned by others, that the 18 is definitely the best of them all, but needs to have the full-sized upper spray arm from the 19-20 series WITH the constant-rinse from the 18.
Just my opinion.
Thanks for hearing me out. :)


Post# 830694 , Reply# 14   7/4/2015 at 14:48 (3,190 days old) by TwinTubber (Toronto)        
And may I ask?

I noticed in the 4th pic, something I have seen before in pre 19 series models.
There is one temperature sensor in the 18 series.
On mine, the 19, there are two on opposite sides and configured differently although opposite to each other.
What is the second one for in the 19 series compared to the previous models?


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Post# 830720 , Reply# 15   7/4/2015 at 20:59 (3,190 days old) by stevet (West Melbourne, FL)        
A little History Lesson Here..

Many people do believe that the 18 was the best machine that Hobart ever made and that is most likely because it combined the multiple cycles of the past models with the addition of the upper wash arm and the constant rinse. Whether it has the original arm or the longer arm of the later series, the second arm allowed more random loading capabilities. I once asked why they added the second arm and I was told it was in response to customer demand since nobody else had a one armed wonder and K/A was looking like it was falling behind the times with the competition. It was also explained to me that no matter what you do, there is only so much water a pump will pump and what any manufacturer was doing was splitting that capacity up between multiple arms.
I am sure many members who have the earlier one armed machines will tell you that under certain conditions, those machines would flip bowls over in the top rack. A testament to the power of the pump.That happens much less with machines with dual arms.
As far as the 19 series goes,mst will agree that it was not Hobart's best design, but the main reason given is usually the poor drying results. What Hobart attempted to do was to be the first manufacturer to have a more energy efficient machine which came out at the time when we were all lowering our thermostats at home to save on heating costs and they offered a machine that could work on incoming water of 120 degrees at the hot water heater instead of the usual 140-160 required by older machines and those still being made by others. And of course they took out the heated drying and figured if they heated the last rinse to 150 in all the full cycles, the residual heat and the pulsed air drying would do an adequate job of drying. Too bad it fell short more often than not. They also depended on the machine being installed in just perfect environments like on an inside kitchen wall and not an outside wall where the cold winter air could cool the area that the dishwasher was installed. Maybe if they added more insulation to the tank it might have worked better and maybe if they admitted that most people let the rinse dispenser go dry they would have kept the heated dry and left the option up to the customer.
So then they fixed it all with the 20 series.. basically the same cycles, but now you could decide if you wanted heated dry or not, but the machine was still designed to work with 120 degree water. Final rinse temp for the sani cycle was raised to 165 and it seemed to satisfy the consumers' demands for a return to what they were used to.
People still dog the 19's yet forget what we have to choose from in the marketplace.
We are at the mercy of electronic boards that think they know how to clean dishes and designs that need to run for hours just to be able to spray the dishes with a proper amount of water as required by NSF. When everyone had at least a 1/3 hp or 1/2 hp pump, the gallons per hours were more than adequate to meet any standard set for them in a reasonable amount of time.

And all those machines that lack any additional means of drying the dishes except to use condensing walls and residual heat..nobody complains that the dishes may not be dry at the end of a cycle..but that's okay because it is a European design so it is acceptable. For those of us in the know, we will select higher heat washing and perhaps a longer cycle because we know that the extra time and heat will clean better and result in dryer dishes.
We seem to have one set of standards for domestically produced machines and another for designs that originate overseas.

As was and is always the case with anything from Hobart..If you buy something made by Hobart, you always hold it to a higher standard and anything that seems amiss,seems to be more of a problem than the same problem may be in a lesser brand.

I think if you look at the satisfaction surveys done by testing magazines, you will find Whirlpool machines score higher in customer satisfaction than the identically designed Kitchenaids because people expect less from a Whirlpool than the higher priced Kitchenaid.





Post# 830721 , Reply# 16   7/4/2015 at 21:05 (3,190 days old) by stevet (West Melbourne, FL)        
double thermostats

The extra thermostat on the right in the tanks of the 19's and 20's was the preheat thermostat that registered when the tank water was heated to 140 degrees so it could begin the cycles. The sani thermostat and hi limit thermostat were on the left.
The 18 lacked this because it went right into the wash and it had only the 180 degree thermostat and hi limit thermostats on the left side.
The 21 and 22's and IIRC, the 23 had 3 thermostats as well. They relocated them to the underside of the tanks on those designs but they served the same purpose.


Post# 830747 , Reply# 17   7/5/2015 at 01:33 (3,190 days old) by beekeyknee (Columbia, MO)        

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Alex,

If you have anymore trouble with your machine feel free to email me and I'll see what I can do to help you out. It's in my profile.

Brian


Post# 830793 , Reply# 18   7/5/2015 at 08:45 (3,190 days old) by Tomturbomatic (Beltsville, MD)        

As soon as the 19 series came out, I ordered the parts to upgrade my 18 to the longer upper arm, but it definitely washed well with the shorter one; you just had to be careful of the back corners in both racks. The trouble with the 20 was that they lost the constant rinse and performance suffered if you did not remove every bit of non-soluble soil from the dishes before washing. That constant rinse was important. I remember how much it improved the performance in the last of the Frigidaire spray-tube machines.

Hobart's stupidity was in heating water for the first fill without circulation (static water heating) to pull the heat out of the water and partially heat the dishware and tank as well as get them wet. It was probably cheaper to build the timer that way, but stupid and a very inefficient use of the electricity that heated the water. That is why the 18 was the best. After that, they went crazy trying to save energy when, if you had hot water heated by gas, it was cheaper to use the water to heat the dishware and MUCH quicker, plus the water changes were frequent enough and not delayed by heating so that the water did not cool greatly in the pipes between changes. Whirlpool power clean design machines clean every bit as well or better with just 5 water changes instead of the 18's 7, but they did not buy into that stupid static water heating like KA. Because of the wash arm under the upper rack, I was going to buy a pre-power clean Whirlpool dishwasher before KA came out with the 18 series in 1977.


Post# 831055 , Reply# 19   7/6/2015 at 19:31 (3,188 days old) by Defoedude (Ferguson, MO)        

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Water is escaping from the corner of the evaporation channel and is it because the seal is not long enough? It does fill to where the overflow slightly bobs and I hear a click

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Post# 832596 , Reply# 20   7/17/2015 at 05:09 (3,178 days old) by beekeyknee (Columbia, MO)        

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Alex,
Sorry I haven't checked the thread for a long time. Try some closed cell weather strip in that corner so when the door closes it will smash against it and create a seal.


Post# 832605 , Reply# 21   7/17/2015 at 06:50 (3,178 days old) by gansky1 (Omaha, The Home of the TV Dinner!)        

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Alex, is the water dripping now a big flood or is a small amount? It sounds like the water level is correct in the tank for a full-charge fill. Remove the upper colored panel of the door and check to see if the detergent dispenser or rinse aid dispenser are leaking around their seals on the porcelain door. The other likely leaky culprit is the o-rings in the dispenser itself that seal the shafts of the covers.

Post# 832698 , Reply# 22   7/18/2015 at 08:22 (3,177 days old) by defoedude (Ferguson, MO)        

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Greg, it's small amounts although I ran it through another cycle and it was maybe a puddle the size of a coaster

Post# 832816 , Reply# 23   7/19/2015 at 08:22 (3,176 days old) by stevet (West Melbourne, FL)        
Not to scare you...But

Alex,
Take a look at the left corner of the tub and make sure that the seam has not opened up at all and may be where the leak is coming from. I have seen machines where there is a small separation in the weld and leaks can develop. If so, some waterproof epoxy will work fine on the outside of the tank.

Also, did you do as Greg suggested and remove the door panel to see if there are any leaks coming from those components?

Also, check the top of the door as well when the machine is running and see if any water is sneaking past the top door seal. It will run down the side of the door and can give you the leak or drips you have going on as well. That is an easy fix as well. The door latch just needs to be shimmed out to make it close tighter.

Keep us posted.
Steve


Post# 832863 , Reply# 24   7/19/2015 at 18:34 (3,175 days old) by appnut (TX)        

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Tom, WP always had water circulating while water was heating.  KA was still Hobart when the 19 series came out, as we all know.  I think after WP acquired KA, they didn't want to upset the apple cart too much, along with the limits of our electrical system and 120v power, ad continued the static water heating design until the 23 series.  I always thought that wa so stupid of KA to not have water circulating while water was also heating.  One of the reasons why I wouldn't buy a KA. 


Post# 844094 , Reply# 25   10/3/2015 at 13:50 (3,099 days old) by defoedude (Ferguson, MO)        

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I ran another cycle with the front panel off and the leaks are intermittent splashes coming from the hinge pin area - is it cause of the lower door seal not fully extending to the sides of the tank or am I needing a new overall tank gasket?

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Post# 845048 , Reply# 26   10/10/2015 at 00:35 (3,093 days old) by beekeyknee (Columbia, MO)        

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Alex,

I've got a 20 (60) and the bottom of the door looks pretty much the same. It has the galvanized strip across the front like yours and the brass colored channel with the black rubber strip. The only thing mine has on the bottom of the door between the porcelain and the inner door is a white plastic baffle and the little black things I showed you on up the thread. I fixed a 21 for Tom Gasko with strips of Sugru on the bottom front of the tank in the corners, like I explained above. It was dripping the tiniest amount; maybe because I worked on the water valve with a needle to let in a bit more water. Mine doesn't have that split blue channel like you show in post #1. That's all I know. Other KitchenAid folks will have to comment if they know. I haven't worked on an 18, but if you can make it work anyway you can w/o other parts, go for it.

B.


Post# 845074 , Reply# 27   10/10/2015 at 06:41 (3,093 days old) by Combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md)        
Water inlet valve repairs

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The reason inlet valves pass less water as they age is because the valve diaphragm wears out. It generally does little good to take the valves apart play with the flow washers clean the screens etc. you're just wasting your time it's better to replace the valve. These valves are still available for these KA DWs you will get much better and more consistent performance if you just replace the valve.

You can however Rebuild the inlet valve if you want to replace the valve diaphragm. Valve diaphragms are some times available from parts distributors you can also buy a less expensive washing machine in let valve and take the parts out of it to use for the dishwasher valve.


Post# 845085 , Reply# 28   10/10/2015 at 11:44 (3,092 days old) by defoedude (Ferguson, MO)        
I got it fixed up at last!

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I think I put the lower door seal strip in upside down - I looked at how it was laid out in the repair manual and it wasn't in the position as pictured, so I put it back in the correct way and put some auto/marine weatherstripping on the sides of the tank to not leave a gap/secure the lower seal in place - no more leaks!


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