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Thread Number: 62240
/ Tag: Vintage Dishwashers
The use of the Rinse and Hold cycle and the vintage dishwasher.... |
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Post# 848305 10/29/2015 at 08:24 (3,100 days old) by turquoisedude  (.) |
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 It's an odd coincidence but the last slew of vintage dishwashers that found their way into the kitchen (and garage...) in St-Liboire have a Rinse and Hold cycle. I do have 4 other machines in storage that also have the cycle selection, but to be honest, I never really used the cycle all that much. Well, until now, that is!
The current dishwashing load is divided between the '62 Kitchen Aid KDS54 and the '89 or '90 Maytag WU401 and both machines have the Rinse and Hold option. Now, I'd used the Rinse and Hold in the 'Tag a few times (just before I knew I was going to vanish down to Ogden and before our trip to Turkey in October). But when we got back, I had a partial load of casserole dishes that I decided to try washing in the KA so I decided to do a power rinse while the goop was still soft and hadn't dried on. The results were impressive - most of the food residue had been removed and when the Full Cycle was run a few days later, the casseroles came out nice and clean.
However, I have reservations about using the cycle and I'm not sure if I'm just being paranoid... My dishwashing habit is to fill the machine and then run it (beatings as a child for running a partial load and 'wasting all that money on electricity' still haunt me, what can I say...) so I can wind up with some pretty heavy dried on soils. BUT, I wonder if running a limited quantity of water, enriched with rinsed-off food soils, could be bad for a vintage dishwasher. One thing I do sans faute is to open the dishwasher door to allow steam and excess moisture to escape from the dishwasher after an R&H cycle has been run. Could the tub or pump mechanisms be harmed? I haven't used the machine seriously yet, but I wonder how the Plastisol tub of a GE Mobile Maid might react to being wet and not subjected to a full dry cycle...
I'm curious, what can I say??
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Post# 848307 , Reply# 1 10/29/2015 at 08:31 (3,100 days old) by moparwash (Pittsburgh,PA ) |
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If I have a small load of not too caked on food...I run the cycle twice...once as a 'wash'...then as a 'rinse'..then let the dishes air dry with the door open....it cleans well and is alot faster than a full cycle...wish my KA 23 series had the option to run 'dry' manually or had a plate warmer button!
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Post# 848321 , Reply# 2 10/29/2015 at 09:24 (3,100 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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Am here to tell you have never used R&H
Nor felt any need bothering with such cycle. Even my old portable Frigidaire was able to cope with several day old dishes (it can take two, three or more days for us to fill a DW).
With the Mobile Maid again have never bothered. Run the thing perhaps once every seven or so days (see above reason) and even on the "Normal" cycle everything comes out clean. All one does is what the owner's manual states, scrape the dishes well. If a load is badly soiled will get to the machine just as main wash cycle ends, unplug, reset the timer for another wash cycle, put the plug back in and that is that. Today's modern enzyme detergents cope remarkably well with set on foods. I'm talking about three or four day old bowls used for breakfast porridge. | ||
| Post# 848322 , Reply# 3 10/29/2015 at 09:33 (3,100 days old) by toploader55 (Massachusetts Sand Bar, Cape Cod) | ||
Rinse and Hold. Just keep repeating to yourself Paul... "I Love hearing my machines run on Full Cycle" and your fears from years ago will go away. LOL
Seriously, I used Rinse and Hold a few times. What I did find was the machine would get real stinky. The "Festering" temperature that gets created by the Hot Water against the Cold Chamber and dishes makes the chamber "Petri Dish Comparable". I used it a few times and when I unlatched the door 6-7 hours later the smell almost made me sick. From that point on, I'd rather have dried crud and run Soak and Scrub (insert grin) rather than have festering science projects in the racks and bowels of the machine. I would think in a larger family when the machine was going to be run 2-3-4 hours later might have a better chance. But for me to Rinse and Hold, and then open the machine 10 hours later just didn't work out.
Just my 25 cents worth. (Inflation ya know as opposed to 2 cents) | ||
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Post# 848350 , Reply# 4 10/29/2015 at 12:13 (3,100 days old) by DADoES (TX, U.S. of A.) |
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Post# 848372 , Reply# 5 10/29/2015 at 13:37 (3,100 days old) by Jetcone (Schenectady-Home of Calrods,Monitor Tops,Toroid Transformers) |
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Oh deer gawd | ||
| Post# 848407 , Reply# 6 10/29/2015 at 14:44 (3,100 days old) by joeypete (Concord, NH) | ||
I can honestly say growing up we never used Rinse and Hold. Probably because we ran the dishwasher nearly everyday, and I do now most times. I've used it with my Frigidaire, but with my current diet and cooking routine I run a Normal load everyday so haven't used it in a while. It does come in handy though!
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Post# 848426 , Reply# 7 10/29/2015 at 16:24 (3,100 days old) by kb0nes (Burnsville, MN) |
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Post# 848431 , Reply# 8 10/29/2015 at 16:42 (3,100 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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Isn't a R&H like a mechanized method of pre-rinsing the
That is exactly what it is and thus why never understood the purpose.
Why "rinse" down dishes inside the machine that will then sit in that moist and dark environment. Not to mention the bio-soup now fermenting in the sump as the food laden water sits. Worse to one is that unless the dishwasher does a major purge/cleanout prior to the first wash you are cleaning dishes in that mucky water. | ||
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Post# 848432 , Reply# 9 10/29/2015 at 16:43 (3,100 days old) by whirlykenmore78 (Prior Lake MN (GMT-0500 CDT.)) |
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Yes Phil:
That is right. R&H is designed to remove most of the gross soil from a partial load of dishes and hold them in an environment that won't dry remaining food on. IIRC the theory was if you ran it and then added dishes and did a full wash after the NEXT meal you wouldn't be dealing with dried on food. Of course if you have a good DW and use good detergent some food dried onto a plate is no problem anyway. This is why I see the cycle as somewhat useless unless something is spilled in the dishwasher and it will not be run soon or a soil would become too hardened before full cycle time. Of course I would just soak something that dirty in the sink.
WK78 | ||
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Post# 848435 , Reply# 10 10/29/2015 at 17:07 (3,100 days old) by DADoES (TX, U.S. of A.) |
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| Post# 848438 , Reply# 11 10/29/2015 at 17:21 (3,100 days old) by joeypete (Concord, NH) | ||
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| Post# 848440 , Reply# 12 10/29/2015 at 17:33 (3,100 days old) by toploader55 (Massachusetts Sand Bar, Cape Cod) | ||
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I remember our 1966 MobileMaid with the 4 cycles, the Rinse and Hold was 2 Rinses.
That's an awful lot of water to hold dishes for the next "Daily Loads".
Even living by myself I generally manage to accumulate enough wares to run my machine daily. Between the leftover containers, Breakfast, Pots and Pans for making dinner there always seems to be enough to warrant a full run either at night or right after breakfast the next day.
I do NOT prerinse anything. This may sound strange but I let the load sit over night with the door latched, then run it the next morning and everything comes out spotless. I use Cascade Complete with Dawn Powder. Both Cups. For me, nothing cleans better than powder. | ||
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Post# 848444 , Reply# 13 10/29/2015 at 17:42 (3,100 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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Using detergent for R&H
Here is the thing; automatic dishwashing detergents are pretty caustic things on average. That is countered by the supposed grease, soils, oils and muck found on dishes. Where that is absent and or detergent is dosed to levels in excess of requirements it will find something else to work upon; namely your dishes and glassware. Indeed one of the chief causes of etching is using too much detergent.
This is the reason why we are advised not to pre-rinse dishes except in extreme cases, burnt on foods for example. Perhaps can see "why" for R&H back in the days before enzyme dishwasher detergents. You wanted to remove protein based soils (eggs, milk, that sort of thing) from breakfast dishes. This because when one ran the main wash later that day the hot (140F or above from taps) could and likely did "cook" such soils onto dishes. However modern detergents especially those with enzymes have largely solved that problem. | ||
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Post# 848450 , Reply# 14 10/29/2015 at 18:07 (3,100 days old) by appnut (TX) |
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 There's a reason Toggles called it Rinse & Mold. I'm the mirrored image to Jon Charles--but I have probably used R&H a total of 20 times in 35 years of living on my own. And when I did execute the usage of the cycle, the smell arrives eventually. The GSD1200 was the only one of my dishwashers that had two water exchanges in the R&H. I may not run my dishwasher for anywhere from 4-7 days and it all just sits there until it runs full. I wasn't beaten, but was nicely yelled at for running not full washer or dishwasher loads. Hence my BobLoads. | ||
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Post# 848510 , Reply# 16 10/30/2015 at 06:42 (3,099 days old) by kimball455 (Cape May, NJ) |
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The only time I use rinse/hold is if I am baking and have several batter covered bowls etc. It is easier to use the dishwasher for the rinse that by hand in the sink. Other than that, no. I just scrape the the dishes under running water and everything does down the disposal and the dishes in to the dishwasher. Most of the time I use autowash with excellent results.
Harry | ||
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Post# 848686 , Reply# 17 10/30/2015 at 16:47 (3,099 days old) by neptunebob (Pittsburgh, PA) |
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Post# 848779 , Reply# 18 10/31/2015 at 02:23 (3,098 days old) by askolover (South of Nash Vegas, TN) |
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 Mother used to use it once in a blue moon if something was particularly smelly in there, like cheese dip...but in general we always ran full cycle every single day. I've used it a time or two myself, but have the same logic about detergents...especially the tablet variety...I personally think they are too strong for softened water anyway, and then add to that a load of already rinsed dishes...etching galore! I just can't seem to get Tony to understand that...and he puts his Princess House crystal in there! Oh well...if it gets etched I won't be blamed! | ||
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Post# 851263 , Reply# 19 11/12/2015 at 19:01 (3,086 days old) by turquoisedude (.) |
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So, after reflecting on the comments shared plus a personal recollection of how I recalled using the Rinse and Hold cycle on that much-storied Viking top-load dishwasher of my youth, I decided it was time for 'Turquoisedude's Totally Unscientific Rinse and Hold Torture Test'!
So, what I recall doing with the ol' Viking was to use the Rinse and Hold as a pre-wash (sometimes with detergent, sometimes without) to soften up the gunge on the dishes before moving on to a regular cycle. My tests here were doing a similar test, one in the Maytag WU401 and one in the KitchenAid KDS54.
The Maytag load was done last week, the KA load was done this evening. In both cases, I tried to assemble a load of reasonably dirty dishes, glassware, and cutlery PLUS a couple of baked-and-or-dried on soils.
Here's the Maytag load - it was pretty well filled to capacity. The 'torture test' items here are the Corning pie plate and that big Corning casserole that played host to macaroni and cheese (the baking on was graciously provided by the '62 Flair).
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Post# 851266 , Reply# 20 11/12/2015 at 19:08 (3,086 days old) by turquoisedude (.) |
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Here's what the KitchenAid got to deal with: a less-than-full load of dishes, glasses, and cutlery. But there were also three 'torture test items': a pan used to cook rice that has been sitting since yesterday, a pyrex baking dish that was used for a lasagne, and a glass pan used to bake a lemon chiffon cake (therefore ungreased!).
The Kitchen was loaded as would be recommended by the folks at Hobart would've back in '62 - dishes on the lower rack, pots and pans on the upper rack.
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Post# 851271 , Reply# 21 11/12/2015 at 19:15 (3,086 days old) by turquoisedude (.) |
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On the Maytag, the Rinse and Hold was run with a dose of detergent followed by a run of the Pots and Pans cycle. So, the dishes in that machine got the following treatment: two detergent pre-washes, a pre-rinse, main wash with detergent, and a triple rinse.
BTW, the detergent cup in main wash had to be manually tripped.... That's starting to get old...
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Post# 851277 , Reply# 22 11/12/2015 at 19:21 (3,086 days old) by turquoisedude (.) |
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For the KitchenAid load, I used Rinse and Hold with detergent, then ran a Full Cycle with detergent in the Main Wash only. The KA also gave the test load a triple-rinse.
So... we're down by one detergent pre-wash here. Let's see how THAT works. | ||
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Post# 851278 , Reply# 23 11/12/2015 at 19:23 (3,086 days old) by turquoisedude (.) |
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Maytag results time!
Dishes look great, glasses too. Cutlery is sparkling. BUT that macaroni and cheese is still clinging to the Corningware casserole... FAIL!
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Post# 851279 , Reply# 24 11/12/2015 at 19:25 (3,086 days old) by turquoisedude (.) |
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And the KitchenAid?
The dishes, glasses and cutlery were fine. The rice pan did great - PASS. The lasagne pan was not perfect but could still squeak by as a PASS. But, oy, the cake pan? Epic FAIL... | ||
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Post# 851281 , Reply# 25 11/12/2015 at 19:29 (3,086 days old) by turquoisedude (.) |
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So now what....
I'm kinda wondering if I should be thinking about replacement dishwashers now... I know the 'Tag is going to have to be taken out when the new floor is put in; I am not sure what should go in it's place. Maybe I should look for a KA 18 series OR perhaps the low-mileage Viking (Westinghouse) built-in may get a chance to prove itself. Somehow I don't think the '58 Spin-Tube's gonna cut it, alas!
Oh what to do?? | ||
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Post# 851294 , Reply# 26 11/12/2015 at 20:23 (3,086 days old) by appnut (TX) |
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I'd say both qualified as moderate BobLoads. I'm surprised the rice pan did as well as it did. A neighbor's brand new KDS16 got subjected by me to a much more intense rice sauce pan in the top rack on Heavy Soil and it failed miserably compared to similar test of our 1968 Waste King across the street. Hence my disdain for KitchenAids--between the 1-level wash loading contraints and limitations as well as not cleaning as well as the Waste King. I bet the corning casserole in the Maytag would have come out perfect if you'd had a model WU704 with thermal hold water heat boost during main wash. | ||
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Post# 851301 , Reply# 27 11/12/2015 at 21:15 (3,086 days old) by countryguy (Astorville, ON, Canada) |
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Post# 851347 , Reply# 28 11/13/2015 at 06:05 (3,085 days old) by turquoisedude (.) |
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Modern Cascade. We are on a well out here in the woods of St-Liboire but we had a water treatment system put in before we made it to 1 month in the new house (the water was mega-hard and had an iron content). That being said, I fear the Maytag, which was in the house, has suffered from scale accumulation over its lifetime...
I'm curious to try a test with the KA but putting the gungy stuff on the bottom rack! | ||
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Post# 851364 , Reply# 29 11/13/2015 at 08:17 (3,085 days old) by countryguy (Astorville, ON, Canada) |
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I am on a well system also but the water is not hard...just suffers from a sulphur odour at times. I had a WU704 and never had a problem with it not getting everything clean...including the kind of dishes you tested it with. I've never used Cascade...always used Electrasol (now Finish). I've had a Miele for about 18 months now and I use the Miele detergent....works great. Have you cleaned the holes out on all the wash arms? The holes get easily clogged because they are so tiny to give the extra force. Try running some vinegar or lime away through the machine.
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| Post# 851385 , Reply# 30 11/13/2015 at 10:36 (3,085 days old) by delaneymeegan (Midwest) | ||
 Given that I resigned from DW usage, ending with my TOL Frigidaire, back in 2002, I'm probably least qualified to comment, but.... I still love the DWs, especially if they're harvest gold. They just run better. That's probably why I resigned the Frigidaire. It was bisque. But seriously, I remember way back.... using the R&H cycle with some dishes that had spaghetti laden dishes. It was a GE white plastic tub model from the 80s. Want to guess what that tub looked like after the cycle? It's like all it does is take the dirt from the dishes and spread it all over the inside of everything inside. So just for fun, for $20, I got a Brand New GE GDF510PGD4BB. Why only $20? It got it into a fight in the warehouse and the front panel is dented. I was surprised though, Apparently no R&H cycle. R&H was ubiquitous. It was always included unless it was the bol. If I keep this dw, I'll have to get some primer and h.g. or avocado spray paint. From what I've heard these are not worth the paint. | ||
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Post# 851728 , Reply# 32 11/15/2015 at 07:37 (3,083 days old) by jetcone (Schenectady-Home of Calrods,Monitor Tops,Toroid Transformers) |
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Paul I think the poly screen in your Maytag might be micro clogged with calcium, its vital that all at the water get through the screen to the impellers as Maytags system depended on total water supply to keep the pressure up through the smaller holes on the impellers.
I'd give them a soak in CLR and then reinstall and run. I just used my "NEW" DU476 Jenn Air on Conserva wash with a full load and got sparkling results with RnH all day before the nightly run! However I do have a completely rebuilt KDS-21 if you are interested - you know my number... | ||
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