Thread Number: 6228
Water in the Window
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Post# 126977   5/6/2006 at 10:25 (6,536 days old) by mixfinder ()        

I have used Maytag Neptunes, extensively, in the laundry of a condo where I live. I have been very impressed with their performance. Just playing around and seeing how little water enters the machine, I have stood over the soap dispenser with a basket of water pouring it in until I hear the loud slopping sound of the clothes hitting the water.
My question. Can you add more water to all the newer high efficiency machines and why don't more users do it instead of being disapointed in the washability of the 1,200 dollar units?
Kelly





Post# 127007 , Reply# 1   5/6/2006 at 13:00 (6,536 days old) by bajaespuma (Connecticut)        

bajaespuma's profile picture
If you do it to my LG, it will detect it as an oversudsing incident and run the suds protocal. Why are you adding more water? These machines are designed to wash very well with only the amount of water needed to wet the laundry + a little extra.

On the LG if I want to use more water I choose the Permanent Press Cycle. The delicate cycles use more water also, but they limit tumbling action to a few seconds a cycle. Overall, I think the LG washes better than any machine I've used in the USA.


Post# 127012 , Reply# 2   5/6/2006 at 13:56 (6,536 days old) by mixfinder ()        
More, Sir?

Designed to wash well and turning out a load washed well, is the reason I added more water. As a city dweller the most I need to do in washing is remove wrinkles and little body juice. When my son would visit and he is a mechanic on a ranch, his clothes pretty much looked the same coming out as they did going in. I also washed things like foam bed pillows and bedding and actually had the cycle end with dry spots on the load. More is good, less is bad. The TL has conistently performed, better, for me. I just like dinking around with the Neptunes, in the laundry room, so I can speak lucidly about the machine.
Kelly
Kelly


Post# 127016 , Reply# 3   5/6/2006 at 14:26 (6,536 days old) by peteski50 (New York)        
Water in washer!

peteski50's profile picture
I also have a LG 3677 combo full size machine. It uses little water and everything comes out clean. The spray action improves wash action with only a little water. I am satisified with the unit but I feel you should be able to add more water.
The only thing I don't like is the time it takes to balance a load to spin (sort of wastes a lot of time)
Peter


Post# 127064 , Reply# 4   5/6/2006 at 19:06 (6,536 days old) by mistervain ()        

I definitely support Kelly on this. The frugal water use works fine to remove dirt. It is absolutely ineffective in removing odors. When large loads come out with dry spots, that tells you not enough water is being used. Anyone who disagrees is kidding themselves! The machine's only function is to wash clothes, after all.

A controllable water-level selector ought to be standard on every washing machine.


Post# 127076 , Reply# 5   5/6/2006 at 19:46 (6,536 days old) by sudsmaster (SF Bay Area, California)        

sudsmaster's profile picture
I've never felt the need to add more water to my Neptune 7500.

For large bulky hard-to-wet loads, I will choose a longer wash cycle, or the stain cycle, which adds about 15 minutes to the wash portion. This helps ensure that everything gets thoroughly wetted. On many modern FL's, however, the control panel has been dumbed down so that you never really know how long the wash part of the cycle is taking unless you time it. I suppose too many focus groups told too many washer designers that they don't want to do the "math" involved with selecting a wash time appropriate to a load size, fabric type, and/or soil level. What is supposed to be better "ease of use" turns out to be more lack of control.


Post# 127077 , Reply# 6   5/6/2006 at 19:53 (6,536 days old) by tomturbomatic (Beltsville, MD)        

I use a hose in the detergent dispenser to add water to my Mieles and my Duet. I generally don't add water to the wash because they fill fine for the wash. So does the Creda and it has a "Super Wash" switch that I activate when the wash drains so that the rinses are at higher levels. I know how much to add before they will sense too much water and start the drain pump, but I can get the water up on the vertical part of the window, even in the Duet, not that it is necessary to fill the Duet with that much water for rinsing most loads. Especially in the Winter, I add hot water to the cold only rinses to warm them up to cool at least. The single belt Kenmore Dual Tumble has an adjustable pressure switch so I turned it up. I usually wash on the small load setting and then turn it up to large to rinse. The large setting brings the water up to the light lens in the tub. The small setting fills with more water than the machine's original large setting.

Post# 127096 , Reply# 7   5/6/2006 at 21:07 (6,536 days old) by frigilux (The Minnesota Prairie)        

frigilux's profile picture
Kelly-- I can't help but think there's something wrong with the machine if there are dry spots on comforters (or whatever bedding you mentioned in a prior post)at the end of a wash cycle. I wash a heavy, absorbent queen-size comforter in my FL Frigidaire and the thing is soaking wet a couple of minutes into the cycle. There's no 'drop', as the tub is stuffed very full, but it's definitely saturated and you can see suds squeezing in and out the center of the load.

Post# 127131 , Reply# 8   5/7/2006 at 01:10 (6,536 days old) by rinso (Meridian Idaho)        

Frigilux, my Frigidaire FL machine washed large comforters and other large items flawlessly. I purchased an HE set last year, and exacltly the same loads will barely get wet in the middle during the wash cycle. The lint and pet hair removal are also inferior to my old Frigidaire FL machine. I do realize the importance of conserving water, but the primary purpose of these machines is to wash clothes effectively. I feel the objective is hampered by their stingy use of water.

Post# 127140 , Reply# 9   5/7/2006 at 02:39 (6,536 days old) by brettsomers ()        

ive used the Duet many times. my best friend has one. ive NEVER had a load come out dry in the center. this is only MY experience. we've washed HUGE hamperfulls, and though the cycle is QUITE long, always good results. maybe clothes impregnated with fabric softener dont absorb quickly enough during the fill? these machines continue filling while tumbling to allow the items to soak up water BEFORE the machines senses enough water. maybe if someone uses fabric softener, the clothes dont soak up quickly enough before the machine senses a *full* water level? also, if the items being washer are too bulky, they cant turnover properly and absorb. i would consider this overloaded. my comments apply only to the Duet by Whirlpool. my friend (Kevyn) has washed huge overstuffed loads with jeans tshirts and socks, machine filled to capacity, and always acceptable results. my cynical side wonders if the the vintage devotees/FL skeptics are simply prejudiced against the new technology?

Post# 127143 , Reply# 10   5/7/2006 at 03:26 (6,536 days old) by brettsomers ()        
PS

i will agree, for heavily soiled loads, the machine simply MUST be able to heat the wash water. the ratio of water to clothes is such that the clothes cool the water. all water-thrifty FLs should have a heater.

Post# 127150 , Reply# 11   5/7/2006 at 07:29 (6,536 days old) by bearpeter ()        
adding water!

I recently added a further 10 litres to the final rinse of a load of towels in my AEG. Problem is the drum physically dops when there is a heavy amount of water in it. I just worry that because the machines are manufactured with very little water useage in mind that the suspension is not capable of taking this extra weight in the drum?
Maybe I am being a little too cautious...


Post# 127158 , Reply# 12   5/7/2006 at 07:45 (6,535 days old) by lavamat_jon (UK)        
Bearpeter

Well this is the fill level for some rinses on my AEG (which has the Zanussi style drum assembly) and I haven't had any problem yet with the suspension failing! The water level actually gets higher than this - halfway up the drum - on big 6 kilo loads, and on the final rinses for Delicates, Easy Iron, Silk, Fashion, and Woollens Handwash

Jon


Post# 127172 , Reply# 13   5/7/2006 at 08:58 (6,535 days old) by mixfinder ()        
Skeptic Top Loader

I am far from prejudiced and willingly "wash around". I have no opinion, other than sharing what my experiences have been in Neptune, Coin-OP front loaders. My questions was simple, would washing performance increase with more water? I do not have the liberty of extending or altering cycle time or options, since it is a coin op.

I am predjudiced against washing machines that don't let the operator watch. I am ragingly, fixately, mental about the annoying noise of the agitator in the Whirlpool/Kenmore toploader, one of which I have, at this time, inside my condo.

I am also manically prejudiced against Sears, as an entity, for being the icon where poor people shopped when I was kid, for the way I was treated as a high school employee in DECA, for their deceptive credit practices, inflated repair charges and being listest in the top 10 of homophobic companies in America.

Even, prejudice would not keep me from trying a machine or washine system to see the quality of wash it predjudiced. I sort by color, weight and soil, pretreat, presoak and double rinse in needed. I am Laundry Man!

I learned to sort laundry by weight after using a Maytag 808 for 22 years. That way everything is dry at once and the dainties aren't tortured while waiting for the towels to dry.

Kelly


Post# 127175 , Reply# 14   5/7/2006 at 09:12 (6,535 days old) by lavamat_jon (UK)        

Well, low water levels are actually better at washing than deeper water levels for most laundry loads as the tumbling action is used better. Larger amounts of water in the wash cycle can hamper the tumbling action and therefore bring about a less vigorous tumbling action - and this the primary reason why the more delicate cycles on frontloaders fill up with more water, so as to cushion the tumbling action. Deep water washes do, however, have their advantages when washing bulkier items such as duvets, and as I just mentioned are better for washing more delicate items so as more delicate items can float through the water rather than be tumbled and dropped into a small pool at the bottom of the drum.

The amount of water in the rinses, on the other hand, I feel is ultimately important. Although low levels work well on my Miele because of the high speed interim spins, I find that the low levels on my AEG and Bosch machines really do push the limits. The AEG isn't so bad as it has a Sensitive button which delivers high level rinses like the one in the picture I just posted, but the Bosch only utilises low level rinses in the Cottons cycles and the rinsing is absolutely dire - plus most laundry put through the Bosch is still left covered in lint & dog hair at the end of the cycle. (Thank god mum's Bosch has died, and that it'll be replaced soon).

Jon


Post# 127181 , Reply# 15   5/7/2006 at 09:44 (6,535 days old) by tomturbomatic (Beltsville, MD)        

Kelly, I don't think that you are prejudiced. A repair tech friend watched an LG for a while after it was started. Five minutes into the wash cycle there were still dry patches in the load, so it can happen. Manufacturers are struggling to beat each other in the race to use the least water to impress the bureaucrats who give energy efficiency ratings to appliances, but don't care about performance. Up until last year, they tested dishwashers for energy efficiency with clean dishes, so it was not how well they washed or rinsed. That's why you have dishwashers that give only one rinse after the main wash in come cases. If you like top loaders and either use a suds saver system or drain the wash water from one machine to a second and start a second load, you are essentially cutting your wash water use in half. If your large capacity Maytag fills with 18 or 19 gallons of hot or warm water for the wash and you use it a second time with a bit more detergent added, you have cut your wash water consumption to 9 or 10 gallons, which begins to get very economical for a full tub of clothes. My KA top loader uses a few more gallons for the highest fill because I adjusted the water level switch and it holds a significantly large load than my A806, but if I reuse that water, I have washed a huge load in maybe 11 or 12 gallons of water. There are lots of ways to economize without giving up your favorite method of washing clothes.

In these new machines which only rinse in cold water, it is true that you might not see suds in the last rinse because cold water does suppress suds. If you put the load through a warm rinse, you usually will see suds, although there are many variable factors.

Jon, that picture of your AEG rinse water level, for which we thank you very much, is what I can achieve by adding water to the rinses on the cottons cycle on my W1986, but with its 1000 rpm spins after every drain and the 1200 rpm final spin, there is never enough detergent residue in the laundry to cause any kind of skin irritation even if I don't add the extra water to the rinses on normal size loads.


Post# 127184 , Reply# 16   5/7/2006 at 09:58 (6,535 days old) by lavamat_jon (UK)        

Hi Tom,

My Miele can also fill high up the window - in fact I do have it set that way at the moment (I washed a duvet a couple of weeks ago, and haven't had chance to turn off the higher water level programmable function yet). The only thing I've noticed is that the higher rinses do wash out any remaining smell from detergents such as Bold which are heavily scented, of which you can only slightly smell anyway after the high level rinses on the Miele. However, laundry still smells heavily of Bold after 4 low water level rinses in the Bosch... so it just goes to show :-)

Take care,

Jon


Post# 127185 , Reply# 17   5/7/2006 at 10:02 (6,535 days old) by nickuk (chelmsford UK)        
Hey Jon

Did the Bosch actually die or did you put it down? :-) Remember what I did when I was a kid LOL

What'll you replace it with? I've heard the new Servis is s**t hot.


Post# 127192 , Reply# 18   5/7/2006 at 11:17 (6,535 days old) by mixfinder ()        
Knurled Knob

Turbo!!
I discovered the white knurled knob under the buttons for water level in 1972. I adjusted my Maytags and those of my friends, to fill completely.
In the 60's Kenmore began to have washers fill to just above the ramp on the agitator. I would hold the water level selector on resert until those models filled.
I always wondered if Kenmore, Maytag and other manufacteres began that practice to:
1. Appear more eco friendly, even though that wasn't a focus then.
2. Extra insurance against over filling and a hedge against liability.
3. More stress on the motor and transmission so the washer would wear out sooner.

Kelly


Post# 127199 , Reply# 19   5/7/2006 at 12:07 (6,535 days old) by frigilux (The Minnesota Prairie)        

frigilux's profile picture
rinso--- I guess this is why many of the newest machines have 'Bulky' cycles that add extra water when washing comforters, etc. My 2003 FL Frigidaire isn't as stingy with water as a new Hettie4 (and some others), but it also uses less water per fill than my old WCI-era FL Gibson/Westinghouse. I embrace appliances that use less water/energy, but if it gets to the point (and apparantly it has) that cleaning is compromised, then we've taken water conservation in washers as far as we can.

As I get 'washer fever' every few years, I keep thinking I should invest in one of the newest FL models from Whirlpool, GE, LG, Maytag or Frigidaire (all of which are available in or near my tiny village). With the gripes I keep reading here concerning compromised cleaning and cycle length issues (usually due to long pre-spin balancing acts), I think I'll hang on to my '03!

By the way, with which brand did you replace your old FL Frigidaire pair?



Post# 127206 , Reply# 20   5/7/2006 at 13:15 (6,535 days old) by mistervain ()        
Jon

It appears that consumers are offered machines that fill with an acceptable amount of water outside the US, based upon photos I have seen posted here.

The photo you showed is something that I have NEVER seen on a recent, domestic front loader here -- usually they fill with enough water only to get the clothes wet. You will never see a water level in the window.

So here in the US, we have 2 options: a top loader which uses too much water, and a front loader with not enough. There needs to be a happy medium offered somewhere.


Post# 127208 , Reply# 21   5/7/2006 at 13:22 (6,535 days old) by lavamat_jon (UK)        

Well, there's always the Miele's :-P. Even though the manuals skimp over the programmable functions, the same programmable functions that work on the European and Australian models work on the US Touchtronics, so you can mod the Sensitive button as it's called on the US Touchtronics to deliver not just an extra rinse, but a high level rinse too :-).

The standard rinse level on the AEG is just so it touches the door, but that level is achieved by pressing the Sensitive button.

Take care,

Jon


Post# 127209 , Reply# 22   5/7/2006 at 13:28 (6,535 days old) by lavamat_jon (UK)        
Nick

Yes, the Bosch actually died, and at a point where I wish it didn't. It still works *so he says*, but you can't use the extra rinse cycle as it likes to get stuck on the extra rinse, and also it attempts to spin then just aborts. On top of that bearings are wearing out, door sometimes takes ages to unlock, makes horrible grinding sort of noises, struggles to go up to spin (when it actually does spin), has never flushed powder down properly, drain pump is getting weak etc etc it is getting beyond economical repair. Seeming as we bought it for £350 just over 3 years ago, and it has been put through 15 loads or so per week plus was shoved around quite carelessly by the builders when we were having the renovations done, I think it's safe to say we've got our money's worth out of it, and it has a place in appliance heaven, god rest it's soul. (If only the bugger had rinsed properly!!! LOL).

Mum and I are looking at a Miele to go downstairs, probably one of the new W1000 models, also been looking at AEG's as a cheaper option. Not really a priority at the moment though, as mum is busy studying for her degree, plus my nana and my dad have both been in hospital over the last week so the washer has been the last thing on all of our minds, and have just been churning laundry through in the Miele up here :-).

Take care,

Jon


Post# 127212 , Reply# 23   5/7/2006 at 13:56 (6,535 days old) by nickuk (chelmsford UK)        
Troubled times

I hope that things are OK with your Nana and your Dad Jon.

Post# 127225 , Reply# 24   5/7/2006 at 15:02 (6,535 days old) by mistervain ()        
Miele

I have looked at the USA Miele website, but I'm suspicious as it proudly advertises using as little as 8 gallons per cycle....this is definitely what I DON'T want!

I would be interested in Miele, but only if I could be assured that it could be reprogrammed to offer high water levels on both the wash and rinse cycle.


Post# 127226 , Reply# 25   5/7/2006 at 15:13 (6,535 days old) by lavamat_jon (UK)        

You can! :-). Several people over on THS have successfully managed to pimp their Touchtronics :-).

Jon


Post# 127228 , Reply# 26   5/7/2006 at 15:30 (6,535 days old) by bajaespuma (Connecticut)        

bajaespuma's profile picture
Their are definitely dry spots in a very large load on my LG at the end of the prewash cycle. I've gotten around this by starting the cycle with the Permanent Press WASH cycle, interrupting the machine and then setting it to a full cycle starting with PREWASH. The machine drains the tub to a preset level, but by then the load is completely wet. I've found after a couple of years I tend to use the Permanent Press cycle more than the Normal. I know we have very soft water down here on the CT shoreline; maybe that makes a difference but I always have clean laundry. Nothing works on heavily stained laundry than the FL program of cold prewash, wash, several rinses and a fast spin. You can't beat it. It was interesting to note, at least on the LG that the most heavy duty cycle, COTTONS AND LINENS, the water level is at its lowest and the tumble interval is greatest. With less water in the tub to buffer the fabrics, there is more "action" on them. As long as the fabrics are totally wet, they're going to release soil.

Post# 127230 , Reply# 27   5/7/2006 at 16:28 (6,535 days old) by bpetersxx (laf in on the banks of the Wabash River)        

bpetersxx's profile picture
place this link in a browser

www.putfile.com/bpetersxx...


My Haier front loader videos are in my folder in putfile

currently seeing if I can raise the water level in the FrankenHaier


CLICK HERE TO GO TO bpetersxx's LINK


Post# 127232 , Reply# 28   5/7/2006 at 16:40 (6,535 days old) by panthera (Rocky Mountains)        
European vs US water levels

panthera's profile picture
After hotly defending the level used here in Germany in LGs I have since heard from many folks that they don't use nearly the same amount in the 'States. Since they are considered very efficient here, I am not surprised to hear that so many folks are unhappy about that.
Almost all modern washers can be adjusted - either electronically or on the mechanical level sensor - to use enough water to get the job done.
The question is, though - why should you have too? We are talking about serious money here.
I am especially curious about reprogramming Miele - can anyone describe the process in more detail? To reprogram mine involves a very expensive service call - and since it has always worked perfectly, I have never been tempted.


Post# 127247 , Reply# 29   5/7/2006 at 18:33 (6,535 days old) by mistervain ()        

I would also like more detail on reprogramming Miele, is this only available on certain models, etc? And how much are the services calls?

Post# 127261 , Reply# 30   5/7/2006 at 19:24 (6,535 days old) by brisnat81 (Brisbane Australia)        
AU Manual

Follow the link below and go to page 56 - Water Plus Functions

This whole section on programmable functions explains how to get into the configuration mode on the AU Mieles.

You'll need to look at the control panel layout on the AU machine and compare the button positions with the US machines as the labels are different.

Please note that any settings you change, you do so at your own risk.


CLICK HERE TO GO TO brisnat81's LINK


Post# 127293 , Reply# 31   5/7/2006 at 23:20 (6,535 days old) by mistervain ()        

Interesting. Hopefully the US versions are adjustable as well, though it wouldn't surprise me one bit if the Energy Star police ruined it for us Americans.

Post# 127295 , Reply# 32   5/7/2006 at 23:29 (6,535 days old) by brisnat81 (Brisbane Australia)        

From what I've read in THS the functionality is there, you just have to explore the programable functions to find it.

When the High level wash and rinse is engaged you get water up to the curved part of the door. This is about 2-3 inches above the boot.

I found with the high level for wash, that things didnt come as clean and the additional time required to heat the extra water was a pain. However I'm now very happy with standard water levels and Water Plus is set to give an additional rinse at standard levels.


Post# 127297 , Reply# 33   5/7/2006 at 23:36 (6,535 days old) by brettsomers ()        

seems like most of the complaints are about LGs?

Post# 127306 , Reply# 34   5/8/2006 at 00:20 (6,535 days old) by mistervain ()        

How much would one of the Mieles run in American dollars?

Post# 127310 , Reply# 35   5/8/2006 at 00:30 (6,535 days old) by rinso (Meridian Idaho)        

Frigilux: I replaced my 2000 Frigidaire pair with 2005 Kenmore Elite HE3's. They are great looking, and convenient to use, and are able to easily hold a queen comforter, but not wash (or dry) it all that well. My HE3 does do a good job of stain removal by virtue of its high concentration of laundry additives to its small amount of water. However, when it comes to really purging the laundry of sand, dirt, lint, pet hair, and other more solid soils, it fails miserably, especially when compared with my Frigidaire. If you have cats like we do, you'll need lots of sticky roller tape with the HE3s.

Post# 127312 , Reply# 36   5/8/2006 at 00:40 (6,535 days old) by irishwashguy (Salem,Oregon.............A Capital City)        
That looks just like my T-1213

irishwashguy's profile picture
That machine is exactly like mine!! I have looked on the UK website and never saw like it.I never thought to look on the AU site. I personally have never had any complaints as far as the water levels are concerned, it always does a fine job, however, on some programs, you can choose a "sensative"---or in other words "water plus" option, and others you cannot. I like having the extra rinses. I find myself using the "costom option" whch is what I wish that i could do on more of the programs. I wash alot of sheets for my side business and like the Sanitize option, but the spin speeds are to fast for sheets. It is also nice to have an internal water heater;I am always amazed at the stuff that you can see when they come out of the dryer that you are not wearing, namely dirt. . You do not see that on very many US made front loaders. I have also had the Maytag neptunes home version.When I had a roomate who overloaded it. he also had dry spots on his clothes. I was told that the rule of thumb with a Maytag Neptune was when the machine was full, i should still be able to touch the back of the drum with my hand. If I could not, i should take out some laundry. Comercial Neptunes I am asuming can have the water usage can be programed in to be stingy.It would make perfect sence in Seattle, my second home.

Post# 127324 , Reply# 37   5/8/2006 at 02:27 (6,535 days old) by launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        

launderess's profile picture
Miele washers start at around 1300 USD give or take a few hundred. They can be found sometimes on Craigslist or eBay for less, but unless the units are local shipping is a bear because Miele's are HEAVY. Also you have to reinsert the shipping braces, and not all owners keep them after install.

L.


Post# 127343 , Reply# 38   5/8/2006 at 07:52 (6,534 days old) by frigilux (The Minnesota Prairie)        

frigilux's profile picture
rinso-- Thanks for the info! The more I hear about the newest FL'ers, the more I'm convinced I'll stick with my '03 Frigidaire until it gives up the ghost. The first generation '96 Frigi/Lux I used to have is still going strong, now servicing a 3-apt. building. Hope my '03 proves to be that reliable!

Post# 127369 , Reply# 39   5/8/2006 at 10:24 (6,534 days old) by customcadillac ()        
Not to inflame Kelly, but...

We have a Kenmore Elite E3 and I have to say we love the damned thing. We bought it at the dreaded Sears due in part to their zero percent financing thing. Yes, it was hugely over-priced at $1,500 (including the stand - which I would not do without), but having been in the banking biz, I saw the built-in "catch" in the zero-percent financing deal and we had it fully paid before the outrageous finance charges kicked in at precisely one second past the 365th day. Kelly is correct in saying Sear's finacing arm is a bunch of devious thieves - but if you recognize their tricks ahead of time, you can outsmart them. They're far too dependent upon their assumption that all consumers are "too stupid" to know the details, so you can beat then at their own game if you understand the financing thing at the get-go.

Why do we love our washer? Limited water usage was the big reason for purchase. We live in a rual area and our household water comes from a well. After two years of drought we had valid concerns for the health and well being of our well's ability to continue to supply water. Our old TL was a contractor-grade Hotpoint cheapie, whose variance between "high" and "low" water levels might have been about 1/2 cup of water - it used 48 U.S. gallons of water per load - stated as being about 15 pounds of clothing. The HE3 takes up to 20 pounds and uses a max of 15 gallons. So far (after about 3 years), our reaction has been "that thing gets out everything" in terms of soiled laundry.

I agree that the preset controls for water levels, etc. is not terrific, but seems to get the job done. I've managed to fool the fairly impressive fuzzy-logic controls by stopping a wash cycle; switching to rinse/spin; stopping that before it starts its drain cycle; then firing up a new wash cycle - this has been a reasonably successful method for getting extra water into the wash cycle - not flawless, as sometimes it will recognize that there's water in the tub and drain it - but it has worked with a fair amount of regularity. The adaptive, "fuzzy" logic can't always be predicted as it is constantly changing its own behavior.

I once watched the fuzzy logic struggle for 20 minutes trying to balance a load, pre-spin, that included a rubber bathmat. It tossed that load back and forth and aborted about six spins before I gave in, stopped the machine and hauled the bathmat out - sudenly, all was well - it could balance the remaining load and dutifully went into its insanely fast spin - highest speed looks like it could warp time into the past. I fear if I spun woolens at that speed, I'd find a machine full of wet, seriously angry sheep.

The plus on having the stand is it's large, seamless plastic drawer- in trying to fool the logic, on occasion you have to cancel the entire program to get the door to unlock. If this happens when water-level is bove the door, the open drawer handily catches the overflow of water.

We did not buy the matching HE3 dryer - ridiculously priced at $1,000. At the time the crummy Hotpoint dryer was still working - it died about a year later and was replaced with a Whirlpool from the local dealer who misquoted the price on a closeout model inadvertently giving us about $300 off the "correct" price - bought it on the spot. It was a gas model and the gas company charged us 10 cents more than the purchase price (had to be converted from natural gas to LP gas) to install it, but it's all good in the end.


Post# 127372 , Reply# 40   5/8/2006 at 10:34 (6,534 days old) by designgeek ()        

All this about inflexible water levels is just another ramification of *too much computer control* to make things that *idiots can use* but that drive anyone with brains raving mad.

As for "can't get the stink out of sweaty clothes," the computer-control enthusiasts are working on that issue, and when they're done, the Smellotronic Washer will be released to the public. This will come with an automatic Snifferator that can tell when your sweaty clothes are clean enough (even if you can't tell the difference!).

What really makes sense is to just go back to the old mechanical controls as far as possible, and then have two water controls, one for wash and one for rinse, so you can adjust each separately. A little less water for wash, a little more for rinse, for example.

My preferred version of a FL would have basically manual controls. (Uh oh, heresy department!).

The Wash section would have a knob with three settings, Gentle, Normal, Strong. Next to that, a time selector, 0 - 15 minutes. Next to that, a water selector marked arbitrarily 0 - 10, and a water temp selector marked from cold to 200 degrees. Finally a Start button. The Rinse section would basically duplicate the Wash section but you could set up different times and water levels and temps, and agitation strength. The point of this is so you don't have to fiddle with the controls on the Wash section when you want to rinse. The Spin section would have a 3-position selector: 600, 900, 1100 rpm, and a timer 0 - 5 minutes, and a Start button. The only concessions to electronics would be a temperature indicator and a water meter that would show gallons or litres from the time you closed the door to the time you opened it (i.e. for the full cycle), and a power meter showing KWH used for the entire process (down to hundredths).

You load your laundry & detergent into the machine, set up the controls as needed, and press the Start button on Wash. It fills, heats, agitates, and then when done, drains and stops. Next you press Start on the Spin section, perhaps set to 900 rpm for 2 minutes. It does its thing and then stops. Next you press Start on the Rinse section, and it follows the settings you've dialed in, and does its thing and then stops. Press Spin again. Press Rinse again. Repeat until you don't see suds in the rinse water. Then change the Spin settings for final spin, perhaps 1100 rpm for the full 5 minutes, and press Start.

Yes, it means you have to stick around and go into the laundry room and press a button every five to fifteen minutes. For most of us here that wouldn't be a problem because we're watching the washer anyway. And I'll bet that a machine like this could be used off-grid in houses running on solar (turn off the water heater) and would be highly efficient in terms of electricity consumption.

I suspect that having the water and power meters on there will encourage people to tweak their cycles to optimize efficiency without compromising cleaning, i.e. "how little water and power can I use while still doing the job effectively?" That's been the experience with automobiles whenever MPG indicators are fitted: people subtly change their driving habits so they still get where they're going on time but don't use as much gas to get there. Best of both worlds.

Question is, if one wanted to build something like this "from scratch" by hacking an existing FL, what machines would be suitable for hacking this way (both new and vintage machines)?


Post# 127380 , Reply# 41   5/8/2006 at 11:10 (6,534 days old) by mixfinder ()        
Converts!

It begs the question. I read and reread posts from US washing machine users who grew up on top loading washers. A majority of posts are like trying to convince ourselves to go to hell in an effort to begin looking forward to the trip. Few simply say, OMG, I love this machine and it is 2,000 times superior to anything I ever used before! The posts from US users read more like a lament and a speil to sell homeland security. If you say it long enough you might begin to believe it has merit and in some small way it is good for you. Front load machines are good for manufacturing and the reduction of water used per load. They are not always good for creating sparkling clean laundry. I am one US washing machine enthusiast who loves a good front load show, but wants a top loader to soak, wash, and rinse my amazing wardrobe to a dazzling result.
How can I be Laundry Man, if I can't remove the stains of the world!
My front load friends soak in buckets and sinks and slop stuff around in their belief and devotion to being a good environmentalist, not because they are thrilled with the results.
Kelly


Post# 127386 , Reply# 42   5/8/2006 at 11:52 (6,534 days old) by lavamat_jon (UK)        

They are not always good for creating sparkling clean laundry

Well, I myself and everybody I know over here in the UK get sparkling clean laundry out of our frontloaders without any pretreating! FWIW, the toploading coinop Maytag I used didn't wash anywhere as near as well as my frontloaders with the same amount of detergent and no pre soaking. Although I must admit, the Speed Queen toploaders I have used were certainly impressive.

Jon


Post# 127390 , Reply# 43   5/8/2006 at 12:13 (6,534 days old) by mixfinder ()        
Consistent Reply

I sense that we are not comparing apples with apples in American front loaders and those from Europe. In the US we have not had the experience of on board water heaters. My questions and responses and insightare based on the personal use and comparison of US models. It is very interesting to see the difference in the FL machines from here and across the water.
Kelly


Post# 127391 , Reply# 44   5/8/2006 at 12:14 (6,534 days old) by brettsomers ()        

there ARE a lot of people very happy with their front loaders. if the Duet can get my friends HUGE loads clean, there must be something happening correctly.

Post# 127400 , Reply# 45   5/8/2006 at 12:45 (6,534 days old) by frigilux (The Minnesota Prairie)        

frigilux's profile picture
I've certainly been happy with my Frigidaire. I never pretreat stains, I never use a pre-wash or an extra rinse. I get excellent results with highly stained loads of kitchen whites using temp-controlled cold water, powdered (not liquid) Tide Cold Water and liquid chlorine bleach. If it's a BobLoad, I'll sometimes add an extra 10 minutes to the wash time. Designgeek, I'm with you---I'd rather see mechanical timers which are easy for the user to manipulate if desired.

Again, the more I take into consideration all the changes I've seen in FL'ers the past couple of years, I'm hanging onto my old school '03 FL'er. Even if it doesn't have a huge tub and riser platforms and computerized controls. Frankly, I'm glad it doesn't have oversudsing sensors and a 10-minute balancing act before it spins.


Post# 127416 , Reply# 46   5/8/2006 at 13:47 (6,534 days old) by mixfinder ()        
Complete Bliss

A zillion thank yous to all how posted, for your combined input. I am thrilled to have learned so much about the function and personalities of machines I may never have the opportunity to use.
At the end of the wash day, it really is all about me and you and the machine with which we are satisfied and fulfilled. The really fun part is: Time and technology make that a moving target.
The thrill of the hunt.


Post# 127525 , Reply# 47   5/9/2006 at 07:16 (6,534 days old) by designgeek ()        

Jon, re. Maytag TL: "same amount of detergent" as you use in the FL, is the problem there. More water requires more detergent to maintain the same concentration of detergent in the water. So you have to increase the detergent dose, and then you'll get equivalent results.

(Conversely anyone who tries putting a TL dose into an FL will be treated to a suds overflow and a clean floor as a side-effect:-)


Post# 127544 , Reply# 48   5/9/2006 at 10:03 (6,533 days old) by lavamat_jon (UK)        

True. Still, the Speed Queen toploaders that I used a year before (same holiday destination, just used a different launderette) managed to clean what seemed a larger load with a standard frontload dose of detergent. Have to say the Maytag DC coinops seemed to leave lint all over the load too, whereas clothes out of the Speed Queen were lint free, and actually quite well cleaned and rinsed too.

Jon



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