I've got my bucket ready? Anybody's HANDS?!

-- Dave

that would use too many trees and have to be buried in a landfill or recycled or burned and thus pollute the air.   Catch 22

I love your post scrub cycle!! Send it on over !!

A good dishwasher (for me anyway) uses 10-12.5 gallons of water on the normal cycle and runs all the wash arms at the same time without varying motor speed or having the pump pull air or water with cavitation.

If you really want to save water do what commercial DW do - re-use the rinse water. Collect the rinse water in a sump, start the cycle and heat the water via an in sump heater. Wash through a pair of high pressure wash arms that blasts away dirt. Drain, then start the water inlet temperature booster. Open fill valve, run the water through the booster where it goes to 185*F then route this heated water through a second set of spray arms that fans the water jets spraying down all dishes and utensils. Water collects in the sump for the next cycle. If the sump needs a top off or is empty water valve is opened to fill the sump then a pressure switch satisfies to start the sump heater.

I know Jackson under-counter glassware DWs (among most others) use this scheme. It was another machine I assumed the wiring diagram would put a rapid advance Kitchen-Aid to shame but only to be surprised it was not far off from that of a Potscrubber. Literally 6 cammed micro switches cycled all the components in a 90 second cycle.

You need a 240 volt connection to do all this- which I think all homes should have a 240 volt dishwasher. Even nicer would be if all homes had a 415 volt 3 phase supply. 7,200 watts at 3 phase 415 pulls 10 amps. A single 14/3 home run would get the job done. 5 minute normal cycle, 15 minute potscrubber cycle, 10 minute forced air blower. Rinse cycle has steam curtaining from all 4 edges of the door as the shrieking sound of an espresso machine is heard. Kitchen lights shadowed by thick steam. 

Who has time to wait? 

I have a Miele G550 from 1975 that uses 58 litres / 15.3 US gallons on the normal and intensive cycles -- that's more than any of the cycles on my vintage American dishwashers, which are: KDS-18, WP PowerClean, JennAir reverse rack and GE2800 Potscrubber.

I have copies of "Which?" magazines (UK version of CR) from dishwasher tests in the late 70s and many European machines were using 70 to 80 litres / 18.5 to 21 US gallons per cycle.  Interestingly, a model that used half as much water actually cleaned better than the one using 21 US gallons.  

Starting in the early 1980s, European manufacturers started designing dishwashers that did not need as much water.  What's interesting is that "Which?" usually found that the German dishwashers cleaned better and used less water.  Whereas in the US I think a lot of manufacturers simply retained their designs and reprogrammed them to use less water or do fewer fills (this can be a problem and lead to inferior results).

I will not tolerate a dishwasher that does not produce excellent results and it would quickly get kicked to the kerb.  I love my vintage machines but a well-designed modern machine can clean just as well.

Mark

P.S. here is my Miele installed in my apartment when I lived in Spain:

Chet, I think you're right about the complexity.  Various technologies have been employed on certain European dishwashers to allow them to use less water and less energy.  This also applies to certain American machines, to a lesser extent.  I do appreciate the simplicity and brute force of my vintage machines.

Mark, ok now you and Europe are talking something real! 70-80 litters has me attention. Can you give me more details on this machine? How long is the normal wash? Do you have its cycle/wire sheet? How many HP/kw is the main motor? Does the machine have a fine filter and if so is it self cleaning? Does it do thermal holds? Pics of the inside? So much to learn. 

Miele has something going with your machine. Only thing I dislike is what appears to be a rapid advance timer and rotatory contact selector. Which usually means electrical complexity. The rest is promising however.

You're correct about US designs originally staying the same and using less water. Nearly everyone did that- GE made few changes to the pump but steadily used a lower the water charge every few years. Whirlpool did away with one final rinse on the dura-wash. On the Power-clean and similar makes the light wash cycle was re-named the normal cycle.

Mark this is EXACTLY why I love vintage machines. There is nothing to go wrong. Machines are a breeze to fix and trouble shoot. Everything is so straight forward and just makes so much more sense! You can repeat any part of a cycle as many times as you wish, no error codes, no weird failure mods, no surprises. No need to guess. Built in safety factors take care of all loads, conditions and unforeseen scenarios during engineering. A simple no nonsense scheme that works for anything and everything. 

Mark, take a look at this 11.4 gallon per cycle US dishwasher. Can you show me anything more simple, more beautiful or more resource maximizing than this? Absolutely breath taking. I'll wait for Europe to beat this! 

@Dadoes: What was the exact model that you had? Your observations are correct. GE routinely adjusted the water charge per fill and the number of rinses both post and pre main wash.

For example, 4 major post main wash rinse variants were as follows:

~1970-1977 3 post main wash rinses two with a 90 second fill middle rinse 60 second fill. 

~1978-1982 3 post main wash rinses each with equal fill times around 75 seconds.

~1983-1986 2 post main wash rinses each with either a 64 or 66 second fill.

~1987-1990 3 post main wash rinses 64 seconds for fills 5 and 7, fill number 6 45 seconds.  BOL models were the same except fill number 5 was 45 seconds and fills number 6 and 7 were 64 seconds. The 45 second fill was nothing more than a purge, it left the pump pulling air and the time between fill end and the drain solenoid activating was usually less than 60 seconds. 

1990s saw a gradual decline in fill times on each successive model ie a mid 90s Potscrubber was 42-53-53 seconds on the post main wash rinses.

Hotpoint went to two 66 second post main wash rinse fills in 1978 (11.4 gallons total cycle), and around roughly the mid to late 80s Hotpoint went to two pre main wash fills and 3 post main wash fills- one of the post main wash rinses had a reduced fill time giving 10.7 gallons total per complete cycle instead of the previous 11.4 gallons. Hotpoint reduced total water consumption again briefly before discontinuing porcelain tub production. GE on the other hand kept all 3 pre main wash fills when they added a 3rd post main wash rinse. The second in series pre main wash fill was reduced from 66 seconds down to 56 seconds. As such the total water consumption went from 11.4 to 12.1 gallons.

Note that this isn't all exhaustive and dates are all median approximates. GE had other variations in between these 4 common fill schemes and were phased in or out over models.    

Many of the changes were the result two major things 1) GE over the years redesigning their sump, boot, pump body and wash arm to hold less carry over water in between fills 2) restricting the flow rate out of the wash arm such that the machine could get away with a lower water charge without pulling in air.

Others appear to be the result of under estimating the effects of water reduction. For example, there were times when GE would come out with sets of models that used less water than priors, only to go back and increase the water consumption or where a cycle starts one or two years latter. A 3 steps forward one step back kind of deal.    

@Appnut: What year was your machine? Early to mid 80s GSD1200 machines had only 2 post main wash rinses. 

Hey Chet

If you'd like to see plenty of photos of my mighty Miele and get the answers to all those questions and more, check out the following thread.  

Scroll down to posts 100 and 105.

https://www.automaticwasher.org/cgi-bin/TD/TD-VIEWTHREAD.cgi?82361

Mark, thank you. I like what I see. That is a an impressive design and cycles are respectable.

Only thing I disagree with is the rapid advance timer system- this is some of the complexity I think of when I picture EU machines. The knob can be attached directly to the drum and the cycle selector knob and second timer motor eliminated. I also imagine there are multiple normal open thermostats and sub-interval circuits. Do you have the tech sheet or service manual to Miele? I'm waging a bet the internal electrical complexity is even greater than that of the GSD-1200 in Reply 53. A machine like this is a perfect candidate for simplification.

@Appnut: 1987 would definitely put your machine in the major cycle redesign years at 7 fills total for normal and Potscrubber. One pre main wash fill would definitely have been reduced and most likely one post main wash rinse fill was also significantly reduced.

GE did this because I assume they discovered the two fill 3.8 gallon total rinse cycle implemented in the new Permatuff design was not enough to rinse away residue like GE had assumed. So to fix this GE took two seconds away from every fill and 10 seconds from one prewash fill to create a 1 gallon purge in the post main wash rinse cycle without significantly increasing total water usage. This appeared so rushed and sudden that GE actually forgot to change their new detergent and rinse aid release times on tech sheet following immediately after. 

For example, GSD600D showing the correct detergent and rinse aid trip times (at 18 and 38 seconds) for a 6 fill cycle 11.4 gallon machine:

GSD600G 1987 12.1 gallon per cycle redesign showing the detergent and rinse aid times unchanged (18 and 38 seconds) even though these release times did not hold true in the real world.

In fact every tech sheet I saw printed right after the 86/87 cycle redesign regardless of model be it GSD500G, GSD600G, GSD940G, GSD1200 ect did not have their detergent and rinse times updated to reflect the new trip times. The trip cams however all had "7 fill cycle" embossed on them. 

I'd give almost anything to know what took place in GE and what was discussed internally in the most granular detail- and why Hotpoint took a different approach from GE to remedy the inadequate final rinse issue. Video tapes and audio recordings of each phone call, room, booth, lab and work station would be epic- to be a fly on the wall so to speak lol. It would be a blockbuster series for me.

I mean, what technical detail was behind engaging the heater just 10 seconds away from the drain valve opening on a purge only to continue running said heater during the drain period and 30 seconds after? Why not have the purge right after the main wash? Or why do it X way? Just so fascinating to think about what was going through people's heads when they were creating all this stuff and the decisions they made.   

Chet, yes it's true that my Miele has a rapid-advance timer......but it's 48 years old and still working, so we can't complain!

I don't have the tech sheet to hand, as the machine is currently in storage in the UK.  My KDS-18 also has a complex timer and my GE2800 and my JennAir are both electronic, so American machines can have complex timers/electronics too.  My WP PowerClean has a simple electromechanical timer, as did the Bosch dishwasher I grew up with in the UK.

They do get complex- to create the illusion of variety, choice and model superiority as to motivate customers into spending more per machine. All marketing.

A KDS-18 can achieve any cycle via a 8 single pole switches as can any vintage GE or Jenn-Air. There is no need for a rapid advance timer. With some very minor engineering that Miele could do the same.

Well, if you choose to ignore GE and Whirlpool's success in both rinse and hold and plate warmer without an RA...

Rinse and hold: Advance timer to the rinse portion of the cycle and push "heated dry off"

Plate warmer: Advance timer to designated plate warmer spot in the heated dry cycle- a hard resting detent can be placed in the timer making it harder for the consumer to skip over.

Don't want to waste energy running the heater during rinse and hold? Add a separate rinse and hold cycle to the timer as Whirlpool did. 

Fill 2 minutes

Wash 2 minutes

Drain 2 minutes

Off

This way Whirlpool could avoid the forced thermal hold in the regular rinse cycle.  

No wait, no limited versatility in either.

(Forgive me for all the pic I uploaded in this thread- only too visually describe what I'm thinking about)

...you expect to keep a dishwasher ! 15?20?30?

For the record, at least 30 years. 30-40 years was common for 80s Potscrubbers. Truly the best example of getting you're money's worth. 

Depends on the make and model. There are plenty of Potscrubbers being removed that work, and plenty more still in service, and most that made it 20-30 years where they've already been replaced. (Potscrubbers also had some of the lowest manufacturing defect rated as well) Still find homes for sale with Powercleans and Kitchen-aids around.

The largest number of pump problems was by far on mid 90s to mid 2000s Potscrubbers. Those were an absolute wreck. On the other hand the overwhelming majority of Potscrubbers built from 1982 to 1990 did not have pump problems. Seized motor bearings, detached motor fan, drain shaft leaking, main seal leaks, bad drain valve flappers, ect were uncommon when factored against the number of Potscrubbers that were in service. I will agree the steal macerator would universally break off after a few years of use- other than that these were very reliable machines that did their job without hiccup. I still wish they were around today made new.