Thread Number: 61670  /  Tag: Vintage Dishwashers
Suberba by Hobart problem
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Post# 843223   9/28/2015 at 13:23 (3,104 days old) by moonstation2000 ()        

My family bought a 1960 house last year, complete with 1960 appliances. They are all thermador complete with original brochures, and a Superba by Hobart KDS-17 dishwasher.

They are all stainless steel and in good shape, but of course my wife would love to rip them out and replace with new fancy ones.

Especially the dishwasher. She claims it doesn't do a good job. I cleaned out the screen under the rotating arm and it got better but she's still not thrilled.

Last night she told me that the dishwasher kept running, it wouldn't complete the cycle. I checked it out today, looks like the bottom of the dishwasher is full of water and won't drain. I assume that this is keeping the cycle from finishing?

I removed the drain valve and the pipe drained all of the water, so there is no blockage.

Are the likely culprits the drain valve or maybe the float?

I'd love to keep this dishwasher (and the other appliances) around as long as I can. I love the vintage looks and while the new stuff might look good I don't trust it to live very long.





Post# 843225 , Reply# 1   9/28/2015 at 13:34 (3,104 days old) by DADoES (TX, U.S. of A.)        

dadoes's profile picture
 
KDS-17 was produced from June 1971 through July 1974.


Post# 843235 , Reply# 2   9/28/2015 at 15:17 (3,104 days old) by barcoboy (Canada)        

barcoboy's profile picture
Sounds like it might be the drain valve. Normally when these dishwashers drain, you'll hear a loud snap as the valve opens. If you don't hear the snap, then it's possible that the valve isn't getting power from the timer, or the valve itself is defective.

Post# 843236 , Reply# 3   9/28/2015 at 15:20 (3,104 days old) by barcoboy (Canada)        

barcoboy's profile picture
Also, the float is a normally close switch that is wired in series with the inlet valve. It will only disconnect power to the inlet valve when the water level gets too high and opens the switch.

Post# 843240 , Reply# 4   9/28/2015 at 15:51 (3,104 days old) by toploader55 (Massachusetts Sand Bar, Cape Cod)        

toploader55's profile picture
If she's not thrilled with it, it' probably caused by improper loading.

Single armed KitchenAids have a very finicky and distinct loading pattern. They are very powerful machines as long as you understand how to load them.

You can place a large pot in the lower rack BUT... you cannot put anything directly above it in the Upper rack. The water has no way of cleaning that item. The lower rack is primarily for Plates and flat Items that will let the water shoot up to the upper rack.
If you look at some of the Vintage Ads for the KitchenAids from say 1957 though 1972 (Or the KD-10 through the KD-17 series machines) you will see that Large Pots, Mixing Bowls etc are always in the upper rack and the only thing you will see in the lower rack are Plates of all sizes and the Flatware Basket.

Once you/ she understands this and you get your draining problem settled, you might find it's the best cleaning Dishwasher that will fly though full cycle in under 1 hour. That's washed and dried.

Notice the Upper Rack. The Large Pot and Bowl. Your upper rack tilts and lowers to accommodate large items. The lower rack is all plates and platters. This allows the water to clean the upper rack.

Hope this helps.


Post# 843244 , Reply# 5   9/28/2015 at 16:06 (3,104 days old) by stevet (West Melbourne, FL)        
Thank you, Eddie and Barcoboy

As Eddie has just pointed out, Correct loading is the key to making sure everything gets clean in these machines.
As Barcoboy pointed out, you should hear a distinct sound when the drain valve opens to drain the machine. They did fail and at this point it would be the first thing to check since you already determined that the drain line is not clogged.
Hopefully, you didn't just install a new disposer and forget to knock out the plug for the dishwasher drain. Most common error when installing a disposer!.

Put the machine thru a Cancel/Drain cycle and you should hear the drain valve snapping into action as the timer advances.

One last thing.. Don't look for a float switch. There isn't one to be seen in the 17 and earlier series tanks. They used a pressure switch located under the tank.

Let's get the drain problem fixed first and go from there.



Post# 843247 , Reply# 6   9/28/2015 at 16:32 (3,104 days old) by DADoES (TX, U.S. of A.)        

dadoes's profile picture
 
Some sorts of bowls, pots/pans, and casseroles can be placed in the lower rack if they're reasonably shallow and stood up around the perimeter in a vertical orientation. Depending how space allots for a given load, a few such items can also be placed facing forward in the larger spaces between the plate tines.  My family had a KDI-17a for many years, which is the mid-line model with a lesser set of cycles but otherwise the same spray arm system.  We loaded the hell out of it and rarely had cleaning failures once we understand how to handle the loading patterns.


Post# 843249 , Reply# 7   9/28/2015 at 16:35 (3,104 days old) by moonstation2000 ()        

Wow, thanks for all the responses!

I really think most of her dislike is because it's old and she would like a new shiny model. She has said a few times that it hasn't washed well but it's always seemed fine to me. We already use the bottom for plates etc, and the top for glasses and bowls. We wash the pots and pans by hand.

I pulled out the drain valve and took it apart, but mechanically it looks fine. Can I check it electrically? If it is bad can I get another new one?



Post# 843269 , Reply# 8   9/28/2015 at 17:53 (3,104 days old) by stevet (West Melbourne, FL)        
Easy to test! Hard to find!

If the valve is out of the machine, just apply 120 volts to it and it should energize and pull the plunger up. Remove power and the plunger drops back down.
Assuming you have the turquoise colored valve, these were replaced with the white and Red valves that saw service on the 18 thru 20 series and were also the replacements for the blue valves in Hobart's commercial lines.
They are still available from Hobart brand new and are a bit pricey. You will have to drill some new holes to mount it and probably install a new drain hose from the pump to the valve but it should last a good long time and is also easy to operate by hand for troubleshooting purposes.

If your original works on the bench, then you will need to check that voltage is reaching the valve when the timer is calling for it to open and that is tested with either an electrical test meter set on AC volts or with a 120 volt test light.
Obviously, if that meter or light never shows any voltage being applied to the valve, you will have to go further and check for a broken wire(s) a loose connection etc. Do check all the connections under the machine to make sure they are tight and no wires are out of their spade connectors. Hobart was notorious back then for crappy connectors and they would always join multiple neutral wires together on one common connector which led to failures.
I am not being disloyal to the hand that still feeds me, but I lived thru it and have earned the right to tell it like it is! LOL


Post# 843346 , Reply# 9   9/29/2015 at 00:25 (3,103 days old) by moonstation2000 ()        

Well I pulled the cover back off and ran the drain cycle. The connections all looked fine, didn't see anything loose. I checked for 120 volts at the connections to the valve and it checked out fine. But no water drained, so I guess I have a bad valve.

I looked for a replacement on the Hobart site, but didn't find anything using the part number on the valve. I did find a replacement on RepairClinic. Any known difference in quality? Should I give Hobart a call?


Post# 843359 , Reply# 10   9/29/2015 at 01:51 (3,103 days old) by askolover (South of Nash Vegas, TN)        
ebay too

askolover's profile picture

much cheaper than repair clinic...supposed to be genuine Whirlpool authorized replacement part.   SteveT will be able to best advise you.



CLICK HERE TO GO TO askolover's LINK on eBay

Post# 843379 , Reply# 11   9/29/2015 at 05:23 (3,103 days old) by stevet (West Melbourne, FL)        
That's the one!

Yes, that is the newer style valve and at a great price! Go for it. And keep that classic running!

Post# 843423 , Reply# 12   9/29/2015 at 09:50 (3,103 days old) by moonstation2000 ()        

Fantastic! Just ordered it, you guys are the best! I hope to keep this puppy running for a long time, all new stuff these days seems to be built so flimsy and disposable.

Found a date on the valve of 1972, so I guess it's 43 years old already, I guess I'll forgive it for breaking..



Post# 843430 , Reply# 13   9/29/2015 at 11:05 (3,103 days old) by toploader55 (Massachusetts Sand Bar, Cape Cod)        

toploader55's profile picture

You are so kind and generous with your description of New Appliances.

 

For the most part, New Appliances suck. And are Crap !!!

 

Good Luck and I hope the machine runs forever !!!


Post# 844462 , Reply# 14   10/5/2015 at 21:54 (3,096 days old) by moonstation2000 ()        

I got the new valve today after too many days of having to wash dishes by hand! It was torture!

I installed it. The valve inlets and outlet are different than the original but no big deal.

I went to run the dishwasher and it stayed forever on the prewash cycle. So I manually hit the drain button and that works fine, the machine will drain properly and dry.

But it gets stuck on the prewash and will stay there. Been running for 2 hours now on prewash, I'm about to go shut it off.

Any ideas?




CLICK HERE TO GO TO moonstation2000's LINK


Post# 844468 , Reply# 15   10/5/2015 at 22:47 (3,096 days old) by barcoboy (Canada)        

barcoboy's profile picture
Good that the drain valve is working again, but not good that it is stuck on prewash. It sounds like one of your timer motors is not running. These timers have two motors-one which runs through the full cycle and advances the timer once every minute or so, and another to rapidly advance the timer to skip through certain parts of the cycle depending on which cycle is selected. If the rapid advance motor is working, pressing Cancel/Drain will not only drain the dishwasher, but also advance the timer to the end of the cycle (you'll hear it clicking, as well as see the cycle progress lights advancing). If this is happening, the rapid advance timer advances to the last timer increment before off, and then the regular run motor will advance the timer to off (at least it is this way on my KDS-58... maybe the 17 is different). This makes sure that it is reset at the 0 second mark ready for the start of the next cycle/increment (you should be able to hear the timer run motor running at this point before it advances the timer to the off position). Once in the off position, opening the door latch runs the rapid advance motor again to reset for the start of the next cycle. If the run motor doesn't run, then the timer should also get stuck at the last step of the dry cycle and never shut off (the blower/heating element won't be on in this increment, but the Dry indicator light will be), and because it doesn't get to the off position, the rapid advance reset would not occur, making it impossible to start a new cycle. Maybe something is preventing the run motor from advancing off of the first increment. You can try turning the timer dial manually a bit with a screwdriver... it should be marked on the timer which way to turn (I believe it is clockwise). Again, I don't have any experience with the 17 models, only my portable 18... others will be able to confirm/correct what I am saying.

Post# 844559 , Reply# 16   10/6/2015 at 18:42 (3,095 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md)        
KDS-17 DW Problems

combo52's profile picture

It sounds like your regular speed timer motor may have failed, be careful about trying to run the machine because if it stops with the drain valve energized it will burn out the new DV in a few minutes, KA used a cheap intermittent duty DV coil on their DWs and if you keep it energized for more than a few minutes it will burn out. This might be what ruined the orignal DV.


Post# 844572 , Reply# 17   10/6/2015 at 20:11 (3,095 days old) by moonstation2000 ()        

Tonight I had some time to mess around with the machine.

With it stuck on prewash the valve is never opening, it was just prewashing for ever and ever. Thankfully not much danger of burning it out then.

The control wheel? (not sure of the right name for this part but is is labelled Singer D-110057) responds to any of the settings that you can request with the buttons eg. sani cycle, full cycle, rinse hold etc. It will rotate the wheel to the correct starting spot. However once there the machine starts up and the wheel never revolves any further, so for the "full cycle" that we always use it gets stuck on the prewash and never advances any further.

I ran it through a full wash turning the control wheel with the knob and everything seemed to be fine. It's just not turning by itself.


Post# 844581 , Reply# 18   10/6/2015 at 21:23 (3,095 days old) by moonstation2000 ()        

Does this mean my run motor is shot and the rapid advance motor is doing its job?



Post# 844592 , Reply# 19   10/6/2015 at 22:15 (3,095 days old) by barcoboy (Canada)        

barcoboy's profile picture
Yes, it appears that the timer's run motor is not working. I'm not sure if you can change just that motor itself, or if you'll need to replace the entire timer.

Quick look on Ebay, and there is a used one listed for $39.99 w/ free shipping.




CLICK HERE TO GO TO barcoboy's LINK on eBay


Post# 844638 , Reply# 20   10/7/2015 at 07:03 (3,095 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md)        
Bad Timer motor

combo52's profile picture

Yes you can change just the timer motor if you can find it as the timer motors were generally not available as a separate part. Hobart used both Singer and Mallory timers on the KDS-17 DWs, the complete timer is interchangeable but if you want to change just the timer motor you need the correct one.

 

These timers were among the first of the ' quick disconnect ' timers and the Singer ones were particularly bad, But I have replaced motors on hundreds of these over the years with pretty good success by stealing the TMs form other timers.


Post# 844751 , Reply# 21   10/7/2015 at 22:13 (3,094 days old) by moonstation2000 ()        

Well I ordered the one listed above this morning. Unfortunately I have to wait another week before I get to have dishes washed for me again!

This washing by hand really stinks...

Thanks to everyone for all your help!


Post# 844756 , Reply# 22   10/7/2015 at 22:50 (3,094 days old) by barcoboy (Canada)        

barcoboy's profile picture
It will be worth the wait once you get it working! :-)

Post# 844771 , Reply# 23   10/8/2015 at 04:05 (3,094 days old) by toploader55 (Massachusetts Sand Bar, Cape Cod)        

toploader55's profile picture

Just a thought...

 

I don't know if you have the room, but picking up a second hand Portable is sometimes invaluable if you do Holiday entertaining or like to cook and bake a lot.

 

Although I am a total whack job and am single, I find that some days I can fill 2 dishwashers no problem. I do what I call prep day. I make soups and stews, bake, etc. and freeze or distribute amongst friends.

 

This way when and if you have the problem of "Machine Down", there is a back up to the rescue. 

 

They also can serve as an extra counter top of you happen to be short on Counter space like I am in a Galley Kitchen.

 

Just a thought if you hate to wash dishes.  Funny though... I love to scrub and shine pots and pans with Brillo, but washing plates, Glasses, Flatware, Mixing Bowls and Utensils... Not so much.

 


Post# 844788 , Reply# 24   10/8/2015 at 07:33 (3,094 days old) by jetcone (Schenectady-Home of Calrods,Monitor Tops,Toroid Transformers)        
Eddie

jetcone's profile picture

you are not a total whack job but you are single! You are a great chef! Made one of the best meals my mom & I ever ate ------30 years ago !!!

 

 

Now back to our regular broadcast --- I have to second everything said here today about your machine. Nothing today comes close to the build quality of that machine. They are well worth maintaining and repairing. My stepmom bought a TOL KitchenAid 10 years ago, tall tub all stainless steel- since then she has had to replace the motor pump assembly TWICE! So it is correct to say new $900 dishwashers last 5 years tops. And the even the stainless steel used today is not nearly as solid as what was used in your machine.  Put that in your pipe and smoke it.


Post# 844836 , Reply# 25   10/8/2015 at 13:04 (3,094 days old) by brib68 (Central Connecticut)        
Stick to your guns!

brib68's profile picture
When we moved into our house in late 2009, it had a KA dishwasher, older than yours, I'm sure. I could NOT figure out how to get the cycle to start. No idea if it was operator error, or a fixable mechanical problem. Unfortunately, it was years before I discovered this wonderful community and I saw it as an opportunity to buy a shiny new all-the-buttons and bells and whistles machine. So many layers of regret!!! Aside from wishing I'd done the right thing by the old brown beast, I also paid WAY too much (the price dropped by nearly half within 6 months), and have had my share of reliability issues with it. Even had to buy a new flatware basket on Amazon over the summer b/c the bottom was disintegrating and allowing the handles to drop through (fortunately, it blocked the rack from rolling back in, rather than blocking the spray arm, so I at least knew what the problem was before it caused a real problem).

I'm hoping that I can find a suitable vintage double wall oven to replace the modern GE micro/oven wall combo that was in the house when we bought it. It's probably just as well that I don't know what the original unit was. (The house built in '62, and the kitchen was probably re-done in the 70's, based on the age of the Jenn Air cooktop.)


Post# 844900 , Reply# 26   10/8/2015 at 23:24 (3,093 days old) by moonstation2000 ()        

Thanks for all the responses guys.

Neither of us are great cooks, or enthusiastic ones either. We try to cook healthy for us and the kids but I wouldn't say either of us has a great love for it. It also tough to find any free time with two little kids running around. I don't think we have the space for a spare washer but maybe I should stock up on some spare parts?

I'm glad to hear that the washer I have is a good one, I've heard from the neighbours that the prior owners of the house ate out all the time so I don't think the appliances got a lot of use for their age, I hope they all last.

So far they all work well except the cables on the upper oven door are broken and I assume I'll have to custom build (rig) something to work. Wife would love to replace rangetop with gas.

In other news I'm getting an old fridge, maybe 1960's? from the in-laws. Should be a good beer fridge. I'm swapping to LED bulbs in advance to make up for the power drain...


Post# 844904 , Reply# 27   10/8/2015 at 23:50 (3,093 days old) by rp2813 (Sannazay)        

rp2813's profile picture

I think we'd all love to see pix of everything the Mrs. loves to hate, including the beer fridge once it arrives.


Post# 845193 , Reply# 28   10/10/2015 at 22:31 (3,091 days old) by moonstation2000 ()        

How's this?

The last two pics are the meat grinder/food slicer built into the countertop, and the papertowel and tin foil dispenser built into the wall.

Btw the new part arrived today (earlier than expected), I installed it and we are back in business!! No more washing by hand.

Again, thanks to everyone for your help!!


  Photos...       <              >      Photo 1 of 6         View Full Size
Post# 845226 , Reply# 29   10/11/2015 at 02:03 (3,091 days old) by rp2813 (Sannazay)        

rp2813's profile picture

Thanks for the pix, and great news that the KA is fixed!  It fits right in with the other equipment, and I guarantee you that if a Thermador dishwasher had been installed originally, it wouldn't be there anymore.  The clients who had that kitchen built apparently knew that in those days, KA was the best machine money could buy.

 

Your Nutone takes more attachments than just a meat grinder and slicer.  I think the more common ones are the blender and mixer.  She might learn to like that thing once she finds out all that it can do.

 

 

 

 


Post# 845292 , Reply# 30   10/11/2015 at 12:31 (3,091 days old) by barcoboy (Canada)        

barcoboy's profile picture
Glad to hear that the dishwasher is running again!


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